BS: Students told to fight back

Subject: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:33 PM

I found this story on SRS's "I read it in the newspaper" thread but I'd like to reprint it here in order to open it up for a larger discussion. Would you want your kids to fight back if a gunman showed up in their schoolroom?

From the Associated Press:

Students told to fight back if gunman attacks

The Associated Press


BURLESON - Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they got - books, pencils, legs and arms.

"Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success," said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools.

That kind of fight-back advice is all but unheard of among schools, and some fear it will get children killed.

But school officials in Burleson said they are drawing on the lessons learned from a string of disasters such as Columbine in 1999 and the Amish schoolhouse attack in Pennsylvania last week.

The school system in this working-class suburb of about 26,000 is believed to be the first in the nation to train all its teachers and students to fight back, Browne said.

At Burleson - which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students - the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquets.

Students are also instructed not to comply with a gunman's orders, and to take him down.

Browne recommends students and teachers "react immediately to the sight of a gun by picking up anything and everything and throwing it at the head and body of the attacker and making as much noise as possible. Go toward him as fast as we can and bring them down."

Response Options trains students and teachers to "lock onto the attacker's limbs and use their body weight," Browne said. Everyday classroom objects, such as paperbacks and pencils, can become weapons.

"We show them they can win," he said. "The fact that someone walks into a classroom with a gun does not make them a god. Five or six seventh-grade kids and a 95-pound art teacher can basically challenge, bring down and immobilize a 200-pound man with a gun."

The fight-back training parallels the change in thinking that has occurred since Sept. 11, when United Flight 93 made it clear that the usual advice during a hijacking _ Don't try to be a hero, and no one will get hurt _ no longer holds. Flight attendants and passengers are now encouraged to rush the cockpit.

Similarly, women and youngsters are often told by safety experts to kick, scream and claw they way out during a rape attempt or a child-snatching.

In 1998 in Oregon, a 17-year-old high school wrestling star with a bullet in his chest stopped a rampage by tackling a teenager who had opened fire in the cafeteria. The gunman killed two students, as well as his parents, and 22 other were wounded.

Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.

"If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who's to blame," she said. "How much common sense will a student have in a time of panic?"

Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.

"You're telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields," he said. "If my school was teaching that, I'd be upset, frankly."

Some students said they appreciate the training.

"It's harder to hit a moving target than a target that is standing still," said 14-year-old Jessica Justice, who received the training over the summer during freshman orientation at Burleson High.

William Lassiter, manager of the North Carolina-based Center for Prevention of School Violence, said past attacks indicate that fighting back, at least by teachers and staff, has its merits.

"At Columbine, teachers told students to get down and get on the floors, and gunmen went around and shot people on the floors," Lassiter said. "I know this sounds chaotic and I know it doesn't sound like a great solution, but it's better than leaving them there to get shot."

Lassiter questioned, however, whether students should be included in the fight-back training: "That's going to scare the you-know-what out of them."

Most of the freshman class at Burleson's high school underwent instruction during orientation, and eventually all Burleson students will receive some training, even the elementary school children.

"We want them to know if Miss Valley says to run out of the room screaming, that is exactly what they need to do," said Jeanie Gilbert, district director of emergency management. She said students and teachers should have "a fighting chance in every situation."

"It's terribly sad that when I get up in the morning that I have to wonder what may happen today either in our area or in the nation," Gilbert said. "Something that happens in Pennsylvania has that ripple effect across the country."

Burleson High Principal Paul Cash said he has received no complaints from parents about the training. Stacy Vaughn, the president of the Parent-Teacher Organization at Norwood Elementary in Burleson, supports the program.

"I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist," Vaughn said.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

Good advice only if one can be sure that the gunman's intention is to kill many children anyway (the flight 93 scenario).

Bad advice if the gunman's aim is to use the children as hostages with something else than killing in mind (the pre 9/11 scenario in most hijackings). If his other aim is threatened by kids throwing things at him he may feel he has to use his gun on the kids contrary to his intitial intentions.

In the worst German school shooting the gunman only intended to kill teachers (killing two kids as well by misfortune). I wonder what he would have done if his former school mates would have acted as recommended. My guess is that he would have killed more kids and less teachers which I would not consider a success.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:08 PM

If I were in the 2nd room he entered, and had heard shots and screams, I think I would try to stop him...but if I just found a gun pointed at me, I would sit still unless I had a VERY good reason not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:12 PM

I know that when I was in high school we would have fought back. But that was long ago, and when a student brought a gun to school it was as a prop for a speech on firearms safety -- and no bullets were included.

Personally, I think that if the teacher and kids are all going to be killed anyway, why not fight back?

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:26 PM

"some fear it will get children killed"
If no one fights back, there a good chance a LOT will die...

If someone fights back there's a chance that SOME might die....

You decide what odds you like better

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:34 PM

I think that there's been a real change in the attitude of people in regard to "not fighting back" since September 11, 2001. Look how many times a drunk or psychotic airline passenger was subdued by passengers and crew.

Somewhere the idea of "it's better for some to be hurt or dead than for everyone to die" has been reborn.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

If one must be a target, I would rather be moving, yelling, flinging, and generally doing whatever I could to make the shooter miss or, better, drop the weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:46 PM

There is an analogy here to the updated instructions in combatting bears.

The official word used to be to play dead. Drop to the ground, they said, curl into a fetal position, clasp your hands behind your neck and hold still.

That advice still holds for the brown (grizzly) bear. A brown, they say, usually just wants to punish you and incapacitate you. The biggest risk, they say, is in stirring before the bear has actually left the vicinity. The brown tends to withdraw and just watch you to make sure that you are no longer a threat.

The advice on black bears has changed dramatically. The official word now is to fight back- punch it, aim for its eyes, grab a branch or a hammer or anything else that comes to hand - make yourself as 'large' as you can, make as much noise as you can, anything to unsettle it and help it rethink its plans.

If it has you down, the black bear, they say, may decide that you are edible.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:47 PM

If anyone is going to play hardball with me, I'm gonna pitch. That's it. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:22 PM

I agree with you, Peace.

And we've taught the next generation of our family the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: pdq
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:30 PM

Knowing that kids will fight back will deter some of the potential perps from trying anything in the first place. That is a fact even though it cannot be translated into statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:23 PM

In Australia, we regularly get reports of 70 year old pensioners beating up their attackers with whatever they have to hand - unfortunately the percentage is not all that great of success.

Of course there was one nice quiet old guy who was a bit of a surprise to his attackers - an ex heavyweight champ... the attackers lived...

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:50 AM

pdq...EXACTLY, this approach has as much value in terms of deterrence as in practice.

Guns tend to 'overawe' people...take that power away from the gunman (before he enacts anything) by letting him know a gun WON'T get him ompliance from his would-be victims, & he has lost some of his power. Stands to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 09:30 AM

Little old lady in, I believe it was Dallas, in her nineties and wheelchair-bound, was sitting up reading in her "library" at 2 a.m. Two youngs thugs kicked in the door, intending to rob her of the money they were sure this obvious push-over had stashed away.

She reached into the pocket at the side of her chair, pulled out a Colt Single-Action .45 revolver and shot both of them dead. A third guy, who was watching the door, fled and taken shortly after by the police (which is where the cops got the story).

The attackers never thought to check her background: grew up on a ranch, former lady cop, ex-woman Marine. The three assailants were all well-known druggies and street punks; the lady didn't even have to go to the station to make a statement.

If you don't let yourself be intimidated you can't be.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:17 AM

We don't hear about the incidents where it didn't work, do we.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:48 AM

I am a school teacher. The school I teach in has a lock-down policy, code words, etc. However, in discussion of a flawed policy, a colleague and I have already decided that we will get our kids as secure and out of the way as possible and then go do what we can. Sitting quietly in a classroom waiting for some guy or guys with guns to come shoot us looks like a pretty stupid idea to me. If I am going out like that, some MF will know he's been in a fight. More if my buddy and I can pull it off. If we lose, well, we would have lost anyway. I will be damned if I'll let some arrogant asshole(s) control the timing and tempo of events. Nope, not on my watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:50 AM

The trouble with most of the responses advocating this is that they come from the perspective of someone who is an adult, and with time to formulate in their mind what they would do. Same doesn't hold true in the moment. Especially with kids and young adults who are likely to be terrified and not thinking clearly. It takes intensive and repetitive training to know how to act under pressure.

Same for those that claim deterrence. The presupposes that the nut is actually going to think through the act in a logical and sane way. People that believe this are the same people that think that showing a gun will deter a criminal. It is a fallacy. If you are going to pull a gun for deterence, then you should be prepared, and intend, to use that gun. Waving it around will likely get it taken from you and used on you.

Teach your children to run away. The moment they sense danger, they should run, en mass, for the nearest exit. A nut is going to do what they are going to do. Rather than teach your children to take them on, improve security at the school, improve training for the teachers, stop bullying, perhaps a program of arming certain employees ala the Sky Cops (but only with intensive training).

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:07 PM

I've told my kids to defend each other - I think this kind of training may be not only good, but necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: kendall
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM

Do not stand still!

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:22 PM

"Teach your children to run away." This advice brought to you by the Mudcat's biggest proponent of the individual's right to bear arms.

I'm surprised he didn't say "arm your teachers." That would be more in keeping with his personal philosophy on gun control. What a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:29 PM

A child was assaulted in this library by an 18 yr old who had a knife. The child screamed, fought free, and ran yelling "Mom! He's got a knife!" The 18 yr old is now serving five years hard time and will have 10 years probation when he does get out.

The police said the child did EVERYTHING right.

GUEST of 06:22, you're looking for a fight and acting like an ass. I'd engage you in intellectual argument but I don't fight with an someone who's unarmed.

For the record (and I've said it before): I have a "carry concealed" permit and if I felt the need to do so I would.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:31 PM

Go on back out in the swamp, HG. You are the only joke around here. Scares the hell out of me that you are a mental health professional. Instead of sharing your dislike of me (do you counsel your patients to do this?) why don't you offer up some of your sterling observations on the appropriate solution? Offer up some of what you think of the idea of kids, under stress, with no training, taking on a lunatic bent on killing. I am breathless with anticipation.

At least I didn't drop my handle and hide in the bushes. I am right here for comment.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 07:40 PM

I agree with Big Mick's first posting. Kids are no defence against some demented idiot with an AK47 etc. No, I do not think they should sit and wait for it to come to them, I think they should do all they can to get away, NOT confront. And, Mick is doubly right about improving security, etc. Take action to improve such things BEFORE training the kids to take over what adults should be protecting them from. No wonder my daughter doesn't want her son to go to public schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

How old are these kids meant to be? how old is the assailant? how tough? etc etc

And there are no doubt a million other variables that make committing to any predetermined response a naive unhelpful approach. Every situation is different and must be treated accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 06:27 PM

The kids can run away or attack, but they should DO something. One gunman is one person, and even if they had a fully automatic weapon (e.g., a Tommy gun, an AK that COULD fire full auto, etc.) the bullets only go one place at a time. Then the gun is empty and (hopefully) adults can do what it necessary

Subject: RE: BS: Students told to fight back
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:23 PM

"And there are no doubt a million other variables that make committing to any predetermined response a naive unhelpful approach. Every situation is different and must be treated accordingly."

Right - but the trouble is that every school is obligated to have "a plan" - no matter how useless or counter-productive; so when the excitement is over and the blame is being apportioned, the school authorities will be able to say, "It's not our fault - we had a plan!"

Incidentally, I'm a teacher too, and be-damned if I'd follow the mandatory sit-and-wait plan with some loonie shooting up the place. By the way, in response to some comments, there are many kids who are much cooler-headed in a pinch than a lot of adults ...