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BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Ron Davies Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:16 AM I'd still like to know why this movie is not a "minstrel show". I suppose you could make the "Stepinfechit argument" to support the movie. Kazahkstan would never get a lot of publicity unless it was party to self-ridicule--just as blacks could not get steady screen work in Hollywood in the 30's unless party to self-ridicule. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Ron Davies Date: 26 Nov 06 - 11:09 AM I'd still like to know why this movie is not a "minstrel show". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 26 Nov 06 - 12:28 AM Ha! Now, that is funny, McGrath. You don't scare me one bit, mg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:18 PM A leading Kazakh writer has nominated actor Sacha Baron Cohen for a national award for popularizing Kazakhstan I sense a cunning ploy here, worthy of teh man himself. Sacha Baron Cohen is flattered into turning up for the award ceremonmy. The doors close behind him. He suddenly feels very alone. "Hullo Mr Borat - we have been hoping you would pay us a visit"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: mg Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:07 PM Great idea Chongo Chimp. Maybe they can go to Kenya next and make fun of the villagers with AIDS and children eating out of garbage dumps...oops that is for real...but anyway it might bring them some tourism. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 25 Nov 06 - 07:50 PM Har! Har! Now they're gettin' smart. They should milk this thing for all they can, and they could make millions out of it with tourists and new business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: JohnInKansas Date: 25 Nov 06 - 05:01 PM [quote] 2A THE WICHITA EAGLE SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2006 Borat nominated A leading Kazakh writer has nominated actor Sacha Baron Cohen for a national award for popularizing Kazakhstan. Novelist Sapabek Asipuly called on the Kazakh Club of Art Patrons to give Cohen its annual award, according to a letter published by the Vremya newspaper Thursday. Cohen's fictional Kazakh character Borat "has managed to spark an immense interest of the whole world in Kazakhstan, something our authorities could not do during the years of independence," said Asipuly, who chairs the writers' guild "The Land and Destiny of Kazakhs." Authorities in the ex-Soviet republic have been enraged by Borat's unflattering portrayal of Kazakh life in the spoof documentary, "Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit of Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan." [end quote] Kazakhstan undoubtedly does have an "image problem," much like one of my many digital photos where the flash didn't go off. Blow it up and brighten it using all the best tools available, and all you get is blotches and blurs and funny colors. Nothing could benefit the country more than a "sensational" spotlight that their own ambassador can turn in their direction. Whether the ambassador's complaints were due to real indignation, or whether he's smart enough to see an op for needed/wanted publicity is immaterial to me. I don't see this movie greatly harming the national reputation, since the country has little reputation of any kind to begin with for most who may see the movie. (Or at least for any who would have seen it without the "controversy" generated by threads like this one all around the world.) For all I know, the publicists for the movie may have made a substantial donation to the ambassador's favorite Kazakh charity in exchange for his "public complaint" since it certainly would be expected to generate - and has generated - publicity of mutual benefit to them both. I haven't seen the movie, and probably won't. IF I SHOULD HAPPEN to see it, perhaps then I'll be able to have an opinion on its artistic merits and cultural significance; but until then it's in my file with stories about hollywood marriages and divorces and drunken/drug-blotted arrests, rehabs, tossed computers, and "political opinions" from spoiled brats. But do carry on. I think I'll take a nap. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM Too bad Woody Allen is gettin' too old for that shtick, otherwise he could fit right in there. How about Adam Sandler? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Nov 06 - 03:11 PM He reminds me a lot of Groucho Marx Interesting. The Moustache for a start. And Groucho's ruthless way with his straight guys and straight girls (though of course they were actors). But the thing that made the Marx Bros films work were that they were an ensemble, and so far as I'm aware there is no trace of that with Cohen so far. Maybe that's the next stage. No one had had the nerve to remake the Marx Bros films so far, but... With Cohen as Groucho, any nominations for Chico and Harpo? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Nov 06 - 01:02 PM He obviously has a strong need to be the centre of attention, doesn't he? He reminds me a lot of Groucho Marx, who was reportedly an asshole both onscreen and off...but a lot of people found him very funny. I could take him or leave him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Ron Davies Date: 25 Nov 06 - 11:35 AM No sympathy for the college kids whatsoever. With the Kazakhs it's a different story. It seems he ridiculed them, paid them poorly and may have misled them. Why is this not so? His real target may have been US prejudice--but it comes out like a minstrel show--complete with blackface--or, if done by blacks, with whiteface. What's the view of those who think "Borat''s behavior was fine regarding minstrel shows? And as far as the pay--they may have thought it was easy money--and they took it--but it seems to be sharp practice on "Borat's" part--he paid as little as possible. And that sure won't help a real problem--anti-Semitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland Date: 25 Nov 06 - 09:23 AM Mr Cohen was at a jewish party for the old jews, and he stood up and sang anti jewish songs. the guy is arsehole racist, facist. I wouldn't be suprised if he joined the neo nazis as a joke. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Nov 06 - 08:56 PM Here's an interesting coment on all this "Top Kazakh Rabbi: In My Country There's No Problem" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 06 - 10:01 AM I'd love to see what the Kazakh comedians come up with in response... The difference is, they'd be exaggerating real aspects of our societies. And it wouldn't be too pretty. No doubt it'll turn up on YouTube, and we can see how our own sense of humour stands up in the face of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,jOhn Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:51 AM I;ve got it on DVD, its nice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Lox Date: 19 Nov 06 - 04:55 PM Relaxed or diplomatic? He is after all press officer for the Khazak diplomatic service. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Nov 06 - 04:08 PM In this clip the press attache to the Kazakhstan embassy (probably the one in London) suggests "Boratistan" might have been a better name to use for the imaginary country Borat uses to tease the Americans with. Asked hiow Kazakhs feel about this he says "mixed feelings" about it all - but he is pretty relaxed about the whole thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,lox Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:52 PM Nickhere, Thanks for your post. I think it offers the first deeply thought out argument in support of the use of the Khazak mask. Only he is obviously a good enough actor not to need such an obscure idiom. Ali G and he Austrian fashionista both operate on home turf. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM Here's a page with the various anthems they've had over the years. They've a new one that came in this year, which is pretty good. Nice words too, though the chorus words in English are a bit strange at one point: Golden sun in heaven, Golden corn in steppe, Legend of courage - It is my land. In hoary antiquity Our glory was born, Proud and strong Is my Kazakh people CHORUS My country, my country, As your flower I'll grow, As your song I'll stream, country! My native land - Kazakhstan! I've a boundless expanse And a way, opened in future. I have an independent, United people. Like an ancient friend Our happy land, Our happy people Is welcoming new time. But the one they had before sounds better to me. (They both knock God Save The Queen into a cocked hat, but then so would Yellow Submarine, which I have long thought should be adopted in its place.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Nickhere Date: 19 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM I saw the Borat movie, and I have to say I laughed a lot out loud, as did most of the cinema. I know some of the jokes are rather scurrilous, but I think there is something within human nature that enjoys someone who flouts 'the rules' - the reason why we also like some eccentrics. Analysing humour too much simply kills it (note the American 'joke coach' with his whiteboard and 'NOT' jokes - the very antithesis of humour) but I guess one reason it's so funny is precisely because it's so outrageous. You wonder 'did he actually say / do that?' I suspect some of the scenes are set up, but others are clearly not, the reactions are way too real. The college guys suing because they were 'plied with drink' beforehand (that must have been a real struggle!). My guess is that they are simply embarrased about how badly they showed themselves up, and rather than learn a lesson from it, they think 'someone must pay' - classic case of denial. They could see cameras were rolling. Romanians suing Borat? They agreed the wages they got beforehand, and evidently at the time thought it was a good deal. Maybe when they realised how much the movie was making they decided to go for a bigger cut of the pie. As for not realising it was a satire, surely the couldn't fail to notice the horse pulling the car etc., I don't buy their story about being conned. The Kazahkis - well, now we reach a real problem. Maybe it wsn't very nice for Borat to poke fun at a nation and it's people, and I'm not surprised they don't like it. I probably wouldn't like my country being portrayed this way (which it has often in the past). But I think Borat's (Cohen's) idea was to pick a suitably obscure country so people wouldn't be able to easily check up on his credentials, and his behaviour, being an unknown, could be believable. He could have picked an imgainary country but then anyone who decided to check him up would have rumbled him and the joke would be over. He could spend some money promoting Kazahkstan to make up for it. Jokes that don't offend anyone. Here's a good clean, PC joke: "A person, a person and a person walk into a bar...." BTW - I am betting that the 'Kazakhi National Anthem' will make it into the charts yet |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:53 AM
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: fumblefingers Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:23 AM Borat is hillarious. Humor, it is said, is a function of intelligence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:09 AM I disagree with Clinton most of the time on most issues, lox, but I just happen to agree with several things he said about this movie. As I have said before on this thread, the crucial thing about humour is that it should succeed AS humour...and I believe that Mr Cohen has, for the most part, succeeded in that respect in this case. Has he verged into bad taste at times? Yes. But he has also done some darned good social satire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:04 AM Yeah, you just like to pretend you're upset, dontcha, Clint, baby? It gets 'em goin', doesn't it? No one can affect you, probably not even your wife, right? You're impervious. You're either above it all or more likely below it all. I'm a lot like that too sometimes, and some people think I'm a jerk because of it, but I don't care. Still, I never met an ape with less natural grace than you. Maybe you are the missin' link, pal. If so, let's hope it stays missin' for a long time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 19 Nov 06 - 01:57 AM Sorry... but from what I've seen of him, I'll pass. He's too mean for me... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 Nov 06 - 11:01 PM You didn't piss me off in the least Lox... You don't have the ability to affect me in ANY way.... You're just a sad little git.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,lox Date: 18 Nov 06 - 10:02 PM Listen folks, Either you stick up for Clinton or you agree with him. You can't have it both ways. If he's right then anyones fair game. But if everyone's fair game then he's a hypocrite for getting all defensive when I made him look like a donkey. Maybe, just maybe, there is a line that can be crossed. I pissed Clinton off when I crossed his. ____________________________________________________ Come on folks, lets apply some observational skills. Who's gone all quiet - and who is usually impossible to shut up. I'm drunk - I've just got home from a bender - I'll add more when I'm sober |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST Date: 18 Nov 06 - 09:06 PM Harry Enfield's Stavros turnming the tables on every Saturday night drunk who slurred their kebab order - Borat is not new. The only people having the piss taken out of them are some Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Donuel Date: 18 Nov 06 - 07:53 PM Borat's song 'Throw the Jew down the well' was sung in a small country western bar with a small stage. What I found true to life was how certain people who initially reacted with distain or disgust slowly joined in with the crowd who sung the lyrics with glee. Human beings are funny animals. They think they have a mind of their own but fall in step with conformity easier than you might ever expect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Nov 06 - 05:04 PM I heard that he had created the character some time ago as a man from Khazakstan...but he didn't know at that time that he would eventually be doing it in a major movie release...thus attracting a lot of international attention. These things have a way of growing quietly, with unforseen consequences farther down the line. Look at it from the point of view of the Khazaks themselves. What would better serve them? To laugh at the ridiculous nature of this movie, shrug, and let it roll off them like water off a duck's back....or to get all bent out of shape about it and get furious and self-defensive and huffy and be in a lousy mood for ages and issue death threats and generally lose control of themselves? You can give your power away by getting upset or you can choose not to do that when something like this happens. I would have forgotten about this movie 5 minutes out of the theatre if not for this thread. ;-) I suggest that in a month from now it will not seem very important anymore and in a year it will be mostly forgotten by just about everybody. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film hits some wrong targets? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:55 PM Borat is showing how stupid it is to be a racist, a bigot, a jerk, etc...(whether or not you come from the USA or from Kazakhstan) I'm not disagreeing with that, or criticising that. But I don't think pulling Kazakhstan into it was either fair or necessary. I find myself agreeing with Kazakhs who have indicated that they think he did "cross the line". And Little Hawk's comment in response to my suggestion that Cohen might try taking the act on tour in Kazakhstan - "I doubt that he is that reckless..." indicates a recognition that this isn't just a matter of politicians making political points. (Actually I think it is quite likely that he will pay a visit to Kazakhstan before that long, though perhaps not "in character".) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:19 PM True, McGrath, true. It is the job of a professional comedian, however, to make fun of just about everybody, is it not? The viewer has to judge for themselves whether or not he has "crossed the line" that you refer to. It's a very subjective business. I recall when "All In The Family" was a hot show in the early 70's...and the most strident objections to it came from rightwingers who claimed that the show was engaging in racist humour and various other forms of humour that were offensive to minorities! Is that not the epitome of irony? ;-) (since the show was deliberately satirizing racism and bigotry in the person of Archie Bunker in order to show how stupid it is to be a racist and a bigot...) Similarly, Borat is showing how stupid it is to be a racist, a bigot, a jerk, etc...(whether or not you come from the USA or from Khazakstan) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:15 PM Why is it that so many of those who can't laugh at themseves, find it perfectly acceptable to laugh at others? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film hits some wrong targets? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Nov 06 - 04:03 PM There's a big difference between telling a bunch of people about all the stupid things you've done in your time, and the occasions you've made a complete prat of yourself - and sitting there listening to someone else doing that. There's a line between the kind of good-natured ribbing we all have to learn to accept, and bullying and cruelty. Quite where that line is drawn can vary - but you know when it's been crossed, whether thoughtlessly or intentionally. And it isn't just a question of whether the stories are actually funny or not. An anecdote about some personal humiliation which might actually be funny when told by the person to whom it happened could be like a blow to the face recounted by a third party. It's no different really when it come to jokes or "jokes" about disability or race or whatever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:36 PM It would help if someone corrected the title of this thread! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:31 PM The crucial thing with humour, and with judging the merits of humour, is its quality AS humour...what it reveals about the human situation...whether or not it has a point to make that is relevant in some way...whether or not it is funny, witty, effective in some way AS humour....whether or not it enlightens, makes aware, or stimulates laughter effectively... ...NOT who makes the joke and about whom. Therefore it is a complete red herring and a diversion driven by political correctness to complain about humour being made about any group of people by a person who is not a member of that group of people. There is no reason why a member of one group should be censured for making a joke about a member of another group...unless the joke itself deserves censure for some reason. It is not the source of the joke, but rather the joke itself that should be judged on its own merits. And therein lies the hypocrisy of a society that at present absolutely will not tolerate, for example, anyone but a Jew making jokes about Jews...or a black making jokes about blacks...or any similar situation to that. There is a lot of fear out there. Fear is not a good basis on which to establish a free society with people who are capable of thinking for themselves. Matter of fact, it establishes the opposite: conformity and predictable knee-jerk reactions as people judge the book by its cover, not its content. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM VERY, VERY FUNNY FILM
Knowing that Mr. Cohen is Jewish, and studied at Cambridge, and researched the Third Reich adds to the enjoyment.
It is amazing how he is able to get public personages to display their anti-semitism.
A short trailer of his material:
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Nov 06 - 01:56 PM Jokes vary. There are ethnic jokes that can reasonably be told by outsiders, but they aren't the only ones. And of course there are plenty of "jokes" which aren't jokes at all, just insults told as a way of bonding with other racists or whatever. And what I take Sacha Baron Cohen as having being doing was to play with that concept, as a way of exposing the racists and bigots for what they are. Fair enough, but Kazakhs didn't deserve to be insulted in the process. And before Clinton jumps in with his assumption that no one is ever going to see anyone from Kazakhstan, so they don't matter, one of my wife's language students last year was a girl from Kazakhstan living in my town. Our world today is both a lot bigger than it used to be, and a lot smaller. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Nov 06 - 01:06 PM if he had come from a fictional country, he probably wouldn't have fooled so many people into revealing their stupid ugly side. You really think people like that would actually know the difference between Kazakhstan and one of the fictional countries in this list? For example Krakozhia or Novistrana or Zekistan. Though of course many of those names were made up by people who might sue for breach of copyright. Using a real country removes that risk. You can't sue for breach of copyright just because you have been gratuitously insulted, and libel laws don't cover nations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Nov 06 - 11:19 AM "So you can only make fun of something if you are that thing??? What a stupid, blinkered approach to anything...." RIGHT fucking on!!!!!!!!! Again I agree with Clinton. It's a point I've been trying to make clear on this forum for years. I detest the kind of political correctness that has terrorized so many people into thinking that only blacks can be allowed to make jokes about blacks, only Jews can be permitted to make jokes about Jews...etc. (just name your favorite "victim" group and apply the principle with a broad brush) So I agree with Clinton again. Hmmm. Gotta check and see if hell is freezing over too... (grin) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,lox Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:44 AM But Mr Jamon, It's funny! oh - aren't you enjoying it? I'll back off then shall I? ok. your pal; Rosy Farts. (do you think bagels go as well with ham as they do with salmon) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:30 AM that's sasha Cohen. Dickhead and Arsehole of the first degree. tom |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:29 AM he's just an arsehole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 Nov 06 - 08:12 AM Grow the fuck up, Lox... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Bagpuss Date: 18 Nov 06 - 06:10 AM You also have to remember that when Baron Cohen first started performing the character (on the 11 oclock show - a terrible show on the whole, but it did spawn the careers of both baron cohen and ricky gervais) he had no idea that he would end up making a blockbuster film and that the Khazaks would ever hear of him. If he had changed the character to coming from a fictional place once he became big, the accusations would all have been of him selling out to political correctness. In addition, if he had Borat come from a fictional country, he probably wouldn't have fooled so many people into revealing their stupid ugly side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: dianavan Date: 18 Nov 06 - 02:52 AM Its a film! Its no worse than so-called, biblical movies that villify Jews or movies that depict trailer trash as ignorant. Its a form of entertainment. Its comedy that makes you think. I have to admit I have long enjoyed, Ali G. Irreverent, yes, but he's funny and he really exposes ignorance. I actually think that he's on to something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Lox Date: 17 Nov 06 - 05:22 PM Well I suppose you wouldn't know your arse from your elbow anyhow. And yes my approach works because it prevents me from being too hard on easy targets such as you. So you want play the leading lady at the Opera ... feel free. And you like offering props to your "niggas" - well - if it makes you feel better ...(?) As for boring old stodgy whiite gits living in beards, you clearly know a lot more about them than I do. Perhaps that is why you demonstrate such curiosity for my world. I think young Clit is developing a crush ... Senor Jamon - I fear I must disappoint you. My arse and my world are not at your disposal. That is not my disposition - and I am not disposed to changing - this position. Though what my arse disposes of you are free to take into your possession. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:48 PM Yer all arse Lox.. I wouldn't know where to start or stop.... So you can only make fun of something if you are that thing??? What a stupid, blinkered approach to anything.... Can you only sing opera of you're a fat white broad??? NO! Can you only offer props to your "niggas" if you're black??? NO! Can you only sing folk music if you're an ugly stodgey old boring white git in a beard? Thank FK NO!! What a boring world you must live in, Lox.... I'm glad -I- don't live there. (I'm sure you'll agree.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: GUEST,lox Date: 17 Nov 06 - 03:53 PM Richard pryor caricatured black american attitudes - he was black Mel brooks caricatured jewish attitudes - he was jewish Alf Garnett caricatured middle english attitudes - guess what ... he was a middle englander Cohen caricatures khazak attitudes - he's an educated Brit Clinton - you just carry on sniffing my arse - maybe I'll grow you a bunch! =') |
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Subject: RE: BS: Borat film exploits Romanian gypsies From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 Nov 06 - 01:17 PM Kiss this |
