BS: UFOs in the news

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:32 PM

Thank you, Shimrod. I hope that someday circumstances may work out that we can meet.

####

Josep, this is pretty heavy going, but there is lots of information here:   CLICKY.

Then, you might take a good, long look at THIS. And THINK about it.

A recently discovered terrestrial planet orbiting Gliese 581 shows great promise as a possible habitable planet. It is in the temperate zone, in which liquid water may exist, and although it is somewhat more massive than earth, this does not preclude the possibility of life developing and evolving there.

Steven Vogt, professor of astronomy and astrophysics at UC Santa Cruz, and Paul Butler of the Carnegie Institution lead the Lick-Carnegie Exoplanet Survey. The team's new findings are reported in a paper published in the Astrophysical Journal and posted online at http://arxiv.org. "Our findings offer a very compelling case for a potentially habitable planet," said Vogt. "The fact that we were able to detect this planet so quickly and so nearby tells us that planets like this must be really common." The report goes on to say that there are at least two possible planets in that system.

Finding extrasolar planets is particularly difficult because any body within a star's vicinity is lost in the glare of the star itself. So indirect means have to be use. One of these is miniscule perturbations of the star's motion, indicating another body in its vicinity. It is no wonder, therefore, that the first extrasolar planets that have been found are massive gas giants, like Jupiter, or planets even larger

But—within the last few (very few) years, smaller terrestrial (rocky, perhaps earthlike) planets have been found, including the planet orbiting Gliese 581, cited above.

And as I said before (and this is not just MY idea), a planet does not have to be an exact earth analog for life to develop and evolve. For life as we know it (and not necessarily humanoid life), one needs liquid water, some manner of energy input (light for photosynthesis easily provided by the central star or heat from volcanic activity) and organic compounds. AND organic compounds are rife throughout the universe, as is proven by the fact that they have been found in meteor fragments, and spectroscopic analysis finds them practically everywhere, such as in interstellar gas and dust.

But, Josep, you would know all of this if you had taken the time to read more that one book on the subject.

I never said flatly that there is humanoid life on extrasolar planets, but given the right conditions—and they exist all over the galaxy—life would most certainly develop, and some of it might very well evolve into a humanoid form. In the same way that two plus two equals four both on earth and at the very edge of the universe, the same laws of biology that operate on earth will operate throughout the universe, with the minor details of implementation modified, of course, by local conditions.

I don't know that there is life anywhere else than on the earth—nor can you say with any certainly that there is not, but all scientific things considered, it would be most peculiar if there were not. And that includes the possibility that some of it might tend to resemble humans at least in superficial ways (bilateral symmetry, arms, legs, and head attached to a central torso, complete with sense organs such as eyes and ears, although the whole assembly may be quite different from our own).

Nor to believe in "flying saucers." I have read up on the subject and I have met and talked to reasonable, rational people (NOT kooks!) who claim they have seen them clearly. Nevertheless, I remain skeptical, having never seen one myself.

I have, indeed, seen "unidentified flying objects." I live under one of the approaches to the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (which, fortunately, is far enough south so that the incoming aircraft are at a fair altitude and noise is not a problem), and planes fly over all the time, one after another. I once worked for the Boeing Airplane Company, and I can easily identify the 707, the 727 and the 737, and I actually did some of the engineering drawings on the 747, so I have no problem identifying them when they fly over. I am also quite familiar with the appearance of the Douglas DC-10. But quite frequently a plane flies over that I can't identify. An "Unidentified Flying Object." And when in the wilds, I have often swatted a flying insect that I couldn't put a name to. A "UFO?"

But apart from the time a large jet flew over at dusk with its landing lights on, in the fading light it looked for all the world like the Klingon battle cruiser that Kirk and his cohorts were using in the movie Star Trek: The Voyage Home, have I ever been tempted to claim that I've seen a space ship from some planet other than earth.

Josep, unless you are completely locked into your prejudices, or, for that matter, bound by your faith if you are in sync with the Discovery Institute, which uses Ward's and Brownlee's Rare Earth as a basis for much of their propaganda when they advance their contention that the earth and all life thereon HAD to have been "intelligently designed" by some superior being, i.e., God (as I said, "Creationism in a lab smock"), then I suggest that you google words like "exobiology," "astrobiology," and/or "habitable planets" and you will come up with a host of reading material on the matter.

Educate yourself before you start getting snotty with people for disagreeing with your flat and ill-informed statements.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM

"For that matter, what exactly IS your case", Josep? IF you believe in intelligent design (and your advocacy of this 'Rare Earth' book appears to suggest that you do) why not come out and state that you do?

I'm sure that he can look after himself but, for the record, I have always found Mr Firth's posts to be interesting, thoughtful and well-informed. Unfortunately, we're not 'buddies' because I think that we live in different parts of the world. Neverthless, I suspect that if we ever met we could have a very civilised debate - from which anger and petulance would be absent. I'm also sure that I would learn a lot from him and I'm also sure that he doesn't deserve to be insulted.

You can insult me all you like - 'water off a duck's back' as my Mum used to say.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 01:55 AM

Josep, did you read the article to which I posted a link at 06 Oct 10 - 08:54 p.m? Apparently not.

I'll be back tomorrow. In the meantime, calm down.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:54 PM

Calm down, Josep. You always seem to be on the edge of battle. Our policy is that we're supposed to delete Guest posts that have even a hint of animosity. By that standard, I should delete half your messages.

The idea here is to have friendly discussion, not bloody battles.


-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

(I'd prefer to be able to tell you this privately. But since you haven't registered, I can't.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:49 PM

"Educate myself?   I have."

You missed a bit, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:29 PM

Why don't you just state your source? What's wrong? Educate myself?   I have. If you doubt it then the burden is on you to prove it. Evidently you can't. I want you to spend your time? You're the one who took the time to write me and tell me that I'm wrong and the book I referenced is a worthless piece of shit. So now I'm asking why. What is in the latest issue of Astronomy magazine that proves your case? For that matter, what exactly IS your case? Just a brief synposis of the article and who wrote it and what his or her credentials are. Come on, Firth, surely you have to admit your answer sounds like a bit of a cop-out, right? Would you accept the same answer from me?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:21 PM

I HAVE refered you to sources, Josep. Try buying a copy of the latest "Astronomy" magazine off of any well-stocked magazine stand. Or "Scientific American." Or "Science News," a weekly magazine. Do an internet search for any one or all of these magazines and read some sample articles.

RECENT sources, Josep. Ten years is a fairly long time in a fast developing field in which new information is coming in every day.

You want ME to spend MY time cutting-and-pasting articles for you to read? Educate yourself and try to keep up!

Do your own damned homework, Josep!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:31 PM

///Oh, I see! A bad-tempered and petulant 'intelligent-design' enthusiast.///

Aw, shucks, I am bad-tempered and petulant--thank you. But how did you manage to pull ID out of your ass? And that's the only place it could have came from.

Maybe unlike you buddy, Firth, you could provide evidence of your claims.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:26 PM

////Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws:
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost
certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Other good observations by Clarke:
I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here.

If we have learned one thing from the history of invention and discovery, it is that, in the long run — and often in the short one — the most daring prophecies seem laughably conservative.///

Oh, well, then if Arthur C. Clarke said it then I guess that proves it. Is that what you're saying?

////Rare Earth was published in 2000. That seems pretty recent, but between such things as the Mars rovers wandering around, sniffing and tasting (last telemetry received in 2005 as I recall, so apparently they are now defunct), and all the work being done with the Hubble Telescope and such, the fields of astronomy, cosmology, and exobiology are moving quite quickly, with new data being received every day. By the time a book is published, some of the information (and the speculation based in it) is outdated.

This is why I DO read books in these fields—BUT rely for really recent findings on periodicals such as "Astronomy" magazine, plus a couple of web sites. And a friend who works in the University of Washington's astrobiology department.///

Here's the problem I'm having with you, Firth: you have provided not a single shred of evidence to back up anything you've and I hate arguing with people who ojust say "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong!!!" But are too afraid themselves to provide sources. What's the matter? Afraid I or someone else in here will cut your sources down the way you've tried to do to mine? Oh, yeah, trust me--quoting your source in this forum is either very stupid or very gutsy because they WILL attack your sources and do everything in their power to ridicule them and then demand an apology if you take them to task for it. And like pitbulls, they will not let it go and will keep arguing and arguing the same pointless shit until you're half-crazy hearing from them over and over again.

Here's another problem I have with you, Firth: you talk like you're just so well read and I'm not. Yes, Firth, I'll be honest--I have never read a single book in my life other than "Rare Earth." I mean, why would I? Astronomy magazines, science texts--well, why would I read those??? I just paid for my papers that got me through college. Why write them when I've only read one book in my entire life and will never even consider reading another?

Ok--here's the deal: You say "Rare Earth" is a worthless piece of junk that isn't worth the time it takes to flick it from cover to cover. So give us a critique. Tell us precisely what is wrong with it--feel free to quote entire passages. And back up your assertions with statements by qualified people and that means the name of the periodical or book and the page number(s). Since you know the book so well, that ought to be a piece of cake. And no quoting Arthur Clarke unless it is actually evidence rather than his opinions.

One Steve Shaw in here is enough (well, at least you didn't mention Darwin).

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

INTERESTING!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 05:43 PM

Very interesting! I've been wondering why they don't (at least officially) go back there. It suggests to me that they have a "security" problem of some kind regarding the Moon.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 04:13 PM

Looney moon stuff

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 02:01 PM

Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws:

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost
certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Other good observations by Clarke:

I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here.

If we have learned one thing from the history of invention and discovery, it is that, in the long run — and often in the short one — the most daring prophecies seem laughably conservative.

Rare Earth was published in 2000. That seems pretty recent, but between such things as the Mars rovers wandering around, sniffing and tasting (last telemetry received in 2005 as I recall, so apparently they are now defunct), and all the work being done with the Hubble Telescope and such, the fields of astronomy, cosmology, and exobiology are moving quite quickly, with new data being received every day. By the time a book is published, some of the information (and the speculation based in it) is outdated.

This is why I DO read books in these fields—BUT rely for really recent findings on periodicals such as "Astronomy" magazine, plus a couple of web sites. And a friend who works in the University of Washington's astrobiology department.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:11 PM

I bet the FSGW has a pretty large number of members, eh? We have a folk society in Orillia that is doing great, but we've only got a population of about 30,000 here to draw from.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:08 PM

Actually, the only thing that has deterred them from pushing the button that would leave nothing but smoke in Earth's orbital track is their annual oversight of the FSGW Getaway which has convinced them that Man has a decent, comnpassionate, intelligent, and aesthetic side.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:40 AM

Well, you see, they're very thorough. They believe in fully investigating a serious matter like this before jumping to hasty conclusions. A mere perusal of our daily television transmissions, for example, has given them the general impression that we are probably all violent, silly, and insane, but they have held off destroying this planet as a galactic cautionary measure for the time being, because they don't want to be too precipitate. They figure, reasonably, that there might still be something or someone worth saving here. Like me and Winona Ryder, for example. And Dachshunds. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM

That would imply that the aliens are not too smart, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

"There aren't two of them surely?"

Aw hell, Ebbie....there are thousands of these sort of lads all over Canada. Specially in the rural areas and small towns. ;-) You can find them congregating at the Beer Store, the garage, and the local seedy bar...usually from about 12:00 noon on until the wee hours. They open beer bottles with their teeth, engage in chug-a-lug contests, proudly demonstrate how they can make fart sounds with their underarms by a quick movement of the right arm against the body, and make crude passes at the waitresses.

A number of these worthy chaps, including Shane himself, have been apprehended and studied closely by visiting aliens who are still attempting to determine if there is really any intelligent life on this planet.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

"DUH!!!!! Sure I have my views just as everybody else has theirs. Stop being an ass."

Oh, I see! A bad-tempered and petulant 'intelligent-design' enthusiast.

Thanks for the 'heads-up', Don. I thought that I was missing something in Josep's 'arguments' (intemperate rants?) - now I know what I was missing!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:44 AM

There aren't two of them surely? Or is Dale an alter ego?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

Dale is one of Shane's should-have-been buddies, Ebbie. They have a lot in common. I think he lives in New Brunswich or something, so Shane hasn't actually met him yet, but I think they'd get along great. When I consider meetings with aliens and such, I always just ask myself, "What would Dale do?"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:48 AM

You don't wanna go round eating grey green aliens.
Their skin has a symbiotic parasite that helps in photosynthetic sugar production that would make you very sick.

But iffn you skin em an clean real good...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:34 AM

Dale? Dale? My first thought was Dale Evans, then I thought it must be a man then I thought of Mudcatter Dale Rose.

Come on. Dale Who?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:14 PM

LH.... Dale wouldn`t pay no mind ta them little fellers unless he could corner one an get him in the back of the pickup an call Billy The Shat an see if he could get him on one a them documetary type shows.

I hope Dale don`t read none a this... on accounta he don`t believe in aliens but some a his relatives could pass fer one an that would just give him ideas fer hittin Billy up er tryin ta get in the tab loids n such.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:54 PM

Here you go, Josep.

CLICKY.

You really need to read more than one book to get an idea of what's going on.

This IS a BIG universe, and the possibilites (fully within the laws of nature) are legion!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM

Josep, you are unduly hostile for a person who feels he has the facts (i.e., the truer speculations).

I've been an astronomy enthusiast since I was a kid, I took a number of astronomy courses in college (with telescope time in the observatory), and I read a great deal, keeping up with the latest in the field. A whole stack of recent books, plus "Astronomy" and "Sky and Telescope" magazines.

Calling someone an "ass" is a dead giveaway that you feel you are on shaky ground.

Have a nice day.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

///Josep, you need to read a few more books on astronomy and the possibilities of exobiology than just Rare Earth. That book is trying to peddle a particular agenda.

And it sounds like you might be also.///

DUH!!!!! Sure I have my views just as everybody else has theirs. Stop being an ass.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM

Well . . . if you're refering to the Dale I'm thinking of, she's scream, then Flash would rush in and rescue her.

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:55 PM

I always just ask myself, "What would Dale do?"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:41 PM

Gnu, I hate you; I can't stop laughing enough to get a damn thing done!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:08 PM

I haven't been up Kent County in a dawg's age but I am intendin ta go fer a drive in the bog country soon. I ain't goin huntin. I'm just goin fer a drive but I am takin my 12 semi an all I got is a bird license so as I can carry in case I am takin a piss an a blackie or a pack a yotes shows up twixt me an the truck.

My question is this. Should I get a bear license so as I can carry slugs er can I shoot the little red or green dwarfs with number 6 iffin they get between me an the truck? Er should I bring a bag a sugar and some carrots on accounta that always worked with moose? I mean, I'd rather feed em than shoot em iffin they ain't carnyvores. If they is, well, I'll feed em the lead.

Iffin I do end up takin one, should ya skin em warm? Do ya hang one long as yer moose? Y'all got any recipes?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:10 PM

THe planet Gliese seems to have the likelyhood of liquid water.
It orbits a red dwarf. A red dwarf star outnumbers a yellow star such as ours by a factor of a million. They are so mumerous that the life that may evolve there would have much in common with all the other red dwaref suns.

So... as I have speculated for decades, the eyes of life forms on such planets would be huge compared to ours due to the dim light.
This correlates with the common tale of aliens having large eyes.

Picture the entire electromagnetic spectrum as being 2,000 miles long. The area we see as visible light is about TWO INCHES long out of that entire 2,000 mile long spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:18 PM

Josep, you need to read a few more books on astronomy and the possibilities of exobiology than just Rare Earth. That book is trying to peddle a particular agenda.

And it sounds like you might be also.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 12:02 PM

You're comments are useless. Of ocurse talking about the origins of life and life on other planets is speculative--what else would it be? Both sides are forced to speculate. But rare earthers have more on the ball. That's really all there is to it. You can call it speculation and you'd be right--so what? It's like what happens after death. I have a reasoned argument that favors some kind of continuance but ultimately it's speculation. What else would it be? Your comments are not useful and grossly overstate the obvious--that we are in speculative territory. Doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to deduce that much.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:13 PM

Sounds like your confidence in the book is based more on faith than fact.

Hmm!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:37 PM

Thanks for your OPINION, Don ol' boy. But the fact are the facts. The book is right. And that's that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 05:54 PM

"You can't read it (Rare Earth) without discarding this idea that humanoids will be found all over this galaxy. We are likely the only humanoids in this galaxy."

Josep, this is a most interesting book, but it is based on a mixture of known science with a great deal of speculation, especially on the biological aspects.

I am familiar with Peter D. Ward and Robert Brownlee, both professors at the University of Washington here in Seattle where I live. I am also aware that Peter D. Ward has been associated with the Discovery Institute, which is also based in Seattle. I don't know if Ward is directly involved in the institute, but the institute is very fond of citing his work, particularly Rare Earth.

The Discovery Institute is a non-profit "think tank" whose primary purpose is the promulgation of the idea of "intelligent design" and opposing the teaching of science in high school classes, especially anything having to do with Darwin and evolution. "Intelligent design" uses a lot of scientific jargon, but after cutting through the smoke and mirrors of their arguments, it becomes patently obvious that "intelligent design"—the idea that the earth and its human inhabitants couldn't have happened merely as a matter of biological processes, but had to have been carefully "designed" by some superior intelligence—is nothing more than Creationism in a lab smock.

And what would that "Intelligent Designer" be called? "God," perchance?

I first learned of the existence of the Discovery Institute when I watched what I thought was a Nova-like program on television, called "The Privileged Planet." It outlined many of the ideas put forth by Ward's and Brownlee's book. The earth as a "Goldilocks planet" ("not too hot, not too cold, but just right"), plus a number of things they claimed were unique about the earth. Many of the things they cited were not necessarily common, certainly not within our own solar system, but given what we know about the formation of stars and planetary systems, earth analogs are certainly not "unique." If they were, that would be very odd! The television show had excellent production values, good graphics, used lots of pictures from the Hubble telescope, a narrator with a rich, resonant voice, and in its persuasiveness, it was quite compelling.

They almost had me sucked in until the last few minutes of the show, when they tried to wrap it up by claiming that all of this simply could not have happened as a result of natural laws. It HAD to have been the result of—and they didn't actually use the words, they used a lot of double-talk around them, but what they obviously meant was—Intelligent Design.

And who would that Intelligent Designer be, perchance?   

I realized that this very Nova-like show had been a con job, and I looked up the Discover Institute on the internet.

As Arte Johnson on "Laugh In," dressed in a German uniform and peering through the bushes, said, "Ve-e-e-ery interesting!!"

A FEW genuine scientific facts to make it sound like the straight scoop, but essentially, trying to peddle a bill of goods.

Josep, I never tried to claim that intelligent humanoid life exists all over the galaxy—or all over the universe, for that matter—but it is most certainly not impossible, as some, often for reasons they would rather not elaborate on, keep insisting.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 04:50 PM

Or the goose in Wawa. I hear you, LH.

Wonder what`s gonna happen when a few of us show up to swim.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM

It is way cool that we have that million dollar lake, 999...but is it as way cool as having the Big Nickel in Sudbury? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 11:16 AM

Little Hawk:

There is a benefit to that approach by government. I mean, man, we own a million dollar lake in Ontario. Like, how cool is that, eh.

This country has been out of good government for years and years, imo.

Later.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:12 AM

I know, I've lost count of things on the news that I COULD get including what food is good or bad for me and then they change their minds again and tell you that red wine is now good for the blood. Then to top the lot they stick the price up.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:14 AM

Oh, here's another favorite government and industry ploy I didn't think of on that list...

- raising huge public fears of a supposedly deadly pandemic, thereby permitting sale of hundreds of millions of dollars of vaccines and medicines, etc...a windfall for the pharmaceutical and medical industries.

The vaccines in these well-choreographed and frequent scares (there's one almost every year) have usually ended up killing more people than the supposed pandemic ever did. I get a weary sense of deja vu every time a new one starts, because I've seen it done over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:10 AM

That is another possibility, Patsy. It has occurred to me too, that the governments might use such a ploy to distract people. I think it's more likely that they're covering up real visitations, but either alternative is possible. Governments regularly use a number of methods to focus public angst in some direction or another in order to get the public to back some fiscal policy or support some military effort or legislative change. Among those ploys are:

- stoking exaggerated fear of some other nation, as was done to justify the invasion of Iraq, for instance.

- stoking exaggerated fear of some domestic minority group

- promoting conflict between different groups in the domestic population through raising of extremely divisive issues, such as the building of a mosque at "Ground Zero", for example.

- promoting fear of space aliens through publicizing this or that incident or theory

- promoting fear of climate change or other environmental threats

And so on. Anything that makes the public fearful can also be used to strengthen the government's position, enlarge its powers, and limit civil rights. These sort of tactics have been used over and over again throughout history by governments who were intent upon increasing their control over their own public.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:49 AM

I think it is a plot of all the Governments to keep people interested in the possibility of other planets and lifeforms and other worlds in order to distract us from what is really happening (war, greed etc.)similar to when you were a child. That is not always a bad thing because we all need light relief.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:27 PM

I see. You're talking about something that I am not talking about and yet you felt the need to put my name on it and tell me all about it as if I could care. And you wonder why I'm getting annoyed.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 12:53 PM

"You're also not paying attention to what I write but then this is mudcat and I realize that's how it is around here. I'm NOT talking about ALL life. I'm talking about human life."

Touchy!! Josep, nothing that you have written rules out the possibility of humanoid aliens having evolved on other planets. True we don't know of any planets orbiting other stars which are exactly like Earth but there is a possibility that something like parallel evolution could occur in a similar, but not identical, environment.
As a thought experiment try imagining a credible, full functioning intelligent being (which has evolved on an earthlike planet) which is NOT vaguely humanoid. I would guess that something that evolved on a world profoundly different from ours might well be different.

And, by the way, if you stop throwing tantrums and go back and read my original post you will find that I said nothing about humanoid aliens and was making a different point entirely!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:45 AM

"What if to the 'aliens' this is their home? What if we unknowingly are sharing the earth"

Chances are we already are: Growth and replication of red rain cells at 121 oC and their red fluorescence.

The thing is, we assume aliens are going to be like us. More than likely we're not even going to be able to recognise them if they did land on the White House lawn tomorrow morning as the will be so radically alien in form and culture we would struggle to tell which way up they were.

An alien could be a sentient gas cloud, many light years across that takes years to form a thought. We could fly right through it in a spaceship and not even realise it's existence. They might be silicone-based and need to breathe liquid hydrocarbons and eat olivine (shades of the burrowing Horta!) etc.

They might be able to manipulate the physical universe in ways we would be unable to distinguish from magic (LH's time travel might be a breeze to them).

As for greys and flying saucers - these are cultural interpretations of misunderstood or misidentified natural phenomena or conventional aircraft, even if they are secret government projects. In the middle ages they were wheels and stars, now they're spaceships; in 500 years they'll be something else.

But here's a thing (a true one too). This summer my wife and I travelled across the Atlantic and spend three weeks in the American West. The first week was spent in the field digging for dinosaurs in the badlands of the Hell Creek formation of North Dakota and Montana. On our last day in the field our two-car convoy was headed north on a highway close to the ND border when a flash of movement on the far horizon caught my eye. I watched a sleek object shoot up at an incredible speed and on a trajectory that would be impossible for a fixed wing aircraft. I pointed it out to the other four people in the car and as one of the chaps commented, it "was haulin' ". It might have been a missile or something but it was really shifting, leaving a sharp trail through the clouds but no trail in the blue sky. I can honestly say I've never seen anything like it in my life, and I've lived near airports all my life.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,ebbie, housesitting
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:25 AM

Oh, and I just remembered what another brother (I had four) told me. He lived about 70 miles from me in a community not too far from Portland, Oregon that is also wooded and hilly.

He said that one time he was glassing the hillside several miles away from his house when he saw a dome-shaped craft settle down on legs (he didn't see its approach and he was too far away to hear anything) on the hillside. He said he stared at it but never saw anything leave the craft and then suddenly it simply was no longer there.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 11:09 AM

Hmmm. Well, that's another interesting possibility, Ebbie. I've also heard stuff about the "inner Earth" people, but I have no idea if there's any factual basis to it.

I think we can also consider the possibility of some form of inter-dimensional travel or even time travel.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs in the news
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:57 AM

What if to the 'aliens' this is their home? What if we unknowingly are sharing the earth? There are people who claim, apparently seriously, that there are beings inside the earth.

I doubt that. However.

One very early September morning I was a couple of miles from home in a wooded, remote valley when just as I crested a hill, a cigar-shaped object , maybe twice the size of a torpedo, from my left crossed the road rising to clear the trees and over the hill on my right. Although I have the description written down somewhere I no longer remember the details but there was what appeared to be flames inside the thing, and in two different places in it. The 'flames' were of different colors.

A couple of days later I spoke of what I saw to my brother who lived with our parents almost directly across the road from the sugar-loaf hill that blocked the afternoon sun from their place (I lived another mile farther on), and he said that the summer before he and another brother had been working in the fields with our father making hay, when they saw something that appeared identical to what I described travel almost over them and head for the sugar loaf and disappear through the trees and inside, they thought. He said there was no sound when it went overhead nor when it went into the trees.

So what was that?