BS: Legalise Prostitution?

Subject: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Y_Not
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM

With the latest events in Ipswich I now wonder if the UK should legalise Prostitution creating a safer environment for "working girls" and their clients.
We have Massage Parlours to which the police turn a blind eye and allow them to trade, so why not legalise them.

The Women would be safer than walking the streets.
They would have regular health checks.
Clients would be monitored.
The women would be registered and liable to pay tax on their earnings.

Y_Not

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:21 PM

It's not really a bad idea but it's never going to happen.
Imagine the headlines.......

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:24 PM

Well it should happen, it works well in Australia
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM

It kind of works in Amsterdam too so why not give it a try. Of course there will always be some women who prefer to work 'alone' to save having to give a cut to the brothel owner.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:42 PM

When that happens I'm returning to union representation! Love to organize those folks...

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM

Legalisation would solve a lot of problems. In my country too.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:04 PM

Currently in the UK, prostitution is not illegal however the laws serve to make providing sex in exchange for money difficult and dangerous. Soliciting (advertising sexual services), streetwalking and brothels (where more than one woman sells sex in an apartment) are illegal. Kerb crawling is illegal in most of the UK but different laws apply in Scotland. In all of the UK, paying for sex with a woman is not illegal. These laws firmly place the criminality of prostitution on the women.

The only legislation required therefore is the legalization of brothels; a word of caution however is necessary.

If the process is legalised the situation for the trafficked victim remains largely the same. It does not help to alleviate her suffering, as there is no law against men visiting prostitutes. There is also no reason to raid the brothel, such that a woman may be trapped in a violent and abusive situation for many years with no means of escape.

The Law in Sweden - introduced in 1999
The Swedish law introduced the notion that prostitutes were victims of male violence, making the purchaser of sex the criminal and the seller of sex the victim. The reasons why these laws work are simple – they criminalise the men that visit prostitutes.

If anyone would like to see serious debate on this subject in the UK consider this on-line petition
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/prostitutionreform/

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Yes, it would in the USA too, Wolfgang. And not because of prudery and the fundies, either.

Besides, as the old Madam said, "How're gonna figure the amount to tax? Ya gonna put a meter on it?"

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

Decriminalize ***all*** victimless crimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

Prostitution isn't a victimless crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM

You didn't think that one through, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:28 PM

The debate will go on forever. It 'sorta' works in some places, but most areas will resist the idea, so it will never be adequately tested and details worked out.

ANY setup will be abused, but it sure seems like there should be a way to reduce problems with regulated, licensed places.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:45 PM

I insist that unless a given "crime" involves force or fraud or people under the legal age of adulthood then it should be legal. Prostitution, of course involves two (or more!) adults and an agreed-upon exchange of money for services. It is, in short a business transaction no more or less than buying a loaf of bread or trading on the stock exchange. Imagine what we could do if our legal justice resources were freed up from these silly and impossible enforcement tasks!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:46 PM

Ever watch a guy in a bar spending his weeks wages on some women who never opens her purse ?

Ever watch a guy spending a weeks wage on a meal with some girl he met for the first time three days ago ?

Ever listen to two girls talking about taking her boyfriends credit card shopping or getting him to pay for a holiday ?

I thought it was legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:13 PM

There's nothing illegal about being stupid. I think it's called having a free will.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:41 PM

I had this disscussion with a good friend a few years ago.

There will always be men who need sexual relief and, maybe, just to be physically close to a woman and who, for one reason or another turn to prostitutes to fulfill those needs. If there is agreement between the woman and her customer and both are satisfied with the bargain where's the problem? I, for one, do not believe that any group should be able to dictate to others what they feel to be 'right'. If you don't like it, don't go there.

If prostitution was legal there would be more chance to make sure that brothels were inspected and that the women were there of their own free will. Any unofficial brothels could still be raided and closed down.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: *Laura*
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:42 PM

Emma B - it's not just on the women. It's illegal for prostitutes to solicitise... that includes male ones.

Although having said that we looked at a case once when I was dstudying law... the male prostitutes hadn't got prosecuted because the law reffered to 'common prostitutes' and that was decided to be women not men... but after that case it was changed.

But yes... the law does pin everything on the prostitue... whether they are male or female.

And yes - legalising it would probably be a really good idea but I bet it's not going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:44 PM

And it would be so much easier for the decent women in town who needed to gossip about the others -- they'd have a much easier time knowing on whom down to look!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:50 PM

Isn't it legal in the state of Nevada?
How is that working out?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:52 PM

Amos - I think that should read 'decent'. In my book there isn't much decent about the types who make that sort of judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM

The problem with both arguments for legalization and arguments for further criminalization (ie making the johns the criminals as Emma B mentioned above) is that prostitution eludes all attempts to apply a one-size-fits-all description of what a prostitute is and why she plies her trade. Assuming that all prostitutes work in the business of their own free will ignores the very real issues of sex trafficking and abusive pimps. But assuming that all prostitutes are abused victims is equally falacious. For some, giving blowjobs just beats hell out of working at Waffle House (and nobody ever made $300 an hour waiting tables). Given a hundred prostitutes there would probably be a hundred different stories of why they're living the life. Some are victims, some aren't. Coming up with a legal status that best serves the interests of both groups is probably impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

Well you aint ever gona stop prostitution.
So for me the most important issue is to protect the prostitutes and look after their health, as well as the customer.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Big Phil
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

The Pavement Hostess, oldest profession in the world. It will never change.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:14 PM

If prostitution is legalized...who is responsible if one prostitute gives aids to a large group of men?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM

Actually Bee-dubya-ell what I posted does not totally represent my own opinions but thank you for treating the discussion with the seriousness I believe it merits.

I have worked with prostitutes and their children as part of my professional life and, while not advocating the Swedish system 100%, I do believe that women (or male) sex workers should not be criminalized while their "clients" incur no such "penalty"
Trafficking, while representing a small part of the sex industry in the UK at the present time, is nevertheless still a nightmare for a large number of women and I felt it was necessary to also point out there was no "simple" solution.

I don't however believe for one minute that the present situation has anything in its favour and some action is required urgently to prevent a re-occurence of the sort of daily abuse that the Ipswich murder case has served to bring to the attention of "Middle England"

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM

There was a proposal here in SJ (Saint John, New Brunsick, Canada) recently that the 'johns' caught with prostitutes should have their vehicles confiscated. Much like when you are caught fishing 'out of season'. Great idea I and many of the citizens here thought. But, no it wasn't accepted due to violation of rights or whatever.

Most prostitutes are out on the streets solicitating themselves to feed a drug habit. They have not chosen this way of life as profession. Legalizing prostitution would eiminate this. These girls are victims of a society that has deeper problems.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

If it's legalized, Georgian, screening for AIDS and other STD's could be much more easily done, even so it is also incumbent upon the consumer to take precautions.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM

correction ..

I meant to say "Legalizing prostitution would not eiminate this."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:28 PM

Legalizing prostitution would create 2 classes of prostitutes.

The legalized ones who have chosen the profession and would be willing to go through the safety health precautions, having a 'standard' so to speak. But with this is a higher cost for their services.

The other class would be the street kids as I mentioned. out there feeding their drug habit. Believe me, there is a large population of these tragics victims out there. Their costs would be lower therefore attracting johns out there abusing them for a cheap thrill. Sad, very sad.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:28 PM

I think that it will become clearer on this thread, because the first 93 times it was discussed seemed to have arrived at no conclusions worth a darn.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM

That's true Guest ... it is a complicated situation. The solution is not in legalizing it. A problem, never the less, that society does not want to confront.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:37 PM

Bobad. The angle I am looking at the responsibility thing from is:- If someone, through their profession causes injury to a client, they usually have third party insurance...in the UK anyway....as they have a duty of care...so they take responsibility and the insurance company pay up. If prostitution is legalised and prostitution becomes recognised as a 'service industry', then prostitutes will also have a duty of care...how many will take third party insurance and will the Government make them liable in any case?   Food for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Number 6 is unfortunately correct in his summing up but confronting the situation is long overdue!

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM

We need as a society to effectively treat mental illness and drug addiction as illnesses and not a law enforcement problem. This will not only improve the lots of the sufferers, but it will improve EVERYBODY'S lot. Non-using addicts could more effectively make rational choices, of which practicing prostitution would quite likely not be one of them. And dry addicts would not need to impose their addiction on the rest of us by criminal activity to support their habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM

"We need as a society to effectively treat mental illness and drug addiction as illnesses and not a law enforcement problem."

You hit it right on the button there saul. I certainly agree with that statement.

There is one other problem and that is, there is big money to be made in the trafficking of drugs ... it's a business that has sophisticated marketing strategies ... these strageties ensure the cash flow is flowing ... albiet paying protection right up to the top of our governments and ensuring there is a market base that consumes drugs. This issue, has also to be dealt with.

Until these 2 issues are remedied, we will continue to witness the tragedy of the our children hustling on the streets.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

Agreed, Saulgoldie and 6. It will take fundamental changes to our society. I'm not sure that those who have the power to make the changes have the guts to do what must be done -- or want to do so.

As for brothels -- there really aren't many in the US. Even here, where the "Walled City" used to stand, you'd be hard put to find a "formal" working girl. They're out there, sure. But they aren't all that easy to find.

Besides, as one of them said back in the Sixties, "I'm getting out of this business. There's too much amateur competition."

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:23 PM

Rap and Brucie,

Okay, I'll bite...

Why isn't prostitution a victimless crime???

It, most certainly, is victimless...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:06 PM

Possibly because some would argue that the prostitutes are victims of life. OK a huge generalistion but we do hear tales of women forced to work the trade for a number of reasons. Illegal entry into the country and the need to fly under the radar can produce sex slaves too scared to report the abuse they recieve from their pimps so as not to alert the authorities to their existence?

Legal brothels would presumably ensure the girls are here legally. So the illegals would still be offering cut price thrills on the streets. Not sure of the solution to that.

Other girls claim to hate the business but need to do it for a fix.

I would personally rather see the money that would have to be ploughed into legalising it go to setting up rehab projects.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:08 PM

Bobert, it's not the prostitute/client relationship where the victimization lies, but in the prostitute/pimp, prostitute/brothel, prostitute/drug dealer relationship. It's a victimless crime if and only if the prostitute is working of her own free will and receiving most of the money she takes in. If she gets $100 for a service and has to give $75 of it to her pimp, then she's a victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:42 PM

That seems to be more a labor/management issue, B-zer... I still don't see where anyone is a victim of a crime like when someone puts a gun to yer head and steals yer wallet...

Okay, if one wants to generalize then there are no victimless crimes but if one wants tode-incarcerate America, or any other country for that matter, then this idea of victimless crimes has to ahve a greater understanding... Half the people in US prisons are there for crimes for which there were no victims... Unless you mean that sellin' a quarter ounce of pot for $75 whcih is a tad on the price gouging side... But, hey, buyer beware... No one held a gun to yer danged head and made you pay $75 for the quarter.. You could have said, "pass..."...

That's what I mean...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:14 PM

Bobert have you ever seen the face of a 15 year old girl who was working the streets for drugs ... after some john smacked her face a few times for the enjoyment of it ... then throwing her out of his car without payment. Not a nice site. Plenty of hookers are out there working for their pimp merely because he threatens them with a pistol whipping.

I's say plenty of prostitutes are victims, plenty. Life is cruel to the vulnerable out their on the streets.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:34 PM

When the sex trade is not legal, the girls and guys have no protection other than their pimps. To suggest they are not victimized is to say they have 100% control of that decision. Getting into the trade is easy. Getting out is damned near impossible until the gal or guy is so worn out or so beat up that the pimps just don't see any profit in them anymore. I'd call that a crime involving a victim.

The johns or johnettes are also involved in crime because they support an illegal trade through their purchase.

The health of prostitutes is generally not good. STD transmission is high--although there are no reliable data for North America. In countries where the trade is legal and controlled, the transmission of STDs is lower than countries where it isn't. Period. (The bigger risk is Heb B and C, not HIV; subsequently, people who have unprotected sex with prostitutes are at higher risk than if they have unprotected sex with people from the general population. Yes, having unprotected sex with a prostitute is stupid. BUT, it must happen, because the frequent non-use of condoms explains why the transmission rate is higher from the prostitute population, that and the higher rate of infection. In countries where the trade has been legalized and the girls/guys must have regular medical exams and blood work, the infection rate is about that of the general population. Concomitat with the sex trade is IV drug use. In Glasgow, a study shows that the regular use of drugs takes place in 81% of the prostitutes who were in the survey. Whether or not the chicken came before the egg is a different matter.)

To say that prostitution is a victimless crime says two things:

1) It is a crime
2) Prostitutes are being perceived as people who want to be prostitutes

I don't doubt that some do, but maybe most would prefer to be working at something else. They will not be able to work at something else until they can get out of the trade. If people are going to prostitute themselves, they require the protection of the State, not the protection of pimps.

No doubt the highly-paid call girl/guy population will be mentioned as examples of people who have, for one reason or other, been successful. Fact is, they are the exception, not the rule.

I hasve never used the services of a prostitute, although I have known a few. They ain't happy people for the most part, and their work is the reason they aren't happy. That's anecdotal and really of no use in this statement, other than to say that I think legalization is answer number one, and help is answer number two. Unless of course we are willing to toss these people away as rubbish, in which case, not much of what I said matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:40 PM

Studying the materials left by those who were "in the life" you learn that even in the days of bawdy houses and madams, when men were men and women knew it, the girls died of overdose, violence, disease and even exposure.

The "best cities" for prostitution were St. Louis and Fairbanks (approximately 1900). There the girls were medically checked and the police kept a check on rapacious madams, making sure that the girls got a decent deal for the work they did -- and servicing 30 men in one night was not unusual in either city. In these cities the girls could even go to work for themselves, even OWN their own house and home!

However, the do-gooders (one of which was the US Army) forced the closure of these red light districts. The houses were raided, the girls were dispersed or jailed. No longer could the police find "real" criminals by checking out the longer houses. No longer were the girls checked medically, and there were no more checks upon pimps and madams.

Back in those days, the "house" was more than a place for sex -- it also functioned as a sort of social club (yes, like in the movie "Cheyenne Social Club"), a place men (often alone) went to spend less time being lonely and to have some fun (and it didn't always involve sex). Look how many jazzmen started in sportin' houses....

It was a different time in American history, a culture so different that if you were suddenly sent there you'd get a shock similar to one of being set down unexpectedly in a primitive country. That is NOT to say that it was better for the girls -- far from it! Read the police reports of the period, or the obituaries if they were printed at all.

Now, the girls are preyed upon and the "good" madam is all but nonexistent. It would take a fundamental change in American (and I suspect British) society to "decriminalize" prostitution.

Besides, those little bugs have bigger bugs upon their backs...as they say, follow the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:48 PM

Good post Rapaire .

In Canada Regina Sask. is one of the worst ... a lot of the victims are aboriginal

bill

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:26 PM

Excellent post Peace.

I believe that in Canada prostitution is not illegal but soliciting for the purpose of prostitution is. I could never get my head around that one, seems like semantic mumbo-jumbo to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:39 PM

If prostitution were legalized ... what (in GAWD'S name) would we do with all the churches? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Gulliver
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:45 PM

Wolfgang, surely prostitution is legal in Germany? I've seen enough
brothels there (not that, ahem, I've ever, actually, emm..., you know?).

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:56 PM

"Now, the girls are preyed upon and the "good" madam is all but nonexistent."

You got that right!

The world would be a far better place if brothels were run by women. Freed from their pimp, their health would be their ticket to work. Clean prostitutes would knock a big hole in the drug trade.

It would be a very rational way to address a very big problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:00 PM

Gotta agree with you on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:24 PM

"Clean prostitutes would knock a big hole in the drug trade"

A lot of the street girls fall into drugs first .... prostitution becomes an evil necessity to feed the habit. The 'good madam' is also a good business woman ... I doubt there are many that will setup their own rehabs to clean the girl first to meet the brothel's standards. Therefore the the 'street girl' remains on the street, easy pickings for the pimps and abusive johns.

The drug business is a BIG business in it's own rights ... I really don't think the good madam's business will negatively affect the drug trade at all.


biLL