BS: Adolf Hitler

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:22 PM

"The Nazis didn't invent kindergarten, Maria Montessori did."

No they didn't never said they did, neither did Maria Montessori ... Friedrich Fröbel is the father of kindergartens. The Nazis (socialistic regime) did ensure all pre-school children were sent to kindergarten .. whose sole purpose was to indoctrinate children of their policies at an very early age.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:53 PM

Cool LH. I think you must be right re Dylan's allusion. It fits perfectly.

The assumed exigenicies of war have remained little changed until the age of mass communication and public eyes on the battlefield. The ancients used to kill every man, woman, child, all the animals, burn the fields and level every building and obliterate every written reference that could be unearthed. Every civilization had a story or a myth about one lone survivor who, usually with devine help, would come back and topple an empire or at least do some serious payback. Remember Diemos and Phobos, the hellhounds of Ares, wardogs. Yes, Germany just happened to be next on the long list of reveling conquerors. It also seems as though every country points to the atrocities of the "other guys" and says, "Why, we'd never do something like THAT!" and they ALL do! The international hatreds of Europe go back thousands of years and then some. I'm surprized that Jesus made it to the age of 33-34! It must have been devine intervention! With a message like "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you and spitefully use you." you would HAVE to be born again.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:33 PM

Public opinion in the UK was very much against Germany at Versailles. People also remembered Nurse Edith Cavill, poison gas and naval and aerial bombardment of British coastal towns (my own town lost 25 civilians killed by Zepellin L6 on 6 June 1915).

But as Marshal Foch predicted - 'it is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years'. Yes the Treaty was flawed, it was a cause of World War 2, but not as big a cause as Adolf Hitler.

I don't trust nationalism in any form. We'd be better off remembering that we're all human beings, although I'm rather ashamed to share a species with Herr Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM

I read the Foundation series back in the 70's. I always figured that the Bob Dylan line "jewels and binoculars hang from the head of the mule" in the song "Visions of Johanna" probably referred to the character in Asimov's books.

You are absolutely right that tyranny is not confined to either the Right or the Left but that it lurks waiting on all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM

Note:

The Nazis didn't invent kindergarten, Maria Montessori did.

A major psychological reason for the harshness of Clemenceau'
s treaty was the way the High Command conducted the war. Remember Belgium? Shooting large numbers of hostages in retaliation for one or two snipers? Shooting pregnant women, children, and priests? Targeting known passenger ships? The General Staff acted as though they were in the Middle Ages.

Also remember that the Germans in 1930 had no love for democracy. Their glory days had all been under aristocrats and monarchs. Most Germans wanted something like that back. For them, the Versailles Treaty and the Weimar Republic had brought only inflation and hardship.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM

Yes, yes. Those were the events, the "igniter" causes and the certain circumstnaces which helped AH succeed in his endeavor. Restoring a people's belief in themselves and their worthiness is the more intangible yet more significant factor in play. He got the trains to run on time (to the detriment of the transportees) because he got people to believe in themselves again. He used national identity and pride as a rallying point (which in and of itself is not a bad thing) and then he demonstrated that it was something that was taken from them and used against them.

It amazes me how in-tune the founders of the US were to what lends itself to tyranny. They realized that the slippery slope wasn't left or right but it was on EVERY side. They knew the corrupting force of POWER, regardless of its political trappings and they sought the three point balance found in our constitution. It's not perfect but so far, so good. It works. Even though our "Public Servants" fight like dogs to wrest power from each other while you and I just try to make a life for ourselves!

If you've never read Issac Asimov's "The Foundation Trilogy" you might find it very entertaining as well as educational. The character known as "The Mule" is a paradigm for the unsuspected tyrant, so innocuous that no one would believe him capable of what he was capable of!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:27 PM

Too bad the other German parties couldn't see their way toward forming a coalition, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

Thanks for verifying this Les.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:12 PM

A couple of things here...

The Germans not responsible for the Great War - The Austro-Hungarians had been spoiling for a war with Serbia, and the German 'blank cheque' of support allowed them to arrange this, even though it would bring in Russia and France. The Germans had been developing plans for war against France and Russia for years (the Schlieffen Plan).

bILL - When Hitler was created Chancellor the majority of Germans (56.1%) voted against him, but he was the leader of the biggest party. As Chancellor he simply banned the other parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM

True enough. It only takes a sliver over 50% of a public to successfully endorse a government policy, don't forget. Well, no, I mean it takes 50% of the people who are registered to vote and who actually get out and vote! It may take even considerably less than that under certain circumstances (election fraud or more than 2 parties).

Yes, there were a lot of Germans in the 30's who were very leery of Hitler. They failed to coalesce as a united group, and they failed to find a leader who could unite them effectively. Thus, they failed, and Hitler succeeded. After the Reichstag burned and he assumed emergency powers, the show was over. After that, you were either with the Nazis or you were on the outside looking in...and in peril of getting into serious trouble at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

I should add from what I understand Hitler did not look good or appear like a saviour to the all German people ... at least 50% or more we're very, leary of him and his politics of nationalism. So we should be under the deception that all of germany welcomed him with open arms. Much the same that not all of the U.S. voted in George Bush and are behind his policies.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:30 PM

So what did Hitler do that was really good ... we are all aware of the autobahn, cool architecture, kindergardens, volkswagens, good jobs in arnament factories and in the army itself, building up the ego of a defeated nation, nationalizing some corporations (to some this is good, but not to all) ... but what did he really do? Was he a Ghandi, or Martin Luther King and we have been deceived all along by history.

Conviction is nothing, it's the actions that really matter.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:05 PM

LH and others have mades some fine points here. I've resisted adding my tupence 'til now and some of you are undoubtedly greatful. Too bad.

I am always amazed at the Nazi-phobes or Hitler-phobes who condemn everything about the man. In our 20-20 historical, clutural, hindsight it is EASY to see his flaws, his insanity. And as his course played out to the hurt of Germany, the Jews, the Blacks, the Gypsies, the Bulgarians, the, well, you get the picture---to the pain of the whole world, his insanity became starkly evident to even most of his closest henchmen, some of whom tried to dispatch him. Sorry, but I can't help and reflect on how good the world looks without Saddam Hussein in it.

One of the things many overlook is that the moment helped make the man. The Treaty of Versailles was a harsh and punitive burden on post WWI Germany. Hitler DID have some brilliant solutions to many of Germany's very real problems. It is a good debate as to whether or not those solutions were so rooted in Hitler's design for Aryan Utopia that they would not have stood alone, that is, have been an effective "cure" in and of themselves. But to be dismissive of everything Hitler did is riddiculous. It's a hysterical reaction to the man's meglomania. Should we stop breathing air because Hitler breathed air??? Get it?

Do you socialists forget that Nazism was a sort of hyper-socialism and probably more akin to Communism in its effect and demeanor than the right wing politics of today with which so many of you want to paint GWB. And please, I am NOT saying anything about GWB one way or another at the moment. Whoever the poor shmuck sitting atop of the system in America today would look quite a bit like what we already have.

What I AM saying is that when Hitler came along, he looked GOOD to a lot of people. He had conviction about the source of the Germans' miseries. "It's those damn rightwingers!" Yeah, get 'em. It's those damn Commies, get 'em. Name your foe, then go, man, go!

When another Hitler comes along, and believe me, he will, there will be a big welcoming commitee made up of folks, folks like bubblyrat and people to afraid or incapable of thinking for themselves. They will be like many Mudcatters who so readily condemn anything that comes out of GWB's camp or they will be like Rush Limbaugh's ditto heads who sieg heil what ever the man says, or whatever they think he says.

The real solution to keeping future Hitlers at bay is to stop being provincial, to press for REAL education where debate takes place instead of ANSWERS given. To engage in DI-alogue, not MONO-logue. To step outside of your own convictions every once in a while and see the other guy's point of view. To insist on honesty and divest yourselves of self-interest and see what may be good for the whole of mankind.

I know this. The current trend toward polarization is not healthy for the social structure of our world. Whether it falls left or right will not make a difference as the collapse of society and technical society will result in an unimaginable catastrophe, a true Armaggedon. Some people think that THAT may be a good solution. It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

The weird thing is, they all sound so alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:04 PM

No need to go to the net- I heard 'em first time round.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:53 PM

It's the tone of voice I'm referring to, mainly. Find some old Cold War newsreels from the 50's on the Net and you'll see what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

Exaggerated and bombastic? You listen to Geo. W. Bush lately? He's well within the tradition...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:59 PM

Well said in every respect, Fionn.

Isn't it odd how behaviour that was seen as tremendously charismatic in one era by one population could look so exaggerated and ridiculous through the eyes of a later era?

Mussolini's arrogant mugging for his fascist audiences is another classic example of that sort of thing.

I also always notice that the radio announcers and film narrators of the 1940's and 1950's tended to speak in a way that today sounds very exaggerated and bombastic. This is particularly evident in old American war documentaries made in that period. It's downright annoying to listen to that stuff now.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

No-one here knows what it must have been like to be German in the aftermath of WW1. The postwar settlements were iniquitous beyond belief, in particular the Versaille Treaty in which the French fell over themselves to make sure the Germans tasted dirt. In fact Germany had been no worse than any of the other empires that came crashing down in the wake of Ferdinand's assasination, and were not to blame for the war.

Hitler saw the potential to exploit a humiliated population, and was incredibly far-sighted in the way he went about it. He also had a giant chip on his own shoulder that made him a driven man.

Bankers and big business in the US - IBM, the Rothschilds etc - fell oer themselves to invest their dollars in the possibility of war. The New York Stock Exchange took one of its bigest single steps towards recovery the day Hitler was appointed chancellor.

Hitler was also able to capitalise on the fierce antisemitism then rampant across Europe, his original plan (cf Mein Kampf) being to ship all the Jews to Madagascar. Such antisemitism was a major factor in how readily some countries fell in with him, and not only in cenetral/easern Europe. France became a willing ally in transporting its Jews east to their deaths.

What Joe said is right (14 Jan, 07:11pm). Many of us, if the circumstances were right (ie wrong) could stoop to Hitler's level. Mercifully very few of us have anything remotely approaching his low cunning and extraordinary charisma.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:36 PM

Agreed, Les. The Nazis tended to go after anyone they saw as different from themselves...or outside the narrow band of approval that they had concocted in their philosophy.

I agree, Number 6, that the Germans overdid their rearmament program, and that was unreasonable. My point, though, was that it was as natural for them to want to have a strong national military as it was for the French...and for the very same reasons.

The Germans were no more to blame for WWI happening than the French were. It occurred through a bunch of entangling alliances. It was not started by Germany. It started with a falling out between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. The Germans and French were pulled in by their alliances, as were the Russians and the British and the Italians. What a mess it was.

I see no reason why the Germans should have been penalized in the way they were following the conclusion of that war. They were not the sole perpetrators of it by any means, they just fought very well and then had the bad luck to end up on the losing side, by virtue of being significantly outnumbered in both manpower and industry. It was the belated entry of the USA that put the nail in Germany's coffin in that war. Everyone else was worn out, bled white, and tired by 1918, but not the Americans, they were fresh and keen, and they had tremendous resources to bring to bear.

France's desire to punish Germany for something that was not particularly Germany's fault in any exclusive sense set the stage for Hitler's later successes. It was a very stupid move on the part of the French.

If all the involved nations could have gone home with their dignity intact at the end of WWI, it would have been far better for everyone in the long run. That would have been both honorable and wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:28 PM

LH - you said earlier that Hitler 'suffered from extreme paranoia and zenophobia toward 2 groups of people, Jews and Communists'. This of course is true, but the Nazis were also somewhat more than intolerant of people of colour, homosexuals, people with mental and physical 'handicaps', Slavs, 'gypsies', socialists... They were imprisoning these people (and murdering them) long before the Second World War started (that's 1939 for most of the countries involved in the war). I'm not sure why people were surprised at Hitler's actions - many of them were predicted in that nasty little book he wrote while he was in prison.

Don't follow leaders - watch the parking meters!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

"There are the Canadians.... "

Especially the ones that live on reservations.

And the polar ice caps.

And our own government.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

Believe me, Bert, I've seen Boy Scout troops that make me a bit nervous.

A lot of that turn of events is down to the move of Scout HQ from New Brunswick, NJ to the heart of loony christian[sic] fundagelicalism in Texas.

Hence the Scout anti-gay campaigns of late & the turn to christian[sic] militarism.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:46 AM

No one else exists as a credible land threat to Canada. No one.

There are the Canadians....

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:12 AM

"Any nation of large size located in western Europe in the 20's and 30's would have wanted to do the same." .... besides France, who was just as paranoid of the German's (maginot line), who else built up such a large armory out of fear? Germany is the only one really.

I can find no justification in the German's rearming themselves to such a larch scale. It was nationalistic pride, delusions of paranoia being pumped up after getting the sh&t kicked out of them after WWII. But then a lot of countries got the sh&t kicked out of them didn't they. "The lost generation".

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

1) provided a good negative example of certain unacceptable civilised behaviour

2) pinched and desecrated on old cultural good luck symbol - stuill widely used OUTSIDE of Western Europe and most countries involved in WWII

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: skipy
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:57 AM

What have the Nazis ever done for us?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:17 AM

Ther might be better examples for us to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:51 AM

Believe me, Bert, I've seen Boy Scout troops that make me a bit nervous. If their leaders are right-wing yahoos, look out!
-Joe, who was registered with the Scouts for 30 years-

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:29 AM

"hamstrung the unions, eliminated overtime pay, and instituted labour battalions. Then he got the organized churches on his side by throwing money at them. That last idea came from Mussolini. "

Hmmm, you COULD be talking about Little Fascist Johnny...

Now we have the IR laws in place, he has been pandering to the churches by installing 'chaplins' in schools (but I bet poor old Charlie won't get a job...), but is refusing to allow 'chaplins' for anything but 'permitted religions', ie nothing allowed for 'non-Abrahamic' religions, certainly no 'assistance' for committed Atheists, etc...

Now for a bit of Harmless Self Promotion on Mudcat
What A Friend We Have In Johnny
Well, this IS a Music Forum...

:-)
Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:12 AM

As always, these things are seen as "good" or "bad" depending on who won the last conflict...and which team you consider the "home team".

How many people are capable of seeing beyond their tribal, cultural, religious or national identity and being genuinely impartial in their judgements of others? One in a thousand?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Bert
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:00 AM

...And don't forget the Hitler Youth...

And don't forget the Boy Scouts, founded by Baden Powell to train boys in Military techniques.

...an affordable people's car... The British equivalent was the Morris Series E, which got put on the back burner until after the war. A much better car all round until it was superseded by the Minor.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:58 AM

Canada is in a radically different situation, Bill, geographically and in almost every way, from that of Germany in the '30's, positioned as it was and is in the middle of Europe, with powerful ancestral opponents on every side of it, all with no treaty restriction on their military forces.

To the west, France, the traditional opponent, with whom the Germans had fought numerous wars in the past, and who had the world's foremost army following WWI. To the east, Russia, another traditional opponent. To the northwest, the UK, another (more recent) traditional opponent.

And you can't grasp that the Germans felt they had a right to arm themselves in an equal fashion to those traditional opponents????

Canada is by no means in such a position as they were. We have ONLY ONE neighbour, immediately to the south, and it is a neighbour whose population outnumbers us 10 to 1, and we could not possibly fight a war against them and win, so we have chosen to ally ourselves with them instead.

No one else exists as a credible land threat to Canada. No one.

The situation is in no way comparable, Bill. So let me revise my previous statement:

"I don't fault the Germans at all for having wanted to rebuild their armed forces. Any nation of large size located in western Europe in the 20's and 30's would have wanted to do the same."

And they all did, didn't they? I was not praising Naziism, Bill, I was stating a simple pragmatic truth, free of kneejerk prejudice, which is that the Germans, like any other large nation in Europe at that time, felt it absolutely imperative that they have a modern and capable armed forces, comparable to that of their recent foes. That was Realpolitik in a Europe which had seen more wars already than anyone can be bothered to even count.

Period.

Hitler capitalized on that feeling and used it to further his own nefarious ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:17 AM

"I don't fault the Germans at all for having wanted to rebuild their armed forces. Any nation would have wanted to do the same."

Oh no ... not at all. Maybe Canada should do the same ... after all we have the crazy war monging Americans below us, the the drug smuggling Mexicans below them ... we got the Al Qaeda over there ... Belarusia, I certainly don't trust, the Portugese off the Grand Banks taking our cod ... we got the .... Geeeez I'm getting quite worried now .... gonna e-mail my MP right away demanding we build up are own armed forces to protect us all from this surrounding evil.

Jeeeeeezuz H.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:05 AM

"so my question is what can we learn from those early policies that we could apply to todays world that would benefit all, and not just the chosen few."

What we can learn is to spread fear and paranoia into the population of the given country. A good conspiracy theory works well and from this 'theory' find a scapegoat to justify these fears, and paranoia. Good scapegoats are usually people of another culture, colour and religeon. Works really well if all these features can be rolled into one.

Blend all of this into a well organized propaganda machine and this will unify the population (good jobs for all). Of course all this will be focused into building up armaments to protect you from this fear factor. Throw in some social programs to create an illusion of how the government benefits all .. like getting the trains to run on time, build one hell of highway and an affordable people's car and man ... there ya go. You got the population right behind all the way.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:40 PM

Along with glider clubs, there were also shooting clubs. Heinz Guderian directed the first panzer manoeuvres using trucks with cardboard 'armour'. They had trouble with small boys jeering and throwing rocks through the armour. And don't forget the Hitler Youth, which eventually became almost mandatory. It taught close order drill and camping skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM

Yes, the situation with regard to the Russians was very different at the time when the fledgling German Luftwaffe was being quietly built up. Don't forget that Russian and Germany were not enemies then. They were even allies for awhile, when they agreed to partition Poland in '39.

There were also numerous "glider" clubs, and that sort of thing, back in Germany. Gliders had always been tremendously popular with Germans, and these clubs existed in their own right, but they were greatly assisted and enlarged by the Nazis as training grounds for future German military aviators. Smart move, actually. ;-) Anyone attempting to circumvent a totally unfair and oppressive treaty forced upon his nation would do exactly the same thing.

I don't fault the Germans at all for having wanted to rebuild their armed forces. Any nation would have wanted to do the same. It was most unfortunate that they fell under the spell of an unstable demagogue and a most unpleasant bunch of fanatics and scoundrels while they were engaged in doing it.

The Versailles Treaty was wrongful, unfair, and punitive in the extreme. They were justified in being angry about it, and in trying to circumvent it, in my opinion.

Americans, placed in a similar spot, would have done the same. So would the English. So would the French. So would the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:50 PM

And they tried some tactics on the Spanish. Guernica come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:39 PM

I asked my old history teacher where the Luftwaffe came from. I mean, the Treaty of Versailles had imposed very strict limits on German air forces and you don't raise an air force overnight.

Know where it came from? Ye Olde Teacher didn't, but I researched it and found out.

The Luftwaffe was trained in...the Soviet Union. Russia. Germany used airfields in Russian to train the pilots who would, in 1940, be flying against Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:28 PM

As to 'how', Hitler hamstrung the unions, eliminated overtime pay, and instituted labour batallions. Then he got the organized churches on his side by throwing money at them. That last idea came from Mussolini.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

From a bunch of rich industrialists, a number of whom were located in the USA. War is good business.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

After WW 1 Germany was on her knees. No food, no infrastructure, inflation to the point where they needed a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. Ok, a question:

Where did Hitler get the money to arm Germany and raise so much hell in Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:45 PM

Exactly my point, Joe. Well said. People are eager to label such individuals as Hitler or Saddam or Stalin as extraordinary "monsters", as you say, because they are unwilling to consider that they themselves (or their leaders) are quite capable of making the same terrible mistakes...given the right circumstances. The same is true of the standard knee-jerk demonization of evil "Nazis" that people indulge in endlessly. It's a handy excuse to avoid looking at much more present realities with a much more critical eye. They can't admit or face up to the possibility that they might well fall for something similar just as easily as the Germans did in '33-'45. It can happen here. And it does happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:34 PM

Don't forget that he was well and truly supported by many other mentally unstable guys like Himmler - who after personally leading "the Final Solution" Project, truly believed that he could then negotiate with the Allies to end the War and protect himself from the consequences of his actions.

Also, Hitler and his thuggish henchmen (who look mostly indistinguishable to outsiders like me from many of the 'US redneck right wing', including those who have posted here at Mudcat!) were strongly supported by rich Capitalists (including some in the USA - some of whom were the grandfathers of current US Poiticians...) who saw an easy way to make lots of money, and thought that they could 'easily control him', much as the US has often thought it control others like Saddam and certain South American Dictators...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

Hitler has just been captured by some duck hunters in Arkansas. It must be true since the newspaper (I think, called the World Digest), advertised itself as the only reliable source of information in the world). It also had the first pictures ever taken in Hell. They have great stuff at CVS.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:11 PM

In many ways, Hitler was very much like us - a human being, not a monster. That's what's so troubling. It wouldn't take much to turn any one of us into a Hitler, or into one of his followers.

People scream about any attempt to portray Hitler sympathetically, perhaps because they refuse to believe that they could do the same. I think he did what he did for what he thought were good reasons. If we are to avoid another Holocaust, we must study ourselves in comparison to Hitler, a real human being.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:59 PM

Thankyou LH, you've said in there what I was trying, & I think failed, to say in my 1st post.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:57 PM

People seek simplistic solutions instead of actual ones.

Hitler and his crew provided simplistic solutions ("It's the fault of the Internation Jewish Communist Conspiracy!"). People bought into it because it's easier than thinking, easier than accepting the truth that you brought on your problems yourself.

Please read Eric Hoffer's book "The True Believer."

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM

The only thing Hitler and his ilk can teach is is what not to do. People like Hitler understand that desperation leads to tunnel-vision - that many people are willing to sacrifice higher abstractions like "equality" and "human dignity" in favor of more basic needs like "security" and "safety". Unfortunately, even today, there are many otherwise sensible people who are willing to listen to "leaders" who tell them things are desperate, whether they are or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:34 PM

To simply label Hitler a "madman" is to avoid having to do much thinking about the man. He was not, by the textbook definition of insanity, a madman when he very effectively led a fledgling political party through years of social ferment all the way to the pinnacle of power in his country.

What he was, was this: A pscychologically unstable man. A man who suffered from extreme paranoia and zenophobia toward 2 groups of people, Jews and Communists. A ruthless man who was willing to do whatever it took to gain power. A brilliant orator. A clever negotiator. A charismatic leader of other people. A man who was quite willing to bluff and lie outrageously when conducting diplomacy with other nations.

Such men are very dangerous, but they sometimes do very well and become known as heroes (if they win).

I think it is glib, unthinking, and basically pointless to routinely describe Hitler as "a madman". He was not seen as a madman by millions of Germans who supported him. If he had been clearly mad, I think it would have been immediately apparent to many of them, wouldn't it?

He definitely became mad eventually when he started losing the war. He lost his mind. No doubt about it. So would many other ruthless and unstable men, under the same disastrous circumstances.

To call enemy leaders "madmen" is a standard propaganda technique, intended to incite extreme fear and hatred in the people to whom the propaganda is directed. It is assumed that this will make them fight harder in a war against those enemy leaders.

Thus, Saddam Hussein was referred to as a "madman", and Ahmadinejad is referred to as a "madman". Standard propaganada. The truth is, Saddam was not a madman, he was a ruthless, strongarm, bloody dictator who made mistakes now and then. Ahmadinejad is very likely not a madman either, by any stretch of the imagination, but the American administration will label him as such in order to demonize him.

Is Bush a madman? I doubt it. I think he's probably just not a very smart man.

Okay....enough lecturing on the term "madman", so frequently used for political purposes by people who want their public to support a war...

How about your question? Did Hitler make some smart and effective moves in restoring Germany's economy and strength? Yeah...I figure so. Were those moves fatally compromised by his dark side? Yeah.

If I was going to turn a society around, I'd set about doing it quite differently than he did. ;-) I would not do it by demonizing certain minority groups as a motivator for the rest of the people. I would do it by increasing employment, providing a fairer justice system, and protecting the environment (and a great many jobs could be created to do that). I would provide free national health care for all citizens. I would avoid provoking wars with other countries. I would attack NO other country upon any pretext whatsoever. I would avoid over-emphasizing military spending to the detriment of civilian spending. I would ensure that political parties were not beholden to huge corporate sponsors, but to the general public who elects them.

Would that be easy? Hell, no. Anyone who tried it in the USA would end up dead, most likely.