Folksingers, the real deal

Subject: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM

I have been, a little, dissappointed to find that most of Mudcat seems to be aimed toward the fans rather than the reality of folk music. Sure, there are many fine performers of traditional music whose work is accessable through recordings and personal appearences.
I have enjoyed their work for decades and I have been privelaged to review their recordings in my monthly column in the Philadelphia Folksong Society's TUNE UP magazine. I have done quite a bit of recording and festival appearences, myself, these past fifty years and I continue to enjoy some small measure of recognition for my efforts but I contend that those performances are, but, a small part of what a real folksinger does. Real folksingers, and there are thousands of us, find our audiences in places that fanzines like SING OUT and, I fear, Mudcat tend to disregard. Most full time folksingers work in schools, from pre-school to university, in churches and synagogues, in libraries, in hospitals and hospices where the traditional music is used to train, to teach, to examine, to dance to, to heal, to pray, to comfort. Many real folksingers work within a particular ethnic setting, maintaining and continuing cultural lines that have stood for centuries. Some folksingers are part of religious communities, some part of political movements, most are employed, often, to provide musical continuity for children.
I do not begrudge the concert and CD fans their enthusiasm for the goings on and foibles of the famed. I would, however, hope that Mudcat might also be employed as a means of communication between those of us, strumming, happily, in the trenches.

                           Mike Miller   [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:17 PM

A very interesting topic.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:28 PM

Hi, Mike - I think maybe you have the wrong impression. Most of the Mudcatters I've met are singers, not fans. I've always thought that Mudcat's orientation was toward people who DO the music, and not toward the audience.
Of course, maybe I've had the wrong impression, too. I thought the Philadelphia Folksong Society was a bunch of people who listened to singer-songwriters, unlike the people from the folk music groups in Washington, San Francisco, Seattle, and the UK that frequent Mudcat (not to forget Canadian and Australian and Irish musicians who come here). I guess I'll have to learn more about the Philadelphia Folksong Society. As an outsider, all I know about is your annual festival, and that seems to be a commercial, singer-songwriter, audience-oriented event.

-Joe Offer, who sings in song circles, libraries, retirement homes, camps, churches, and taverns (and in the shower)-

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:35 PM

There are a lot of folks here at the Mudcat whom I know of who go out to schools, libraries, hospices, etc. that you list. One at least that I know of had a song published in SING OUT. I agree with Joe, I think you've probably got the wrong impression. We are each other's fans, yes, but there are mostly musicians, singers and songwriters, etc. here. if you'd like a list of folks let me now and I'll post a few names for you.

All the best,

kat

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:46 PM

Mudcat is for fans only, eh? And is there some reason that those of us who consider ourselves to be the "designated audience" can't participate in the folk music community? But I expect that you are entirely wrong about the members of our community not being singers; I have at least 20 CDs from Mudcat singers and singer/songwriters, not counting the 5-CD Mudcat set. Of course, I suppose that the likes of Jean Richie (Mudcat member kytrad) don't meet the standards of the Philadelphia Folksong Society.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Forsh
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:47 PM

Folk, I would argue, is beyond what would normally be described as ethnically divided, Folk has an ethnicity of its own?
Also, 'Fans' are on Mudcat. I am a fan, Nowhere near as good as those I enjoy, but I, like so many, like to sing, join in, do my spot, organise, etc. A Fan, A Folkie. A Singer, a perticipant. Of the Folk By The Folk for The Folk I say!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:01 PM

Hello I am a bit confused now.
I get the bit about playing the small venues and maybe the big names pumped up by the industry are maybe a litte detached from the rest of us.(No one aimed at honest)
But if there were no one listening there would be no one to hear and learn and pass on a love for music.
I Write sing and play.
I only play for pleasure and usualy that means freinds and family.
But most of the people who are catters that I have had the honour of meeting,are the same.
We are all audience in some way and mostly the good people of the cat seem to be living the music.
Some play,some sing,some write,some organise bloody fine folk clubs and festivals.
A lot of the ones who you never hear playing can do but they keep it at home.
Many spend hours researching and digging out old tunes and songs that went out of fashion 'cos the "folks" got bored with them and wanted something else.
We all have our own ways of doing and being but we are all folkies and music lovers on here mate.
Same as you.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Hawker
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:15 PM

Hi Mike,
I go into schools leading workshops in traditional singing games, folk song and dance and music. I have run workshops at festivals in songwriting and folk art. I ran a project with pre-school children called Little Folk teaching them about music through simple song, dance and music making. I teach maypole dancing to children and adults and for a number of years ran an after school Folk and Traditions club at our village school. I am also involved in a group called Sound Waves South West who raise money to provide three Music Therapists to those who need their services in North Cornwall and West Devon and witha a long term goal to set up a centre for music terapy. I also go into a centre once a month for adults with learning disabilities and lead them in singing a variety of songs. I am a member of Cornwall Songwriters and with whom I wrote and performed Unsung Heroes - The Lost Gardeners Of Heligan to a variety of audiences. For me the folk process is not just to perform or to watch but enjoy seeing it grow and change with time, and being able to share this with a younger generation, that they may have a pride in their own traditions and identity and to provide a release from the every day rat race, through expression in music song and dance, a sharing experience indeed. I may sound like I am blowing my own trumpet here on reading this back, but those who know me at the cat will know that I would never do such a thing, I just so enjoy what I do I am happy to share and take little or no monetary gain from this sharing. I have no musical qualifications other than Grade 1 and 2 violin and Grade 1 harp. I do have an NVQ level 4 (NVQ is a British qualification, some say it means 'Not Very Qualified' but it stands for 'National Vocational Qualification' and level 4 is equivalent to a degree) in delivering artform development programmes. So there you go I have told you what I do and I sometimes get to perform at festivals too!
Hope I am less of a disappointment! ( I know lots more on here like me too!)
Cheers,
Lucy

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:34 PM

I understand some of the frustration behind this posting.

They say that some of the Weavers found Woody Guthrie rather uncomfortable company - and you can, I think, empathise with him, if you think it through.

Folk music is functional music - designed to help people work and live and cheer up moany kids, and give the old folks a chorus to sing, because the radio has been blasting way all day rap or crap, or punk. Look at Woody's songs and you see such inherent mastery of these situations - and more and poetry. This is REAL folk music. It goes out in the world and connects with real folk.

And yet the younger more attractive kids who could sing complicated harmonies, played guitars that would cost more than a factory worker made in three months, played fancy techniques - they were getting to play better places than Woody and Cisco ever did.

On mudcat you routinely get someone saying several times a day that folk music has to be something that sounds old as Methuselah, can only be appreciated by the initiated who REALLY listen (unlike your average moron), is sung in some arcane weird manner, preferably to a dance rhythm nobody dances any more, using modal scales that can only be found in regular use on the other side of the world.

Look down the lists today and you will find several such threads, and several such people. they want to keep folk music as their exclusive domain.

All I can say is, you're absolutely right Mike Miller. But take heart. these people have only got money and influence and their snobbishness to keep them compnay, Most of them can't even stand to listen to each other.

The music will always belong to the people.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:49 PM

Define "folk music."

Define "The People."

Then this conversation will make some sense.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:59 PM

Sorry if I don't make sense. I thought I was being direct.

I think commercial folk music has lost its way and most of its fans. the remaining ones insist that folk music is some great esoteric thing, which ordinary folks are too dim to grasp.

I don't remember what Orwell said in 1984, (what did he call the lower orders)but Winston Smith wrote - if there is any hope, it is with the clods(or whatever he calls them.)

And thats how I feel about folk music - more comfortable with the clods.

Okay...?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:49 PM

I would like to thank all of you who have replied. the pros and the cons. My meaning is that, of course, a ticket buying, CD ordering audience is needed for a national folk music industry. Without the avid fans to orginise and support them, events, like the Philadelphia Folk Festival, would not be possible and, for those, like myself, who perform in these venues, audiences are valued and appreciated. But, and here's the hub, commercial venues represent, only, a small part of the professional folk market. I don't have to tell you guys that there are more licenced music therapists (with all trad repitoires) than there are full time "folksingers" on the festival and club curcuit. There are thousands of full time Irish musicians, Klezmerim, Polka bands and you-name-it, thousands of school assembly specialists, Gospel artists, tenor banjo toting singalongers, music directors, cantors, square dance callers (those guys can, really, sing), all of them, making very nice livings and continuing the tradition.
I am not, in any way, suggesting that Mudcat should turn its back on the "stars" or should establish a litmus test for what is, and what is not, folk music (Lord knows, we've been down that path before).
I just want to have an exchange with other full time folksingers regarding the larger market in which we ply our trade.
Joe, the Philadelphia Folk Festival is a commercial enterprise which has, often, employed me to run their workshops and campfires so bless their little singer/songwriter lovin' hearts. The funds from the festival provide grants for music therapy (Children's Heart Hospital and Shriners Hospital), The Odyssey of American Folk Music (Which sends traditional music into inner city schools), library programs, The Please Touch Museum series and a Community Service program that is, still, going strong after forty five years. So, although, the festival doesn't meet my lofty "folk" standards, their hearts are in place and I love them, one and all (As I do, all the Mudcatters)

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:49 PM

Kat, I'm sure about two SingOut! published Mudcat songwriters.

Mike, I disagree. 'Most of Mudcat' is, I believed, involved in bitching, complaining or arguing about something, and doesn't really talk about music too much these days. When we do, I don't know that we could be considered 'fans' just because we listen to other people's music and comment on it. Maybe that's not what you mean, though.

...and 'real' folksings don't give a fig whether someone else think's they're real folksingers. They just sing. My opinion, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM

Mike,

I think I get your point, but I might missed it! If you and I were alive 100 years ago, knowing what we know now, we'd be the real deal!
Am I understanding you? Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:21 PM

Various people have been quoted as the source - I have it as Burl Ives ! Question! "How do you know that song you've just sung is a FOLK Song ?" Answer - " I never heard a horse sing it!"
Mike I can see where you're coming from , but you are looking at it from a VERY American Viewpoint . And there are SO many ways of looking at Folk music , each different , depending on Where you are and What in particular turns YOUR switch .
For ME its the wonderful variety of ALL the various bits of this that and the other that combine in this strange genre that we call Folk !
We may be a writer and performer at major events , a support artist (and sometime headliner down the list) , a local 'star' , a floor singer in a club , or just one of the audience , joining in a chorus ,
but we are ALL part of that incredible entity we call Folk .

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:42 PM

I do agree that folk music has become too much of a commodity. How to market yourself, how to make a successful recording, and other business-related 'necessities' of being a professional musician, are all aimed at money-making. The troubadors of days gone by probably didn't have to sell themselves quite so much, and a successful song was one that people liked and/or wanted to learn was not one they had to buy on a recording.

Of course, when you say, "full time folksingers regarding the larger market in which we ply our trade," you're talking about singers who make enough money to be professional.

I sing in living rooms and pubs, in campsites and cars, and I very seldom get up on a stage. I've made less than $100 singing my entire life. I sing because I love to sing. Real folksingers don't require audiences. It's all a matter of how much commercialism you want to allow in your definition. How much money can someone make? How many people in the audience? How many square feet in the venue? When does 'performer' turn into 'star'? Where do you draw the line?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:57 PM

Very rich comments!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:13 AM

Jeri, I draw the line at money. If you (or I) get paid, we are singing professionally, not folksingers. If we sing at the session afterwards, or from the floor, we are folksingers. I consider this applies to everyone, including professionals.
They are 'stars' when I buy their music. It is subjective, as far as I'm concerned.
Rhetorical questions answered while-you-wait, sometimes.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:22 AM

Mike, I'm very glad to hear about your part of the Philadelphia Folk festival. I found the same thing at the Florida Folk Festival when I was visiting there. The main part of the festival was quite ocmmercial - but the workshops were wonderful.

Mind you, we have Mudcatters here who partipate in the San Francisco and Washington (DC) Free Folk Festivals, which are the real deal, not the commercial stuff.

So, you should go to the DC Getaway some year and get to know some Mudcat musicians. I think you'll like us.
-Jeo-

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Bert
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:27 AM

Hi Mike,

I have had the pleasure of hearing you sing at the Philadelphia Folk Song Society, and those times were some of the best that PFSS had to offer.

I think that because of your respected position within the society you were unaware of the problems that lesser members had.

Personally, I left the PFSS because they did not provide ordinary members with the chance to perform. I then joined those Bucks County folks who arranged several opportunities every year for everybody to sing folk music in public.

That's not saying that I didn't enjoy the concerts put on by PFSS because I did, but I only went there in the first place because "I" wanted to sing.

Did you ever listen to (or watch) Mudcat Radio? I think it may have been before your time here, but it was certainly a show that hosted some real folksingers as well as us amateurs. But being amateurs is somewhat what folk music is all about.

When I was in PA, I used to run a monthly folk sing along and Max, Dick Greenhaus and Susan and others visited and sang Folk Songs.

We also had various get togethers at Annamill's, WYSIWIG's, in Toronto and at the Getaway. So Mudcat IS a means of communication among those of us happily strumming in the trenches.

Thanks for posting, it may spur us on to having more get togethers soon, and I look forwared to seeing you and hearing you again.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:25 AM

Mike:
    I think I get your point. However, I always thought "Folk" was all inclusive. i.e. No distinction between performers and audience no matter what the venue. Doesn't the feature performer sit through the whole show with the audience? The audience is also a huge part of any decent show.
Regards
Jim Brannigan (who plays and listens at coffee houses, concerts, ,house concerts, festivals, hotels, lodges, pubs, lounges, clubs, cafes, restaurants, markets, fairs and around the kitchen table)

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:03 AM

I don't know where to begin.
Bert, I get over to Dick and Susan's sing when I can. They live about an hour from me, near Trenton. I am surprised you didn't get much opportunity to perform at PFS sings as they are mostly round robins (that's like an open mike without the mike).
When I talk about full time folksingers, I mean just that. I mean that there are jobs for singers and players of traditional music, lots of jobs. And, unlike folk clubs, these jobs pay more than an honorarium. I get between $135 and $200 for one hour nursing home jobs, $200 to $350 for school assembly programs and libraries and $100 to $200 per hour (the longer the job, the less per hour) at civic fairs and fetes. I get $150 to $250 for a one hour Jewish program and a minimum of $250 when my bluegrass trio does a three hour wedding or private party.
Also, I teach at my home, one day per week (mandolin, tenor banjo, guitar and 5 string)
I am tossing out these numbers to show that there is a living to be made in traditional music. Some of the other local artists make more but I am more than satisfied with my lot.
I see nothing compromising or tainted about charging for my work. I will never be wealthy but, hey, I'm a folksinger.

                   Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:10 AM

So Mike, what is your desire to see here or what is it that you'd want more of? I'm still not sure of what your point is, but then it's sometimes easy for me to miss obvious?

Barry

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:47 AM

I do a lot of free work, I get paid occasionally. The free work is just as rich an experience as the stuff I get paid for, maybe sometimes even more so. I do nursing home jobs absolutely always for free, I'm thrilled to help out and they need the money more than I do.

IMHO Folk Music isn't about how much MONEY a performer can make, it's about how much PLEASURE a performer can take from performing, and make for his/her audience. Of course there will always be those who try to make a living from it, and good luck, but it's the Great Unwashed and Unpaid who are the backbone of Folk Music (or any music, for that matter). And I reckon boasting about how much a person can make from it is pretty tacky (but that's maybe a by-product of my British nationality, it's something that's just 'Not Done' in Stiff-Upper-Lip-Country, and might be viewed as fine by 'Catters across the pond).

I'd hate to see the Mudcat become a 'Professionals-Only' forum, or even a 'Mainly-Professionals' one. It's a place where we all can interact, fans, performers, amateurs, semi-pro, pro, whatever. And most importantly, where Grumpy Old Men can be grumpy. :-) :-)
S:0)

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:12 AM

Pobably the two camps are dependent on each other. In lots of ways if we came to examine the situation. Doubtless the artform needs all the variey that human intelligence can muster.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:34 AM

I belong to a community of folk music enthusiasts, mainly (but not exclusively) in the north of England. We meet regularly, in a variety of venues, and sing mainly (although not exclusively) traditional songs from mainly (but not exclusively) the English speaking world.
At some of the venues we get to hear professional singers and musicians and often get the opportunity to purchase some of their recordings on CD. Many of these professionals are, more or less, part of our community - I suppose the British folk scene has always been like this with professionals being much closer to their audiences than in other fields.
Some of the venues are exclusively 'singarounds' where the attendees are the performers and everyone takes a turn.
Personally, I am very interested in 'old' or 'traditional' songs and such songs make up my own repertoire. Other members of our community are also interested in these old songs and many members, in my opinion, sing them very well indeed.
Unlike 'weelittledrummer' I do not believe that a song needs to be bang-up-to-date and full of contemporary references to make it 'relevant' to an audience. Most, trad. songs are, after all, about universal aspects of the human condition (love and lust, injustice, class conflict etc., etc.). it seems to me that what WLD is proposing is something as mind numbingly banal as soap opera ('Eastenders - The Musical' anyone?).
I suspect that trad. song is not universally popular (was it ever universally popular, and does it need to be? Discuss!) not because of the subject matter but because recent generations have been conditioned to be passive consumers of 'post-music noise' and there's no hope for them!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:25 AM

I do not propose that Mudcat become a pro only forum, an exclusively trad site or that any of its factions be silenced, censored or limited. I, merely, suggest that, as most professional folksinging jobs are in the markets that I have mentioned (as well as many I didn't), those of us, who make our living from folk music, should be using this wonderful forum to communicate, share, compare and reccomend. I know that nursing homes, elementary schools, summer camps and local fairs aren't sexy and won't get you to Nashville, but that's where the real jobs live and every real professional knows that. It is damn well about time for us to help one another with advise, direction and reccomendation. I think we owe it to the tradition.
I have never been reluctant to reccomend other folksingers for jobs. That is one way I can repay the community that has supported me for close to fifty years. I have included my e-mail address for pros who wish to exchange ideas and such, directly.

                           Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

"a national folk music industry."

*phew* -wringing wet from laughter-

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:05 PM

Threads like this make me suspect that folk music in some respects thrives better in the USA than in the UK.

Has anyone in the UK ever known an old folks' home organise folk music for the inmates, or be able to get money from the local authority to pay for such things?

What about local libraries? Surely the response would be "Shhhh!".

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: synbyn
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:14 PM

Richard, there are (have been) old peoples' homes who do just that- and they do pay expenses, i believe, though I guess not enough to keep a pro working. Mummers plays etc are also in demand- I don't know the impact of new licensing laws upon such performances. Certainly they can be justified in terms of inmates welfare (although who can forget Victoria Woods' duo thrumming Streets Of London on nylon strung guitars to captive audiences?)Ah...pay... I think it must be part of the 'volunteer' sector so beloved of our leaders...

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Bert
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

I used to go to the Round Robins, Mike. The trouble with them was that they were not organised.

On one occasion the women, with their incessant chatter, at the refreshment table in the next room completely drowned out the singers.

The last three I went to, were completely taken over by the same handful of "guitar hogs" who drew their chairs into a tight circle and didn't give anyone else the chance to sing. Well I should say the last two and a half because I walked out of the last one and never went back to PFSS.

I hope that things have changed for the better since then.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:56 PM

Hi Strollin
I understand your logic in playing as many old folkies homes as possible.
You will soon be needing one and is a good idea to seek out the best while you are still mobile!
LOL
I am sure a visit from you and you rgolden tonsils has brightened up many an inmates day
Keep up the good work mate.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:22 PM

They let me out for the day today Tim, on condition that I wear two pairs of incontinence pants. LOL!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

I've played both in retirement homes and in libraries (parks, schools, reenactments, weddings, dances, art fairs, etc.). It's pretty weird playing in libraries but we don't do it much--we sometimes get called in for holidays or special occasions. We're not professional musicians, though, so we generally either don't get paid or don't get paid much (or, if we're playing for little old ladies, we get paid in cookies).

It has seemed to me that virtually everyone on here is a musician, but please don't push to make it a professionals' forum--those of us who are not professionals take it no less seriously and don't want to be stigmatized just because we have to do something else to feed ourselves. I'm not saying that there isn't a need for a professionals' forum (I wouldn't know since I'm not a pro), and I don't have a problem with people posting professional questions as threads, but I would not like to see Mudcat turned over to that purpose.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 03:38 PM

Bit of a cop out. The universality clause. Of course its true, but when you look back what footprints has our generation left in the sand of folksong. Nothing much that tells about the sort of life I've led, or most of the people round me.

And it comes down in the end to that sort of spiritual degeneracy that feels like our generation of English folksingers are in the Edinburgh Wool Shop of life, rather than walking the pavements of our cities where most of us live - in fact its the only sort of stuff that gets on folk radio.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: nutty
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

Mike ... I can't believe that you have beeen visiting this site for very long to have such a narrow view of Mudcat and Mudcatters.

The vast majority of Mudcatters are not just fans but disciples. Totally committed to carrying on the folk tradition in any way possible.

As I am from the UK I have to admit to not having heard of you but then I doubt if you would have heard of me - YET- you presume to comment on my (as a mudcatter) involvement in Folk Music.

I sang my first song in public 40 years ago and have never lost my enthusiasm for participating. During that time I have been involved in organising (and participating in) folk festivals and clubs. I've run singers weekends and performed as one fourth of an acapella group and always considered myself privileged to be meeting such wonderfully dedicated people, many of whom are now Mudcatters.

These are the people who have kept folk alive and will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Bert
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:52 PM

Nutty, Mike has been around Mudcat for quite a while. I suspect that he is just trying to encourage us to get out and do more.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:04 PM

Chill out, cher Nutty, I would not presume to identify you or your mode of livelihood or your commitment to traditional music. For all I know, you are Bert Lloyd, Seamus Ennis and Cyril Tawney rolled up into one. (Actually, Cyril was all three in one body). I, surely do not mean to offend you or anyone else. I am seeking a community of professional folksingers for purpose of consultation, co-operation and fellowship based on mutual business interests. If you are such an individual, we should talk. If you are not, more power to you and I am sure that we share many interests which we will discuss on other threads.
My concern was that there seemed to be so few full time pros, posting on this forum. I knew that there must be quite a few out there but I have seen so few threads that addressed our concerns, so I started one myself. I lived in Ireland for two years, back in the late 60's, and worked at a number of folk clubs in and around Dublin and I did a Scottish tour (booked by folk DJ, Artur Argo). I did not work at nursing homes, schools, etc. there, so I can not comment on that area of venue. In fact, at that time, I hadn't even thought about those kinds of jobs until I came back to the states and hooked up with a juggling troupe, as a writer, and started noticing the kind of gigs they were getting. Once I started building a local reputation, I said farewell to the road and hello to steady employment I still keep in touch with the national acts by doing a few festivals, every year, and by encouraging new artists by reviewing independantly produced CDs in my column in TUNE UP magazine. I have been of some help to a number of Mudcatters, publicising their recordings. It is my pleasure to do so.

                      Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:32 PM

So, WLD, I'm a 'spiritual degenerate', am I, just because I like old songs? So, tell me, where are the alternative contemporary and 'relevant' songs that I should be singing instead? True there do seem to be quite a few people writing songs these days, but they don't inspire me to perform them like the old songs do (the new songs range from excellent to dire - but I am not moved to sing even the best of them).

For me, singing songs is about more than 'contemporary relevance'. it's about continuity with the past, it's about images and ideas which appeal to my imagination, it's about the sheer beauty of the old songs and, I insist, that appealing to the universalities in these songs is most definitely NOT a cop out!
Finally, more and more these days, singing old songs is, for me, an act of f..cking rebellion - against the banality of contemporary life, against the slick stupidity of much popular culture, and against fads, trends and fashions of all kinds. I like trad. songs because they are songs for adults and not infantilised crap for disaffected and spoiled adolescents!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:21 PM

Mr. Miller, I am far from a "real folksinger," even in my own mind. However, it would seem that there are very few people out there that fit your definition. By saying that "real folksingers find our audiences in places that fanzines like SING OUT and, I fear, Mudcat tend to disregard. Most full time folksingers work in schools, from pre-school to university, in churches and synagogues, in libraries, in hospitals and hospices where the traditional music is used to train, to teach, to examine, to dance to, to heal, to pray, to comfort." That seems to exclude Mudcatters like Seamus Kennedy, who does concerts and pub performances for a living, (Alaska) Mike Campbell, who is a singer/songwriter with a day job and Art Thieme, Ron Olesko, Jerry Rasmussen and many others. Saying that you want to consult with full time pros, and then defining that term so rigidly, seems more than a bit elitist. Why not just say that you want to discuss issues of mutual interest with people who mostly gig at schools, nursing homes and so forth, and who try to do this as their primary occupation? Was it really your intention to start off by getting peoples' backs up?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:50 PM

Since when do you have to be a professional to be a "real folk musician (or singer)"? I AM a real folk artist, as far as I can tell, but I've never been and probably never will be a professional. Is there something British here that I'm missing? U.S. folk musicians seem to have enough other networking opportunities not to need Mudcat much for that.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:53 PM

Amen. maybe a proud full-time gigger is by definition inarticulate at written communication? no, we have some of those here, and they don't create threads whose main effect is to make people feel like shrubs.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Effsee
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:40 PM

Mike..."(booked by folk DJ, Artur Argo)"...Arthur Argo was a BBC producer for BBC Radio Scotland, just a wee bit more than a DJ!
From someone who has been involved in many roles in folk music for the best part of 40 years, I think you want to go and rethink your original post.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:15 AM

Once again, I apologise if I have offended anyone. That was never my intent. Seamus Kennedy is, surely, a full time professional folksinger, a friend of mine and one of the few full time touring folk performers (although, I suspect he goes on the road just to get out of Baltimore). He has my respect and awe, as do others in his situation. A life of long trips and one night stands requires more gumption than I have, God knows. He, and other touring folk pros, of my aquaintence, receive and deserve recognition. I do not begrudge them a hoorah or a Mudcat thread. But, there are few of them and many of us. We do not need plaudits from Mudcatters. We must be satisfied with singing for our suppers and getting to sleep in our own beds.
As an former wandering minstral, I am probably aquainted with more touring pros than my critics are and I can tell you that being on the road again has turned many a Willie Nelson into a Willie Loman.
Last year, I did five clubs in four days on a whirlwind Minnesota trip, just to remind myself why I do schools, seniors and hayrides.
In my twenties, it was an adventure. In my sixties, it is a bit of a pain in the ass. The more I think about it, Seamus, next time, I'll buy the beer.

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:33 AM

Mike, these ARE the trenches!!!

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Meg
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:59 AM

Tough room, here, Mike! Touchy bunch. And I admit, I liked the drift of your post. But you lost me at the received notion of "real folksingers".

Real? Compared to what? Where's the line? Are there "reality" standards for people who record? It's ok to get paid, I guess, but what if you happen to do a big festival and get paid well, and no social work is involved? What if you are white and not ethnically affiliated, and don't want to wear an ersatz multiculti hat? What if you're apolitical, or not theistically inclined, or simply eschew earnest musical didacticism, but still, bless your heart, sing folk songs? Real or not-real? What if you're a social worker who uses folk music in her work, doesn't consider her workplace a "trench" and finds most "folksingers" full of themselves?

Out here in SF, I sometimes overhear Folk Music Society types who fuss about who's "real" and who's not "real". Ain't gonna brag about my musical social work, because I consider it part of being a whole person, not a "real folksinger".   

I mean nothing personal, you sound like a good guy. But I'm not rolling too smooth with the terms.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:04 AM

No its not personal judgement Shimrod. Its an aesthetic one.

Where our music has got to in its trajectory is a bit like where English literature got to at the end of the 19th century.

Even the best writers in English found they could only write about the past - think of Stevenson writing about pirates and Jacobites, Wilde writing poems like Requiescat that could been written a century earlier - indeed tried to sound like that; Lionel Johnson, the New Georgians, Rupert Brooke...........

It needs TS Eliot to come along, kick it all up the arse and get it into the 21st century - well the 20th would be a start....!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:21 AM

WLD,

OK, no offense taken (not that I consider you to be a contributor who would be deliberately offensive, anyway - robust in your arguments, perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with that!).

Actually, I'm intrigued by your ideas - but I don't have a really clear idea about what you are proposing (often reads like 'babies and bathwater' stuff - but perhaps not).

For the record, my view is that it is modern popular culture which is 'spiritually degenerate' and it is trad. song which provides me with a viable alternative (as well as a personal artistic outlet and a fine community to belong to). It is also an article of faith with me that the past is important and the wholesale rejection of the past, which appears to be a defining characteristic of contemporary culture, is the real reason why that culture is 'spiritually degenerate' in the first place!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM

A pretty narrow view...

I'd neither class myself as (primarily) a fan. I'm not performer and rarely sing or consider calling myself a folksinger, although I can sing if I want to. I still feel I very much belong in folk music.

Each to thier own but to me, the "real deal" is in participation with others who sing or play. Most of mine is in sessions.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:05 PM

I have rechecked my posts and I find that I did, in fact, say "real folksingers" when I should have said "real professional folksingers".
Real folksingers are all of us, kids at a birthday party, students at a football rally, parishiners at prayer, fans at the start of a baseball game (In Chicago, in the seventh inning stretch, too), campers at a campfire, rugby clubs relaxing, boy scouts, girl scouts (The girls are the only ones who know all the words to "The Ash Grove"), children of all ages. I have never met a non folksinger.
I hope this clears things up.
Now, may I return to topic?

                      Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:26 PM

Mike, I think I understand what you want, but I don't think Mudcat is the right forum. Mudcat is literally global, and involves people at all levels of involvement in the music. What you seem to want is somewhere that full-time professional musicians, who aren't necessarily well-known but who earn their living by performing the music, can support one another.

In the UK we have Britfolk, which describes itself as "a self-help organisation for UK-based professional folk performers". I'm not a member myself, as I don't earn a significant proportion of my income from music and so am not eligible. But perhaps if you were to contact them they may be able to give some advice on how to establish something similar. Their website is at http://www.britfolk.co.uk/

In your original post, you seem to be complaining that Mudcat is all about the stars, and that the "real deal", bread-and-butter musicians are somehow ignored. But if you are performing mainly for private or semi-private functions, rather than public concerts, then you are not going to become well-known outide that circuit, even in your local area. Mudcatters are from all around the world, and the musicians they discuss on here are inevitably those with the highest profiles. The work you are doing may be very good and very worthwhile, but it's not going to interest me, here in the UK, compared with discussions of performers whose work I'm familiar with will interest me. This is nothing personal, it's not about your music, it's simply geography.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:38 PM

Howard, my helpful friend. Allow me to, once again, say that I do not object to any of the various threads on Mudcat. Mudcat is, as you say, an international forum but, if there can be threads relating to a particular club or tour, if there can be threads about songs or topics that appeal to just a few, if there can be postings replying to just one Mudcatter, why, the hell, shouldn't there be topics that affect more folksingers than you might think? I am glad that the UK has an orginization and a website for these folks. I shall, indeed, contact them. However, as has been written on this very thread, the situations are not exactly the same on this side of the Atlantic.
My purpose, in creating this thread was to reach other professionals and those who who like to sing professionally. I thought that Mudcat would be a good avenue for finding them. All I seem to have done is incur the wrath of those who are not the target of my search. I shall look elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:59 PM

Well to be honest, I think Mike HAS hit upon a malaise, which is holing the folk song movement below the waterline. Whichever country you live in.

Its a terrific contradiction if you are playing the music of the people, and yet the only music that gets critical attention or airplay is produced by 'stars'. Mike (as I read his original post) is a committed musician - he turns up at this forum expecting debate about the creative process, and he thinks we're all a it 'starstruck'.

I think you're probably right, Mike.

Shimrod's point - what am I proposing. I'm not sure myself, just voicing a vague discontent with the way things are going, or rather the way they're not going.

All I can say is. You know that song Common People by Pulp. Its the best song about being a reasonably intelligent nobody in England today, what sociologists called 'anomie' - society's a machine and its turning us all into nuts. the English folksong movement should be producing songs like that.....instead we've got the same old, same old ....songs about blacksmiths, fishermen fighting the bitter swell, poachers........its all about as exciting and relevant as a corner of the Edinburgh Wool Shop. You could contain the present English folk movement onto half a shelf and call it rural crafts.

To paraphrase Waylon Jennings, Are you sure Ewan done it this way?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Effsee
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:22 PM

WLD, surely you're not writing off all the modern day song writers ( yourself included) as irrelevant? Harvey Andrews, Eric Bogle et al?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 07:28 AM

Of course not, particularly not Harvey and Eric Bogle. And I've spent hours singing both their songs and in Eric's case, his Green Fields of France has helped pay the bills when I was doing the Irish theme pub circuit.

Everybody's creative effort is to be cherished. I don't much care for threads where they say I think we could learn a thing or two from Adolph(sic) Hitler. but otherwise......

I just feel somehow the folksong movement has never truly connected with anybody except those on the fringes of society. In the way that earlier folksong writers did seemingly effortlessly - somehow they wrote about the joys and sorrows of their lives.

You know how Ian Campbell wrote the old man's song about the old boy waiting to die. Maybe its time for the middle aged man's song, or the young man's song, or the young woman's song. Those of us living in the midst of life - the teachers, checkout people at supermarkets, call centres, clerks, nurses, car park attendants, security guards.......anybody except jolly blacksmiths and the like, who have been well catered for over the last three or four centuries.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: ejsant
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:09 AM

Hey Mike,

I hope my getting into the fray isn't too late. I too play the nursing home and adult care facility circuit, if indeed it is a circuit as these things are. I also play in pubs, libraries, museums, private parties, and the like. We are moving to the Easton area, truth be told we're not jumping the river. I would welcome your insight into the Bucks County venues as well as tips to gain more work.

I'm staying out of the rest of this debate as I learned a long time ago that opinions are like noses and asses, we all have one and for the most part they all work just fine for ourselves.

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Fidjit
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:11 AM

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Fidgit
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:22 AM

Ahh that's what happens when you press the return button at the wrong time.

Richard Bridge wrote : Shhhh!

I got a gig in Norway to play at some old peoples homes for two weeks(Had 4 weeks, but gave 2 to a mate) Three OAP homes in a day every week day. Mostly to sing at lunch time. Yeah you try that. Clocked up about 200km each day. Got paid for the mileage as well as the gig. Nice little earner, that. Well Richard, it happens over here in Scandinavia. Trouble is that the residents of OAP homes in Norway were mostly demeted. and very sleepy at lunch time. Trying to get them to sing along to English Folk Songs. Hmmm. Tough audience. There was one that wanted to dance with me whilst I was playing a medly on the melodeon.
Interesting.
One resident brought out his saw and played along with me on that.

Chas

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: mandotim
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:23 AM

Hi WLD! Some good stuff here. A suggestion about 'connectedness'; I was blown away recently by a brilliant example of a modern man in middle age, singing passionately about the ordinary things of our time, not some idealised byegone age. I refer, of course to Mudcat's own George Papavgeris. There are others like him, but he comes closest to my idea of a 'folksinger' who is rooted in the real, the here and now.
Hope this good discussion keeps going.
Tim

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Grab
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:47 AM

The troubadors of days gone by probably didn't have to sell themselves quite so much, and a successful song was one that people liked and/or wanted to learn was not one they had to buy on a recording.

Re "selling themselves", how else did they get money? They had to stand on a street corner and get people to listen by any means necessary. If there was someone else down the block playing too, they had to be able to blow him away if they wanted to win the contest for people's money. If that isn't selling yourself, I don't know what is!

Re focussing on the stars, I'm sure a survey of Mudcat members who play gigs would find that the vast majority of them are supporting their music with full-time jobs doing something else. Of those who don't have full-time jobs, the majority of *them* will be retired.

Still, as regards discussion of songs, you've got three choices.

* Firstly, you can ask questions about old songs, as people often do on Mudcat. These are old, and the answers will almost always be out there. Since the songs are old, most of the permutations of ways of playing them have already been explored. There's masses of quality songs available, but there's rarely any new angle to be added. They're still open for playing, and a good player can still perform them well and touch their audience, but they're not adding to the base of folk music available.
* Or the other option is to look at new music - and the only new music that everyone is likely to have heard is the stuff that's widely available and played on the various folk radio shows. Chances are that you can reinterpret this and do it different ways and add to the variety of the folk experience.
* Or thirdly, you can write new music yourself which is relevant to you and your experiences.

This is where I differ from Shimrod. Shimrod says it's an "article of faith" for him that modern culture is "spiritually degenerate". Faith is not subject to persuasion, so I won't try. All I'll say is to quote a bloke off the radio, who should know because he was 100: "If there's a golden age, it's in the future, not the past." And that's my article of faith (which is based on substantial evidence).

Incidentally, modern life may seem banal because we're used to it. I can guarantee that a Victorian transported to today would think this was the epitome of wonder and adventure. Travel a thousand miles in two hours! Talk instantly to anyone anywhere in the world! Doctors who can cure 90+% of all diseases with incredible medicines and machines! And vice versa, if any of us was transported to the life of a Victorian labourer or soldier, I seriously doubt we'd still think the past was quite the bucolic paradise with buxom milkmaids, singing ploughboys and gallant captains. "Nasty, brutish and short" was the summary of pre-industrial life by someone who was there and knew what he was talking about.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

Ed, I would be glad to tell you about the folk market in Bucks County and offer ideas for establishing yourself in that market. It is, precisely, that co-operation that I hoped to establish with this thread (before it became a battleground for the forces of trad vs modernists and just another "what is folk?" cry of the milormore bird). You can contact me at [e-mail]
So can anyone else who wants to discuss the business side of folk music.

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:54 AM

"I just feel somehow the folksong movement has never truly connected with anybody except those on the fringes of society. In the way that earlier folksong writers did seemingly effortlessly - somehow they wrote about the joys and sorrows of their lives."

I thought that, with the possible exception of two sort of extreme periods in the 1930's and late 1950's-early 1960's, this had pretty much always been the case. How popular has folk music ever been, at least in the decades since there have been mass-produced alternatives?

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:01 AM

The radio prog. in a current thread discusses this.
Worth a listen.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:52 AM

This is a community.   There is not need to box this group as to whether a person is a "fan" or a "participant".   

A community is made up of a diverse group. Look at your own neighborhood. You probably have a neighbor that is always involved in organizing something. You have the gossip who likes to talk about the other neighbors. You have the "crazy lady" who lives alone with her 29 cats and never speaks to anyone.   You have the young kids on the corner starting a family. You have the grumpy old man who yells at kids to stay off his lawn. There is the family that is always yelling at each other.   One family loves to have parties and keeps their lights on at all hours of the night.

That is what we are in the so-called "folk" community. I find it rather self-important to label anyone as a "real" folksinger. I think it is wrong to catagorize the people who visit Mudcat as either fans or participants. We are all part of the community and operate in different ways. You can either put out the welcome mat to invite everyone in or put up the sign saying "no solicitors".

Often you will hear people gripe about contemporary singer-songwriters as being navelgazers. However, threads like this seem to point out that they are not the only ones who like to drone on about the state of things.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

Mike, you wrote "My purpose, in creating this thread was to reach other professionals and those who who like to sing professionally."

I have read and re-read your original post, and I still cannot read it as anything other than a whinge that the work that you, and apparently many others, do is not recognised or discussed on Mudcat. Furthermore, by appearing to claim that only professional folksingers who work in this area are "the real deal" you have succeeded in alienating many who believe that their involvement in folk music, whether as performer or listener, is just as valid.

You are quite right, many of the posts on Mudcat are quite specific and of only limited or local interest to many. And you are also right that Mudcat could be used as a way for professionals to communicate and support one another. So why don't you start a thread with a title that clearly states what you want to achieve, rather than one with a title that appears disparaging, and a largely negative OP? Then you may get a more positive response than this thread has generated.

Good luck

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:22 PM

well the trad v modernist whinge - probably my fault. Its a songwriters things. you write something and then wonder if anybody else will be interested in singing it.

consider it done.

where exactly would you like the conversation to start?

Try and be specific, about the direction you would like it to take. Where and what and how you gig is for something for everybody to sort out individually. Most of us play, or have played at least semi professionally. And the amateur ones seem to knowe far more about guitars and the sources for songs that we the pros and ex-pros(like myself) do. If we can help, I am sure we will.

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM

I have appologised for the last time. If anyone is still hazy about my reason for starting this thread, there is nothing I can do to make them feel better without the aid of leeches. I have been contacted by one singer who is moving into my area and I will be sharing contacts and advice with him, as I will with any others who want whatever help I can offer. I am old enough to, no longer, enjoy conflict as recreation but I am, also, old enough to know that I should be passing along the information and methods that have sustained me and my career. So, outside of the occasional marital spat, I leave the field to the young stags whose antlers are, as yet, undulled.
Again, I am reachable, directly, for those who wish to discuss the nitty-gritty business of folk. I thank you for your attention and wish you well.

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 07:03 PM

Mike - I think you should start a discussion about the subject and not worry about all the comments. You apologized and we accept it, but this discussion will go on. I would hope that you will create a new discussion that will be just as interesting.

Don't take anything personally on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Folksingers, the real deal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:01 PM

Is this the ten minute argument?