BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents

Subject: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM

It is a question for parents of grade schoolers, tween agers and teens alike.
Although each indiviudal and community has different criterion, I was wondering how people decide upon degrees of freedom for their children. Being overly sheltered may present problems in the future but too much freedom has immediate dangers of its own.

Parents all must hold their breath and hope for the best at some point but are there any truisms for holding on and letting go that are universal?

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:47 PM

If you have a son, you worry about one penis. If you have a daughter, you worry about all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:57 PM

GOOD one, Mrzzy!! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Our situation is a little different. Brendan - our 5 year old - soon to be 6 in December - is dealing with autism. So he's very happy to stay in his cocoon. We're the ones who are pushing him out of his comfort zone for his own good. If he's comfortable he's not growing. We've decided to move to a different school district in order to put him in a more challenging situation.

Far too many people around him - like his Grandmother - tend to want to baby him and make allowences for his situation.We're not buying into that. It's tough going some days. But the harder we push him the better off he'll be. We're learning all new definitions of the term "tough love".

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:44 PM

We all have to make our own decisions regarding this. Where we live, etc. Me, I was pretty lenient but it's a small town and we all know everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:41 PM

The degree of freedom allowed will depend on SO many things....the perceived maturity of the kids, the interests they seem to have, the neighborhood and schools they are in, ....and the intangible 'general notions of propriety' held by the parents. (yes, they DO differ!)

and obviously, there is the practical problem of how to enforce what is 'allowed'. You can set a good example and try to hold their confidence, but you can't chain 'em to the bed!

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:48 PM

If he's comfortable he's not growing.

"Autism" is a label that can mean a whole lot of different things. That might well be a valid rule of thumb in your boy's case, Wesley, but for a lot of children with that label it'd be completely the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:04 PM

Beats me. I do not want my grandson out of my sight unless I absolutely trust who he might be with. I just found out it is not deemed safe to use your child(apostrophe)s name in public places lest some stranger lure them away. Which made me wonder what kind of fucked up society we live in when I have to address my grandson by kiddo, squirt, heya etc. My daughters both confirmed this with me. They have also told me there is no way they will allow their sons to wander as much as they did when youngsters. To be fair they do not live in the same types of communities they did when growing up, but it is still a measure of our times, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:22 PM

Freedom varies. There can be no hard & fast rule, since everything is constantly changing.
We make each decision as it comes, and it's not always easy or obvious. Sometimes it's virtually impossible to know what is right so you make a decision and hold your breath.

Our biggest problem is that she is 12 and he is 9. He thinks he's ready for whatever she's ready for. Sometimes he gets it because she's entitled to it, and sometimes she isn't allowed it because it would be inappropriate for him. In cases of the latter, she must never know. We try to be as honest as possible with them, we always have, but some untruths are good and necessary.

(I am not kidding myself with words like 'untruths', I know they are technically lies, but I do believe there are degrees of duplicity, and not all of it is malicious.)

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 11:18 PM

I agree that today's world is faster, richer, more crowded - whatever labels we want to attach. Knowing what I know as an adult, I would absolutely hate to be young today.

However- I expect the perception has always been thus.

I am 70 years old. I grew up in Oregon and Virginia in primarily rural areas. I remember my mother warning me that the world "is different now from what it was when" she was young.

When was the world ever safe?

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:55 AM

The world was never safe, it just had different degrees of danger.   

At age 12 in 1944, my mother was already helping her mother cook, riding heavy horses without safety equipment or saddle, lighting the fire and milking cows by hand. They had 5 strange men dumped on them from nowhere (soldiers billeted with them for the duration) and were constantly aware of the danger of invasion by the German forces.

When I was 12, my mother wouldn't allow us out of the garden, but we did have a pretty big garden. The farm was gone by then, so there were no horses to work but I'd helped out with the milking from 6yrs on. What was dangerous then (rural Dorset, temporaly 1970s but in reality 1930's) was traffic on the roads, falling into rivers/brambles/stinging nettles or off walls/trees/swings/bikes. There were no such things as perverts/child molesters/rapists/flashers/kidnappers even though there was a 'mental hospital' a mile up the road, that had a secure unit [it had been the County Lunatic Asylum since about 1790 until Maggie Thatcher shut all the Psychiatric hospitals in the 1980s.... Anyone else see a pattern?].

You have to read the environment around you and your child before you decide on degrees of independence. Limpit walks home alone from school now. She knows about stranger danger and there is a lollipop lady (crossing guard) on the only road she has to cross. She goes out on her bike around the block, but not across roads - we know the way people drive around here.

There is no longer a 'now you are N yrs old you can....' rite of passage. Each child grows as much or as little as we parents let them. The best we can do is try not to make the mistakes we think our parents made with us.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Sooz
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:13 AM

Take care with "stranger danger" - most of the harm which befalls our children is from people they know.

I still worry about my 28 year old daughter and what she is doing! She rarely went out in the evening until she leaned to drive. Luckily we enjoyed each others company. Yesterday I spoke to the mother of a twelve year old in my class at school who is worried about her daughters behaviour. That mother had been in the same school cohort as my daughter. There but for the grace of God?

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Morticia
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:19 AM

Can I just point out that, in the UK at least, the chances of your child being abducted/ harmed by some passing stranger is no higher than it was 30 years ago. As Sooz points out, it's family and friends that present a higher risk than strangers. We've all become much more paranoid and percieve the world as a dangerous place and so it is, but no more than it always was in terms of this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:51 AM

For me the issue with my 15 year old daughter, is where is she going.

She has 4 nice friends. However none of them have anywhere to go or to do in the evenings.
I am constantly trying to get my daughter to develope interests that she can go to in the evenings, and I will make sure she gets there and back.

Unfortunately, all I get is "can I go out with my friends" in the evenings.
I ask "where are you going to"
Answer "To the park" or "on a bench in the town"
To which I say "No"
But say "that if they have somewhere to go like one of their houses or a club or sporting activity with supervision, then that is OK."

I am totally against kids hanging aimlessly on a street corner. To me, thats where half the troubles begin, becuase the parents have no idea of what they are up to.

On the weekends, they go off during the day into Lincoln on their own or Cleethorpes "Swimming" "Pleasuer Island" etc. The same in the holidays.

For me, its all about what they do in the evenings. Aimless persuits outdoors is not on for me.

I have to say she is very understanding and doesn't argue, which is great.

Am I being too strict or not?

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:56 AM

When talking about a mutual acquaintence with a friend I said "he probably has more fear than he needs", and then I realized that I too have more fear than I need.

To sum up my sons, if I accelerate the car rapidly, my 10 year old says "slow down dad" and the 6 year old says "do it again".

The 10 year old is a new soul and a literalist. He has reason for his fear but since breaking his arm he has not gotten back on a two wheeler. He'll need a push just to ride with peers.
His brother is an old soul and may need to be pulled back from time to time.

I just thought of a subjective ratio.
The fear trust ratio.

For myself I give it an 85-15.
Maybe 90-10
There is a projection of fear here.
The neighborhood projects far more fear than trust but there have been murderers and killer snipers as well as an adimistration of fear which have traumatized people who at one time may have been more trusting.
I don't think it is a healthy ratio but I don't know if 50-50 is a good one either.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM

So Morty... you're saying I shouldn't leave Limpit alone with Micca?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Morticia
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 11:07 AM

I was brought up with Micca.....never did me any harm *cough*.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:44 PM

By telling children the world is more dangerous than it is we risk exposing them to more danger in the long run. Once they realise that parents and teachers have been telling them lies about how dangerous the world is, and how noone can be trusted they are liable to go to the other extreme and think all the warnings are lies.

It's rather similar to the way lies about the danger of cannabis or beer can backfire, and make people blasé about the things thta really are dangerous.

And another process thta happens is that in a worlds where kids are taughht that all strangers are dangerous, grownups, especially men. become frightened to take any notice at all of children, and that includes doing anything to help in situations where they might be at risk - lost in a shopping precinct or whatever.

It's a vicious circle, in which exaggerated fears aboutb dangers which have always beenthere make the social environment far more dangerous. If it's true that "it takes a village to raise a child", what happens when the child thinks the village is made up of monsters, and most of the villagers have learnt to turn their back on the child, because of the fear of being taken for monsters?

Vin Garbutt wrote a good song about this very aspect of the modern world.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:52 PM

McGrath, I can relate to that circle. You said it well.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:47 PM

Mrrzy, your "joke" was a big hit in the hot tub tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 01:04 AM

Depends on the environment, and parental values.

When my children were young, as long as they were together and wearing their life jackets, I figured they were safe. They'd come home when they were hungry.

Try transferring that peace of mind for a life in the city when they were five and ten. My eldest was very cautious. My youngest went wild. It was like going to the carnival every day. I was a wreck!

There are stages. Most of the stages were set by where we lived. My kids had to adjust to different expectations many times at many different ages.

At fifteen, my daughter went 'out' and slammed the door when I asked her where she was going. I chased her until she boarded a bus. I went back and got the car and overtook the bus, parked and ran to the bustop. I boarded the bus. When I attempted to order her off the bus, she convinced the bus driver that I was a crazy woman she didn't know. I was told to get off the bus!

At that point, it no longer matters what your rules, are.

You teach them all of your values and then they go out and try them out in society. When they find out that some of your values are no longer relevant with their peers, they question the truth of what they have been taught. Open defiance is very, very scary.

If you have a God or Goddess, you pray.

When she finally got home (very late), I handed her the keys. The 'power struggle was killing me.' I told her I loved her and that I would never throw her out on the street.

Within two weeks, she was back home and has been a very serious student for almost 15 years. She is well on her way to becoming either an architect or a university professor.

Just remember, the wild ones have the most potential. The trick is keeping them alive and out of jail.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:49 AM

I agree with a lot of what's been said. I think we see dangers now that weren't really regarded as dangers 50 years ago, and, on the whole, I don't really think that much has changed. Therre is far more media attention these days to things like abduction and abuse by strangers, but I really don't think it's any worse than it has ever been. We have to keep a sense of proportion and remember that the number of times these things actaully happen are very very small.

My really big worry is traffic..that HAS increased considerably since my childhood. You do have to grit your teeth and let them do things you'd really like to protect them from. This is a world they have to live in, and they need to learn how.

If you listen to all the awful stories of things that have happe3ned to other people's kids, you realize that whatever you do to protect them, there is always danger everywhere. The only way to keep from being a quivering bundle of nerves verging on madness is to close ones mind to it and judge on the basis of your own child. I find that if you look at it as dispassionately as possible, you always know when they are ready for the next hurdle.

If you hang on to them when they are trying to find their feet, they will rebel and do things anyway, but secretly. Much better to know exactly where they are and be in a position to apply certain sensible rules.

Richard keeps reminding me that in another 14 months he will be old enough to drive.....that is a scarey one!!

Love Lynne

Subject: Kids' Values with Peers vs Family Behavior
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 11:50 AM

I learned someting from a friend's experience wiuth his daughter, that has held up well for me and for friends with their kids.

And that is, at some point in their preteen through young adult years, you cannot expect to see your values reflected in your relationship with your child or in their relationships with anyone in the home. From their home behavior, you will probably think they have either rejected ALL of your sound parental advice and expectations, or never heard it to begin with. In fact, they will most likely seem to be whoever you would most NOT like them to be, at least part of the time, in the family dynamic.

BUT-- if you can see, in their friendships with peers, a glimpse of what you tried to mold them towards, you can be pretty sure that they not only heard you, they do indeed have the values and wisdom you tried to impart. If you push them away, of course, you will not be given a chance to see this at work, at all. But the true proving ground is in their peer group during this time, not in their families. You will not see it in their family relationships until they test their values and beliefs out thoroughly with their peers.

And be glad this is true-- that's where they will also learn the value of rejecting any crap you inadvertently passed along to them in the moments when you weren't perfect! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 07:30 PM

There is danger everywhere, there always has been, but usually with intelligent preparation it can be avoided. We expect to have prepared our kids better than our parents prepared us because looking back we know how close to the edge we came. In the end, as always, you do your best and hope for the best, but the odds are really better than they appear. Otherwise the species would not have survived this long.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: open mike
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 07:44 PM

roots....and....wings

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: MBSLynne
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:53 AM

Emphasis in media, story and legend, is always on the bad. Invariably the good outweighs it by an almost unbelievable amount. We just don't hear very much about the kids who go out and come home perfectly safely, only those who don't. The former are in the vast majority. It can tend to warp our perspective.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:41 AM

I agree Lynne, but when the Media insist on ramming things down our throats for years after the fact (the expectation that the whole world must stop for 2 minutes because some "famous" person got killed in a car wreck several years ago), it gets hard to avoid it.

Personal experience is also a huge factor. I have had a brother and a cousin killed in horrific accidents on the road, both through no fault of their own (at my cousins inquest, the wife of the other driver was his biggest asset, stating how reckless her husband had been), I know that it doesn't matter how prepared you think you are for accidents, you will live through that accident every single day until your little darling is at home with you. And if, Deities forbid, it actually does happen, then you realise that being prepared means absolutely nothing.

These two family deaths didn't make the national news, they were front page local for a couple of days, but now they're just statistics. And I for one don't want my little darling to be added to them.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Barb'ry
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:40 AM

As an only child, I was brought up in a very strict, 'over-protective' environment. Rules abounded - you can't go out with boys until you're 18, no discos, no going out after 8 o'clock, no staying the night with friends, etc. Me being me, there was only one course of action and I rebelled, big time. I developed a healthy dislike of my parents and did the opposite to what they ordered - whether I wanted to or not! And that's the important point, I think.

I always had a voice in my ear, telling me what was right or wrong but I mostly chose to disregard it because 'no one was going to tell me what to do'. The good thing was that in the end, I did listen to 'the voice' and calm down, get married and have 3 kids of my own.

Because I had (in my view) such an overstrict upbringing, I tried to think twice before deciding on anything with my kids, sort of, what would my parents have said and what would I then have done.. The answer I gave was hopefully, usually in the middle! With hindsight, I can see they (my parents) did things 'for my own good' but it's the way things were done that caused so much heartache.

So my recipe would be discuss, talk and talk some more - limit the outright 'NO' to things that really matter and let them make a few mistakes with the little things. It is so hard to let go - mine are now 18, 20 and 22 and it is still hard but so important if we want our kids to be responsible, mature adults.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 06:09 AM

I forgot to add in my post, that my daughter goes to her friends on a regular basis for a sleepover, and she has them over to our house for a sleepover.

I just don't want her walking home on her own in the dark, or hanging around street corners when its dark.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:53 AM

Susan, profound and hopeful words.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:41 AM

John O'L you say, "Our biggest problem is that she is 12 and he is 9. He thinks he's ready for whatever she's ready for."

A twelve year old should have more privileges than a nine year old. Of course those priviliges should be accompanied by more responsibility.

I think its time for the 'little talk' about the difference between wants and needs. Then you can go on to talk about how, at different ages, you earn privileges with responsible behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: holding on - letting go. A ? for parents
From: MBSLynne
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:57 AM

Yes Liz I agree entirely. A boy (17) in our village was killed by a truck when walking home one night two years ago. Every time my kids are out I imagine that and every other awful thing I've heard of happening to them, but as you said, preparation would not have helped at all. Accidents happen. We just have to keep our horror imaginings to ourselves (as far as the kids go) and let them go anyway. One of the painful parts of parenting. (Not that my son would have been walking home from a nightclub in the dark at the time of night it was)

Your other comment is very true too. We are having so many "2 minutes silences" for so many events that we are becoming de-sensitised and it actually then becomes an insult to those who have died.

Love Lynne