BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna

Subject: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MALAWI_MADONNA?SITE=CAWOO&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-10-13-14-36-55

A week appears to be a long time.

A week ago there was little boy in Malawi whose name few knew and even fewer appeared to want or to care much about.

Now it seems that how this little boy may be treated by Madonna and family is of great concern to the courts and the world.

At least his material needs will be met - which I suspect will not be the case with many others of his age in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:14 PM

Strikes me as somewhat absurd -- given the under-capacity of social organizations in Malawi charged with protecting children -- to put any such provisos on this one lucky boy making good his escape. If I were in his shoes I would do anything to be on a plane to England.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: NH Dave
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM

Many poverty stricken countries restrict the adoption of their children out of their country for fear of the black eye the adoption will give their country. They fear, and rightly so, that such adoptions prove that they are incapable of providing for these orphans.

No one said it was right, just that it plays up all of their other problems.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 02:13 PM

No doubt materially his life will be enriched by the adoption. I am sure there will be plenty of visits to and fro his home town. She has the resources to make this happen.

I can also see hourly documentaries aired yearly to update us on his journey. This will most likely financially reward all his family back home to some extent. It wouldn't look good to pan from shots of little David in his designer gear toddling into a private nursery to shots of his grandparents starving and thirsty.

Why she didn't choose to adopt one of the many children in the UK on the waiting adoption lists is her choice it seems. Should she be forced to take on a ten year old with behavioural needs who is the result of a failing care sytem? I don't think she should.

This is one of those times it appears when money does talk. Would David's life be better if he were left in the Malawi orphanage? Probably not. Would Madonna have adopted a child from UK if she couldn't adopt David? Almost definitely not.

Good luck to David and his family. Both in the UK and Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:07 PM

Would it take anyone else a mere week to get everything required?

Would she get better publicity if she'd taken Shereeen off the Estate and out of Chavdom?

Probably not... I'm actually glad the authorities are questioning his future with her.

She could do a lot more with her money than just succour one boy.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM

She could do a lot more with her money than just succour one boy.

I understand that she is.

But even if she wasn't - a liftimes commitment in succouring one orphan boy as one of her family, is a lot more than many of us who judge her - are prepared to do with our time and money.

Which may not be much when compared to Madonna's millions - makes us all practicly millionares compared to most of the third world.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:42 PM

By all accounts she is a fine parent, as is Mr. Ritchie. They, through their charitable organization, have put their money where their mouth is for the children of Malawi. In the process, apparently they have been taken by, and intend to adopt one of the children. Good for them.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 05:21 PM

Liz I think the one thing Madonna doesn't need is publicity. And to agree with mick - she does an awful lot for charity.

Which leaves us with the reason for her doing it, and lets not forget Guy in all this, is sheer love and good heartedness.

Some people don't like to see those traits in people they have already judged.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:20 AM

I've never liked Madonna, but she is surely improvong this childs life, can't be bad.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

I think it is wonderful she has done this, and benefits will outweigh the negative aspects of removing him from his home etc. I think however she should perhaps have chosen someone who had no family at all, which is the case for many, so he does not feel he has to choose between two fathers, etc., if indeed he does. But I am allfor it and the more publicity the better and she is doing this in conjunction with setting up a huge orphanage in the country. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:43 PM

Madonna only does things for publicity. Ok, so it benefits one boy....which is good...but she would not have done so if Africa were not the latest celebrity fad.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:59 PM

The woman makes me spit, everything she does has to be done in the glare of publicity.
Of course she wouldn't adopt in the UK, where it is unlikely she would have been allowed to adopt a black child. It is discouraged here for a child to be brought up by adoptive parents outside his/her racial heritage.
It's not what could be called a selfless act by any stretch of the imagination.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

She did her utmost to evade the glare of publicity on this one. Whether she is rolling out of a nightclub drunk or adopting a child she is going to be hounded by the press. She chose to do the latter. Having spent the last few years and millions of pounds in Malawi she is still being criticised. Ah well she won't lose any sleep over it.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: pdq
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:48 PM

Madonna is a sociopath. She won't lose any sleep over anything.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM

She speaks very highly of you.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: pdq
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:04 PM

Keep that quiet, will you. It never happened. Besides, it was along time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:27 PM

"She did her utmost to evade the glare of publicity on this one'
----------------------------------------------------------------

So what was all the video footage of her dancing like a dervish with the natives, and wearing her designer clothes while posing alongside the poor of that boy's village about then?

Some of you dopes are so easy to suck in.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:21 PM

"When you go to Rome do as the Romans do". I think she's got some there. It to bad more don't do the same. I dislike the woman but that's changing fast.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:26 PM

Will she breast feed him,lucky kid

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: billybob
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:03 PM

At least now we all know about the plight of the children in that country, we can all sponsor a child for a few pounds a year,Madge has given millions to an orphenage there and David hopefully will get us to help too by his being in the public eye. Come on you lot.... money where your mouth is!! What now Giok??

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 09:25 PM

Perhaps young black boys are once again becomming the fashion accessories for the well-to-do that they were in 17th Century London & other European capitals. Wonder if Madonna intends to dress him in livery?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:45 AM

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:48 AM

I am very cynical about this, obviously the price of a little black baby these days is £3million. Wonder if she got the crocodile skin handbag too?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,18 Oct 06 12.27 am
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:53 AM

The last GUEST wasn't me.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,Different than all of the above
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:17 PM

The only thing that stinks about this story is the British tabloid press villifying Madonna for her charity work, and being perfectly sexist about it as usual (I believe there is a celebrity couple adopting this boy, not a single female celebrity), feeding the usual British begrudgery frenzy.

No one on the planet is worse than the Brits when it comes to this sort of icon smashing begrudgery. No one. It just makes them all look so mean and awful and selfish, not Madonna.

I'm no Madonna fan, and I'm often cynical about celebrity charity work. But not always. There are celebrities who do a lot of good work on behalf of "good works" projects.

What bothers me most is the lies the British press keep spreading about this. Apparently, this is an adoption that has been in the works for far longer than a week. The Ritchies choice to adopt this particular child brings attention to one of the problems facing Africa as it relates to the AIDS crisis especially: that of fathers abandoning their children when the mother dies.

People don't like to talk about how sexist much of Africa is, and how much sexist "traditional African life" is contributing to the AIDs crisis, particularly the spread of AIDs to women of child bearing age because men refuse to use condoms and stop having sex when they contract the disease.

If the Ritchie's adoption of this child opens up even a few peoples' eyes to the crisis, it will benefit far more than just one child.

I'm no celebrity worshipper. For instance, I can't stand Bono. However, I have to admit the guy has been tireless in his campaign to erase third world debt. Now, I don't think that is the right solution to the problems being created by global capitalist domination, but at least he has put his money where his mouth is. The Ritchies seem to have put themselves on a path some celebrities take as they mature, and look for other ways to influence the world beyond their entertainment industry roots.

Lots of billionaires and millionaires do this sort of thing, so why the special scorn for Madonna? And not for Madonna and Guy both, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

We do seem to be a lot harder on our pop stars than our politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 01:41 PM

And how convenient is that for the politicians? And people wonder why the mainstream press is more interested in Madonna than what is happening at 10 Downing Street or Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

Problem with Madonna is that she is a Total narcissist of the worst order.

Having this child is not about the child, it is about her ego.

Go find out for yourself.

Madonna is incapable of talking or singing on any subject without somehow relating it back to herself in a way that somehow puts her at the centre of it.

Mark my words, when the official interview comes out, it will be about "how much I have grown" and "how this has all changed me" and she'll probably take the opportunity to say a few things about kabbalah while she's at it.

... Kabbalah's great because it really allows me to be honest with myself about who I am and how I really feel and I can really explore my real feelings in a real and honest way and I can ask my mind my body and my soul the same question and be in touch with myself ...

... and thinking about world affairs has really helped me broaden my mind and I have become so much wiser and I am growing out of my box and my boundaries and horizons are expanding and my life is taking a new turn ...

... and being a mother has made me reevaluate who I am and I have seen myself throughh different eyes, the eyes of a child ...

... and adopting a malawian baby has made me go so far up my own arse that I just have to tell the whole world all about how I feel about it and yet agaiin I'm causing huge controversy by highlighting the plight of ... erm ... a multimillionairess trying to adopt a child ...

... and nobody will ask me anything about the actual issues people actually face day to day in malawi, and I will not actually allow the conversation to be about that, because then it would be about somebody else and not me and this is about my journey and development and you could all learn so much from me and my uniquely valuable experience ...

... BLAH BLAH BLAH ...

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Kara
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:33 PM

I'm with Madonna on this one. The publicity will only do the children of Malawi good as 3 weeks ago most people didn't even know there was a problem in Malawi.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

whetther it's true or not will probably never be known for sure, but check this out

a bit embarrassing?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

If people didn't know malawi was poor before this then they are either incalculably thick or weren't interested in the first place.

If the latter is true, then reading and unending deluge of articles about madonna's problems is unlikely to change their attitude, and when this episode is over they will all go back to not caring.

The only articles I have seen on this issue have been about Madonna, and the issue of celebs adopting babies. This thread is about madonna and celebs adopting babies.

At no point have I seen the media, madonna or this thread turn round and start to discuss the issue of poverty in malawi.

That discussion remains the domain of relief workers and "loony" political activists.

I know a few relief workers, and I know which celebrities they feel gratitude towards for their help in the third world.

Joanna Lumley is one. But you didn't know that, because when the camera's turn up, she points them at the suffering around her. Whenn the journalists start asking questions, she refers them to the experts ie the locals and the relief workers.

On the hitlist are people like robbie wiliams and martine mccutcheon - and Madonna.

Why? because the story always ends up being about them and what they have experienced and how they have reacted, and the issue becomes sidelined in hhe blink of an eye.

When Robbie went to mozambique the issue was his depression. When Martine went to Ethiopia with water aid (all expenses paid) she went home having done nothing because the hotel wasn't up to scratch and it was just generally too hot and uncomfortable.

Madge is a Narcissist - iie self serving and self absorbed. Don't be fooled.

Try and see beyond loyalties here and tell me what has been brought to light other than the question of Madonna and celebs adopting babies.

PS 3,000,000 doesn't buy a baby, it buys public approval, cos of her work for "chariddee"

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: pdq
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:07 PM

I believe GUEST lox really hit the nail squarely on the head with the 04:12 post.

BTW, I don't think she thinks of others as people. Look at the picture of Madonna in the Malawi orphanage. She look like a spoiled teenager in a pet store saying "I want that one".

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:56 PM

I have no earthly idea what Madonna thinks. I'm neither defending nor villifying her for this adoption, because I simply do not have enough accurate information to make an informed judgment on it one way or the other.

From what I've read in the press accounts, nor does anyone else.

But the press lying about the terms of the adoption, and the                                                                                        "activists" opposing it being every bit as misinformed about the circumstances as the press (not to mention being white middle class Westerners) hasn't done much to convince me that Madonna deserves the negative press she is getting on this.

And to compare the papparazzi press following Madonna, to Joanna Lumley's self-effacing goodness--that's intended as a joke, right?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: billybob
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 06:13 PM

ok your views about Madge are yours!
However if we all sponsored a child in Africa we would not even notice the money and we would give a child a future, education and who knows what else.We may all have known what poverty there was and about the children who lost their parents to aids, but maybe the publicity has got to those peop;e who did not know?
We do not know how long the Ritche family have been in the process of this adoption, but now it is in the public domain how many of you are prepared to send money or sponsor a child?
Stop all this hypocracy , love her or hate her, get off your butts and HELP!!
You may get a lot more back than you think!Like letters of a childs progress at school even university!WE do not have to be millionaires to help... but it took one to get this response on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

Many celebs get hounded by the paparazzi

It's what they do with it that shows them up for who they are.

Madonna gets courted by the media because she is adept at manipulating them and putting herself in the limelight. It is her talent.

She is no more a serious contributer to any debate than Jade Goody or Paris Hilton. She's just a bit fitter and was once a bit more fanciable.

We're supposed to see her as somehow controversial. exactly what has she actually done that has been of any actual impact? can anyone remember?

Playboy? Sex book? songs about herself? films about herself? even her love song about guy ritchie is all about herself -

(This guy was meant for "ME" - many miles have "I" travelled - it doesn't extoll one virtue of his.) - ( oh no - sorry - it was a clever play on words -> this "guy" - wow!)

But nothing genuinely controversial.

And whilst on the subject of mass generalization and misinformation, the kind of "activists" of which I speak, and to which you refer, are not, as you appear to have assumed, busy villifying madonna, they couldn't give a s**t about her, being too busy trying to draw attention to the roots of the problem and actually tackle it in a way that is in line with actual understanding of it, as opposed to grandiose gestures of goodwill.

Do you see Madonna giving up her job as an entertainer to focus on her (apparent) new found responsibilities? do you see her message having any depth in terms of the actual issues?

Do you hear her songs saying anything else other than "Me Me Me" or does she still peddle the same lie in her lyrics that it's each man for himself in a material world, thus encouraging the rest of us to carry on behaving that way, with the result that our society and culture carries on sucking at the livelihoods of people in poor countries like Malawi, whilst they watch her video's in awe of the lifestyle that they can never have (because the planet simply cannot sustain it for everyone) and develop unrealistic aspirations of their own, or turn to violence to get some of what they've been miissing.

The difference between those such as Joanna lumley etc and those such as madonna etc is that the first lot try to assist people who know what they're doing, while the second lot think they're the messiah. In madonna's case, she thinks she's Evita Peron.

Finally, the paparazzi don't write articles, they take photographs.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: billybob
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:22 PM

Sorry but my point is that this thread should be about children in Malawi not Madonna,however without Madonna this thread would not be here! Sponsor a child , then tell us what you think?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:30 PM

You're right billybob.

More power to you for taking the initiative to raise the issue.

click here to see what the "activists" are up to

and sponsor a child

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:35 PM

sorry, I should really have sent you here

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:52 AM

I could have sworn I already posted this, but do not see it.

I am not familiar with this op/ed writer, but I thought she raised some good points and found it an interesting read:

Click Here.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:39 AM

I could have sworn I already posted this, but do not see it.

You get used to it........

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:16 AM

Madonna is an American citizen, and has every right to adopt the child according to US and Malawi laws. So this harping by the British press about the Ritchie adoption not following THEIR rules, is just bizarre beyond belief.

Do I believe there has been some speeding up of the process on the Malawi side? Absolutely. But not because it is Madonna. The process of third world babies being adopted by wealthy Westerners is what is at play here, not celebrity.

It's all about the money, and ability of the wealthy elite to buy poor peoples' babies, body parts, etc. So the rants about Madonna are just that. Rants against Madonna by a bunch of people who didn't give a shit about this issue before Madonna did what thousands of wealthy people do internationally every single year: buy poor people's babies.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:26 AM

"I could have sworn I already posted this, but do not see it.

You get used to it........ "

Shambles,

This is the least important aspect of Kat's post. To focus on it to the possible detriment of the thread (by redirecting the focus of the reader from the issues being discussed to the issue you have chosen to raise) is deeply offensive in light of the subject matter of the thread.

What do you have to say in response to THE LINK that Kat gave us?

Kat

I think it is absolutely superb and I would like to thank you for bringing it to our attention.

It clearly highlights how the question of altruism towards the needy should not be confused with the question of uprooting a child for the sake of ones selfish desire to have a little black baby for the collection.

A right doesn't excuse a wrong. Well done for giving money to an orphanage, but that does not give her the right to uproot a child.

I find the whole thing revolting.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:35 AM

Ok GUEST,

"The process of third world babies being adopted by wealthy Westerners is what is at play here"

"It's all about the money, and ability of the wealthy elite to buy poor peoples' babies, body parts, etc."

Are you saying you think this is a bad thing?

So why do you think we sjhould leave Madonna alone?

Because she's a celeb - that you like?

Guess what - Madonna is a wealthy westerner.

_______________________

Did you actually read Kats article? No I didn't think so.

Ok so you did but you don't understand what it said.

It spoke about WHY the brits have the rules they have.

It spoke about attachment issues, which again, you clearly don't understand.

It spoke about upheaval and referred to the long term effects of these things on a child.

Have you ever heard of personality disorders?

Please engage your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:30 AM

This is the least important aspect of Kat's post. To focus on it to the possible detriment of the thread (by redirecting the focus of the reader from the issues being discussed to the issue you have chosen to raise) is deeply offensive in light of the subject matter of the thread.

You may find this to be the least important part of the post I responded to - you have posted to provide your reasons for why you judge this to be so. I don't find this deeply offensive, as this is your view and you are welcome to express it in any thread you wish to (unlike me). You are also welcome to do this as a non - member of our forum (perhaps not for very much longer). Although what the point of posting such a judgement on a post responding to a comment - and not the original comment itself - escapes me. But it does follow a pattern.

I think it deeply offensive to our forum that some anonymous fellow poster (possibly kat herself) is permitted to now judge and silently delete, move, re-title my posts and those of others and provide no evidence or explanation for this imposed action - in the form of an editing comment.

Unlike us - at least kat knows for sure that the non-appearance of her post - is not due to it being silently deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:55 AM

My friends, a white couple, adopted a child in much the same way, from Viet Nam. No one was squawking about their choice. But they're not celb's. Once they went over seas it was done with within a week's time. Besides the news media couldn't have stired the tea pot into a tempest, no one would've given it a second thought.
What happens to a kid who doesn't get adopted in the UK?
OK, what happens to a kid that doesn't get adopted in the Sub-Saharaian region of Africa? In some African nations AID's is killing over 1000 people per day, that's not happening in the UK. The majority of the dying are women & girls. 20 million people have died from AIDS/HIV in Africa & 40 million are living with this today. The children of Africa need any kind of international aid they can get & adoption is one avenue. The majority of care givers their are grandmothers, their burden is self inflicted & it is killing them too but they are the hero's, if indeed there are any, just like adopting parents. If someone wants to adopt a child from there who's to say no. Any one who wants to cast the first stone at these parents, no matter who they are as along as they are willing & capable, should be held to public ridicule, including Yvonne Roberts who wrote that very bias editorial. Parentless kids don't need a woman like her, their lives are already tough enough.
Fair play to Guy & Madonna for their adoption, I don't hear of anyone whose in their shoes saying anything negitive. I know here in the US you can forget about trying to adopt a healthy white baby, it doesn't happen unless you've got eons of free time to wait. It still takes a village to raise a child & if the village cares what color the baby or where it comes from is then those living in it should not be raising children. I haven't seen much attention given to this AIDS crisis here on this forum & that is basically what this is all about. It's not about 2 high profile people that can't escape the trash writers that are are plague to their profession.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:22 PM

Yer dead on there, Barry.

Anyone, such as Mr. Lox, who has the energy to hyperventilate over celebrities the way he is here, isn't really interested in the welfare of an entire generation of African children being devastated by the AIDs crisis. They are interested in icon smashing, which is what Mr. Lox and the clueless twit of an editiorialist linked to above, are engaging in. The usual British begrudgery.

The Ritchies are stepping up to the plate and trying to help. They may have stumbled here, but they are making an effort, which is better than what Britney Spears and Kevin Federline are doing, yes?

Again, the idea that the adoption should be done according to British rules is just plain silly. The idea that the papparazzi would leave Madonna alone in Africa, and that when they didn't it was Madonna's fault, is beyond rational.

Mr. Lox, you are full of hot air and hate. Why should I listen to anything you say?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:04 PM

once again, the assumptions being made by GUEST are as far from the truth as they could possibly be.

I have agreed with the well though out approach of a Brit. That does not make me a brit, so your thinly veiled attempt to rouse my jingoistic fervour is unfortunately way wide of the mark.

You missed.

Kat (the american who posted the link to the article in question) is not a brit either, so to try and polarise this debate into one between Limeys and Yanks is not only cynical but pointless.

"Again, the idea that the adoption should be done according to British rules is just plain silly."

Again, you demonstrate a weak and shallow understanding of what the article said.

Read up on Attachment and abandonment issues and personality disorders, read about the consequences of upheaval on a child and reread the article.

I have enough relevant experience in this area to justify my passion. My passion is based in love, care and the engagement of my brain in best trying to understand how those things are most effectively nurtured.

There are 2 seperate issues here.

1. the problems of starvation and AIDS in Malawi

2. The issue of responsibility towards a child who is being adopted and moved far from his real family with whom he has a relationship.

The two issues are mutually EXclusive.

Like I've said before, well done for showing concern for an issue, but that does not give you the right to take risks with a childs psychological well being because you've taken a shine to him. We're not talking about a puppy.

The father is very poor, and wants the best for his son, so of course he will say "go on and take him." Any loving father would make that sacrifice.

Thing is, it's not about what the dad is prepared to sacrifice, it's about what the child needs. I am sure that if the father was aware of abandonment and attachment issues and what they mean to people who have them, he might find the whole process even harder than he must already be finding it.

To understand this you need to learn about what abandonment and attachment issues are.
_______________

Barry Finn

What did you know of your friends childs history? were the parents still alive? if they were, did they have contact with their chiild?

I'll bet the child had no contact with it's biological parents at all and so it would have been a case of "the sooner the better" to get the child adopted, so as to foster some kind of security and stability in the childs life.

The fact that your friends were well to do by comparison with most vietnamese would have been a bonus.

I may be wrong so feel free to correct me, but if I'm not then your friends were in a very different situation to Madonna.

In Madonna's case, the child has a relationship with his father. This is to be disrupted with no apparent indication of an attempt to ensure it be maintained.

Again, to understand why this isof such importance, you need to read about attachment and abandonment issues. They ae not trivial things and are to be taken extremely seriously.
______________________

So, in short, Malawi <-> Baby , seperate issues.

On issue of baby,

It's not about Madonna, or the Dad, but about the child and his emotional and mental health.

That constitutes neither hate, icon bashing nor hot air.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:52 AM

Lox you assume way to much & are so off base as to my friends that you're in a different ballpark altogether. It very late though, so please excuse me for tonight, I'll be back on this tomorrow.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 08:02 AM

Barry, in the interests of communication and clarity, please reread my specific response to you, and note the tone of it. There is no cause for confrontation (except in a purely academic sense) or for you to rush to the defence of your friends.

you said,

"Lox you assume way to much & are so off base as to my friends that you're in a different ballpark altogether"

I had said

"I may be wrong so feel free to correct me"

I made no assumption, I asked a question, then I "bet" on the probable answer.

So the key point of my response to your post isn't whether me and your friends are in the same ballpark, but whether Madonna and your friends actually have much in common beyond having adopted a foreign child.

I'm not, despite all appearances, so shallow as to get hung up on the question of whether adoption of foreign children is good or bad, but rather what circumstances are appropriate for a child to be moved from one guardian to another.

If someoneone wishes to offer help, one must first be sure what type of help is needed, lest one makes things worse. What does Madonna's new son need? First and foremost, a roof over his head, food on the table and the love of his family.

A little financial support for his father would have been more appropriate, though even that is a shallow "easy" solution to a tricky and complex problem.

Taking him to the UK (where, funnily enough, it is UK adoption laws which apply) to live in the public eye away from his family, raises a whole range of long term potential consequences.

These are not consequences that can be dealt with by a little counselling. They run deep and affect sufferers ability to interact within society properly. The associated disorders last for life and can be severely detrimantal to it's quality.

My guess was that your friends situation was different to Madonna's.

Either I'm right or wrong. Either their child had a relationship with it's biological family when it was adopted or it didn't.

I am genuinely curious to know the answer, and I think it would add value to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

Madonna is married to a British Citizen and lives in Britain, surely any adoption should adhere to local law, i.e., British adoption laws. If she wants to adopt this child under the laws of another country, then she should go and live there until it's all settled.

LTS