Origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare

Subject: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:40 AM

Hi,

I know there have been some previous threads (with limited info) and two posted songs. Does anyone know what sources were used for Old Sow and Molly Hare songs in the DT?

Does anyone have lyrics for Knit Stockings; Grandma Blare/Blair; Old Granny Blair; Fairy (Fairies') Reel; Herring Song; Fisher Laddie, (Largo's) Fairy Dance?

Mainly I'm interested in understanding what is the connection between Old Sow and Molly Hare songs. Anyone?

Anyone have lyrics to "De old Hare"? Anyone have lyrics to "Old Sow" that are connected to Old Molly Hare?

Thanks,

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:01 PM

I've looked at the DT versions and they seem to be slightly different from the ones I've heard. I notice that one version is called SUZANNA'S A FUNICLE MAN. I don't know what "Funicle" means, but I've seen it somewhere else as "funnyful" or "funniful" (I assumed it meant "funny" or "full of fun"). The other two versions in DT are THE OLD SOW SONG and THE OLD SOW (2).

The Yetties recorded a version that was nearest to the last one above, on their album "In Concert" (1979) called "Suzannah's A Funny Old Sow", but it had the chorus from the first one. The only other version I've heard was by Rudy Vallee "The Old Sow Song" - I think hsi was similar to the 2nd version above.

None of this helps provide the ifno you wanted, sorry! But maybe it will help someone else provide it, you never know...

Subject: ADD Version: Old Molly Hare
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:20 PM

Here's my transcription for Old Molly Hare. Corrections please. You can listen in "The Roots Music Listening Room:"

Old Molly Hare Clayton McMichen; Riley Puckett
W 146079-2 1928

(Fiddle)

Old Molly Hare, What ya doing there?
Running through the cotton patch as hard as I can tear.

(Fiddle)

Old Molly Hare, What ya doing there? (thar)
Sitting in the corner, smoking a cigar

(Fiddle)

Old Molly Hare, What ya doing there? (thar)
Sitting in the corner, playin' a guitar

(Fiddle)

Old Baby Hare, What ya doing there?
Running through the cotton patch as hard as I can tear.

(Fiddle)

Old Molly Hare, What ya doing there?
Running through the cotton patch as hard as I can tear.

(Fiddle)

So many years since I've been gone
Pretty little gal with a red dress on.

(Fiddle)

Old Baby Hare, What ya doing there?
Running through the cotton patch as hard as I can tear.

(Fiddle)

Old Molly Hare, What ya doing there?
Sitting in the corner, pulling at a hair.

(Fiddle)

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 10:28 PM

The oldest lyrics may be "De Old Hare" circa 1850 in Christy's Panorama Sonster NYC, Pub: WH Murphy.

I doubt anyone can find those lyrics!

Anyone know the connection between the old Sow and Old Molly Hare? Similar melodies?

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:52 AM

I first heard Suzanna's a funicle man on the radio in England around 1946.

I did hear that it is from Somerset and is a farrowing song and was sung to sows in farrow to make them feel comfortable while popping out those little piglets.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:06 PM

Anyone know where I can find any MP3's or versions of Old Sow/Suzanna's A Funicle Man on-line?

Suzanna's A Funicle Man seems like a fairly obscure song.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:36 PM

Richie, I've heard others sing it, but nobody sings Old Sow half as well as Bert. If you can reset your cookie and send him a Personal Message, I'm sure he'd be glad to send you an MP3.
Send me an e-mail if you need cookie reset help.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:52 PM

Certainly, just give me your email address.

As far as I know "Suzanna's A Funicle Man' is the original and it has undergone many changes by people trying to make sense of it.

It was very popular in 1946.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:03 PM

Thanks Joe and Bert,

E-mail me at [e-mail]

Bert, do you see any relationship (melodic) with "Suzanna's A Funicle Man" and "Old Molly Hare"?

Thanks,

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:22 PM

Mp3 on it's way.

Thanks Joe, but don't forget that Seamus does a great version as well.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:36 PM

I've not heard Old Molly Hare but it doesn't seem to scan with The Old Sow Song; not enough syllables.

Molly Hare seems very American to me.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Richie
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:48 PM

Bert,

Gr8 recording, I thank you!

Here's what the Folk Index has:

Old Molly Hare [Me IV-B15]

Rt - Knit Stockings; Old Granny Blair; Old Sow
At - Grandma Blare/Blair
Rm - Fairy/Fairies' Reel
Uf - Old Granny Blair

Maybe the "Old Sow" is a different song? All the Old Sow songs seem to be related. Not sure where FOLK INDEX got that info.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:55 PM

See other discussions here for references to C19 broadside editions ('Little Pigs'). Richardson reckoned to have learned the song from his father Ebenezer. He sang "funiful" rather than "funicle"; the original line, though, seems to have been "My dad was a bonny wee man".

See George Frampton's paper '... and they calls I Buttercup Joe: Albert Richardson, the Singing Sexton of Burwash, 1905-76' in the latest edition of the Folk Music Journal (vol 9 number 2 2007, 149-169) for more detail, and a lot more on Richardson and his recordings.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 10:00 PM

I posted this a little while ago, but it seems to have gone into the ether...

to my ear, there's no relation between the "Susanna's a Funicle" sort of Old Sow song and Old Molly Hare at all. My guess is that they're grouped in the Folk Index under "Rt" (= "related title") merely by the animal/fanciful theme, rather than having any true relationship of tune or words.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 10:12 PM

That would be my guess also.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 10:33 PM

OLD MOLLY HARE
[from Thomas W. Talley "Negro Folk Rhymes"; Kennikat edition, 1966; pg. 22; originally published in 1922]

Ole Molly Har'!
What's you doin' thar?
"I'se settin' in de fence corner, smokin' seegyrar."

Ole Molly Har'!
What's you doin' thar?
"I'se pickin out a br'or, settin' on a Pricky-p'ar"

Ole Molly Har'!
What's you doin' thar?
"I'se gwine cross de Cotton Patch hard as I can t'ar"

Molly har' to-day,
So dey all say
Got her pipe o' clay, jes to smoke de time 'way.

"De dogs say 'boo!'
An' dey bark too.
I hain't got no time fer to talk to you."

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Richie
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 11:17 PM

Here are two "Old Sow" verses from WE Bird in 1925:

Wheat bread or corn bread or any such a thing,
The old sow died with the measles in the spring.

The old sow's leg or the old sow's tail,
I'll make as good a hammer as ever drove a nail.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 11:33 PM

In my opinion, the rhyme 'Old Molly Hare', as given by Fisk University professor Thomas W. Talley, documents a number of "smart alecky" retorts or 'put-downs' that a person might say to someone asking him or her "What're doin?". In contemporary language, such a retort as given above would be considered a "diss".

The quoted responses to the 'what you doin there?' question, remind me in intent & spirit of this retort that I've heard to the "What ya doin?" question:

"None of your b.y. bizzness."

Btw, I've never been sure why it was 'b''y' bizzness, except that was probably how folks thought business was spelled...Besides that b.y. part helps the rhyme to work better.

Put in informal contemporary English, that last verse would be:

"The dogs say boo
And they bark too
I aint got no time
to talk to you"

-snip-

Though I can't put my finger on any examples of other rhymes [in Talley's collection or elsewhere] where that specific verse is found, I wouldn't at all be surprised if "The dogs say boo..." was used as an ending in other rhymes.

And I can just hear "The dogs say boo..." being used alone as a put down to an inquisitive, busy body person. We'd call such a person a "Bettina Butt-in". And we'd applaud a good quick witted public put-down given to such a person.

Of course, nowadays, you have to be careful who you put down and how. If you even look wrong at a person, let alone say something smart back to him or her, you could be in deep do do. Which is why the hip-hop coined phrase "My bad" got [and still gets] so much use. "My bad" is one way to quickly apologize for any accidental wrongdoing in order to avert possible heavy duty consequences.

Don't get me wrong. I'm definitely not saying that I yearn for the good ole days of "Old Molly Hare". In many many ways those days were'nt all that good.

Besides, people are still coming up with quick witted put-downs in hip hop music and elsewhere. And some of those put downs are even clean...

But as for me, I like the rhythm & feel of

"The dogs say boo
and they bark too
I aint got no time
to talk to you."

Can't you just see girls saying that with their face averted to the side away from the person they are talking to, and the palm of their right hand held up just below their face in the "stop/don't even go there" position?

I can.

I can just see that verse fitting in with the very popular children's handclap taunting rhyme "Brick Wall Water Fall"-and in other such rhymes.

A version of that rhyme from multiple sources goes:

Brickwall Waterfall
Girl, you think you know it all.
You don't. I do.
So Poof with the attitude.
Peace Punch Captain Crunch.
I got something you can't touch.
Bang Bang Cho Cho Train.
Wind me up I'll do my thing.
Reeses Pieces 7 Up
Mess with me, I'll mess you up.
Wait, Come back.
You need a Tic Tac.
Not 1 Not 2 But the whole six-pack.
I'm not trying to be mean
but you need some Listerine.
Not a sip not a swallow.
But the whole dang bottle.

-snip-

That's how many versions of that rhyme end. But-kudos to Old Molly Hare"-I can just hear this ending-with the word "dog" in the first line changed to "ghosts":

"Ghosts say boo.
and dogs bark too.
I don't have no time to talk to you."

-snip-

Hey, it works for me. What do you think?

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 11:44 PM

Correction:

Usually the "Brick Wall Water Fall" lines are given this way:

Brickwall Waterfall
Girl, you think you got it all.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:35 AM

Aha, The Sow Took the Measles is a different song.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:29 AM

Bert, or anyone else here, can you please explain what "funicle" means, or give the origin of the word?

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:35 AM

Thanks Bert,

That is the song I was looking for. It's also named the "Old Sow Song." There isn't much info about it in the DT. Someone said it was from the 1700's. The Traditional Ballad Index only had 1931:

Sow Took the Measles, The
DESCRIPTION: The singer founds his property on a sow. When the sow takes the measles and dies, he makes a saddle of her hide, a thimble of her nose, a whip of her tail, pickles and/or glue of her feet, etc.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1931 (Fuson)
KEYWORDS: animal talltale technology disease
FOUND IN: US(Ap,NE,So,SE)
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Randolph 412, "The Measles in the Spring" (1 text, 1 tune)
BrownIII 177, "My Old Sow's Nose" (1 text)
Linscott, pp. 253-255, "The Old Sow Song" (1 text, 1 tune)
Fuson, p. 185, "The Old Sow" (1 text, in which the old sow "died in the winter last spring")
Lomax-FSNA 15, "The Sow Took the Measles" (1 text, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 405, "The Sow Took The Measles" (1 text)
DT, SOWMEASL*
Roud #17759
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Red Herring" (theme)

Anyone have other versions or info?

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:32 AM

Funicle doesn't mean anything any more than the grunts, farts and whistles do. The song is supposed to be sung to a PIG ferchrissakes.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:57 AM

Fine, Bert, but is there any documentary evidence that the original version had the word "funicle" in it? I don't suppose the pigs would be able to confirm this.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:59 AM

I thought it meant or is a perversion of: "funny ol'" or "funny old."

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:16 PM

See my post earlier for an answer to that question.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 02:09 PM

Dunno Scrump! I guess most of the pigs would be either bacon or sausages by now.

So, Can anyone come up with THE ORIGINAL version? The version I heard was in 1946 (and from memory at that) - anyone got an earlier version.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 02:35 PM

Oops, sorry Malcolm, I missed your earlier post or didn't read it properly. Yes, I always thought the versions I had heard said "funniful" or similar, not "funicle". But I've never seen the written lyrics so I didn't know for sure.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:55 PM

Richardson's 'Old Sow' is available on various cds (including Topic's Voice of the People series) but at the moment it can be heard online at  http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=vm61Dz7Nr5g

George Frampton's article in FMJ includes a transcription of the words as recorded in 1928, and one page of sheet music ("authentic version by Albert Richardson, original singer on Regal Zone. T.5178") based on the later recording of 1934.

Subject: RE: Lyr origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 04:06 PM

Ok 1928 anyone earlier

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: GUEST,Marilyn
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 06:56 PM

My Uncle Jim used to sing this song in the forties and fifties.
The Old Sow

There was an old farmer that had an old sow,
Snort how, now hi diddle dow.
there was an old farmer that had an od sow,
Bless it for all the day.
Suzan is a funny old man,
Man an hi diddle dan,
Suazn is a funny old man.
Now this old sow had nine little pigs
Higs ,pigs hi diddle digs.
Now this old sow had nine little pigs,
Bless it for all the day
(there is probably more....)

Subject: RE: Origin: The Old Sow/Old Molly Hare
From: BrennanCarley
Date: 16 May 25 - 03:13 PM

>The oldest lyrics may be "De Old Hare" circa 1850 in Christy's >Panorama Sonster NYC, Pub: WH Murphy.
>
>I doubt anyone can find those lyrics!

From Christy's Panorama Songster NYC, Pub: WH Murphy.

As sung and written by old Jim Carter.

Ole hare what you doing dar.
Setting in de corner smoking pipe.
Full dried cut tobaco.
Ole hare what you doing dar.
Setting in de corner eating faty bread,
Wid cracklins in it.

I put my dog on de hare track.
Run little ways turn round back,
He fool de nigger dat time.
Dolly eat ob wood chuck eat it in a minite.
Eat it so divlish quick, I had no time to skin it,
I hadent time to take de hair off.

De ole hare run into de log,
Lay still says coon I think I hear de dog,
He can't catch me I know.
I give my dog a leff bone,
I hit him on de back he run rite home,
I could hunt no more that day.