Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.

Subject: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:08 AM

Tuesday, Oct 17, is the official release date of Sting's new album "Songs from the Labyrinth" consisting almost entirely of songs written by the Elizabethan composer John Dowland (1563-1626). [The only exception is by Dowland's contemporary Robert Johnson (1583-1633).] Here's the track listing.

Sting is accompanied by Edin Karamazov, a Bosnian lute player, on the lute and archlute, and on 3 cuts, Sting plays the archlute himself. That's the only instrumentation, apparently. The archlute is a fantastic-looking instrument, having more tuning pegs than I could count in brief glimpses on TV.

Dowland is generally regarded as a classical composer, but in interviews, Sting has been calling him "the first singer/songwriter"—a concept that has already drawn the scorn of at least one blogger.

Sting is brave to do this. His voice will sound harsh to classical music fans that are used to the pure tones, standard vowels, and delicate delivery of classically trained and disciplined singers. And his pop fans might be mystified by the alien sound of Dowland and the spare arrangements.

Try these for comparison. I wasn't able to set up a workable direct link to the Sting excerpts at Deutsche Grammophon's web site; you'll have to go there yourself (click on the album title above) and click the appropriate links. These others came from various web sites found with AltaVista's audio search:

Track 2: Can She Excuse My Wrongs?
Martyn Hill and the Consort of Musicke.

Track 4: Flow, My Tears (Lachrimae)
Unknown performer

Flow, my tears; fall from your springs.
Exiled for ever, let me mourn
Where night's black bird her sad infamy sings.
There let me live forlorn.

Down, vain lights; shine you no more.
No nights are dark enough for those
That in despair their lost fortunes deplore.
Light doth but shame disclose.

Never may my woes be relieved
Since pity is fled,
And tears and sighs and groans my weary days
Of all joys have deprived.

From the highest spire of contentment
My fortune is thrown,
And fear and grief and pain for my deserts
Are my hopes, since hope is gone.

Hark you shadows that in darkness dwell,
Learn to contemn light.
Happy, happy they that in hell
Feel not the world's despite.

Track 10: Fine Knacks for Ladies
Unknown performer 1 - Unknown performer 2

I love it when artists stretch themselves this way. Somehow it reminds me of John Cleese playing Petruchio in a TV production of "Taming of the Shrew." I was astonished that he could get away with delivering Shakespeare's lines in such a conversational style.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:22 AM

I've just found something for my Christmas list! I love this music and it is good to see a modern pop singer brnaching out in this way.

I agree about Cleese as Petruchio. He was first class in the part.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:23 AM

I saw a televivion interview with Sting on his new Dowland release, in which he said that in Dowland's time, 400 years ago, 'every home contained a song book, and a lute'. Methinks this man sees the past through rose-coloured spectacles.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:25 AM

Yep, I'll buy it too. I have an LP of Dowland's music by Kathleen Battle and Christopher Parkening, a bit dull, Sting sounds more enthused.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:57 AM

B****y Real Player. It would not open the sound clips on the Deutsche Grammophon Website.

The blogger you linked to was simply airing his prejudices as he had not listened to the album at the time he wrote what he did.

Personally I think Sting has a point about Dowland as a singer songwriter, though Dowland mostly wrote music to words by others. I think Thomas Campion comes nearer to the modern concept of singer/songwriter as he wrote both words and music.

Dowland was a wonderful composer, and like all good composers, his work will stand a range of interpretations. I have a recording of Maddy Prior singing "Now O now I needs must part" almost in the style of a C & W Waltz and it comes off very well.

I was intrigued by this album when I saw a reference to it on the news last night and I will probably get it, if only out of curiosity.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:43 AM

He has been on several TV shows doing this music here in the States. It is stunning, and his accompanist is amazing. Last night I happened to watch Studio 60 on Sunset Strip (a TV show here in the States) and he was a guest. At the end of the show, he did Fields of Gold on the Lute.

Mick

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Ian Pittaway
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM

I am a lute player. At first I had reservations, not being a Sting fan and not having heard Sting do this material, though I was very pleased he was getting into Dowland. Saw him and Edin on the Culture Show a couple of weeks ago and was very impressed by his sincerety, his attitude of personal growth and learning through this music. It is wrong to think of Dowland as a classical composer: in Dowland's time the idea of 'classical music' hadn't been invented, and the classical style of singing (as Sting rightly points out) was still in the future. Dowland's songbooks were published for public consumption, for singing in people's own homes, so Sting certainly has a point in saying his style may be closer to the original intention than a modern counter-tenor and such. But does he do a good job? His lute technique isn't great in terms of sound production, but it's OK and he *does* say he's a learner and has Edin (who is fantastic) do almost all of the lute work. Heard them on the Early Music Show, Radio 3, last week. By 10 minutes in I was, much to my own surprise, whooping with joy at the freshness and vitality of his interpretations. And now, probably for the first time ever, an album of Renaissance lute music is in the album chart!!! Perhaps now folks like myself, instead of being asked what the instrument is, people will know because of Sting, and perhaps even come to love the music and explore further. Now that can't possibly be bad.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:50 PM

Brilliant idea, good for him. I love Dowland, and play it at home for relaxation sometimes(on guitar, dont own a lute). I found Sting's manner of singing it plain irritating, as a matter of fact, but I'll have another try to listen again in a week or two. Anything that draws more attention to this wonderful music cant be bad.And when I say Sting's way of singing it is ittirtaing, it's not half as irritating as the average classically trained singer's attempts. I don't think anyone has found the right way to sing Dowland, but full marks to Sting for making the effort and trying.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:32 PM

Thanks for the heads-up on this, Jim! This sounds very interesting.

I know there are folks who like to put Sting down, but I'm definitely not one of them. Actually, he's a darn fine musician and good singer in his own right. I've seen him on a number of occasions on a clip on the Classic Arts Showcase channel where he's playing classic guitar (the piece sounded familiar, but I couldn't identify it) as an accompaniment to a ballet dancer. Nicely done. And some time back, I heard (on one of the PBS pledge break specials, I think) Luciano Pavarotti and Sting doing Panis Angelicus as a duet. Actually as a sort of canon, with Pavarotti singing a line, followed by Sting singing the same line. Beautiful! Very interesting contrast of voices! And Sting did not come out "second best" because there was no second best in this. It was a musical collaboration that worked beautifully.

Sting is gutsy. He doesn't seem to be content to drop into a rut and just sit there. He experiments, and is willing to stick his neck out and try new and different things. Gotta admire that!

This is going to be a very interesting CD. I've always heard Dowland and other Elizabethan era songs sung by classically trained tenors (Peter Pears, etc.), usually taking a kind of delicate, artsy sort of approach. I like a lot of the songs, and although I can handle the accompaniments on the guitar (I play several lute pieces transcribe for the guitar), I've always figured my "frog in a rain barrel" bass voice wasn't right for this material. It will be most interesting to hear how Sting does it. I may even screw up my courage and give it a try myself.

Thanks again!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

"I may even screw up my courage and give it a try myself". Exactly, Don, well said. Sting's experiments may just encourage a lot of people to try this sort of thing. Great. That silly-voice classical approach has had a good run for its money and put a lot of people off 16th century music. It will be interesting to see if things could be opened up a bit if people try something different.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

Yup, I'm gonna try some! I just did some googling. Just putting "Sting" and "Dowland" into the search box, and the first on the list was this:   Clicky.

There's a lot of stuff on the internet. This CD is causing quite a buzz, apparently.

Then I went to Amazon and listened to several of the 30 second clips. I'm going to get the CD, and right now, I'm heading for the bookshelf where I have a copy of an Elizabethan song book compiled by Noah Greenberg. Lots of Dowland, Campion, et al.

Look out, you counter-tenors! Here comes the basso contingent!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:15 PM

I believe Sting was practising the lute 6 hours a day.....

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:51 PM

First time I ever heard John Dowland was at Heritage Society in Oxford many many years ago, when Richard Mabey used to play some of his tunes, in between everyone else's sea shanties and the post-skiffle, and Cecil Sharpe stuff. Very well received.

I'd like to see Dowland have the same acceptance and recognition in the English folk scene as Carolan has in the Irish. (In fact Dowland was very likely from an Irish family, with the name being a version of Doolin, but he seems to have been born in London.)

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:55 PM

Here is a YouTube video of Sting singing Dowland's "Come again".

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:02 PM

And while we're correcting things about Dowland, it might be noted that Sting (along with a large portion of the rest of the world) says
"DOW-land", to rhyme with "cow", whereas it should be "DO-land", to right with "dough".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:17 PM

Kevin - Diana Poulton in her authoritative biography is dismissive of the idea that Dowland derived (at least in any recent sense) from Dubhlain, Dowlan or O'Dolan, stating that the Dowland form was in use in England "long before his lifetime". She has a long section assessing Grattan Flood's claim that Dowland's father came from Dalkey and that Dowland studied at Trinity. She dismisses these claims and goes on to dismiss with high probability any Irish origin. She concludes: "Unless the registration of his birth should come to light it is unlikely htat this problem can ever be demonstably and unquestionably settled. Nevertheless, it seems reasonably probable that Dowland came from an English family whose name can be traced back to Domesday Book, and not from the Dowlinges, Dubhlaings, Doolans or O'Dolans in Ireland. That there was a Dowland at Trinity College is certain. There may have been others in Ireland at the same time, as Dr.Flood claims, but that any of these were relations of the composer so far remains unproved".

As for Sting's versions of them, I've so far only heard a bit on the TV yesterday and listened to a few of the clips online. At first listening it didn't sound great (and I am a great Sting fan);at least the lute playing sounded as if it might be good, but maybe not Sting's singing. However, the sound quality I heard in the clips wasn't good, so I defer judgement until later; I really would like them to be good!

Mick

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:23 PM

As she said "it is unlikely that this problem can ever be demonstrably and unquestionably settled."

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:35 PM

But "reasonably probable that Dowland came from an English family whose name can be traced back to Domesday Book", rather than "very likely from an Irish family"!

Mick

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,John
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM

Sting sounds like someone having a first stab at Dowland in a classical singing lesson. I can imagine why he would find it pleasurable but can't for the life of me understand why a classical label would think it worthy of distribution. I'll stick with the Paul Agnew versions on the Metronome label. There's a proper singer who as a tenor, though classically trained, hasn't gone all hermetically-sealed, antiseptic and lifeless like so many of the more usual countertenor recordings. An expert approach, maybe, but with the life left in it.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:52 PM

The reason they'd think it worthy of distribution is because they reckon, quite rightly, it will sell.

And it will be played by a lot of people who woudln't have come across this type of music otherwise. And in the folk context, I suspect there'll be a few people who'll decide that they'll have a go at singing the songs themselves, largely because Sting isn't that great a singer technically.

And that means the songs will be used in the way they were written to be used. (Here's another clip from that programme, put up on YouTube by someone.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:08 PM

I think you're going to find me a bit of a Sting advocate here.

A couple of points to ponder:

Question. Should the label "classical" be applied to these songs? Highly questionable. They do not come from what most musicologists and "classical" musicians regard as the Classical Period, which runs roughly for 1750 to 1850 and includes composers such as Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven. Following that is what is referred to as the Romantic Period, with such composers as Schubert, Chopin, and Tchaikovsky, along with opera composers such as Verdi, Puccini, Gounod, and Bizet.

Prior to the Classical Period was the Baroque period, with Vivaldi and Handel, early opera composers like Monteverdi (Handel taking a shot at it, too), with J. S. Bach pretty much the giant of the period. The lute and lute-like instruments were giving way to keyboard instruments.

But before that was the Renaissance Period, with Dowland and the Elizabethan era right smack in the middle. A golden age of music for the lute. And before that, the Medieval Period. Gregorian Chants, early church music, and such. And the Troubadours.

So strictly speaking, Dowland was not a composer of "classical music." As far as style of singing is concerned, the higher voices tended to be favored, hence the nasty practice of castrating young males with particularly good singing voices to keep their voices from changing—the castrati—with the nearest thing in sound to that kind of voice these days is the counter-tenor. But not every singer in those days was a tenor, counter-tenor, or castrato. There were basses and baritones just as there are now (incidentally, every male voice can be put into one of these catagories, whether trained or not, that's just the way it is:   Pete Seeger and Burl Ives are tenors, Ed McCurdy was a baritone, Gordon Bok is a bass, Bob Dylan is a . . . uh . . . er—   Well, moving right along, then), so I'm sure these songs were sung by lower voices as well.

We're used to hearing these songs sung by people like tenor Peter Pears or counter-tenor Alfred Deller. I do not believe I have ever heard them sung by any of the lower male voices—baritone or bass. But there is no reason why they couldn't be. There would be the matter of having to transpose the lute accompaniment to other keys more suitable to the ranges of lower voices, and although I assume that what I have seen represented as the accompaniments Dowland wrote for the songs, I'm not sure that they are really what Dowland wrote. What I usually see is a piano version of the lute accompaniment. What I am sure of is that lutenists in those days were quite adept at transposing and improvising, so even if they couldn't sing the songs in the keys as written, they could have changed keys and worked out perfectly acceptable accompaniments in those other keys, just as modern singers of folk songs do.

One thing that really stood out for me in the link to YouTube that MCgrath of Harlow posted above (by the way, thanks, Kevin) is that Sting is obviously enjoying singing the song. He's giving life to it.

Sting does not have a "classical" voice, but I've heard him a fair amount, singing things other than his original foray into rock. And the sucker can sing. I'm really glad he's giving this material a shot and that Deutsche Grammophon has the guts—and quite probably, the foresight—to go along with this.

Don Firth

P. S. And again, Kevin, thanks for posting that last one from YouTube. "La Rossignol" sounded familiar, and lo and behold! I have the music for the duet (cobbled for two guitars) in the back of The Christopher Parkening Guitar Method, Vol. 2. I have a guitar student who's playing her way through the Parkening method now. We're going to have to give this a shot!

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 11:02 PM

Rod Stewart , Joe Cocker , or Noddy Holder should have a go at it !

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:13 AM

Mayve this could be the next direction for Rusby/Keating duets. Not Dowland necessarily: Schubert songs perhaps?

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:30 AM

His name was pronounced dough-land, not dao-land (as shown by his "Semper Dowland, Semper Dolens"), so could conceivably be from the Irish name Dolan. But that in itself could, like many Irish surnames, be derived from a Norman name which existed in parallel in England.

As for Sting, I think he thought he was doing downloads.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:01 AM

I suppose if, for most of your life, you've been treated like some sort of god you think that you can do anything - water into wine, Sting?

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Ian Pittaway
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 08:50 AM

Shimrod, in the interviews Sting has done on Dowland, what has impressed me most is his modesty, his enthusiasm, his saying he is *not* a specialist but a learner in this music. In other words, he is precisely the *opposite* of what you suggest.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 10:11 AM

nah.. the smug old sod is edging his bets with false modesty..

also..aint he singing these songs
in that the same artifical 'posh' acting voice he puts on to do Noel Coward
or whatever else films/plays he sticks out like a septic sore thumb in..


now Noddy Holder would do justice to Dowland
if we fancy raw bellowing emotion!

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:47 PM

Sting appears on the cover of "BBC Music, and this classic music magazine features him in their feature article, "Renaissance Man," by Oliver Condy, pp. 29-33.
One Sting quote: "The rules are there to subvert. I feel that my job as a pop artist is to develop as a musician and bring into my sphere elements that aren't necessarily pop."
Classic lutenist Edin Karamazov accompanies Sting on the cd (Songs from the Labyrinth, DG) and plays one duet with him, and was the one to suggest that they do a Dowland album together.
Speaking of Dowland recordings Sting says, "I thought that no one was doing what I could do; I don't have that trained operatic voice but this music was composed around 1600 and the bel canto style wasn't invented until 100 years later when they had a full auditorium which encouraged a certain vocal technique. I imagine people would have sung without that technique. I feel that there isan intimacy to this music and I can do something that's really me- and still, I hope, respect the music."

Karamazov says Sting is the ideal musical colleague: "His voice is so pure and so child-like. It's perfect for renaissance music. He is a great musician- a natural-born singer with a beautiful voice."

The record, "Songs from the Labyrinth," in the words of the article's author, "is (now) in the hands of the dreaded critics..." From the posts of this thread, it is evident that some of them are contributors to mudcat.

Sting's words on the release: "If people like it, public or critics, then that's the cream on the cake. If I was doing a Dowland record to make money, you'd shoot me! I did it out of love, I did it out of curiosity, a sense of adventure... I can't really explain why. My instinct told me it was right for me."

Sting sang Dowland at LSO St Lukes on about Oct. 4 (lso.co.uk/lsostlukes)

Digression: BBC Music, in a review by Terry Blain of Paul McCartney's new recording, "Ecce cor meum" (EMI) gives 4 stars (out of 5), but says the results ... are in no way sharply distinctive."
Blain says "The classical learning curve, however, seems somehow to have squeezed much of the lyrical fecundity and musical inventiveness out of one of the greatest melodists in the history of popular music history."

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:48 PM

Yeah, I had a hunch the "For no rational reason whatsoever, I hate Sting!" crowd would be chiming in sooner or later. Oh, well, give it as much attention as it deserves, then move on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: RB3
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM

You know, I actually really appreciate the "non-classical" aspect of this, because as has been pointed out, a good number of people who were actually alive at the time and were learning and playing the music were not professionals. So even if there was an "accepted method" of singing/playing it at the time, they weren't likely doing it "right", and that was perfectly fine.
I have been particularly looking for recordings of people singing medieval music without the "classical sound" because when attempting to do reenactment and things of that nature, it makes sense to learn how it actually would have been sung by everyday people rather than professional musicians and church choirs.
I absolutely don't think it's valid to say that he's singing it wrong or he shouldn't sing it because he's not trained that way, because if the only people allowed to sing and play music were the ones who were trained in specific ways, music of many types would simply die out.
I particularly find it an odd opinion on a site which is primarily dedicated to folk music, which, if you apply those rules to it, could never be performed.
-RB3

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 02:45 PM

I suppose this is a prejudice like any other, but one of the things I remember from my brief stint in a church choir (in a very small church where they had to practically beg people to join the choir) is my annoyance at the choir director telling us we should pronounce vowels in a different way than we did in ordinary speech, e.g. "supplicate" should be "sup-plee-cate." I remember thinking, if my ordinary pronunciation isn't good enough to worship God with, why am I here?

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:40 PM

BBC Radio 3 has portions of the Sting concert on The Early Music Show. Program of Oct. 8

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:16 PM

I recall sitting with a couple of friends in The Folklore Center in Seattle back about 1960 when the proprietor of the shop was playing some records from a shipment that had just come in. One was a recording of Win Stracke singing folk songs and ballads, accompanied on the guitar by Richard Pick.

Win Stracke was deeply involved in folk music, had appeared on Studs Terkel's program many times, and was one of the co-founders, with Frank Hamilton, of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. I don't know if Stracke had studied voice or not, but he had a very smooth, rich baritone and he sounded trained. Richard Pick was a classic guitarist, had established his own classic guitar school in Chicago, and had written a couple of excellent manuals for beginning and intermediate guitar students. Indeed, my first classic guitar teacher started me with one of Richard Pick's books, First Lesson for Classic Guitar (I've always thought it a touch ironic that a classic guitarist—who uses his right-hand fingers to play with—should have a surname like "Pick."). Pick, of course, was playing a classic, nylon-string guitar, and his accompaniments struck me as tastefully restrained as befit the songs, with no classical pyrotechnics. It was a very well done recording with good songs well sung. But—it was obviously not a field recording.

As we sat and listened, a singer who had just blown in from Berkeley (hitchhiked up with his guitar) walked in, listened for about thirty seconds, then turned purple and had a temper tantrum. He pointed at the turntable and shouted, "That man" (having no idea of who "that man" was) "has no right to sing those songs! He's an opera singer!" (which he wasn't, nor was he singing like one, but his voice was smooth and rich) "People like that shouldn't be allowed to sing folk songs!"

Well, now! And this from a guy who was a self-proclaimed anarchist!

And later, at a song-fest, he took off on me the same way. I've taken voice lessons, but I don't think I sound like an opera singer. And I play a nylon-string classic guitar. I'm a bass, and a few people have told me that I sound a bit like Gordon Bok, but that's probably because I've stolen a lot of songs from Gordon's records and I can sing then in the same keys he sings them in. I've always thought I probably sound more like Johnny Cash without the southern accent, but then I've inside my own head and I can't really hear me.

So what was I supposed to do, fall on my knees, beg his forgiveness, and cut my throat on the spot?

Tough Nabiscos, Charlie!

Sting does not have the greatest voice in the world, but he does sing pretty well. So he wants to take a shot at playing the lute and singing songs from the Renaissance period. More power to him, say I! He probably sounds more authentic singing these songs than a whole regiment of highly trained counter-tenors. I'm very glad that he's doing this, and I put those who say he shouldn't in the same category as that yo-yo from Berkeley.

Music Nazi.

(mutter mutter)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:31 PM

RB3 said:

I absolutely don't think it's valid to say that he's singing it wrong or he shouldn't sing it because he's not trained that way, because if the only people allowed to sing and play music were the ones who were trained in specific ways, music of many types would simply die out.

If only the finest bird might sing, the forest would be a very silent place.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:44 PM

I can't see why Sting's approach is deemed so innovative. Loads of folkies have had a bash at Dowland and Campion in recent years (Maddy Prior... Jim Moray... John Connelly...). Is it just old Stingo just has a bigger marketing budget?

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:19 PM

Mr Firth,

Actually I do have 'rational' reasons for 'hating' Sting (my mother taught me never to hate anyone - but I do despise the bastard!). You see I think that our entire culture has been hi-jacked by commercial rock music and bloody rock stars. This 'virus' has cheapened and degraded everything. Music has become a meaningless and monotonous noise to be passively consumed along with (especially in the UK) massive quantities of alcohol and drugs - the latter, of course, in emulation of the grossly overpaid and over-hyped rock stars.

There was a time when music was beautiful (yes, even rock music was, whilst not exactly beautiful, at least exciting, once).

So, Sting has discovered Dowland, has he? How long before he adds electric guitars and a drum kit?

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:43 PM

Shimrod - you sound very much like you'd favour cursing the darkness over lighting a candle...

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:18 PM

Shimrod, you might wait until that actually happens before you run out and lynch Sting.

I don't think anybody said anything about "innovative." But Sting's venture into this music will certainly make it better known to a wider range of people who would find his singing of it more palatable than the singing of, say, Peter Pears. And it has made it more accessible to singers such as myself, who, I admit, was perhaps a bit intimidated by the fact that the songs of Dowland and other Renaissance composers are heard sung only by classically trained tenors and counter-tenors, so assume that my deeper voice is not suitable for this kind of song.

I don't mean this as any kind of put-down to Sting, but hearing him sing these songs and bringing them off nicely, I ask myself, "Well, if he can do it, why can't I?"

There you have it.

It's interesting to note that often the same people who say that Sting's voice is wrong for these songs are the same people who run out and up-chuck at the mention of Richard Dyer-Bennet, whose voice would conventionally be considered perfect for these songs.

Since when should a particular type of music be limited to a small, select coterie? And why should a particular popular singer be bad-mouthed because he has the guts to follow his own musical interests wherever they lead him and breaks the mold in the process? Just because he's best known for one type of music, why should he be restricted to doing only that? Who makes these rules, anyway?

Perhaps Sting's recording will precipitate a renaissance of interest in Renaissance songs.

And perhaps that's innovative after all.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:35 PM

i'd have more respect for this project if stig
just sang it in his normal accent/voice
instead of that 'put on' posh affectation

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:49 PM

Listen to them, GUEST. No "posh affectation" that I could detect. He sings them pretty straight out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 07:47 PM

If the nameless one detects a difference in his accent/voice, perhaps it coudl be that this time he's singing without affectation.

Seems to me that he is pretty straightforward in his singing here.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:04 AM

'McGrath of Harlow' - you're right of course! I suppose I should congratulate Sting for breaking the mould ... but why do still despise the bastard? Probably because there's still a feeling that he's just another rock demi-god indulging himself and expecting his adoring worshippers to fall over themselves to praise him.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:21 AM

I have only heard Sting singing Dowland on programmes such as the Culture Show and I really wanted to like it, but I found his voice flat and dreary. I can't bring myself to search out any more recordings as the sound made me feel really depressed.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:25 AM

I bought the CD yesterday and played it through several times last night. I like it. For all the sting haters, just imagine a geordie bloke singing Elizabethan songs in a plain voice, accompanied by a world class lutenist, because that's what it is. It isn't a 'rock God' production. He makes a fine job of the four part harmonies on 'Fine Knacks.'
I prefer it to the florid Operatic versions I have owned in the past.If you try and sing along with it, you should find that Mr sting has put a hell of an effort in his breathing control and phrasing.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:07 AM

Well he's from Wallsend, so not really a Geordie.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:16 AM

PEDANT ALERT: Please delete 'geordie' from my last post, and add 'Wallsend'

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 10:28 AM

Jim - First let me thank you for starting this thread. Having practiced Renaissance music on the guitar (no money for a lute) and researching a lot of music I found a lot of folk songs with these composers, some of them more than bawdy.

I absolutely agree with Ian about his statement: It is wrong to think of Dowland as a classical composer: in Dowland's time the idea of 'classical music' hadn't been invented, ...
We can hear the difference of approaches in Jim's first post: Unknown performer 1 - Unknown performer 2. In 1 you can hear the choir thinking "it is old and classic, it must be celebrated", while in 2 they are just singing the song as joyfully as it should be.

Topsie is criticizing: ... he said that in Dowland's time, 400 years ago, 'every home contained a song book, and a lute'. Methinks this man sees the past through rose-coloured spectacles. But Sting seems to be right; it wasn't every house where you found a song book and a lute, but with the townsmen, or should I say bourgeois, it is true. The class who owns a piano now owned a lute in former times. (It also is reported of D. Martin Luther, who used the lute for composing his hymns, and played just for fun).

If Sting goes back to the roots, let him do it. If it sounds well, the better.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:00 PM

I was watching this Monday's Studio 60, and loved the song Sting was doing (in the plot of the show), to test the sound system -- just casually, on the stage, so it wasn't announced, and we didn't get the full song or the title. But it sure sounded like music from the 1600's to me. I was kind of hoping there'd be a reprieve, but sadly, no.

Did anyone here catch the song, and if so, know the title? I'd like to find it again, and maybe learn it -- and it certainly had a bawdy refrain (or even erotic), if you know the 17th century euphanisms.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:25 PM

Wilfried
My attitude was not so much critical as amused that he was either unaware of the existence of more humble homes, or thought them irrelevant.
I don't know what it is like where you live, but if the lute owners of former times are the equivalent of those who own pianos today they would be a minority - certainly nowhere near 'every home', even among townspeople or the bourgeoisie.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Guest (better remain Anon)
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 06:34 AM

I like Playford, Praetorius etc, but Dowland leaves me cold.

Bought a Dowland LP in a car boot a few years ago to see if any of the pieces were playable (pinchable), but found that it was difficult to distinguish any actual tunes - they were more a "Stream of Consciousness" than tunes. A bit like Wagner - always promising to reach a really rousing tune but never quite getting there (with a very few obvious exceptions)! Tried the Dowland LP at 33 rpm, then 45 rpm, then, in desperation 78 rpm - still no recognisable tunes!

Sorry folks.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 06:37 AM

Your loss, Anon. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:54 AM

Classic FM - Sat - evening I believe.

I will be I will be two-stepping, onestepping &/or Mamou Waltzing.

Bristol - The Folk House - that's where.

http://bristolcajunfestival.com/

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:32 AM

CapriUni said, in part:

I was kind of hoping there'd be a reprieve, but sadly, no.

I know there are some here, in the context of Sting singing Dowland, who would like a "reprieve", but I really think, from context, you meant you were looking for a "reprise". :-)

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Strollin' (at the Mill)
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:41 AM

He sounds a bit like 'Amazing Blondel'. But not as good.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Hank Williams
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:37 PM

Here's a spirited discussion. I haven't heard Dowland's name mentioned for a hell of a long time... Congratulations, Sting, for bringing a worthy obscurity forward.

Now if it were that opportunistic wanker Elvis Costello (currently "rescuing" New Orleans music with the severely compromised Allen Toussaint), I'd feel more critical. But Costello, whose "passionate" affectation is a strangulated bleat, is mercifully preoccupied. Who didn't love his furry, bearded, excursion into The Grateful Dead, or his rifling though Country standards? And his resurrection of Burt Bacharach was priceless. But wait: he'll find out about Monteverdi one day and be back with a new pair of glasses and a different hat. If you really want to bash a popstar, I vote for Declan.

But Sting gets a pass on this one. He's showing rockers and popstars that it's possible to grow up, dig into other forms, and continue developing as artists. His singing (in the two clips that I've heard) is markedly different from his pop style, and those who are waving the "posh" stick are off base.

He'll be bashed for not doing it to the standard which doesn't actually exist, and he'll be bashed for having a pretty wife, and he'll be bashed for thinking he's better than us because he's not overweight, but not by me.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Desdemona
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:52 PM

How fascinating! I love Dowland, and have a number of 'traditional'recordings of his music by the likes of Paul O'Dette (a few years ago I saw him at Harvard with Ellen Hargis--an unbelievably pure voice!--and David Douglass; it was astonishing, and the arch-lute *IS* a crazy-looking instrument, all right!); this should be really interesting to hear how Sting interprets it. Personally, I've never been a big fan, but his willingness to branch out this way is admirable; I'll definitely give it a listen!

~D

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:19 PM

I know there are some here, in the context of Sting singing Dowland, who would like a "reprieve", but I really think, from context, you meant you were looking for a "reprise". :-)

So true, DaveO, thanks for the correction.

There are many things in my life, however, that do have me wanting a reprieve. So, maybe that was a Freudian slip.

Anyway, back to my original question: Did anyone here catch and recognize that song snippet? I don't remember the words exactly, but the refrain had a line something like:

"To see, to hear, to touch, to die..."

(And since, in Dowland's time, "die" was a euphanism for sexual climax, such a song on national TV is a reprieve from such current bawdy fare like "It's hard out here for a pimp")

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:56 PM

CapriUni

The song sounds like Come Again:

Come again:
Sweet love doth now invite,
Thy graces that refrain,
To do me due delight,
To see, to hear, to touch, to kiss, to die,
With thee again in sweetest sympathy.

from The First Book of Songes or Ayres.

Diana Poulton agrees about the meaning, writing of the song "...(and surely here the words 'to die' are used in the figurative sense, meaning to reach the final transports of physical love)"!

Mick

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:46 PM

Yes, that's it! Thanks, Mick. Now, I can look up the whole song.

I'm familiar with that second meaning of "to die" through being a student of Shakespeare. Knowing of this simple idiom/slang can transform many lines of Elizabethan and Jacobian writing from romantic hyperbole to earthy humor.

And in an era where sex has become an Internet commodity, anything that gets us back to the idea of an intimate, sensual conversation is a good thing, in my (not so) humble opinion.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:49 AM

I wuz wrong - Sting on Classic FM 4pm they said - in discussion with one of the regular presenters. (GMT +1 hour here).

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:09 PM

Just listened to part of the Sting broadcast on Classic FM, with some of the songs played. It's available to play or download here: Sting on ClassicFM.

Mick

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:37 AM

Sting's newest gig was Sunday evening, during the 13. bestowal of the Echo Classic Award, in the Munich Sinfony Hall.

"Bild" (the German "gun paper" - you must hold it horizontally, otherwise the blood drops out) reported rather patronizingly:
The performance of the rock legend - totally bizarre. He muttered 16th century songs endearingly, picking the lute honestly. And discovered at the end: "I'll stay a rock musician!" Better so.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:28 PM

"Classical music" is a familiar,if not satisfactory term, signifying art music. Whereas Don is quite right in another sense of the term.

   If I go to a classical music concert, I'd expect anythng from "Sumer is a-coming in" to Jonathan Harvey, and not usually including pop,jazz,blues,rock,military,folk,popular (Berlin,Porter etc.),gospel,cxountry,world. You're supposed to get my drift without nitpicking.

   in THAT sense, Dowland is an art composer.

   The boundaries are not watertight,and are blurred.


   I think it's terrific that non-classical singers sing art music in their own ways. I doubt that in Dowland's day, only professionals sang his songs. And surely we can decide individually for ourselves who we like singing whatever. Is there universal agreement about the quality or pleasureableness of ANY performer?   Really? Let a thousand singers bloom,I say. And it's up to us to be discriminating.
I look forward to Madonna's Dowland, Sugarbabes' Dowland, the traffic wardens', the accountants'.


(Tho' I'd love to have heard the imaginary disc 'Victor Silvester plays Schoenberg).




    ivor

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:40 AM

Do you think that this attraction will last longer than his attempt at Pirate Shanties?

Barry

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: GUEST,Mhairi Lawson
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 07:09 AM

The rendition of the song not by Dowland on 'Labyrinth' is very expressive and quite stylistic - the vocal multitracking gives me seasickness, and the elongated diphthongs are hysterical - it's definitely not boring like many classical recordings certainly are...

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: RB3
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:09 PM

I'm familiar with that second meaning of "to die" through being a student of Shakespeare. Knowing of this simple idiom/slang can transform many lines of Elizabethan and Jacobian writing from romantic hyperbole to earthy humor.

That puts a whole other spin on Hamlet's "To Be Or Not To Be" speech, doesn't it? :)
-RB3

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:09 PM

By this time everyone has completed their dissection of Sting and his performance, stored the parts in formalin, and rendered their opinion, informed or not, but here are a couple of footnotes.

The reviewer of the cd in BBC Magazine gave it three stars- very good, but not great. He liked Sting's approach to the vocals.

In the August 2006 issue of BBC Music, reviewer Paul Riley gives lutenist Nigel North five stars (tops!) for his cd, "DOWLAND- Lute Music, vol. 1: Fancyes, Dreams & Spirits," Naxos 8.557586.
"Pre-eminently the lutenist's lutenist, North is steeped in the music- and technically beyond reproach." ... Elevated music-making indeed. And at bargain price, a steal!"

Quoting further from the review, Dowland has been called "one of the great 'blues' artists of the 16th century by Joanna MacGregor," and "North does melancholy to the manner born;..."

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:40 AM

I've heard Kathleen battle and I've heard Sting. I like them both, although their styles are very different. As PDQ Bach said, "If it sounds good, it is good."

You can hear extensive sound samples and read what Sting wrote about learning to play the lute and singing the music on his DG website.

That archlute is complex and fascinating, and I love the way Sting plays it. Can someone tell me more about it?

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:58 PM

I just listened to Kathleen Battle singing Dowland songs on her CD in which she is accompanied by Christopher Parkening.   Her voice is sweet and clear and her diction excellent, unlike Sting. I still like Sting's singing and musicianship, even though he doesn't have a pretty voice. My real surprise on comparing the two recordings is that I prefer Sting's lute playing to Parkening's guitar playing.

Subject: RE: Crossover alert: Sting does Dowland.
From: CapriUni
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:22 PM

Last night, my local PBS station aired an episode about Sting's making of this album, filmed mostly in his home, featuring interviews with Dowland scholars, along with his performance of some of the songs. Here is the official site for the show: Great Performances: Songs From the Labyrinth.

During the show, Sting makes the statement (that I have seen several times before, in my career as a student of literature) that the "melancholy" celebrated by Elizabethan artists is distinct from our modern understanding of clinical depression: "melancholy" is noble, and a philosophical outlook on the meaning of life; depression is just a sickness.

...After hearing the lyrics and tunes of these songs, however, I'm not so sure (especially Come, Heavy Sleep). I suspect that anyone making such an argument has had the good fortune not to know what real depression feels like.

However, I do think that there is something noble in these songs of melancholy -- a fight and striving to break out of depression's isolation, to communicate, as clearly as you can, what you are feeling. That's a fight for life, and that's noble.