BS: Legalise Prostitution?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:38 PM

There's a great difference between legalising and decriminalising (Thanks Bobert).

We need to accept that laws are made by very stupid people ('W' frinstance).

This very day in El Paso County Colorado they (the folks who make the laws) declared a state of emergency because it snowed - IN WINTER - IN COLORADO.

The problem needs to be taken care of in the voting booth.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 12:24 AM

number 6 - Regulated prostitution would probably not fix the problem of drugs but it would sure screw up the distribution on the streets.

It would also help to stop the spread of disease.

I also agree that Big Mamma could be as bad as Big Poppa but I think the idea of womenn controlling prostitution is one step closer to women controlling their own bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 01:05 AM

What's the difference between a prostitute and a porn star?
Aren't they both doing the same thing for money?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:20 AM

Just for argument's sake, imagine a world where sexual intercourse was just between husband and wife, in the boundary of matrimony. There would be no STDs, no broken homes (leastwise, not because of infidelity), no exploited women, no bastardy, none of the thousands of ills that follow sexual immorality. Why would anyone rail against such a notion? Such an ideal would be a foundational element in a moral utopia.

Does such an idea make you angry? Why? Is it realistic? Of course not! Why? Do you hate others judging you for your moral short-comings? Of course. Why? It's just a simple question of "are you in control of your body and it's drives or do the lusts of the flesh control you? And suppose someone does have such control? Does that make her or him a judge?

A lot of people DO have such control---in THAT area of their life, but I happen to agree with the writer of old, "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no, not one."

I don't think we need a legal authority to tell us what is right or what is wrong. We know what the ideal is and so often that ideal is denied us by our natures or our circumstances. That someone should starve to death or go into prostitution isn't much of a choice and the choice is a "no brainer". It's better to live. For many it's a wretched world we're born into. Many fight and claw for mere existence and for what its worth we take comfort and a little pleasure where we can.

Authority steps in to attempt to minimize the very real negative impact certain moral crimes have upon society as a whole. Its a balancing act that has been going on for all of recorded history and beyond. There are no easy answers. Prostitution has been legalized, glorified, spiritualized and enshrined in certain belief systems. It has been condemned and hunted down. But it never goes away because we are imperfect people with needs we can't always meet or we are not always sure of our moral footing when attempting to meet said needs.

If you care to check you will see that Rahab, a prostitute of Old Jericho figures into the Earthly linage of none other than Jesus Christ. While it's NOT a stamp of approval for prostitution it does demonstrate that it is not an unpardonable sin nor should it be something that stigmatizes one for life.

People are more important than some of the moral dilemmas they may find themselves in. As a general rule you might ask yourself if you are helping or hurting the person. Is what you are doing helping to keep them in a morally degrading situation or are you helping to show them a way out. Do you place your physical needs above another persons social and/or spirutual needs?

Submitted for your consideration and to further the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:33 AM

Wolfgang, surely prostitution is legal in Germany? (Gulliver)

I have read now a bit more about the position of prostitutes in Germany and must say that I did not yet know about the new law from 1/1 2002. Before that, prostitution was at best tolerated. For instance, any man then could claim that the trade (money against sex) was "against reasonable custom" (illegal) and he therefore had not to pay. Meanwhile the prostitutes have a right to get the money.

But still prostitution isn't a profession like others (social security, advertising and all that) and there are some legal opinions that the law from 2002 is not valid for violating our constitution. Argument: Protection of Human dignity demands that prostitution has to be pursued by the state.

Thanks for contradicting me, Gulliver, I know more now than I knew before.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 08:31 AM

dianavan ... I most certainly agree and cannot argue that legalization of would certainly have it's benefits in the protection of all invovled ... but there should also be the legalization and control of drugs to somehow cut down on the street prostitution.

And Yes ... women should be the ones that administer and manage brothels of femal prostitution.

Society should also be made aware that there is a large street population ... a dark world were the children, mentally ill are the targets of evil manipulation. Not only should we be made aware of this but we should show compassion and provide professional help to this population. They are the easy victims to not only serial killers, but regular beatings, rapes, drug overdoses and such. These atrocities go on because of our ignorance, and shear neglect.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:10 AM

Legalise prostitution? What a sensible idea. And, if for no other reason than that, it'll never happen in the UK (I'll eat my soiled shorts if it does, and I'll be delighted).

It works fine in other European countries (The Netherlands being, of course, the perfect example), why shouldn't it work here? And there would be a chance of getting some tax from the business too.

Number 6 - could you explain what you mean by 'legalisation and control of drugs' please? Doesn't 'legalisation' mean 'de-control'? I'd be interested to hear how it would work.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:42 AM

In the very few places in the US where prostitution is legal, the general population appear to have found it a "better arrangement," and public support for maintaining the status quo seems to be pretty general. Even in a few places where it's technically illegal, where it's fairly open it hasn't caused a lot of public concern.

While I haven't checked recently, some years back it was noticeable that the Nevada locales where it was legal had lower VD rates than where it was prohibited; and "way back when I was in the Army in Arizona," the Arizona counties adjacent to Mexican towns where it was legal were spectacularly lower in STD infection rates than where there was less ready access.

Twenty or thirty years ago, Colorado Springs voted on whether to legalize prostitution, but that vote failed by a few dozen votes. A candidate for mayor ran on the platform "I'm the biggest pimp in town so I might as well be mayor," and lost by a half-dozen votes.

(Colorado Springs is quite near the US Air Force Academy, which supplies - I'm told - the principal "client base" for prostitution there.)

Nevada permits prostitution, but indiviual localities can opt to ban it, and Las Vegas is a main exception. Prostitution is NOT LEGAL in Las Vegas (because the casinos don't want any distractions from their business?) but a recent report was that state courts have held that it's only the payment that's prohibited. One can call a provider (or her(?) agent) who is outside the area where it's illegal and give a credit card number, so that the payment occurs elsewhere and the prostitute will - according to reports - not be questioned regarding the "provision of services" within Las Vegas.

Having not lived in an area where it's legal, I can't offer any personal opinion about how well it works in practice.

I have had "casual acquaintance," in places where it was not legal, with a few "independents" (the ones I've met all had other day jobs, where I met them) who seemed quite ordinary persons who practiced of their own free will, mostly for the money. (Other reasons aside, I never had that much money to spend, so have no first hand knowledge of their "other business.")

Others with more direct contact with the trade do indicate that it's hard to find one (where it's not legal) not addicted to something. Currently in my area it's usually "meth." This suggests that some of the horror stories are at least partially supportable, although I can't say whether they're "controlled by others" or whether they're just enslaved by their addictions.

Few people are in a position to see all sides of it, or all the possibilities and/or risks. That makes it very difficult to take a firm stance for or against legalization (or simply de-criminalizing).

At least in my area, it's quite obvious that should a miracle happen and it be decriminalized, those who can't accept that not everyone agrees with their own "moral imperitives" would be quite certain to apply sufficient rules and restrictions to insure that the worst possible outcomes are the guaranteed result.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:38 AM

Strollin Johnny ... good question ... "'legalisation and control of drugs' .... what I mean by this is legalise all 'drugs' but still have government control over the standards and distribution ... much the same way liquor, handguns are controlled here in Canada. I'd feel more comfortable having the government administrating, maintaining strict standards and marketing of these substances than 'private enterprise'. I'd feel the same about prostitution if it was made legal. Laisser-faire would open doors for more problems.

Feel free to present your opinions regarding this. I'd be interested in hearing them.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:48 AM

I agree wholeheartedly. One problem, however, would be that I suspect the illegal suppliers would merely undercut the 'official' sources' prices, would be prepared to supply in much larger quantities than the 'official' sources, and would be happy to supply during what could be termed 'unsocial hours' - I doubt many chemists would be prepared to stay open all night for the purpose of giving succour to addicts.

Otherwise a good, if somewhat Bohemian, idea. I'd go for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:53 AM

There certainly would be illegal suppliers out to 'undercut' and many of our problems would still exist but not to the extent as we witness today ... but then, we can only try to remedy the problems the best way we can.

Thanks for your reply Johny.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 01:34 PM

I don't have any data to support it but I suspect that legalization and control of drugs would lead to a decrease in use because of the elimination of the thrill that comes with the "doing something illicit" factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM

I think you will find that bastardy is without stigma in the UK these days. More children here are born out of deadlock than within it.

I imagine that there is no more chance of elimination of prostitution (that is to say, the provision of sex for money and vice versa) than there is of eliminating masturbation or suicide. And indeed like masturbation but unlike suicide there seems to be no harm in the simple exchange of sex for money and vice versa. Unlike masturbation the side effects of prostitution may at first blush seem harmful, but are not the side effects in question the fruits of greed and capitalism and religion, rather than of the simple exchange of sex for money? Drug addiction is largely the product of greed and capitalism too.

And no, before you ask, I have never paid for sex, nor taken it violently or by other coercion, nor knowingly consorted with a prostitute.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 04:57 PM

Drug addiction is largely the product of young, inexperienced, vulnerable people being manipulated by bastards, Richard.

It's drug-dealing bastards (and their controllers - the 'Mr. Big' characters who wear expensive clothes, live in large houses, drive expensive cars, send their own darling children to private schools and would have anyone who sold drugs to their darling children beaten with a baseball bat at best or bumped off at worst) who need to be eliminated.

I never heard of a kid's life being wrecked or ended by shagging a whore (except maybe their equilibrium being upset slightly and temporarily by contracting a dose), but there are millions around the world whose lives have been wrecked and ended by drugs.

Prostitutes aren't the problem, drugs are.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:22 PM

Well said Johnny .... exactly.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:36 PM

I never heard of a kid's life being wrecked or ended by shagging a whore (except maybe their equilibrium being upset slightly and temporarily by contracting a dose), but there are millions around the world whose lives have been wrecked and ended by drugs.

Prostitutes aren't the problem, drugs are.

The 'whore's' life is wrecked.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:48 PM

Someone already said that the whore is entitled to do want s/he wants with her/his body. So, what's it to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM

Rapaire commented:

Besides, as the old Madam said, "How're gonna figure the amount to tax? Ya gonna put a meter on it?"

But that's how they finally got Al Capone. They couldn't get him for murders or bank robberies or prohibition violations, so they figured they'd look into his string of brothels.

They ended up (perhaps among other things), intercepting the dirty laundry that was sent out. They figured one piece of business resulted in one change of sheet and I think it was two towels. Converting the laundry count back into business volume, at the appropriate rate per John, they came up with the approximate gross revenue. They worked from there to taxes due, and Scarface Al went to jail on tax evasion.

As the old adage has it, "The power to tax is the power to destroy."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:24 PM

Legalisation of drugs is the only solution to a lot of problems. The governments could EASILY undercut the silly prices that dealers charge, and make it not worth the dealers bothering. The government would have no incentive to get people addicted (unless, I suppose, they were Tories or Republicans[joke]), people wouldn't have the illegal buzz that maybe encourages some of them to start, and people who aren't addicted and desperate are a lot less likely to take up prostitution, or burglary, or robbery with violence as a career. There would be far less need for prostitution to be illegal. It could become a safe professional public service.
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 06:59 PM

Why call a drug dealer a bastard? An insult to bastards. Be careful what you say, it may not be what you think. But if you stigmatise the drug dealer, why not stigmatise the other dealers in the addictive? Societal norms are not necessarily the best criteria.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 07:25 PM

How many of these girls/boys if clean of drugs would choose prostitution as a way of living? Until they are clean of drugs they are victims. Only then can they make choices based on what is best for themselves.

I'm unsure on this one. Legalising it makes it safer but does nothing to tackle the reason why they are doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 08:32 PM

Drug addiction is a mental health issue. We confuse the issue and thus throw ourselves off the path to resolution by treating it as a law enforcement issue. Alcoholics and nicotine addicts can freely seek help because they know they do not face jail time just by admitting their problem. And that is the way it should be.

Of course drug addicted hookers are victims. But they could only seek the kind of help they need (assuming it was freely offered as it SHOULD be) if they did not fear imprisonment.

I do not suggest that legalization of prostitution or certain substances are wonderful things for society. I suggest only that they are better ways of dealing with the problems than the ways we are now. No perfect solutions exist, but there are lesser evils. And right now, we have worser evils.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 08:34 PM

Prostitution should be legalized.

If humans must ascribe any purpose to life for any species, that purpose is basic reproduction; leaving your genes to perpetuate your species.

Sexual intercourse is such a basic biological urge to reproduce that it will not be denied. Therefore, let those that want or need to visit a prostitute to satisfy that urge do so in a way that both humans are least harmed, physically and emotionally.

"Margie's At the Lincoln Park Inn"

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:55 AM

Back to my question - what's the difference between a porn star and a prostitute? They both do the same thing for money.
But in today's society, a porn star can become a celebrity with a fan club, and entourage, and appear on legit TV talk shows....while the poor old hooker can't.
Why is one a glamorous celeb while the other ain't?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:43 AM

Because if you put it on the screen, big or small, voyers, idoits and their ilk will pay money to watch. Advertizers look for the biggest audiences to sell their wares, pseudo-intellectuals will discuss the fine points of art and the whole lot will con themselves into believing that somehow its now OK, somehow its sanitized. What's the difference? Marketing, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: cobra
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 03:05 AM

Why is one a glamorous celeb while the other ain't?

Could the answer be agents?

Time to ditch the pimps, girls, and get yourselves professional representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:44 AM

THe reason some cut it as porn stars is probably looks. If you stop and peer down the wrong backstreets, I'm told the sellers you see there are by no means so photogenic.

THe reason prostitutes are victims (when they are) is greed of others.

THe reason drug addicts are drug addicts is the greed of others who make and supply the drugs.

It's capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 11:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM

One of the saddest things I've ever seen is the Red-light district in Amsterdam.
It's better than having those girls on the street but its not good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:48 PM

Ain't that the truth, Seira Omar,

I don't think it has to be so public.

A red-light district is alot different than a brothel. A brothel could be discreet, regulated and safe.

A district makes it a tourist attraction and the prostitutes are the side-show.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 10:28 AM

I thought it was leagal in Germany, the brothels are anyway.
Atlantis (brothel)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Atlantis was one of the largest German brothels, located in an industrial area of Altenstadt, some 30 km north-east of Frankfurt am Main. It was opened in the fall of 2000 and was closed by authorities in March 2004 because of charges of large-scale tax evasion, pimping and trafficking in women. It was reopened in October 2004, but closed again a few days later; after protracted legal proceedings, the brothel was finally closed down.

The brothel was a converted spa, with indoor and outdoor pools, jacuzzi, three saunas, professional massage parlors, and a free bar (serving only non-alcoholic beverages). Pornographic movies are shown on several TV screens. Men walk around wrapped in towels, women are nude (enforced by house policy). The working women and men both paid the same daily entrance fee of 65€.

About 30-60 women sold sexual services. The standard price was 50 euros for half an hour of sex which normally included french kissing, oral sex without a condom and sexual intercourse with a condom. The money was paid directly to the woman, after the act. She got to keep it all; the brothel itself was financed from the entrance fees alone.

This is the legal framework on which this brothel as well several other German brothels base their business model. They present a facility where consenting men and women can meet each other, what takes place between them is their business and the club supposedly has nothing to do with it. The club however sets up and generally enforces a price structure and house rules, with disputes settled by club management.

A woman can expect to average about 200€ a day after the cost of the entrance fee. Legally, the women have to pay taxes on this amount, but few do since it is a cash-only business.

There were early and late shifts, and women generally worked 3-6 days a week. They are free to come and go as they please, within the shift structure.

Atlantis had an attached hostel where women could stay for 15 euros per night, sharing a room with three others.

There are no pimps on the premises, but some of the women have pimps or boyfriends who take a cut of their money and who pick them up after their shift ends at 4am. Some of these pimps use other women in the club to spy on their women in order to gain a good estimate of their earnings.

The majority of the women working in Atlantis were foreigners, mainly from Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, South America, Thailand, and Africa. Some of them lack legal work permits, and this is why the police occasionally carried out raids in Atlantis. Prostitution itself is legal in Germany, so the legally resident prostitutes and the customers face no consequences during these raids (except embarrassment), unless they carry illegal drugs.

Mandatory health checks for registered prostitutes have been abandoned by the German government since January 1, 2001, but Atlantis required regular STD and HIV tests from the working women.

In March 2004, police raided Atlantis and closed the club. Some 17 women were arrested for immigration violations. Two operators of the club were arrested under charges of tax evasion, pimping and trafficking in women; a third operator who was not present at the club during the raid fled to Spain and was arrested there soon after. A policeman was also arrested: he is accused of having informed the Atlantis management of police raids ahead of time.

As of 2005, there are three other clubs in Germany that operate like Atlantis and have a similar size: FKK Oase and FKK World, both located in the area north of Frankfurt am Main, and Artemis in Berlin (opened in Fall 2005). The two Frankfurt clubs have different owners; ownership of the Berlin club is unclear. Several dozen comparable but smaller clubs exist all over Germany. They are typically advertised as "Sauna clubs" or "FKK clubs" ("FKK" abbreviates the German Freikörperkultur which means "free body culture" or nudism). The first of these clubs was opened in Hennef near Bonn in the 1980s; the model is apparently based on the Brazilian brothels known as termas.

Most German brothels operate quite differently.
Prostitution in Germany
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
A prostitute in Germany, 1999Prostitution in Germany is legal and widespread. In 2003, the government changed the law in an effort to improve the legal situation of prostitutes. However, the social stigmatization of prostitutes persists, forcing most prostitutes to lead a double life. Authorities consider the common exploitation of women from Eastern Europe to be the main problem associated with the occupation.

Contents [hide]
1 Forms and extent of prostitution
2 History
3 Politics
4 Legal situation
5 High profile crimes and scandals
6 Sources and external links



[edit] Forms and extent of prostitution
Studies in the early 1990s estimated that about 150,000 - 500,000 women and some men work as prostitutes in Germany. The prostitutes' organization puts the number at 400,000, and this is the number typically quoted in the press today. From other studies, it is estimated that between 10% and 30% of the male adult population have had experiences with prostitutes.

Street prostitution. ('Straßenstrich') Regular street prostitution is often quite well organized and controlled by pimps. Some prostitutes have a nearby caravan, others use the customer's car, still others use hotel rooms. With the recent economic problems, in some large cities "wild" street prostitution has started to appear: areas where women work temporarily out of short-term financial need.

Eros centers. ('Bordell, Laufhaus') An eros center is a house or street ('Laufstraße') where women can rent small one-room apartments for some 80-150 Euro per day. They then solicit customers from the open door or from behind a window. Prices are set by the prostitutes; they start at 30-50 Euros for short-time sex. The money is not shared with the brothel owner. Security and meals are provided by the owner. The women may even live in their rooms, but most do not. Minors, and women not working in the eros center are not allowed to enter. Eros centers exist in almost all larger German cities. The most famous is the Herbertstraße near the Reeperbahn in Hamburg. The largest brothel in Europe is the eros center Pascha in Cologne, a 12 story building with some 120 rooms for rent and several bars.

Pascha brothel, Cologne, 2006Escort services. (Begleitagenturen) Escort services, where you hire a girl for "entertainment" or companionship - followed by sex - exist in Germany, but are not nearly as prevalent as in the U.S.

Bars. In bars, women try to induce men to buy expensive drinks along with the sexual services. Sex usually takes place in a separate but attached building. Prices are set by the bar owner, and the money is shared between the owner and the prostitute.

Apartment prostitution. (Wohnungspuffs) There are many of these advertised in the newspapers. Sometime run by a single women, sometimes by a group of roommates and sometimes as safehouses for traffickers.

Partytreffs and Pauschalclubs are a variation on partner-swapping swing clubs with paid prostitutes in attendance, as well as 'amateur' women and couples who get in without paying the flat-rate charge of about 80 to 120 euros that men pay, including food, drink and unlimited sex sessions, with the added twist that these are performed in the open in full view of all the guests.

FKK and Sauna Clubs the four to five-star establishments of the business, but not much more expensive, or sometimes even cheaper due to intense competition among the numerous clubs concentrated in North-Rhine-Westphalia (=NRW: Cologne, Duesseldorf) and Hesse (Frankfurt). These are brothels formatted after the typical German nudist resorts and public saunas that have existed from times immemorial as 'Frei-Koerper-Kultur-Anlage', 'Nacktstrand' and 'Badehaus'. As such the emphasis is more on wellness and relaxation than on 'nightlife': the establishments open before noon, everbody is naked and many offer park-like outdoor areas, swimming pools, whirlpools, saunas, therapeutic massage services, porno cinemas, dining rooms, private and public 'play rooms', bars ect. Both, clients and service providers pay an admission charge of from 35 to 65 euros, including use of all facilities, food and drinks (some do not allow alcohol or smoking). Prostitutes charge anywhere from 25 to 100 euro for a 20 to 60 minute pleasure session and get to keep it all. Proponents of legal prostitution hold this business model up as example for an ideal working environment for the women.


[edit] History
German prostitution was officially mentioned and lauded for the first time during the Council of Constance in the 12th century, was legalised and regulated in the 1920s to control venereal diseases (STDs). Prostitutes had to be registered with local health authorities and submit to regular STD tests.

During the Nazi era, street prostitutes were seen as degenerate and were often sent to concentration camps. Several of these camps, including Auschwitz, contained brothels, to reward wardens and cooperative inmates, and prostitutes were forced to work there.

After WW2, the country was divided into East Germany and West Germany. In East Germany, as in all countries of the Communist Eastern Block, prostitution was illegal and according to the official position it didn't exist. However there were high-class prostitutes working in the hotels of East Berlin and the other major cities, mainly targeting Western visitors; the Stasi employed some of these for spying purposes. -- Street walkers and female taxi drivers were available for the pleasure of visiting 'Wessies' or 'Westprinzen', too.

In West Germany, the registration and testing requirements remained in place but were handled quite differently in the various regions of the country. In Bavaria, in addition to scheduled STD check-ups regular HIV tests were required since 1987, but this was an exception. Many prostitutes did not submit to these tests, avoiding the registration. A study in 1992 found that only 2.5% of the tested prostitutes had a disease, a rate much lower than the one among comparable non-prostitutes. The compulsory registration and testing was abandoned in 2001. Since then, anonymous, free and voluntary health testing has been made available to everyone, including illegal immigrants. Many brothel operators require them.

Anything done in the "furtherance of prostitution" (Förderung der Prostitution) remained a crime until 2001, even after the extensive criminal law reforms of 1973. This put the operators of brothels in constant legal danger. Most brothels were therefore run as a bar with an attached but legally separate room rental. -- However, many municipalies built, ran and profited from high rise or townhouse-style high-rent Dirnenwohnheime (= whores' dormitories), to keep street prostitution and pimping under control. These are now mostly privatized and operate as Eros Centers. -- In 2001 a one page law sponsored by the Green Party was passed by parliament that made most aspects of prostitution and promoting it legal. Only pimping and trafficking remained illegal.


[edit] Politics
The coalition of Social Democrats and the Green Party that ruled until late 2005 attempted to improve the legal situation of prostitutes in the years 2000-2003. These efforts have been criticized as inadequate by prostitutes' organizations such as HYDRA, which lobby for full normality of the occupation and the elimination of all mention of prostitution from the legal code. The conservative parties in the Bundestag, while supporting the goal of giving prostitutes access to the social security and health care system, have opposed the new law because they want to retain the "offending good morals" status.

The churches run several support groups for prostitutes. These generally favor attempts to remove stigmatization and improve the legal situation of prostitutes, but they retain the long term goal of a world without prostitution and encourage all prostitutes to quit.

Alice Schwarzer and her branch of feminism rejects all prostitution as inherently oppressive and abusive; they favor a law like that in Sweden, where the ruling Social Democrats outlawed the buying of sexual services but not their selling.


[edit] Legal situation
Prostitution is legal in Germany, though it doesn't quite have the same status as a regular occupation. Income from prostitution is taxed at a slightly higher rate than income from normal occupations. Prostitutes even have to charge VAT for their services, to be paid to the tax office. In practice, prostitution is a cash business, and taxes are almost never paid and rarely enforced.

Since 2001 prostitutes and brothels are allowed to advertise. Many newspapers carry daily ads for brothels and for women working out of apartments. Many have websites on the Internet. In addition, sex shops sell magazines specializing in advertisements of prostitutes.

Early in 2005, it was reported that a woman refusing to take a job as a prostitute might have her unemployment benefits reduced or removed altogether [1]. A similar story appeared in mid-2003; a woman received a job offer through a private employment agency. In this case however, the agency apologized for the mistake, stating that a request for a prostitute would normally have been rejected, but the client mislead them, describing the position as "a female barkeeper" [2](German). To date, there have been no reported cases of women actually losing benefits in such a case.

Every city has the right to zone off certain areas where prostitution is not allowed (Sperrbezirk). The various cities handle this very differently. In Munich, street prostitution is forbidden almost everywhere within the city limits, in Berlin it is allowed everywhere, and Hamburg allows street prostitution near the Reeperbahn during certain times of the day. In most smaller cities, the immediate city center as well as residential areas are declared off-limits.

The only city in Germany with an explicit prostitution tax is Cologne. It was initiated early in 2004 by the city council ruled by a coalition of the conservative CDU and the leftist Greens. The sex tax applies to striptease, peep shows, porn cinemas, sex fairs, and prostitution. In the case of prostitution, the tax amounts to 150 euros per month and working prostitute, to be paid by brothel owners (the eros center Geestemünder Straße owned by the city is exempt). Containment of prostitution was one explicitly stated goal of the tax.

Foreign women from most countries can obtain a three-month tourist visa for Germany without problems. Many of them then work in prostitution. This is technically illegal, as the tourist visa does not include a work permit. MubIF


[edit] High profile crimes and scandals
There was a murder of six persons in a brothel in Frankfurt am Main in 1994. The Hungarian couple managing the place as well as four Russian prostitutes were strangled with electric cables. The case was resolved soon after: it was a robbery gone bad, carried out by the boyfriend of a woman who had worked there.

In 2003, Michael Friedman, popular TV talk show host and assistant chairman of the German Jewish community, became embroiled in an investigation of trafficking in women. He had been a client of several escort prostitutes from Eastern Europe who testified that he had repeatedly taken and offered cocaine. After receiving a fine for the drug charge, he resigned his posts.

Also in 2003, well-known artist and art professor Jörg Immendorff was caught in the luxury suite of a Düsseldorf hotel with seven prostitutes (and four more on their way) and some cocaine. He received 11 months on probation and a fine for the drug charges. He attempted to explain his actions by his "orientalism" and his terminal illness.

These cases were only deemed noteworthy because they involved murder and drug trafficking. Generally whore-mongering by celebrities and public figures is not viewed as very titillating by the German public and largely ignored by the media, the general attitude being: "So what, it's only sex...". On the contrary, followers of the German boulevard press will often find pictures of male and female celebrities (including foreign ones) posing happily with naked prostitutes in FKK clubs. Name pop bands have performed at the Cologne Pasha brothel's disco. All the major FKK-clubs have been 'exposed' in positive newspaper stories due to their effective public relations efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

Minds me of a Rodney Dangerfield type joke I coined some 30 years ago.... I don't get no respect. The other day, I went to a whorehouse at noon. There was a sign on the door. It said, "Gone to lunch. Go fuck yourself."

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Y_Not
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 08:00 AM

Dear All,

After reading all your replies, I am heartened by the overall response to this sensitive subject.
The problem I think is a lack of public sympathy and care towards the vulnerable minorities in our society.
The fact is that victims of serial killers throughout history have been The Very Young, The Elderley, Gay Men and Prostitutes.
A valid point was made that these women are feeding their drug addictions from their earnings, but some Pop Stars, Rock Stars and Film Stars do the same, the difference is that the latter have power and a voice in society and are above exploitation and abuse.

It seems the good news is, the man that committed these crimes in Ipswich has been caught.

I would like to wish you all Peace, Happiness and Prosperity for the New Year!

Y_Not

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 08:43 AM

As a prior poster has noted, prostitution is legal in Australia. Has been for some years - and I'm not aware of any major problems. The clients pay a 10 percent GST ( Goods & Services Tax ), so the gov't gets a slice of the action. The girls pay income tax, so the gov't gets another slice of the action, and the brothel pays company tax on profit so the gov't gets etc, etc. The girls are also covered by Workcover, a gov't injury insurance, in the event they pull a muscle or do their back in.
And now the Daily Planet, one of the more up-market brothel chains, is a public company listed on the stock exchange. So, with a tax on share transactions, the gov't gets etc, etc.
When thinking of what to buy the bloke with everything what about a few shares in a brothel. I reckon it would be real cool, when the boys are bragging around the barbecue about their Telco and Banking stock, to say you've got a couple of thou in brothel shares. Maybe shareholders even get a discount ..........

JG / FME

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:44 AM

It's still living off the sale of sex; it's still using others.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

I am totally in favor of legalised prostitution both male and female. The health inspections alone would make it worthwhile. Then add to it the elimination of vicious pimps who prey on illegal aliens and runaways.

Giant BUT - the men I have known who frequented prostitutes invariably chose the most degenerate, drug inflicted, scary dirty whore they could find. They seemed to enjoy degrading these women. Not about sex I think but power (or lack of it). These women are not likely to stand in line for a license or be available for a physical.   There will always be men and women who fall into this category for whatever reason - drugs, child abuse, mental illness - and customers who will use them.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM

You do know some strange people Mary.
I find it strange that legalised prostitution remains beyond the pale for many legislations, yet all around, biblically forbidden pastimes are being made legal, and even given the civil marital cloak of respectability.
There was an interview yesterday with the newly 'united' male partner of some male star of a TV programme here in the UK. When he was asked how it felt to be married, he was very insistent that he wasn't married but part of a civil partnership. When asked why he did it he said it was important that people who were against homosexuals were shown that it is normal, and that the more homosexuals married the more those against it would be 'forced' to recognise it.
I thought the use of the word 'forced' was an interesting insight into an attitude of mind I have long suspected existed, but it did seem like a crap reason to get hitched.
However for the purposes of this thread, yes I think prostitution should be legal, and as a quid pro quo illegal prostitutes should face higher penalties which might help make them want to go 'legal'
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:58 PM

An interesting(?) story revolves around one of the few legal brothels in the US.

So far as I've heard, Nevada is the only state where prostitution is legal, and even there it's a "local option." Other states may have a wide variation in how criminal it's considered.

The famous "Mustang Ranch" has operated as a legal brothel in Nevada, an hours drive from the nearest settlement, for a very long time -- at least a few decades.

A few years ago, the US Internal Revenue Service siezed the business in a tax evasion suit, which left the US Government in the position of owning (and for a time operating) a brothel.

The property has now been sold to (a) new private owner(s), reportedly in a classical "ten cents on the dollar" transaction, and is attempting to recover its former respectability; although details of just who (or what) now owns it seems pretty murky.

At one time one could buy, for the friend who had everything, a "share" in the Ranch. The "stock certificate" was rife with mumbo-jumbo legaleze making clear that it was a "souvenir" certificate and represented no "ownership" in the business, but as I recall someone (Maybe a Playboy article) said that at one point they represented an equivalence value of "one square foot of a bedsheet used by ???? at the Mustang ranch," and you could pick your favorite lady to fill in the ????.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 09:43 PM

Rapaire-
"It's still living off the sale of sex; it's still using others."

Unless you're independently wealthy, you're being used by others. I spent some 50 years being used by chemical companies, consumer organizations and magazines. I've spen the last 5 selling CDs, being used by customers. Not a reasonable argument against legalized prostituton.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 09:45 PM

but would you let your customers fist you for an ounce?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:17 PM

I know whores -

A series of SERIOUS problems unfold...and the question of the "egg or the chicken" occure.

1. Is it lobido or meth?

2. Is it hereditory or tight jeans?

3. Is it addiction or freedom?

4. Is it home or seeking father?

5. Is it drug need or sexual fix?

Unfortunately, the child/woman is so enwrapped that topside or bottom both look the same....."been down so long it looks likes up."

One of the nastiest....of the nastiest places for a woman (particularly a day by day older whore) to live within. Legalize....but STILL....the oldest "profession" has nothing but contempt, Folklore, Koran, Bible, SelfActualization,PimpsDaddys.

Humans...and women in particular .... were intended for so much than being a back-street, back-door whore.

Legalization will not redeem their degradation, decriminalization will not mend the broken soul....sex was intended for so much more than to will an empty stomach or an aching hole.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:30 PM

"sex was intended for so much more than to will an empty stomach or an aching hole."

Sez who?

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:12 AM

I suppose if we use our bodies or any parts thereof to make money, then we are prostitutes.
What's the difference between one part of the body and another?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:54 AM

Exactly!

...and whats the difference between a woman who marries a rich man for his money and a prostitute?

Believe me. There are many women who hate sleeping with their husbands but do so for the financial security.

The difference between prostitution and other forms of labour is that prostitution is far more dangerous and spreads disease.

Its time to clean it up and make it safe for both the Johns and the prostitutes. Prohibition doesn't work.

Actually, prostitutes need a good union organizer.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:51 AM

Legalize it.

With mandatory physical exams for disease, etc., and to check that the prostitute is not under age or mentally incompetent to decide whether he/she really wants to do this or not.

Severe punishments for pimping.

Pimps with prostitutes who are under age or being made to do it against their will or through drug addiction or something like that, get castrated with a dull chain saw, without anesthetic, and left in a roadside ditch to bleed out.

but I suppose the liberals wouldn't permit that.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: GUEST,Cruz
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:21 AM

Geez Midchuck! Some village needs you on their Vice Squad.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:32 AM

C'mon Midchuck, tell us how you really feel. *G*
I'm with you and Dianavan.

Most jobs nowadays have precautions in place, e.g. health examinations, health insurance (sick workers are unproductive), drug testing.
Most jobs, except for Hollywood showbiz and publishing don't have pimps.

Why not the same for prostitutes?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 12:00 PM

"Most jobs, except for Hollywood showbiz and publishing don't have pimps" Yes they do. They're called Management.

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM

Giok,
For many years I was the only woman working in outside sales in the food industry. I can tell you horror stories of the behavior of management in a company known for its wholesome Mom and Apple Pie image.
Sexual harrassment was the norm and was condoned and even encouraged by top management. Drug addicted whores were given a room in the company suite. Strange times. We have come a long way baby.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Legalise Prostitution?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM

100