BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?

Subject: BS: too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 03:16 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The ruling Hamas group will not join the planned coalition government with the rival Fatah party if recognizing Israel is a condition, a close aide to Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas said Friday.

At the United Nations on Thursday, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah said the coalition government would recognize Israel.

But Haniyeh's political adviser, Ahmed Yousef, told The Associated Press that "there won't be a national unity government if Hamas is asked to recognize Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: too much to ask?
From: skipy
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 03:43 AM

Before you start yet another pointless argument "get a name or go away"
SKIPY

Subject: RE: BS: too much to ask?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:23 AM

Happy New Year to you too Guest. Rosh Hashanah
G

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 01:58 AM

Alternatively, you guys could either join or ignore the discussion. If somebody wants to discuss the issue, they will. If not, let the thread die.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 04:53 PM

Gee, skipy. That's rich coming from you.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 01:35 PM

Maybe Israel's wearing sunglasses.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:42 PM

The Palestinians are quite right not to recognise Israel which was founded as a state on stolen Palestinian land...the Palestinians have been exiled,oppressed and tormented ever since the founding of Israel in 1948 ,yet they are being continually told by Israel and its backers to recognise Israel.What about recognising the rights of the Palestinians to live on their own land and in their own country free from being bombed,surrounded by a monstrous apartheid wall,imprisoned by checkpoints and bombed and shelled on an almost daily basis?The people of Gaza are being shelled and starved now!
Free Palestine from a vicious and highly milatarised Israel which does appear to set any limits to its own borders.And let Israel get out of the Jordan valley which it is busy stealing from the Palestinian farmers who have been there for many,many generations.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:43 PM

Hey, Hugo. Hear the latest? Mohammed was gay.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM

For Hugo.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:51 PM

Geez, hugo. Seems you have a short memory, historically speaking. Seems like the Jews have lived on this same land for millenia. Now, I am not a big fan of a lot of the Israeli tactics, but it seems ludicrous to not take a very militant stance against people that believe a second Holocaust would be a good thing. And if I recall correctly, at the founding of Israel, anyone who agreed to live in peace was allowed to stay and be a part of Israel, not losing their land. Am I wrong on this?

Peace will never come to this land, as long as bigots like you exist.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 04:13 PM

hugo ... we've heard your rant before here at the Cat.

As Mick stated and it says it all, ..... "Peace will never come to this land, as long as bigots like you exist."

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:15 AM

Both Jew and Arabs have occupied that territory for a millenia. Perhaps the question should be which group formed a majority and occupied that land for the longest period of time.

Jews may have claimed it but they weren't able to hold on to it for very long. 600 years during the reign of Solomon is not much of a claim when you look at how long Arabs have occupied that land.

What was the longest period of time Jews were the rulers in what is now Israel and Palestine?

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:40 AM

At the start of the 20th century the Jewish population of Palestine was very small......less than 10 percent of the total population.
They had lived in peace alongside their Palestinian christian and muslim neighbours for hundreds of years.
The advocates of zionism in the late 19th century and such events as the Balfour Declaration poisoned this relationship and set the course for the eventual expulsion of the Palestinians from their homes,farms ,villages,towns and cities....a situation they have never accepted. Still they are being bombed,harassed,oppressed and imprisoned for the crime of wanting to get out from under the zionist yoke.
Israel has been backed financially and militarily by the US and the major western poers.It has one of the most powerful armies in the world.
The Palestinians have been pounded and pulverised in the West Bank and in Gaza and dozens of their elected leaders are now in prison....but still they rise.
HUGO

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 08:40 AM

cut, past, rant, repeat...

And NEVER answer any specific questions, or even the general matter in hand.

Yes, you too can be your own HUGO. All you need is a good selective memory for the facts, a bucket of random punctuation to scatter throughout your posts, and a really well bigoted outlook.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:57 AM

I rather back UNSCR 242 than hugo's stance.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM

I answered the question that was asked at the start of this thread.

It seems to me that the zionists and their supporters simply do not value the lives of the Palestinian people in the slightest.

We have seen the casual and vicious racism of the Israeli military and the zionist settlers on a daily basis. They have smashed up, Gaza murdering and wounding hundreds of children and literally starving the rest.Malnutrion is the common experience of Palestinian children who have had their homes,clinics and hospitals destroyed.

Their schools have been reduced to rubble and jet planes scream low overhead on many occasions. Even Palestinian children playing on the Gaza beach have been blown to bits by Israeli shells fired from warships.

I support the Palestinian people's right to be free while the zionists want to scatter them , reduce them to a kind of modern serfdom ,force them to live in bantustans and reduce them to pauperism.
Free Palestine!
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM

"Even Palestinian children playing on the Gaza beach have been blown to bits by Israeli shells fired from warships."

Sorry, hugo old chum, that was a Palestinian rocket that had misfired. Do try and get your propaganda straight.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 01:10 PM

hugo, you see only your agenda. I support the Palestinians in their quest for a homeland. No one has any more right to a home state than they. They have co-inhabited this land for millennia with the Jews. But let's not play the Palestinians and their supporters as some kind of selfless heroes here. They store munitions and weapons in population centers, setting up martyrs and then staging mass organizations decrying their death. They send suicide bombers into innocent civilian places who are just children themselves.

This entire situation is a tragedy of the first order. "another eye and another eye, 'til everyone is blind". These folks need to listen to Gerry Adams as he attempts to use the experience of the North of Ireland to break the cycle of violence. This will only happen when the parties acknowledge each others right to exist, and forsake the gun.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:35 PM

This situation with Hamas outlines the obvious, that since The State of Israel was founded the surrounding Arab countries for the most part have refused to recongnize it's right even to exist - (except for Egypt and Jordon once bitter enemies and who are now on fairly friendly terms). By refusing recognition - you refuse peace obviously - and by doing so is there any wonder that the ravages of war and misery is what to expect next. No other counrty in the world would be in peace talks with another who refused to recongize the others very existance! With Hamas in control, they don't have any chance of peace. The Palestinians have been keeping this issue festering for so long and I think purposely not embracing peace offers so that new generations have lost complete hope and have become totally brainwsahed with it's own militant mentality. No other place on earth would put up with a litanny of suicide killers and constant shelling of rockets into civilian areas. Hamas means business - to eradicate Israel and all the Jews living there- and if they had a good chance to pull it off they would.
Bigots talk about Zionists as if they were Nazis murderes or worse, which is an obvious smoke screen for their hatred of Jews. Zionists can live in peace with their Arab neighbors and friends, but it appears that Hamas and the Palestinians won't give it a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:56 PM

No Mick...I answered the question that was asked and it is difficult in only a few short sentences to go into all the rights and wrongs and possibilities of what is happening and what has happened in Palestine/Israel.

Of course the Palestinians have been poorly led. Generations of their leaders have been exiled,killed,assassinated , imprisoned or bought off with worthless promises or a few baubles.

However,the Palestinian people have time and time again refused to be consigned ino the dustbin of history and have literally fought with stones and sticks to oppose those who have come with armoured bulldozers and tanks to steal their land,demolish their homes by the thousands,uproot their orchards and grab their water.

At the moment the whole of the Jordan valley in the West Bank is actually be stolen from the Palestinian farmers who have owned it for generations.The Jordan valley is not part of Israel but is being taken over by zionist armed settlers with the full backing of Israeli law.
When the children of Palestine fought in the two intifada uprisings with stones and sticks they were shot down by sniper and rifle fire.They were beaten up by soldier's rifle butts and imprisoned in large numbers.Israeli soldiers were ordered to break the limbs of these kids and did so as a matter of course and were captured on camera.Their schools were attacked and kids shot dead at their lessons.Universities closed down ,health clinics ransacked and Israeli soldiers soiled their homes with faeces and piss.This is what has been happening. Of course people across the world have taken sides.

On one side we see mightiest army in the region fully backed by the USA while on the other side we see a people fighting to the death for the historic right to their land and for the basic right to be free.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 03:09 PM

GUEST hugo, do you accept that the Israelis as well as the Palestinians have a right to a homeland?

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 03:18 PM

The problem with your explanations is that they don't go back far enough. Your own post above only went to the start of the 20th century. These peoples have lived in the same geographic area for thousands of years. Neither has more of a claim to a right of a homeland than the other. Much of the Palestinian plight was created by their own actions, a fact which leads many of the neighboring Moslem States to disown them and keep them in camps. Your "children of Palestine" talk shows that you use propaganda speak instead of getting to the heart of it. The Palestinian terrorists refuse to accept the right of Israel to exist. They speak in terms of killing all Jews and driving them into the seas. What this means is that they eschew any idea of negotiated settlement and will settle for nothing less than the destruction of the Jews. Survival 101 says that if the choice is live or die, one must choose to live. In the case of the Israeli's, they have said that as long as someone is out there dedicated to their destruction, they will use every means at their disposal to survive.

I ask you a question. If this is such a holy cause, and if the Palestinians are such noble, Islamic heroes, being beaten only because the Israeli's have better weaponry being provided by the USA, then why aren't Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iran, and all the other Islamic nations arming these Palestinians? Why aren't they levelling the playing field.

This is a thorny political issue. I ache for the generations of lost Palestinian youth. But the way isn't someone like you, hugo. You are blind to how this will end in any way but a sad way. Time for the gun to go. Time for the political process to pave the way. Time for Hamas to simply agree that Israel has a right to exist. Then listen to the Gerry Adams of the world. The children of the Palestinians and Israelis deserve this.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 04:47 PM

It's not the least bit hard to recognize something as obvious as Israel...

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:47 PM

What happened to the $300,000,000 of Palestinian money that Arafat had?

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: number 6
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:10 PM

Some of it was used to fund his wife's lush, extravagant lifestyle that she lived in Paris. Apparently 6M Euros was deposited in the family's private bank account there over a period of time.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:20 PM

Sounds like he had a little in common with Conrad Black, then. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 12:14 PM

While you ache for the Palestinian youth they are being murdered ,bullied ,beaten and terrorised.They have been imprisoned in large numbers often without trial.They have been expelled from their homes by thugs in IDF uniform and zionist thugs in civilian clothes.
Time indeed for the gun to go but it is being fired by the Israeli military along with missiles,rubber bullets,artillery shells ,cluster bombs and bunker bustin'bombs.
And standing behind Israel is the USA which has armed and funded Israel for Big Oil for the past 50 years or so.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 12:48 PM

Interesting tactic there, hugo. Just continue on with the demagogic statements, but answer none of my assertions. Not sure, but it seems you have no answers that have to do with substance, or that don't fit into your neat package. Fair enough. Retreat to slogans, and let others be about the work of finding a way out of this deathmatch.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:11 PM

The problem is that you are confusing desire for homeland with desire to maintain property, actual physical property that grew oranges, olives, goats, whatever, that was in your family, that you had deeds to. That is a pretty major conflict that I can only see rightously going to the current property owners with deeds to the land. Just because you want a historical homeland, and many people do and the world is full of exiles, you can't just take it back after generations have passed..hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years back. You and I, Mr. Mick, can not talk about how our people were forced out of Ireland by famines and clearances etc. and go and take our ancestral lands back, much as we might want to. Lots of other examples to be thought of. And we acknowledge that we are on Native American lands..I am on Chinook lands. We can't restore old wrongs here and there without totally upturning the world. There have been terrible injustices done to the Palestinians regarding their lands. We have to look at that squarely. mg

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:13 PM

Oil? From ISRAEL????????


Get out of the sun, NOW!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:17 PM

Hmmmm, thought for the day:

Do we think the Gulf states would be freindlier towards the US, and the West in general if we (the west) had not supported the existence of Israel?
If we hadn't then Israel would have ceased to exist some decades ago, and so the confict which has been the source of the rabid Anti-Americanism of that area would also have ceased. Would it be cheaper, easier and safer for big oil to operate in countries that didn't regard the Stars and Stripes as a target?

Maybe, just maybe, Big Oil isn't in charge of everything.

Any answers Hugo, or just a rant?

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:21 PM

I agree, mg. But that is not what this person wants. He refuses to acknowledge that the Israeli's also have claims. He also will not acknowledge any of the dispossession that occurred prior to the 20th century. My point is quite simple. His type of rhetoric will do nothing to bring peace to this land. I have consistently said that both have a right to a homeland, and that the way forward is at the table. I have said that the wrongs done to the Palestinians must be acknowledged, but I will not put them on a pedestal. They take actions designed to bring destruction and death to their own, and then proclaim them martyrs, and the Israeli's as bloodthirsty animals. The way to justice for the Palestinian does not lie with the destruction of Jews and Israel. It is fine to demand recognition of the Palestinian grievances, as long as you demand recognition of the Israeli's as well.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:24 PM

In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then or now and they were determined to get ALL of that remaining 25%. Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron slaughters of 1929 and later the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British, at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye.

.....

Although the Churchill´s White Paper stated that the Mandate "is not susceptible of change" the British sliced 76% of the land, east of the Jordan River, and gave it Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia). That land was renamed Trans-Jordan. Not even a year had passed and Great Britain was in violation of Article 5 of its Mandate, which stated "no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power." From this point on, Jewish immigration to newly partitioned Trans-Jordan was forbidden whilst a blind eye was turned to Arab immigration to the west [of the Jordan River], in complete violation of article 2, which demanded "safeguarding the civil rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion".

.....


After rejecting, two years earlier, the idea of a Jewish partition in Palestine recommended by the Peel Commission, and after excluding Jews from 76% of the land rightfully theirs as Jews and as citizen of the Mandate, the British decided to impose a solution; it was called the MacDonald´s White Paper. This paper limited legitimate Jewish immigration to 75,000 over a period of five years. In order to get Arab support against Nazi Germany, the British Government left millions of Jews at the hand of the Nazis, condemning them to die in the most horrific circumstances, which we now know, and forbidding them to go to the land promised to them by the League of Nations 17 years earlier. The League of Nations slammed the British stating that "the policy set out in the [MacDonald] White Paper was not in accordance with the interpretation which, in agreement with the Mandatory Power and the Council, the Commission had placed upon the Palestine Mandate."

During their years as a mandatory power, Great Britain sliced the Jewish National Home and did what they could to dilute Jewish presence in the Holy Land. In 1947 the British proposed the land be split once again and gave birth to UNGAR Resolution 181. They knew that the General Assembly [that passed this resolution] had no power, because General Assembly resolutions are under Chapter VI of the UN Charter, which is not "imperative" and only "give advices", as the Syrian representative said when he rejected the partition plan, but it was nevertheless accepted by David Ben-Gurion. At the end of that year, the Americans declared an embargo on arm sales to the region "hoping it would avoid bloodshed", but the Jordanians, Egyptians, Iraqis and Syrians where fully armed by the British and the French. Britain had a knack of leaving behind countless munitions and arms in the Arab lands they mandated. Even though the partition was accepted by the General Assembly, the Nations of the World created an environment where the Jewish State would be "born dead".

History decided otherwise. The infant Jewish State managed to import arms from Eastern Europe and, against all the odds, defeated her enemies. Britain´s plan to split the land in three was never accomplished. Trans-Jordan was renamed Jordan when it was granted "independence" in 1946, mirroring British policy, to allow citizenship to any citizen of the Mandate excluding Jews [as codified in their Constitution].

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:38 PM

Let me see...


640,000 Palestinians flee from what becomes Israel, while numerous others stay and become Israeli citizens. No Arab nation will absorb them, even though the state of Jordan was specifically formed to be the "Arab Homeland" of Mandate Palestine.

Meanwhile, 820,000 Jews are driven out of Arab nations, and all are settled in Israel.

Now the Palestinians demand the land of Israel, for the 640,000 who left. By MY calculations, the Israelis should demand 1.3 times the area of Israel from Jordan, for THEIR refugees. Just about the size of the Entire West Bank, which under pre-WWII rulings was to have been a Jewish Homeland.


So, given the sacred "right of Return" the Arabs support, Israel is entirely justified in annexing the ENTIRE West Bank. Any Arab settlers there can go back to the Arab Homeland, Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 02:18 PM

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php


"Unfortunately for the Zionists and counter to the whole expressed purpose of the Mandate in the first place, by this action more than three-quarters of the territory of the British Mandate was taken away from the potential Jewish Homeland without any corresponding action favoring the Palestinian Jews. The squeeky Arab wheel was greased with concessions at the sole expense of the Jewish population."

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 02:21 PM

Article 6.

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/sanremo.html

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly, with a two-thirds majority international vote, passed the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181), a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area (encompassing Bethlehem) coming under international control. Jewish leaders (including the Jewish Agency), accepted the plan, while Palestinian Arab leaders rejected it and refused to negotiate. Neighboring Arab and Muslim states also rejected the partition plan. The Arab community reacted violently after the Arab Higher Committee declared a strike and burned many buildings and shops. As armed skirmishes between Arab and Jewish paramilitary forces in Palestine continued, the British mandate ended on May 15, 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel having been proclaimed the day before (see Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel). The neighboring Arab states and armies (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Transjordan, Holy War Army, Arab Liberation Army, and local Arabs) immediately attacked Israel following its declaration of independence, and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War ensued. Consequently, the partition plan was never implemented.


Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. It was divided between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

In addition to the UN-partitioned area, Israel captured 26% of the Mandate territory west of the Jordan river. Jordan captured and annexed about 21% of the Mandate territory. Jerusalem was divided, with Jordan taking the eastern parts, including the old city, and Israel taking the western parts. The Gaza Strip was captured by Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century emigration of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from majority Arab lands. Typically, this emigration followed discrimination, harassment, persecution, and financial confiscation on the part of the majority population and/or government agencies. Approximately two-thirds of affected Jews emigrated to the modern State of Israel; other common refuge destinations included the United States, Canada and France. Disruption overall was significant: the ancestors of many Jews had resided within Arab lands for centuries before the advent and spread of Islam in the seventh century CE. The ancestors of others had immigrated in later centuries. Previously sporadic Jewish emigration from Arab lands accelerated following the establishment of Israel in 1948. The process accelerated as Arab nations under French, British and Italian colonial rule or protection gained independence. Further Arab-Israeli wars were sustained by, and in turn exacerbated, anti-Jewish sentiment within the various Arab-majority states. Within a few years after the Six Day War there were only remnants of Jewish communities left in most Arab lands.

Many, but by no means all, writers on the topic regard the Jewish exodus from Arab lands as a historical parallel to the Palestinian exodus during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Six-Day War. Jews in Arab lands have been reduced by more than 99% since 1948 while the Arab population of Israel has grown larger than its 1948 base.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:07 PM

After the 1948 War for Independence and the Jordanian takeover, the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan. They cooperated with its unilateral annexation by Jordan, becoming part of Jordan's political system. Across the barbed wire that marked the dividing line, Jordanian East Jerusalem was not made the capital, even for its Palestinian residents, in 19 years of Jordanian rule. The capital remained in Amman. There was no outcry of claims of "Palestinian" identity being submerged by Jordan.


The reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following the annexation the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self-determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incites this claim.

The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. During the 1948-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM

Habib Issa wrote in the New York Lebanese daily newspaper At Hoda on June 8, 1951 :

The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade... He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. -- Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:49 PM

Behind the US support for Israel is indeed the demand by the US to control directly or indirectly the oilfields of the Middle East.
Israel does not produce oil itself but acts as a guard dog for US interests in the region.
If any of the current Arab regimes step out of line they now that Israel can unleash its powerful army against them as has happened in the past in the caes of Egypt,Syria,Jordan and the Lebanon.
THe US has spent hundreds of billions of pounds supporting the Israeli military precisely because Israel can act as a threat.
Of course national and democratic movements in the Middle East have been tamed,shackled and broken by US policies whichhas contributed to the rise of Islamic movements in the region.
Israel has already invaded the Suez Canal and its forces are training kurdish nationalists who are intent on separating from Iraq taking the oilfields of the north with them.
Israel is also being lined up to attack Iran when given the green light by the US.
Yes Big Oil plays a big part in the arming of Israel by the USA.
HUGO

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:58 PM

"If any of the current Arab regimes step out of line they now that Israel can unleash its powerful army against them as has happened in the past in the caes of Egypt,Syria,Jordan and the Lebanon."


Such as when??? All REALLY big exporters of oil, I see.....

Your unsupported claims do not impress me as having much to do with the reality of the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 03:04 PM

"Israel has already invaded the Suez Canal " back in the 50's- being pushed by Great Britain and France- The US actually did not approve of it.


A little knowledge of history MIGHT make your arguments somewhat more reasonable, or at least worth the effort of reading.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 03:11 PM

"War fought between Egypt on one side, and Israel, Britain and France on the other. The background for the war were disputes over rights of control over the traffic passing through the Suez Canal, who was to own the canal as well as the continued clashes between Israel and Egypt that had occurred in all the years that had followed since the end of the First Palestinian War in 1949.
The war had serious impact on the moral and political strength of the nations involved. Britain and France achieved nothing but to prove their lack of political insight and maturity, as their actions nearly provoked more countries to enter into a big scale war. Egypt's president Gamal Abdel Nasser rose to star status, as Egypt achieved all of its initial goals, despite the losses on the battle field. This war also became the start of USA's leading position as mediator in the Middle East, a position the country held up until early 1990's."

:"The Suez Crisis [1] (Arabic: ÃÒãÉ ÇáÓæíÓ - ÇáÚÏæÇä ÇáËáÇËí) was a war fought on Egyptian territory in 1956. The conflict pitted Egypt against an alliance between the United Kingdom, France and Israel. The United States also played a crucial role, albeit not a military one.

This alliance against Egypt largely took place as a result of the Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser's action of nationalizing the Suez Canal Company, which operated the Suez Canal, an important asset to French and British economies, particularly as a chokepoint in world oil shipments. British policy makers initially feared an Israeli attack on Egypt, and sought cooperation with the United States throughout 1956 to deal with Egyptian-Israeli tensions.

The alliance between the two European nations and Israel was largely one of convenience; the European nations had economic and trading interests in the Suez Canal, while Israel wanted to reopen the canal for Israeli shipping and end Egyptian-supported guerrilla incursions.

When the USSR threatened to intervene on behalf of Egypt, Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs Lester B. Pearson feared a larger war and came up with a clever plan to separate the opposing forces by placing United Nations forces between them to act as a buffer zone or 'human shield' (he later won a Nobel Peace Prize for his role in ending the conflict).

The Crisis resulted in the resignation of the British Conservative Prime Minister, Sir Anthony Eden, and marked the completion of the shift in the global balance of power from traditional European powers to the United States and the Soviet Union and was a milestone in the decline of the British Empire."

"The operation to take the canal was highly successful from a military point of view, but a political disaster due to external forces. Along with Suez, the United States was also dealing with the near-simultaneous Soviet-Hungary crisis, and faced the public relations embarrassment (especially in the eyes of the Third World) of criticizing the Soviet Union's military intervention there while not also criticizing its two principal European allies' actions.

Thus, the Eisenhower administration forced a cease-fire on Britain and France, which it had previously told the Allies it would not do. Part of the pressure that the United States used against Britain was financial, as Eisenhower threatened to sell the United States reserves of the British pound and thereby precipitate a collapse of the British currency. After Saudi Arabia started an oil embargo against Britain and France, the U.S. refused to fill the gap, until Britain and France agreed to a rapid withdrawal. [4] There was also a measure of discouragement for Britain in the rebuke by the Commonwealth Prime Ministers St. Laurent of Canada and Menzies of Australia at a time when Britain was still continuing to regard the Commonwealth as an entity of importance as the residue of the British Empire and as an automatic supporter in its effort to remain a world power."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Suez_War

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,IBO
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:31 PM

I RECOGNISE ISRAEL,ITS THAT PLACE WHERE THEY KEEP BOMBING EACH OTHER,ISNT IT

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:33 PM

people keep making the mistake of seeing the problem as being between Jews and Palestinians.

The point is this - the jews who lived in palestine before '48 were palestinians.

There were palestinian jews, moslems and christians.

They were all native and had "roots" in the soil.

The political state of Israel is nade up of poles, germans, canadians russians etc etc.

Those palestinians who have been denied their land etc (the non jewish ones) were kicked off by the brits to make way for foreigners.

Yet again politicized religion obscures common sense

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:11 PM

Great, so we're actually dealing with a civil war then. That makes evetything so much better...

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:08 AM

"Those palestinians who have been denied their land etc (the non jewish ones) were kicked off by the brits to make way for foreigners."


Just as the non-Moslum Pakistanis, non-Moslum Bangladesh and non- Hindu Indians were kicked off THEIR land- but Britain has always sorted things out by religion. You ignore that the state of Jordan was reserved as the ARAB homeland, with NO Jews allowed.

Why do you keep ignoring the Arab Jews that were denied THEIR land and kicked out of Arab countries? It seems like ONLY the Moslums have any rights, by the comments of some here.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:21 AM

"The political state of Israel is nade up of poles, germans, canadians russians etc etc."


The majority of the present population of Israel was born there.


"On the eve of Rosh Hashanah, 5767, the State of Israel's population stands at approximately 6,990,700 inhabitants – compared to 806,000 residents who lived in Israel in 1948, according Central Bureau of Statistics data.

Of the total population, 5,313,800 are Jews (76 percent) while 1,377,100 million (20 percent) are Arabs. Just under 300,000 (4 percent) classified as "others" are mostly new immigrants and their families who are not registered as Jews in the Interior Ministry.

In the past year the Israeli population has grown by 118,000 people. The majority of the increase (104,000) is due to natural births. During this one year period some 138,000 births were recorded in Israel. During that same period, 21,000 new immigrants made aliyah to Israel.

...
Of the country's Jewish and non-Arab population , 65 percent were born in Israel. In 1948, only 35 percent of Jews born in the country.

The Jews and non-Arabs who were not born in Israel number 1,930,000; those who came from the former Soviet Union comprise the largest foreign-born group in Israel. In addition to the 950,000 that came from the former USSR, 157,000 people living in Israel were born in Morocco, 110,000 are from Romania, and 77,000 are originally North American, 70,000 from Iraq, 70,000 from Ethiopia and 64,000 from Poland. Three million people have immigrated to Israel since 1948, more than one million of them since 1990; 26,000 immigrated in the past year."

source

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:01 AM

Jordanian Religions

Sunni Muslim 92%, Christian 6% (majority Greek Orthodox, but some Greek and Roman Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Protestant denominations), other 2% (several small Shi'a Muslim and Druze populations) (2001 est.)

SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; International Religious Freedom Report 2004



Israeli Religions


Religions
Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003)

SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; World Jewish Congress (WJC), 1998; 2002 Report of Jehovah's Witnesses Worldwide; International Religious Freedom Report 2004; adventiststatistics.org 2004 Annual Report 31 December 2004