BS: Adolf Hitler

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:02 PM

Modern Myth - WMD in Iraq ....

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:54 PM

The truth was probably about halfway between the existing extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:45 PM

I'm not sure about that debunking. Certainly the stories were built up in the press - well you can always believe what you read in the press!! But later historical research claims that at least some of the stories were true, and the German excuse for 6,500 civilian deaths was made up.

click 'ere

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:30 PM

There are always plenty of good people under a bad government. Bad governments are quite adept at getting good people to serve them. In any case, once a government is in command of a nation most of the people in that nation will obey orders and perform military duty as required.

If the story about Charlie Brown and Franz Steigler is true, it's one of the great stories to remember. Similar things, similar acts of chivalry, happened in many places. They did not often happen on the Eastern Front, however.

It is unfortunate that the earlier debunking of WWI stories about German atrocities defused people's awareness of what the Nazis were up to. The Nazis were an incomparably more dangerous and irresponsible government than the Kaiser's Germany was in WWI.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:51 PM

Leni Riefenstahl apparently was one of those artists who got tangled up with the Nazis without really understanding what they were all about. There is a photograph of her, taken by a young soldier who was an admirer, that is one of the most disturbing WWII photos I've seen ... She went along with a military "investigative" detail to the Polish-German border, to a village in which a couple of German soldiers had been murdered. When they reached the village - a Jewish village, I believe - the soldiers rounded up all the local men, then began slaughtering them. Leni Riefenstahl was screaming at them to stop when her admirer took the photo - the expression of horror on her face is chilling ...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:34 PM

That pic is probably one of the ones on this page:
http://blogs.aviation.ca/index.php/steve.php/2006/w50/
...

The implication on that page is that none of the planes in the pics are the actual one in the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM

"a sliver over 50% of a public to successfully endorse a government policy"

You don't need anywhere near that. In fact Hitler came to power on the basis of 37% of the vote, and a flawed electoral system. That's the kind of percentage that people like that can get in lots of elections today, and it can be enough.

In 1928 the Nazis got 3%; by 1930m it was 17%, and by 1932 it was the 37% that did the trick.

Pretty frightening, when you think of it. We think we're safe...

Here's a YouTube clip of Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:30 PM

Interesting .... I wonder if that B-17 is the famous picture that has been around for years .... literally shot up beyond disbelieve making one wonder how that the plane could have made it back.

Quite a few stories around that could be credible ... I mean humans are humans ... all the bad and all the good.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

Speaking of WWII myths, there's a story doing the e-mail rounds right now that sounds "mythic" but actually seems to be true - at least, it can be traced to an identifiable source in the form of a real person(http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/35/a2674235.shtml). It is one of those feel-good war stories, which we're about due for:

This story was submitted to the site by Chris Chandler of the 8th Air Force Historical SocietyAbout links. He has a video and pictures of the event, and can be contacted on 01234 211026 or at [e-mail].

Charlie Brown's story
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton, England. His B-17 was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to Kimbolton.

After flying over an enemy airfield, a pilot called Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere.

Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17 and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.

Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England. He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.

When Franz landed he told the c/o that the plane had been shot down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.

More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found. He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.

They met in the USA at a 379th Bomber Group reunion, together with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns.

['WW2 People's War is an online archive of wartime memories contributed by members of the public and gathered by the BBC. The archive can be found at bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar'].

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 03:59 PM

The truth was known before 1944 and 1945. It was held back from the 'broadcast news' ... it should not have been a surprise.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 03:52 PM

Little Hawk somewhere above was challenging the still wildly held view that the Germans were responsible for many attrocities in World War 1. It's my understanding that after that War many of these "attrocities" were proven to be Allied propaganda, and that the actual attrocities were pretty evenly divided between the waring parties.

Unfortunately, the debunking reports made it more difficult for people outside Germany in the 1930's to believe the early contemporary reports of assassinations, discrimination, mass expulsions and imprisonment that was actually happening. There was real surprise and shock among the general population when the actual pictures of concentration camp victims were shown in 1944-45.

Charley Noble, whose father was unfortunately named "Adolph" and was viewed with some alarm by his neighbors in our small Maine town during World War 2

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:47 PM

Myths were very common in that war. Here are some other examples:

Malta was supposedly defended in the air at one point by only three rather antiquated British Gladiator biplanes named "Faith, Hope, and Charity", and they alone fought off the hordes of German and Italian aircraft. Totally untrue! But everyone on the Allied side believed it during the war, and many still do to this day. It was a story popularized by the British press to raise morale.

Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk by Japanese aircraft while sitting helplessly at the docks in Singapore. This was told to me by my friend Joe, who had served in Malta, and he believed it. That's what he was told at the time. Untrue! They were sunk while manuevering freely at sea under their full capability. And very quickly and handily too. This was not the story British people wanted to hear, so they changed it.

Adolf Galland was so impressed by British Spitfires as being much superior to German Me 109's that he sarcastically asked ReicshMarshall Goering to give him a squadron of Spitfires when Goering inquired as to what the German fighter squadrons needed to win the Battle of Britain. Not exactly right. Galland and his men loved the Me 109 and considered it the best fighter in the air. They also fully respected the Spitfire as a competitive and worthy opponent, but they did not consider it superior to the 109. The fact is, those planes were just about perfectly evenly matched in 1940-42.

The Italian army always ran away or surrendered. Not true. The Italians often fought very bravely. They were hampered by inadequate equipment...tanks that were poorly armoured and vulnerable, planes that were mostly underarmed and underpowered, and a navy that lacked radar, night fighting capability, and air cover. Given those inadequacies in modern equipment, they were doomed to defeat on the battlefield no matter how brave they were, and this was responsible for badly damaging their morale soon enough...as it would have damaged anyone's morale.

Most of these myths were bent in one direction or another to push a certain propaganda line. That's what happens in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:41 AM

"It is a beautiful and symbolic story, but it is not true. The myth about the King wearing the star of David ... "

Ah, well ... I had a twinge of uneasiness when I wrote the words "well-known" ...

I wonder what other myths my mother told me?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:42 AM

Wencks army while crossing the Elbe came under fire from the Soviets, they fired back in return and the US forces ignored the German defence of their retreating army,

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:34 AM

Wolfgang I am surprised to have to explain to you, General Wenck crossed the Elbe to surrender the remainder of his 9th and 12th Armies, Wenck was ordered to Berlin by Hitler to defend the city but wisely crossed the partially bombed bridge on the river Elbe and surrendered to US General Moore.

Number 6 would you recommend books by those German prisoners of the Soviets, English translations, or does anyone else have any information.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:59 AM

Von Braun, but not et al.
Some of the rocket scientists went East.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:40 AM

100 !!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:36 AM

Of course Werner von Braun et al got away with surrendering to the USA...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:18 AM

one General ... proceeded to surrender his troops to the US Command, at that time other Generals could have also surrendered to the US Command, but decided to continue with the hopeless task of defending the city. (Ard Mhacha)

Could they? The US command did accept surrendering only from troops that had fought at the Western front. German troops from the Eastern front had to surrender to the Red Army.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:49 AM

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Vee haf vays uf deeling mit your kind"? Well, they did. To keep the lid from boiling off the pot the Nazis would publicly back down or seem to aquiesce. In reality they would set another, more subtle organization to work on the problem that wouldn't generate as much public outcry or at least not as much as they cared to handle at the moment. Everyone knew this and still lived in fear. Read "The Hiding Place" re Corrie Tenboom (not sure of the spelling). If there was resistence in villages in France the whole community were sometimes slaughtered to serve notice to others who might want to resist.

Hitler's real genius was in his ability to consolidate power and lead the cheering section. The rest was plain old carrot and stick tactics and they worked just fine. They still do. The shakiest ground he trod was that with his high command. There he played the "Who's watching who?" game to a fare-thee-well as his life depended on it. Loyalties and suspicions. Keep everyone watching everybody else except the man behind the curtain.

Hitler needed to win the war first and then he would be free to deal with little problems like the King of Denmark in his own time. I don't need to recap the history of where he erred strategically or how his growing insanity betrayed him but until then he really had it going. As far as per centages of support goes, you don't really need that much. How many of you have owned voting stock in a company? The owners of just a few percent usually control the whole shooting match. Five or ten percent is a huge advatage and it is seldom challenged. When it is, a proxy fight ensues and most of the sheep, er, I mean shareholders just sign the proxies thinking "Well, they've made money for me in the past" or "they're doing a good job" or "I only have one or two votes". It sounds like modern day politics to me! Much can be done with little as many CEO's, politicians and Hitler know/knew. So while maybe not EVERYONE thought Adolf was the Bee's Knees THEY WENT ALONG! And THAT is all it takes. Welcome to the greasy slide to Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:23 AM

I looked it up. Apparently it's a popular and oft-repeated legend among the Danes. It is not literally true, but it is symbolic of Danish resistance. A quote from the article:

"Although the Danes did undertake heroic efforts to shelter their Jews and help them escape from the Nazis, there is no real-life example of the actions described by this legend. Danish citizens never wore the yellow badge, nor did King Christian ever threaten to don it himself. In fact, Danish Jews never wore the yellow badge either, nor did German officials ever issue an order requiring Danish Jews to display it.

But the Danes engaged in symbolic gestures of defiance against their occupiers, such as wearing four coins tied together with red and white ribbons in their buttonholes. Red and white are the Danish colors, and four coins totalling nine ore represented the date of the occupation, April 9.

In the book Queen in Denmark by Anne Wolden-Ræthinge the Danish Queen Margrethe II says about the legend:"It is a beautiful and symbolic story, but it is not true. The myth about the King wearing the star of David ... I can imagine that this could have originated from a typical remark by a Copenhagen errand boy on his bicycle: 'If they try to enforce the yellow star here, the King will be the first to wear it!' To me, the truth is an even greater honor for our country than the myth."


Here's a link to the rest:

Danish Resistance to Nazis

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:10 AM

If so, it's a powerful testament to the courage and character of the Danish king. The people in the Nazi upper echelons tended to be rather impressed by royalty, I think, so his taking of such a stand could have had considerable effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:22 AM

FWIW, when I was a kid, my mother told about me the Danish king wearing a yellow Star of David in sympathy with the Jews; don't remember her saying anything about the rest of the gentile populace wearing them.

Not that she had been in Denmark or anything; it just seemed to be one of those things that was "well-known" among those who lived through those war years.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:50 PM

It would be interesting to hear anymore regarding that LH.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:42 PM

I'm not sure about it, Bill, but I did read that account at one point. We'll see if anyone can turn up something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,odidnafndnn
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:26 PM

"From sabotage" is explained to mean a Stinger missile at other sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:26 PM

I've heard they were just as ruthless in hunting down Jews and and severely punishing anyone who harboured them in Denmark... just like any of the occupied countries.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,odidnafndnn
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:22 PM

Very off-topic, but we have a possible recent example of the military standing up to another butcher. Old article leading up to an old election, but many believe these men WERE on their way to arrest Clinton:

On April 17th, 1995, I received a telephone call from my husband, Gunther Russbacher. He said, "The war has begun!"

I asked him what he meant. He said a Learjet had just crashed in Alabama. On board were 17 Admirals and Generals. They were on their way to arrest Bill Clinton.

All the military men were killed.

That same day, Sherman Skolnick was told the same thing by one of his sources.

The same day, Oswald LeWinter talked to a reporter for a major New York newspaper. LeWinter told the reporter the same thing -- and it was published -- April 19, 1995.

No one paid any attention to the story because in the early morning of April 19, 1995, the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City blew up....

PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT ON THE C-21 PLANE CRASH--April 18, 1995-- President Clinton stated today that he and Mrs. Clinton were "very saddened" to learn of the crash of an Air Force C-21 aircraft near Alexander City, Alabama last night, with the loss of eight lives. "Our hearts and our prayers go out to the families and friends of those who were killed," he said....

WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- Eight people were killed when an Air Force C-21 Learjet crashed into a wooded area near Alexander City, Ala., about 6:30 p.m. CST April 17.

The aircraft, assigned to the 332nd Airlift Flight, Randolph AFB, Texas, was flying from Andrews AFB, Md., to Randolph, but was diverting to Alexander City Airport, Ala. -- 35 miles northeast of Maxwell AFB, Ala. -- after experiencing an in-flight emergency....

http://www.rense.com/general3/warbegun.htm

...In the spring of 1995, a small group of highly patriotic flag officers were plotting to arrest their Commander-in-Chief Clinton for giving military secrets to the Red Chinese, a sworn enemy of the U.S.; an arrest provided for and authorized under the military code. As titular head of both the U.S. civilian and military Establishment, Clinton, on the other hand, could have arrested the 24 Admirals and Generals for mutiny. If they were not assassinated, they intended to defend themselves with proof, such as Clinton giving, to the head of the Red Chinese Secret Police, in the White Houuse and elsewhere, U.S. financial, industrial, and MILITARY secrets. Giving aid and comfort to a sworn enemy of the U.S., the classical definition of treason....

On Monday, April 17, 1995, a military jet planeload of top military was enroute to Dallas. They had onboard what is not supposed to exist, an American prisoner-of-war, prepared to finger the Pentagon as perpetuated by Clinton, as continuing the POW/Missing in Action cover-up from the Viet Nam war. From sabotage, the plane blew up in the air, killing all onboard, near Alexander City, Alabama. The Pentagon made every effort to cover up what happened. Families of the victims were reportedly not permitted to have any possessions or details. There are strong reasons to believe the plane had a portion of a group of "Seven Days in May" style military officers plotting a coup against the White House. Thereafter, the small group of other flag officers, out of uniform, took up residence in a Paris suburb. A year later, the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Jeremy Boorda, apparently aware of the coup, was assassinated and covered up as a "suicide", a favorite whitewash by the monopoly press. And about the time of Boorda's murder, was assassinated William Colby, former Director of Central Intelligence. He reportedly was assisting the plotters with detailed data. Colby's death was explained by the pressfakers as a "boat accident", although his friends contend it was murder....

http://www.skolnicksreport.com/okcity.html

(Don't even bother to rant about the sources, etc. Couldn't care less. The discussion of Hitler's generals made me think of this, that's all. Of course, it'll never be proven one way or another).

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:16 PM

Right you are, Les. You have a good head for remembering the details.

"When they did dissent in suffient numbers, Hitler often backed down."

Now, that's interesting! I believe the same principle applies elsewhere, and it's one that people would do well to remember when their government is out of line.

I believe that it was in Denmark where they refused to obey the occupying Nazi edict in 1940 that all Danish Jews should henceforth wear a yellow armband when out in public. Seems to me, if I recall correctly, that the Danish king reacted by having everyone wear a yellow armband in protest, including himself, and the Germans promptly backed down on the issue and said no more about it (in Denmark). Can anyone confirm that?

Tyranny depends on most people not speaking out or resisting. If only a few do, it's easy to arrest them and silence them, but you cannot arrest an entire country's population, because you need them to accomplish the daily work of the society, and you don't have the means anyway. Thus, I think that mass civil disobedience is the way to go when dealing with such scoundrels as the Nazis (if they're already in charge). Only thing is, you've got to have a population who are willing to risk it, and you've got to have leaders to lead the way whom people will listen to.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:53 PM

I'd like to know too.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:34 PM

"When they did dissent in suffient numbers, Hitler often backed down."

Any particular examples of this? Just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:19 PM

Moorsoldatenlied

(thing) by Redalien (4 hr) (print)    ?    Tue Jun 08 2004 at 22:11:53


Das Moorsoldatenlied (Peat bog soldiers' song) also "Das Lied der Moorsoldaten" (The song of the Peat bog soldiers) was written in 1933 in the Bürgermoor concentration camp, one of the first concentration camps. An "Emergency decree for the security of the people and the state" was issued the day after the Reichstag fire, which allowed members of the KPD (German Communist Party) to be detained without trial. Bürgermoor was mainly filled with political prisoners, members of the KPD and some members of the NSDAP (The Nazi Party).

They were forced to sing pro-Nazi songs, such as the Horst Wessel song. In their spare time, the prisoners sang their own songs. They were also occasionally granted cultural evenings, to perform to highten morale. In August 1933 one was organised, called "Zirkus Konzentrazani" (A play on words with the word for concentration camp). It is the first place the Moorsoldatenlied was performed. Wolfgang Langhoff (a future director of the German theatre) asked Johann Esser to compose lyrics that would not be objectionable to the guards, but which portrayed concentration camp life. The music was written by Rudi Goguel, in the camp hospital after his comrades had faked an injury for him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wohin auch das Auge blicket,
Moor und Heide nur ringsum
Vogelsang uns nicht erquicket,
Eichen stehen kahl und krumm.

Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor!
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor!

Auf und nieder geh'n die Posten,
keiner, keiner kann hindurch.
Flucht wird nur das Leben kosten!
Vierfach ist umzäunt die Burg.

Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor.
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor.

Doch für uns gibt es kein Klagen,
ewig kann's nicht Winter sein.
Einmal werden froh wir sagen:
Heimat, du bist wieder mein!

Dann zieh'n die Moorsoldaten nicht mehr mit dem Spaten ins Moor.
Dann zieh'n die Moorsoldaten nicht mehr mit dem Spaten ins Moor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Far and wide as the eye can wander,
bog and moor are everywhere
Not a bird sings out to cheer us,
oaks are standing gaunt and bare.

We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.

Up and down the guards are pacing,
no one, no one can break through
Flight would mean a sure death facing,
guns and barbed wire greet our view.

We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.

But from us there's no complaining,
winter will in time be past
One day we shall cry, rejoicing:
"Homeland dear, you're mine at last!"

Then will the peat bog soldiers march no more with their spades to the bog.
Then will the peat bog soldiers march no more with their spades to the bog


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two versions in particular, the Concentration camp version, which had melody by Rudi Goguel. There was also an external verison, arranged in London by Hans Eisler, after an escaped inmate told him about the song. As the inmate was not overly musical, Eisler mistuck the song for a workers' song from the 30 years war. The refrain is the same in both versions, with the concentration camp version being more monotonous "to portray the heavy march of the prisoners through the bog" (Rudi Goguel in an interview with Radio Goethe).

By the end of the war Goguel was no longer thinking of the song, and the first time he came across it again was while staying at the Bodensee. He turned on the radio, and heard the refrain as the station's identifier. "I found out it was the themesong of the German radio broadcast, and after some years I finally learnt what a fantastic journey this song had made throughout the world".

The song was mandatory learning in East Germany after the war, along with many other anti-fascist songs. Many people have released this song, one of the more modern groups to do so was "Die Schnitter" (A word for manual labourers, specifically harvesting crops), who updated the song to be a modern, dancable track. It is on the 2nd Radio Goethe compilation disk, and their 3rd album. Definately worth a listen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lyrics from learning.dada.at/res/pdf/A005A02.PDF
Interview with Goguel from Radio Goethe, translated by Radio Goethe. Unfortunately I could not get hold of the origional German text from the interview


From http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1541326

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:57 PM

According to a page on the U of Mo's Law School web site. The great weakness of the German legal/judicial system of the time was that there was no over-riding standard; no tradition of common law, no Declaration of the Rights of Man. Just the laws that were passed. Having no great experience at dissent, the people tended to accept whatever the government handed out. When they did dissent in suffient numbers, Hitler often backed down.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:03 PM

LH - Warspite never did make it to the breaker's yard. She ran aground off Cornwall and was broken up in situ. That ship always did have a mind of its own! She certainly surprised the Germans at the Second Battle of Narvik - even her seaplane sank a U-Boat there.

The Germans had nothing heavier than a 12 inch at Jutland. Their earlier ships were armed with 11 inch guns. The later Bayern class had 15 inch guns. But their shells worked a lot better than the British shells, which were too sensitive to penetrate heavy armour.

WW2 prisoners - The Germans and Russians both treated each others' prisoners badly. There's a memorial at the site of the Russian PoW camp near the Bergen/Belsen concentration camp commemorating the 50,000 Russian PoWs who died there of disease and malnutrition.

There were Germans who spoke up and acted against Hitler during his time in power, before and during the war. But he was very much IN POWER.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM

Donuel, don't let your rabid, irrational hatred of George W. Bush impair your otherwise "crystillianly" clear logic as pertaining to other issues.

Yes, Adolf had police watching police that watched the police. After all, you can never be too careful, can you?

All wars have atrocities on all sides. The question raised in the latter portion of this thread is more a question of number and of opprotunity vis a vis a desire to commit the same. Common sense would suggest that the non-aggressor nations would be less apt to indulge in this type of behavior whereas aggressor nation personnel use hatred to feed and foment the aggression.

Nations that ascribe to peaceful co-exisstence and who recognize rule-of-law as paramount keep the value of civilization in the focus of their consciousness. Rome did not like to see its armies returning fresh from the battle for a good reason and Cincinatus was hailed as a healthy role model for the landholder soldier. It was he, you may recall, who, upon return from battle as the conquering general, laid aside his armor and returned to his farming estates, to the relief of Roman citizens everywhere. This is the role Washington emulated at the close of the American Revolution and it has left a deep and abiding impression on America ever since.

Now, having said all that, I've heard the stories and seen the photographic evidence, etc. that SOME Americans do commit atrocites in times of war. These actions are illegal in the US and by international law. We seek to observe the rule of law. They are morally repugnent and terrifying in nature and deserve the sternest rebuke. I believe that our revulsion to just this type of excess has a direct bearing on our tendency to try to quell international conflict by means of "police actions" rather than general warfare. Unfortunately, the results of this sort of thinking are less than encouraging in that commited enemies see our self-limiting as weakness to be exploited (i.e., they are playing by a different set of rules[no-holds-barred warfare]); inappropriate police action encourages esculation; subterfuge in peace negotiations; national self deception in believing that we CAN negotiate peace when a desparate enemy seeks ANY advantage to promote his cause; you can probably come up with a few disadvantages of your own at this point.

It's a hard call. In some ways a superpower is like the parent of naughty warring children. How far do you go to break them up? And before you accuse me of parentalism of America, I readily acknowledge that America can behave llike one of the naughty children too: the greedy big brother who wants to have everything his way. I know that is unfortuantely true. So, where are the parents?

That brings us back to the Rule of Law. THAT is the parent of us all, our higher power, if you will. It is our job and our hope that we have the fairest and most effective laws we can for without them we will surely descened into the pit of war, atrocity, ignorance and want.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 03:20 PM

German prisoners of war incarcerated in Canada and the US were treated quite well .... some were sent out to various family farms to help out ... I should add SS personel were more securly confined (and quite rightly so).

German prisoners of war on the Eastern front were treated meagerly well if they had specific education and skills that would benefit Russia in itself (i.e. technitions, engineers, scientists or whatever) ... an ex-German Weimarch officer was one of my Prof's, he was captured at Stalingrad and was a mechanical engineer by profession ... though not treated like a prince, he said he had more in regards to food, and medical care than some of the guards and Russian workers themselves. They used his expertise for maintaining machinery in a lumber mill.

"Hitler had entirely lost his mind by the time the Battle of Berlin was underway"

I guess it was the pressure's of the job ... quite lonely at the top I hear.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:55 PM

Some did disobey orders, one General was ordered by Hitler to proceed to Berlin to defend the city from the oncoming Russians, he proceeded to surrender his troops to the US Command, at that time other Generals could have also surrendered to the US Command, but decided to continue with the hopeless task of defending the city.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:52 PM

It may have been incompetence. If so, however, consider how it would be viewed if the Germans or Japanese had done it, instead of the Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

Okay - I'm sure it was that book (Other Losses) to which I was obliquely referring. The counter-argument to that book that I recall was to the effect that the starvation of the prisoners was not a deliberate act, as the book had averred - it blamed Eisenhauer, in particular - but was due to a combination of unfortunate circumstances and incompetence ... I don't remember enough of the details of either side of the argument to have anything intelligent to say about it, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:38 PM

Regarding Generals who had the nerve to stand up to Hitler: those who did were generally removed from command immediately or perhaps arrested and shot, and there were enough loyal and ignorant Nazi underlings around them to accomplish that quite easily if given the order from The Leader. This made it extremely hazardous and difficult for anyone to attempt to buck the offical line coming from Berlin. Even Hermann Goering was ordered arrested by Hitler in the last couple of days for having the temerity to ask if, supposing Hitler should die in the defence of Berlin, Goering should then assume command of what was left of the Reich.

His question was not regarded as a loyal one.

In such an atmosphere of fear, how the hell can officers exercise independent judgement and expect to live long enough to accomplish anything with it?

The same was true under Stalin.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:27 PM

Hitler had entirely lost his mind by the time the Battle of Berlin was underway. This is not to excuse his behaviour in any way. It's merely an observation.

Regarding the various historically notable atrocities against civilians by Germans in WWI....there's a pretty simple explanation for why the Allies aren't remembered for doing similar things to German civilians....are you ready?


They never got a chance to!!!! The fighting in the western theatre during that war ALL took place in Belgium and France, on Allied ground. This is so elegantly simple and obvious that it amazes me that it has seemingly never occurred to anyone.

Therefore only the German soldiers HAD any opportunity to mistreat a civilian population during their military occupation of foreign ground...and they did so mistreat them, on occasion. So do most occupying armies...on occasion. It was not a general policy.

Regarding the starving to death of German prisoners of war, I don't know about WWI, but I do know that it happened in the west (not just in Russia) at the conclusion of WWII and a lot of German prisoners died. This was during late 1945 and 1946, and it has been documented in the book "Other Losses". The blame for that would appear to fall directly upon the Allied personnel and command structure that ran those prison camps.

If we hadn't won, you'd hear a lot more about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM

Anyone who has seen the numerous films and programmes on the fall of Berlin in World War 2 would have to be of the most twisted mind to give credit to Hitler and his Nazi party.
This man sacrificed the very young and the very old in a mad-cap and hopeless gamble to save Berlin, countless thousands of lives could have been saved if some of his Generals had stood up to the mad-mans insane orders, what took place in east Germany in the last days of was a horror story which hopefully will never be repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 12:01 PM

teenage hooligans, a new phenomenon that only fascism can manage?
I bet the yahooo that proposed that is suffering from PTSS.

Here in the US we have a mini Hitler how is faithfully making the same mistakes as Adolf.

what next

Al Quida invades Normady but General Betrayus and General Traytor are afraid to wake the Commander and Chief?

You hear the current talking point that you can't run a war by commitee. What the hell do you think has been going on?
Of course it is run by the PNAC and American think tank commitees along with every damn defense contractor at the disposal of the US.

Even the Billy Graham reigious patriot machine and evangelical base are on the commitee. This war is dependent on media commitees be it Clear Channel or Fox. This war is the biggest damn commitee ever created for the expoits of petroleum and the miltary industrial defense contractors.

George's handlers are careful to let him believe that he can micro manage the war but the most he can do is stop good ideas in favor of a perpetual war. Even Hitler believed he could micro manage the military when he opened a war on two fronts and went into Russia.


Yep Hitler was a decider all right but George knows better after he got some sense beat into him the night he supposedly choked on a pretzle into unconsciousness. That night the real deciders told him how things were going to go. That night was the night George's meager spark of conscience took its last breath and died.

The man is best influenced by anyone who plays the anti father card.
He will do anything for the delusion that that he rose to the Presidency on his own power and is totally seperate from his dad. This is Jr's demon and will destroy him and his family.

OF course this is merely my opinion. George may in fact be a prophetic genius and the defense industry may be the greatest angels of mercy and morality of all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/germanatrocities_usreport.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM

No mention of the well documented massacres of Belgian civillians by German forces in 1914.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:26 AM

"I don't buy the argument that the Germans were innately more inhuman and vicious than the British or the French. It sounds like the convenient rhetoric of victors to me."

Perhaps so. And I don't know about "innately" - but can anyone tell me of any calculated atrocities committed by the Allies against German civilians or military in WWI? I'm not saying that there weren't any, but just that I've never heard of any - and of course that may be because the victors write the history ... but we haven't exactly been in a jingoistic phase when it comes to the rhetoric of Western history these last forty years or so ...

There was an argument made some years ago concerning the treatment of German POWs in Europe at the end of the war - I believe WWI(?) - but that argument - that those POWs were deliberately starved - was more or less discredited, as I recall.

And there were no doubt horrible things done in the heat of battle by all sides - surrendering soldiers being killed, etc. But, again, I for one would be curious to learn of any Allied war crimes against Germans in WWI.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

Anyone who thinks you can keep a German on his knees doesn't know squat about Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:03 AM

You're right that the Germans had an infatuation with big guns, but they were playing catch-up to the British in WWI when it came to ships. The biggest guns at Jutland were on the British "R" class battleships (5 of them) and the slightly larger "Queen Elizabeth" class (5 more)(which included the famous H.M.S. Warspite)...there were 15" bore guns on those ships...8 apiece. I think the biggest ship guns the Germans had were 13.5" at that point. The majority of capital ships at the time mounted 12" guns.

The Warspite and her sisters did great damage to the Germans at Jutland and then went on to serve in WWII. One of them was sunk by a U-boat in the Med. The others all survived to meet their fate at the scrapyards in the 50's. They really should have preserved the Warspite as a permanent memorial. That ship had an incredible career in the 2 world wars, fought in the North Sea, the Atlantic, the Med, and the Pacific, and won key battles against the Germans (at Narvik) and the Italians (at Matapan). She also had the very good luck to avoid an encounter with Yamamoto's aircraft carrier squadrons in the Indian Ocean who would surely have sunk her, given half a chance. They sank pretty well every other British ship they got a crack at in early '42.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:35 AM

I remember seeing a documentary on the Battle of Jutland. Risky stuff on GB's part and a bad miscalculation by Germany due in part to pride and arrogance. And, yes, the German military had a long infatuation with the "Big Guns". The individual in a war is in a personal fight. That "other" sonofabitch is trying to kill him! It's enough to piss anybody off! You fight back and if there is any steam left over after the fighting is done, that's when things can happen. It's a gruesome business.

Nationalism has served a purpose in the past, for perserving family, kith and kin. The interdependece of the world today has really blurred the lines of distinction in many instances. It makes for good football rivalries and bragging rights but nothing to go to war over. Not anything like the price of oil or who's God is the greatest.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:28 PM

For sure, Slag. ;-)

The main reason that the Germans used their navy to bombard British coastal towns was this: they were attempting to use their fastest big ships, the battlecruisers, to lure a portion of the considerably larger British fleet into a trap set by the main German fleet. In this way they hoped to overwhelm part of the British fleet and perhaps even the odds somewhat. Their scheme never quite reached fruition. The British were too clever for them, and turned the tables on them at the battle of Jutland. Only the superb design of the larger German ships, a risky maneuver called "the battle turn-away", and a bit of rather good luck saved them from utter disaster on that day.

And, yes, they bombed England's cities with Zeppelins and Gothas...for psychological reasons...and simply because they could do it. They also did some long range heavy artillery hits on Paris, I believe. I'm sure the Allies would have done the same to Berlin had they been in any position to. What really bugged France and England so much was that all the significant ground fighting in the west had occurred on Allied soil in France and Belgium. They wanted revenge for that.

I don't buy the argument that the Germans were innately more inhuman and vicious than the British or the French. It sounds like the convenient rhetoric of victors to me. They all did whatever they thought would work and would secure them a victory.

But, Les, you are right that nationalism is a disease for which the human race badly needs to find a cure.