BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!

Subject: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,lightnix
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:53 AM

This week, Thursday 2nd November 2006 will see the third and final reading of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill in the House of Lords. This bill has been dubbed the "Abolition of Parliament Bill" and the "Totalitarianism Bill", among other things, and, if passed, will grant any minister the ability to amend, replace, or repeal existing legislation, WITHOUT Parliament being able to examine or debate their reasons, thus removing away the ability of Parliament to meaningfully represent the citizens of this country.

On Friday 27th October, House of Lords attempted to make the Bill safer, but lost by just 13 votes. There is now just one last chance to protect democracy in the UK and you can all help by writing to a Lord. Here's what to do...

1. Go to http://www.writetothem.com/lords

2. Click "Random Lord" near the bottom of the page.

3. If you get a Labour peer, then click the back button and press "Random Lord" again. No point writing to Government peers on this one. Labour, Liberal Democrat, Crossbench, Bishops etc. are all fine.

4. Write a letter making the following points in your own words:

* The Third Reading (that's the last one in the House of Lords) of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill is this coming Thursday, 2nd November.

* Explain to the Lord how important Parliament is to hold the Government's power in balance, and how you would not like to see this Bill passed in a form which would weaken Parliament.

* In the first clause of the Bill, there is a section which says that the purpose of the Bill is to "reduce burdens". Unfortunately, all it says that the *Minister* must consider whether the change in law he wants to make reduces burdens. This is better than the original Bill at the start of the year, but it is still not good enough.

* Say that you would like the phrase "he considers" to be removed from the Bill, so that any law changed under it must be considered burden reducing by any reasonable person. Rather than by a possibly unreasonable Minister.

(you can skip the last two points if it seems too complicated to explain; the next one is the key one)

* Ask the Lord to attend Parliament on Thursday, and vote for any opposition amendments which remove the phrase "he considers", or otherwise make the Bill safer.

* Ask your Lord to vote *against* passing the Third Reading of the Bill if the phrase "he considers" is not removed.

* Thank them!

5. Send the letter. You're done.

Most letters will be sent to the House of Lords fax machine (they haven't got around to e-mail yet) so please don't be tempted to send the message to multiple peers - it may be seen as spamming.

For further background on this, see...

http://www.saveparliament.org.uk/index.php

...and...

http://bill111.wordpress.com/2006/10/27/house-of-lords-report-stage-debate/

The actual section of the Act which contains the "he considers" section can be found at...

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldbills/161/06161.1-7.html#jNC19

If you love the democracy in which you live, please spend a few short minutes trying to protect it. By this Friday it could be a thing of the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 09:56 AM

Indeed you are right Lightnix, and how ironic that we should be appealing to conservatives to save our democracry (if we ever had one).

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:07 AM

Sounds as though you have Bushitis over there, too! This is a cause of great dismay.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:10 AM

Thank you, Richard. You don't have to write to a Tory peer, though - a Crossbench, Lib-Dem or Bishop will do.

And if democracy is under threat in the UK (which I believe it is) how much of the responsibility for that should be shouldered by the people of the UK? IMO it is our apathy as much as anything else which has led to this state of affairs and only we can do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:18 AM

I have faxed Lord Redesdale (Lib Dem, and a thorn in the Government's side on the Licensing Bill) as follows.

Feel free to do likewise and to use bits of my letter if you wish.


"Dear Lord Redesdale,

Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill
Vote (Lords) Thurs 2nd Nov.

You may remember me from the Licensing Bill. This time I write to urge you to press at least for the radical reform but possibly the rejection of the above bill. For centuries Parliament has been the supreme legislative body in the UK, but this bill would if passed without amendment enable ministers (and we have for decades seen how the ministerial point of view may sometimes be inappropriately partisan or worse) without Parliamentary discussion to amend or repeal legislation. The Bill at present requires the minister to consider whether his proposals will "reduce burdens". That is an insufficient safeguard. You will recollect the irrational certifications by government ministers that the Licensing Bill did not affect human rights and was compatible with EU law.

An obvious example might be a Conservative minister certifying that the removal of the Human Rights Act would "remove burdens". No doubt, from his perspective, such a removal would be convenient.

But there lies the rub. The temptation provided by the Bill in its present form is too much. At the very least the courts should be entitled and enabled to review whether a ministerial measure under the Bill (if enacted) was genuinely only deregulatory. That, however, runs the risk of encroaching on the enrolled bill rule, and in my view the better approach would be for the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill not to pass. It should then go to the Law Reform Commission who might succeed in preparing something that did not show such a likelihood of being used as a party political tool.



Yours sincerely,


Richard McD. Bridge"

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:01 PM

BTW, guest, I am one of the hasslers - I was very involved n the battle against the Licensing Bill, and I spent years trying to get legislation to create a "copyright" for the formats of TV programmes, but goverments now lie so much that I was very disillusioned by the experiences

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

In british law, the "Will of Parliament" is the cornerstone of the british legal system and constitution.

No parliament may bind another ie, no parliament may legislate to undermine it's own absolute supremacy constitutinally nor that of any future, as yet unelected parliament.

The executive already has the privilege of taking us to war, keeping secrets and intervening in specific cases where it deems itself justified to do so.

The courts decide on the legality of decisions made by the executive. If a decision is contrary to the will of parliament then they will view it as illegal.

Likewise they will not ratiify any decision that they view as undermining the supremacy of parliament, as it would be a constitutional fallacy to argue that parliament would try to undermine itself.

That is the bedrock of democracy in the UK. The courts will always be loyal to the will of parliament and will not waste time fannying around with paradox's regarding parliaments that undermine themselves.

Therefore, if the executive acts in a way that undermines the will of parliament, whether they have persuaded Parliament to give them that power or not, the courts will ultimately view their action as illegal and they may be held accountable, as no parliament has the power to give the executive that right.

What aspect of this bill changes that reality?

I think this is the great strength of the British constitution, is that can survive pruning and savaging without suffering extensive damage. It absorbs change and evolves. It is inexhaustively deep and tony blair is but a pebble sinking through the darkness.

(PS, this is not my point of view, it is the reality of British law. To understand it, you need to learn the subject and see how it has worked in the past.

It's not so much an explanation of a philosophical idea as a description of a mechanism - like how a car works.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:12 PM

What would make a difference in our times would be if

1. there were a few more gutsy judges around, prepared to scrutinize the actions of the executive a bit more aggressively, and

2. if people learned to understand their laws a bit better and took the government on themselves in the courts.

Inspiration should be gleaned from cases such as the mclibel trial

(to learn more click here )

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:00 PM

Hi Lox, I lecture law at two universities, and at one of them sometimes constitutional law.

Here's a link to the text of the bill as last amended in the Lords at the Report stage http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldbills/161/2006161.pdf

Believe me it says just what the OP says it says.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,lightnix
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:40 PM

No disrespect Lox, but that sounds like a very complacent point of view.

If this Bill goes through, then from Friday any Minister will be able to rewrite any law they choose, at will, with the excuse that they consider that law to be a "burden"; there will be no debate, no discussion and no vote If anybody has a problem with that, then they will have to fight it out in court and tell me: who has the money to do that? Even if they won, it would be a hollow victory, for it would not repeal this vile Act, or prevent a Minister from doing it again with a different law, or with the same law, but in a subtly different way.

Prevention is better than cure and what we have here is one last chance to prevent our country from taking a BIG step towards being ruled by a dictatorship.

In the end, we get the society we want and if the People of Britain can't be bothered to get off their fat, apathetic arses this time, just for 10 minutes, then they deserve the fate that awaits them.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:47 PM

One question.   If the Labour and Lib Dem Lords don't need to be written to 'cos their on board, and I'd have thought most Conservative Lords might vote agin the govt. anyway,who the hell is in favour of the bill in the Lords?

I began the process of writing to a Lord when the above problem occurred to me.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:53 PM

Ivor, the reason it's not worth writing to labour peers is most of them are so cowed their going to vote for it, and we can't alter that, not they're voting against it already. There are some notable exceptions, but too few.


Any others, including the Lib dems are fair game though.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 03:28 PM

It is hard to have a discussion with you on this subject without you directing me to the specific areas that concern you.

I don't not see that the power of the court to interpret when and where this act may be applied legally has been undermined.

It is after all not the job of parliament to scrutinize and regulate the executive, but that of the courts.

Can you be specific about what parts of the draft worry you the most.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 03:33 PM

To clarify my last post, simply presenting me with the entire document and saying "there I told you so" (not a quote, an interpretation) does not constitute a considered response.

I'm wondering whether you expected me to be intimidated by it. As it stands, my mind is wide open to exploring this issue in a bit more depth.

I await a response eagerly.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 04:00 PM

Lox, I think you and Richard are looking at two different stages: Specifically, you are looking at how a law can be applied or interpreted and what safeguards there may be there; while Richard and GUEST lightnix are focusing on the process by which the bill can be passed or a law amended in the first place, i.e. before it reaches interpretation.

Now, while the title of the thread is general and covers the area of your concern (i.e. the former), I think the lightnix with his opening post meant it to focus on the latter, which is indeed a major constitutional issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 04:19 PM

Sounds like a load of bollocks to me. The conduct of the government during the miners strike should have proved to most people that English law means pretty much what the government of the day says it means.

Ask all those innocent Irish people locked up in the 1970's how much protection for the individual there is in English law.

Your best hope of good behaviour from the government is in taking an interest in the innate decency individuals you vote for.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 05:48 PM

Lox, the process of challenging delegated legislation depends (mostly)on interpretation of the enabling legislation. This bill confers on the minister the power to repeal primary legislation. Gettit?

Have you considered the enrolled bill rule?

You want to rely on the vague possibility that a court may say that a minister did not have power to repeal (whatever)?

Do not hand your enemy a stick and then hope that he will not use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,lightnix
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 05:50 PM

@autolycus: There are Crossbench peers and bishops, who are not bound by party loyalties. Try them.

@Lox: You obviously haven't read / understood the OP properly (or any of the links - sorry I don't know how to make them clickable). You haven't been presented with the whole document, in the hope that you'll suss it for yourself; other links have been posted which contain background reading. Sorry if you can't get it together to copy / paste them into your browser's search tab, but that's OK - let me try to explain it again *sigh*...

Under the Bill's current form, all a Minster will need to do is "consider that" a law is "burdensome", by themselves, with no parliamentary debate. They will effectively be able to change any law they don't like, at will, without any recourse to the democratic process. The least we can hope for, at this late stage, is for a Minister to be required to PROVE that any changes they wish to make to a law actually WILL reduce the "burden" imposed by it, thus requiring their otherwise autocratic decision to be verified by Parliament.

Got that?

As for more time to "explore" the matter... Sorry, but you've got until the close of play on Wednesday.

@George Papavgeris: I'm no constitutional expert, but Yes: that's about the size of it.

@weelittledrummer: No disrespect, but the best way to ensure (not merely expect) good behaviour from government is to get involved in the political process.

If this Bill goes through on Thursday, then on Friday we will effectively be living under a dictatorship; a real one - not just one imagined by some wild-eyed bunch of conspiraloons.

Think about it, just for a minute: people have sacrificed their lives for the level democracy we enjoy in this country and there are other countries where people would disappear and have their lives summarily ended, for even daring to write a letter of protest to an MP and if you can't be bothered to get off your fat, lazy, apathetic, complacent backsides for ten poxy minutes, to make the most minimal of efforts to stop that from happening here, then you deserve everything that happens to you.

Call it "bollocks" if you want, just remember: you were warned.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Cobble
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 05:54 PM

Cromwell is'nt dead and this non labour government should remember that, we are sick of there lies and phoney working class talk. And the sooner the thick ohs that vote for them realise what they are getting into the sooner normallity will return.

                Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:02 PM

i think that in his distinctive poetic style, weelittledrummer has hit the nail on the head.

The system is as prone to abuse by the executive as it ever was, as they are as accountable to the courts as they ever were.

_________

George, my point is, that if this bill does, as people are suggesting, strip supremacy from parliament and give it to the executive, the courts will not accept it as lawful.

The only justification the executive will have for applying it would be that it was the will of parliament, and that suggestion would be laughed out of court as it would be blatantly suggesting that parliament was deliberately undermining it's own supremacy.

No parliament may bind itself or any future parliament and no court will uphold any attempt to undermine that principle.

The battle ground therefore, if what has been claimed above is true, is in the courts. The legality should be publicly questioned.

I haven't read the whole text, but it loks to me like an attempt to deal with red tape where it clogs up the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,lightnix
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:49 PM

@Lox

Accountable to the courts? For how long? Until (under the new Bill) some Minister "considers" that such a process is "a burden" and removes it. That's how long. Oops.

Even if that doesn't happen immediately, you'll only be able to challenge any changes to the law on an individual case basis, assuming you have the time (i.e. years), money (i.e. at least tens of thousands) and willpower (i.e. practically unlimited) to mount a case against the Government. Even if you win your one tiny little case, it won't stop other Ministers from changing other laws at will and all the Government will need to do to get around your victory is to play around with semantics and get what they want by another means.

No parliament may bind itself or any future parliament and no court will uphold any attempt to undermine that principle.

You reckon? And who appoints the judges which sit over those courts? Oops.

I'm worried now. I picked this info up on a pro-cannabis forum and have posted it in forums for folkies, sports car owners, theatre workers and street skaters. I would have thought / hoped that such people would be among the more freedom-minded, independent types; but no. Even where people have bothered to reply, it's mostly been "Ho-hum... Yeh... Whatever... Bollocks... It ain't gonna happen".

The words "lambs" and "slaughter" somehow spring to mind.

Maybe when they start banning folk clubs and festivals as being racist / sexist / sources of dissent or whatever, THEN you'll finally wake up and smell the coffee; but by then it will be too late.

Prevention is better than cure and what we have here is one last chance to prevent what is about to happen. Ignore it at your peril.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 07:10 PM

"I picked this info up on a pro-cannabis forum"

A well known source of legal knowledge and debate.

I read the relevant part of the bill first, then I read your links.

I've gone through the bill several times and don't see where it says that a minister may for whatever reason enact or repeal any law he wants arbitrarily.

I think that to convince your audience you should educate them in exactly where in the bill your concerns lie and what they are rather than relying on your talent for rhetoric and prose.

You need to refer us to the paragraphs or lines you most have a problem with and clearly explain why they are a problem.

I'm sorry to inform you that your last post exhibits little more than a lack of knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 07:47 PM

"I picked this info up on a pro-cannabis forum"

A well known source of legal knowledge and debate.

No more or less than a folkies' forum, or any other forum for that matter. Given that cannabis users operate outside the law, many of them, as campaigners and medi-users are very politically and legally aware.

I'll admit that my knowledge of these things is not complete, but I don't see why that should be a reason to dismiss my posts out of hand, as you seem to be doing.

I've stated as clearly as I can, where my concerns lie and if (having read all the links I posted) you still can't / won't see that, then maybe you're not as intelligent as you like to think you are.

Maybe, given your apparently "superior" level of knowledge, you'd care to explain why there should be no cause for alarm.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 08:16 PM

You are raising the alarm, so it is up to you to show me why I should be alarmed.

I've read the offending document and I haven't found any evidence to support your claim.

Where is that evidence to be found?

I don't see myself as superior.

I know that lots of people use cannabis who are very legally aware including judges and lawyers.

They don't debate legal issues on cannabis forums though, nor on folkie forums. They debate them with other lawyers and judges and if they are serious enough they get themselves on the news.

Can you direct me to a forum where judges and lawyers are debating this issue?

The only reason we're discussing this subject on this folkie forum is because you've brought it to us after reading it on a cannabis forum.

If you want me to feel your sense of urgency you need to explain to me exactly why I should be scared.

Test yourself. Don't send me to a website where I will be deluged with more rhetoric, explain to us yourself HOW (with references) the document makes it possible for the executive to take on the power of a totalitarian regime.
____________________

It is not up to me to prove that there is no reason to be afraid, any more than there is any reason for me to explain why I'm not afraid of my computer exploding in the next 5 minutes.

And now that I've had that idea, I'm not going to suddenly panic and get to the nearest computer shop. The best thing I can do is ask myself why I have that fear and examine the situation calmly and critically . If after honest, careful and rigorous inspection I find that my fears are unfounded then I may find that the only thing I have left to question is my cause for alarm.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Lox
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 08:56 PM

If as you suggest, this document takes power away from parliament and gives it to ministers, then it is itself illegal and will be repealed with little difficulty, as it is constitutionally insupportable. No need to attack future decisions, just get to the point and pull the rug.

Consider the logic - if parliament passes a bill undermining it's own authority, then it simultaneously undermines the authority of the bill it has passed, rendering it meaningless. That is the constitutional fallacy that the courts will not uphold.

The court does not recognize any higher authority than parliament unless parliament demands it. In this case, parliament does not. The exec can make as much noise as it likes but it will be wasting it's time.

Are you sure you're appealing to the right house of lords?

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 09:10 PM

England has a democracy? You're a monarchy. Your queen only allows you the delusion of self-rule. What you REALLY need to do is storm Buckingham Palace and put that bitch's head on a spike. Or so it seems to an outsider.

What I'm curious about is in the opening of this article:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/internet_blogs_europe_targets_blogs.htm

Does this guy really have a chance to replace Blair? If so, sounds like he'll have a fine old time with the abolition of civil liberties.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 09:58 PM

For heaven's sake Lox, try to get a grip of the enrolled bill rule. Have a look at Pickin -v- British Railways board.

And read S. 1 of the bill. In summary a minister may by order make any order to repeal any legislation if he "considers" (which is a test only of his subjective intent) would remove any burden.

Judicial review will not in general lie of a wholly subjective power.

And again in general JR will not lie of policy matters, see the GCHQ case.

You expound a constitutional theory that the UK courts will examine the constitutionality of primary legislation. Quite simply, they do not and will not. They have no power to do so. They may examine the lawfulness of secondary legislation and in some cases the "Wednesbury reasonableness" of the exercise of powers, but an exercise of a power will not be held "Wednesbury unreasonable" unless NO reasonable body could hav reached that decision.

The courts, even the "New Labour" "Supreme Court" do not have the powers of the US Supreme Court, nd the UK does not ahve an entrenched constitution against which to examine the constitutionality of primary legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:00 PM

One place the bill is being discussed.

http://www.saveparliament.org.uk/index.php

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:03 PM

Times article

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:06 PM

http://www.spy.org.uk/spyblog/2006/02/legislative_and_regulatory_ref.html


I should accept that some of these links refer to a previous text of the bill. The bill has been amended but the central vice remains.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:08 PM

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/constitution/story

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:23 PM

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/pdfs/policy06/legis-and-reg-reform-bill-2nd-reading-lords.pdf

Yeah, Lox, like no-one is worried really

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:38 PM

Oh, before anyone tells me that the minister may not make an order unless he is satisfied that it is not of constitutional significance, let them read the Constitution of Canada cases. In outline, although the law gave effect while Canada was technically ruled from Westminster, to a Canadian constitutional change and the UK government was supposed (by convention) to have had regard to the views of all of the Canadian provinces before passing such a bill.   It hadn't. Tbe bill said it had. The application of the enrolled bill rule meant that the courts could not challenge that untruth. The case also establishes that the courts will not enforce a mere convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:27 AM

Richard - I think the Guardian address is incorrect - I can't get it.


I'm emailing BBC's Today programme.

The quote from Madison in the Times of London article is good.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:38 AM

Guardian Story

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 03:40 AM

The Government will say it ahs made substantial concessions since February. True, it has, but the central vice remains. What repeals the minister considers will deregulate he may pass without Parliamentary scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:01 AM

I'm afraid, as usual in my case, the thought wasn't original. I was paraphrasing something said much more cleverly by Charles Dickens many years ago.

Occasionally - you see something awe inspiring from America - like Watergate, where a President was called to account. And that is a direct result of them crossing the t's and dotting the i's correctly in their constitution. You know that would never happen in England - the Spycatcher revelations were much more damning of the power group behind Thatcher than anything those Washington Post guys had on Tricky Dicky.

And yet when Labour came to power, were the Augean stables cleaned of the Mi5/Mi6 boys who obviously must pull the strings, behind the scenes and decide little details like this latest ballsup in Iraq. Were they fuck!

No the democracy we enjoy, at one level is obviously window dressing. Theres no way a guy of Blair's intelligence and general sympathies made that decision about Iraq. Similarly Wilson couldn't dissociate himself from Vietnam - even when his Home Secretary was disobeying him and going into conflabs with the Viet Cong. Look how the will of the people has been frustrated continually over Northern Ireland.

There is little to hope for in reforming a democratic system, which the exective of this country (whoever they are!) has never taken seriously.

Like I say (and Charles Dickens said) just try to make sure the people you vote for, are decent chaps - that's all you can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,lightnix
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

Thanks again Richard, at least I got through to somebody here.

Lox, there's nothing else I can say. I've already explained I'm not a constitutional expert, all I am is somebody trying to pass on something that concerned me. I can see the danger in the material I posted, I'm sorry you can't.

I've said all I can on this one, really.

Good luck, everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 04:12 AM

we've yhave never had any real democracy here in the UK.

Because you vote them in and then they do whatever they want

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 05:19 AM

If you join, lightnix, and search for my posts, you'll find I ran a similar thread back in February

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 09:24 AM

Thank you richard for your considered and intelligent answers to my questions.

You have made the issue clear and explained it so it can be understood.

Lightnix.

Do you really believe you got through to richard? this thread has really been about him educating all of us while your ego does a little dance and tries to take the credit.

Well done for getting it on screen, but please, if you want to win people's hearts and minds, try to answer their questions with information and not by avoiding them and trying to imbue, through the use of shallow rhetoric, a sense of uninformed panic.

I am not a cow and I have no intention of stampedeing.

Richard,

My remaining question is: what about the definitions of what constitues a burden. Are they not clearly enough spelled out by the document?

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 10:44 AM

Lightnix really did alert me to the fact that the third HoL reading was this Thurs - and I have emailed a pile of lawyers at least some of whom have gone off deep 6 at a suitable peer.

The problem IMHO is not that a burden is defined (or otherwise) it is that the minister may do what he considers fit to remove what he considers a burden, unless he considers it is a constitutional matter - all matters of the minister's unfettered discretion!

In any event "burden" is so widely defined that the minister might at one stroke remove all workers' rights and still fall within the definition of "burden" if anyone was empowered to adjudicate whether it did.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 06:39 PM

Well run a scenario past us as to what your fears are about what's going to be worse.

Like I say, as far as i can see, the executive of this country seem to have the right to throw the rule book away any time they want to, as it is. Its not something they do as a routine exercise - but its not something they shy away from.

How exactly can things be significantly worse. More to the point, why do you believe they will be?

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:24 PM

Note, all you doubters - lack of democracy is already happening!

Late last week ITV News announced that because the Government did not like an exposee of the medical treatment of some of the servicemen injured in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence would no longer recognise and assist ITV reporters in those war areas. Accreditation of ITV was withdrawn.

This leaves the government-controlled BBC as the only TV channel now able to issue the Government's much-edited version of news in those areas.

No doubt other stories unpalatable to the Government will also be severely edited, as have been public details of the current Bill under debate.

Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:33 PM

"Given the rapidly multiplying constellation of crises and criticisms hitting his presidency in its metaphorical face, President Bush has taken the extraordinary step of investing in a tract of private real estate. For the past week, the international press has been spellbound by reports that Jenna Bush, the president's daughter, has negotiated a real estate transaction in upper Paraguay for a huge ranch even by Texas standards. Now international speculation presumes that the Bushes have taken the advice of their family's consigliores to maintain a bolt-hole hideaway just in case of the eruption of problematic or discomforting political developments in their homeland.

From my undergraduate history of the Cold War, I seem to recall that after the Allied victory in World War Two, the northern reaches of Paraguay provided a refuge for Nazi war criminals – including Dr. Josef Mengele. A rogue Nazi, a rogue president – a refuge for rogues in the mists of Paraguay - is that a coincidence – or not?"

Perhaps there will be a small cabin there for Tony, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:38 AM

There are always bloody good reasons for not fighting wars. When you are engaged in fighting one, its not a brilliant idea to publicise those reasons. Some of that is to do with the morale of the of the people out there risking their lives, increasing the worry that their families are already subjected to, giving extra fire power to those who are morally opposed to the war and are undermining your efforts anyway.

One is reminded of the idiot who nearly revealed the position of the British fleet approaching the Falkland when it was sheltering in cloud cover. Of course there is censorship in wartime.

I imagine the newhound in question could have found any number of such 'scoops' if he'd been there on D Day. Just thank your lucky stars he wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 08:24 PM

I'm curious, as an American -- is the House of Lords still hereditary? Or is there an electoral process involved? If not, why do you think you're a democracy? And why would you panic at the manifestation of raw power? I mean, if these folks are your "Lords," then don't you live because they suffer you to live? And why would they be answerable to you in any way, if you acknowledge them as your "Lords." Always seemed strange to me. Enlightenment would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 09:36 PM

Weelittledrummer
I think you have missed the point here. You possibly did not see the programme on ITV last Monday, or the previous one last week, by Sir Trevor MacDonald. You will no doubt recall that he was given his Knighthood for his uncompromising reporting and his veracity.
In each of these programmes he was reporting on the poor way in which our servicemen, wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan, have been treated by the MOD. Some of them are even having to pay for private treatment.
After each of these programmes it was stated that the Government had withdrawn accreditation of ITN journalists in both the above conflicts on the strength of the government's objection to the programme. No spokesman from the Government was "available for comment".
It is obvious that the Government has effectively stated "If you do not report what we want, in the way that we want it, then you will have no further information from us".
This is censorship!

Knowledge of history will show that this same arbritary attitude to the democracy of Parliament caused the English Civil War in the mid-1600's.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 11:51 PM

GUEST, there are very few hereditary Lords left, with many of the positions being appointed as "life Peers" - many of them through a system of proposal by the parties and acceptance by the monarch; not election as such, and open to misuse, some of which is being investigated right now. So, no quite elected, but neither hereditary. So the rest of your statement is void. Think of them as the Senate in the role they play in the creation of laws. There are lots of procedural differences with the US, but that's more or less the long and short of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:25 AM

Right. I researched after instead of before speaking. Interesting history there. The Act that changed the system in 1999 must've caused quite a stir at the time. But you're still left with a monarchy, which kind of dulls the point of the whole "democracy" thing, doesn't it? If you're a democracy, get rid of the monarchy, the way you did the hereditary Lords. Without the queen's skirt to hide behind, the House of Lords would then be more responsive to the people, wouldn't it? And you really should do something about that title stuff...'Lord.' Why not just call them 'massuhs?' Treat it like what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 03:42 AM

The monarchy is a red herring in this case, I think. You seem to assume that in the UK the monarch has more power than in reality. In truth, she has a lot less power than the US President. In the country's history people (and Kings) lost their heads to limit that power. No danger to democracy there - whereas in the US... but that is discussed in other threads already.

As for the business with the Lords, well it is changing. What happened in 1999 is step 1 of several, I think. But again the problem is not there, in this case, it is in allowing a Minister (a Department Secretary in the US) to amend or repeal an existing law without being checked by the House of Parliament/Representatives or House of Lords/Senate.

A working Democracy of whatever shape has to have checks and balances. It's when these checks go that danger exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 03:57 AM

All these gulf war adventures have been (shall we say) hostages to fortune. They have surprised evrybody. Particularly the
government(s) - both Tony and Maggie's. Though nobody is saying it - the situation is, and has been out of control from day one of these adventures.

The military have been improvising how to run a war they never expected they would have to fight. And frankly the lickspittle traditions of the British army won't really produce people of imagination - who could work out how a war like this will develop.

My wife was in Harlow Wood Hospital near Mansfield having a bilateral knee joint replacement when the the first war kicked off. Harlow Wood was at that time a beautiful hospital - a specialist one, set in woodland, staffed by porters (most of then paid sod all) who knew how to lift arthritis sufferers without hurting them.

When the war started two wards were cleared immediately - because they were expecting massive incoming casualties and the hospital was commandeered.   Thatcher (spotting how a couple of quid could find their way into her back pocket) continued closing the wards when the casualties never manifested themselves, and now Harlow Wood is small but select estate of of executive homes. The specialist staff are doing other things unconnected with their expertise. harlow Wood was replaced with two general medical wards at the local big hospital, where the staff have no specialist knowledge.

I have a friend whose job is counselling the many tragically wounded soldiers from Gulf War One. the governments indifference to their plight is almost blanket like. Of course they don't give a shit about the wounded from this war - they didn't give a shit about the wounded from the last one.

The attitude is basically the same on described by Rudyard Kipling in his poem about 'the thin red line of heroes - we ain't no thin red heroes' - of course it is. The reason being that the smae shadowy figures are deciding foreign policy as a hundred years ago.

Worrying about what is written down in English law is not going to help anybody in this case. These people are unaccountable, beyond the reach of the legislative process.

Hands up, who wants a more open society and government?

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,interested
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:48 PM

Well, since a spammer brought this back up, how'd it turn out?

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:23 AM

Oh, it finished, mate. No such thing as deomcracy in the UK now. We've all been interned in camps run by eurocrats and staffed by asylum seekers and black people. It's illegal to speak English, all our bananas are forcibly straightened and we're being made to eat foreign food. It's terrible! There's only the Daily Mail and the Daily Express left as beacons of hope. We're awaiting a rescue mission led by Melanie Phillips and Richard Littlejohn...

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:23 AM

It passed, substantially as the gov't intended

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:46 AM

And 'Roots' is the new national anthem.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST,interested
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:27 PM

Yikes! Sorry to hear about the police state. Ain't life a kick in the head? The US isn't far behind you. The septic tank's about to collapse beneath all of us, and then we'll all be in-terred. Keep yer nanners up.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Peace
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 12:33 AM

Possibly the same thing has happened in Canada, but as a rule Canucks are too polite (I'm the exception) to ask anyone if it's true. We shall have to wait for a news leak sometime during the next few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

This was inevitable. I hope people are starting to realise the whole neo-con project of the so-called war on terror is a con to take us back to totalitarianism. Except they've been learning from their mistakes and it'll probably be worse this time. I am once again reminded of King Richard II (I think) who, after breaking all his promises to the peasants angrily shouted "Villeins ye are and Villeins ye shall remain!!" when they dares challenge him. The other day I read a report on a conference given by one of Dubya's henchmen (sorry, no link to hand) where he responded anrgily to journalists that they were 'un-American' if they dared question the wisdom of the Great Leader. I thought "My goodness! Where have we heard those words before? They must have a very low opinion of people's memories and intellects that they are using off-the-shelf McCarthyisms in such an open and flippant manner!!"

So lads, peasants ye are and peasants ye shall remain - free to lose a few pints of sweat in a disco, dose yourselves on drugs, TV commercials or own a gun, but don't dare rock the system.....

But there's still time. Are there any decent candidates up for election the next time in the USA? Neither democrats nor republicans are worth their weight in cow dung. Ye need a new party. (sorry for being so 'intrusive' into US domestic affairs, but the ripple spreads out all over the world).

Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:50 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Last chance to save UK democracy!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 08:24 PM

I'm curious, as an American -- is the House of Lords still hereditary? Or is there an electoral process involved? If not, why do you think you're a democracy? And why would you panic at the manifestation of raw power? I mean, if these folks are your "Lords," then don't you live because they suffer you to live? And why would they be answerable to you in any way, if you acknowledge them as your "Lords." Always seemed strange to me. Enlightenment would be appreciated."


Try Googling "Magna Charta", guest. That will tell you about the curbs placed on the powers of the lords. Then look up Oliver Cromwell to see the limits of royal powers.

Don T.