BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM

Jim, access is free. You just have to answer a couple of questions.

You said, "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry,"

The FT states,
" "We don't see [the UK] as being unusually weak in recent years." In 2014, he said, Britain was one of the best-performing nations in terms of manufacturing activity's rate of expansion,"

and,
"Yet Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world."

So, your statement is proved wrong.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

"Jim, your links relevant to manufacturing are years out of date."
Get stuffed Keith - when those industries die they diew - when the jobs are gone they're gone.
My links range from 1999 to 2016 across the board
The earliest is Textiles (1999) are you seriously suggesting that a new textile industry has miraculously emerged from the ashes phoenix-like?
Of all the industries, we know that our clothing comes almost exclusively from abroad.
Steel - 2016 the rest 2013 and 2011
It was announced ten years ago that our shipping industry had passed the point of no return
Are we all of a sudden producing car components instead of assembling them?
Not only do the industries die, but the jobs, the skills, the experience, the knowledge - and the loyalty that went into those industries dies with them - forever - you're quite likely to find a skilled worker, or administrator from these former industries serving behind a till in Sainsburys.
Our industries have been killed of for profit - not for the well-being of us all, but to make the wealthy few more wealthy
I couldn't open your last link by the way, not a subscriber to the Fanancial Times, but teh heading I could access told it as it is UK manufacturing retains bright spots despite overall gloom
Bright SPOTs indicate measles, not healthy industry -eexactly what has changed recently to show we are on a roll industial-wise.
It is predicted that we are probably heading for another recession as the economy is throwing its lot in with property again - that caused the last crash.
Why do you do this?
You defend and excuse everything that's shitty, wrong, evil, unfair and unjust in this world on principle - even to the point of defending mass-murder and State Terrorism.
What kind of person does that?
You are not inteseted in facts - you are only interested in proving taht you are right and everybody else is wrong.
And you call me obsessive.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:02 PM

Steve,
I did not quote at all.

How could you? It all substantiated my post!

you took the bits that fitted your agenda.

Completely untrue!
The whole piece was up-beat and my brief quote was entirely representative.
Your accusation was false.

Also this,
You're very good at telling less than half the tale, Keith, and we always have to check every single thing you say.

I keep asking for examples of misleading quotes but you never produce any because you can't.
False personal attacks because you can not challenge what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

I am shocked that so many people on the left think that supporting european multi national capitalism is better than supporting non european multi national capitalism.
NEXT, let me remind you that when ireland voted against the lisbon treaty they were made to vote again, if the UK votes to leave, they will not be allowed to, they will be offered lots of concessions and they will take them and stay., if they do not they will be made to vote again, the reason will be in the interests of democracy[ [or the very wealthy]the majority was not great enough.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:36 PM

That's right. And at the same time as the ideological dismantling of manufacturing industry was going on, regardless of the disastrous effects on communities (in non-Tory areas), the Tories lifted almost all regulation from the banks and other financial institutions. The biggest failure of New Labour was the failure to restore that regulation. Of course, the yanks were at it too, and we do what they do, don't we, Tony Blair? Some sovereignty that we want back! We don't train enough young people in the skills we need, so we need immigration in order to get skilled workers. Oh yes, we do have an "apprenticeship scheme" which you'd better be on otherwise you can forget jobseekers. You'll be paid about half the minimum wage and there will be next to no supervision of employers who are supposed to be training these youngsters. To be fair, some take their responsibilities seriously, but to others it's cheap labour, floor sweepers and tea-makers.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:17 PM

"Declined on paper"...

Have you ever visited a former hub of manufacturing industry? Acres of devastation. And not just heavy industry. In Harlow where there was all kinds of light industry in industrial areas it's all warehouses and warehouse stores staffed by a couple of lonely assistants on the pay desk.

Much of what is currently still called manufacturing is in fact assembly work, with the parts all manufactured in other parts of the world.

Change happens. Britain is not a manufacturing country in the sense it was, andd that's not wholly a bad thing. But the way iit has been done has been in a way that maximised the harm done to the communities dependant on the industries that have gone, and largely shrugged off the need to make sure that thhere were still real and dignified jobs for the people of those communities.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:55 PM

"You quoted and quoted accurately and I did not," eh?

I did not quote at all. You did what the bible-bashers do when they lift bits out of scripture to prove their non-points - you took the bits that fitted your agenda. What I said was a riposte to that. Behave yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:33 PM

Jim, your links relevant to manufacturing are years out of date.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM

Jim,
This is a industrialists magazine based on telling you what a good job they are doing

It is the insider journal reporting on the actual state of manufacturing.
Here is the Financial Times in full agreement,
"Chris Williamson, chief economist at Markit, the data company that conducts surveys of manufacturing activity around the world, agreed: "We don't see [the UK] as being unusually weak in recent years." In 2014, he said, Britain was one of the best-performing nations in terms of manufacturing activity's rate of expansion, before — like the US — sliding down the rankings."

"Yet Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world. There are success stories to go with the doom and gloom, including the renaissance in Britain's automobile industry and its continued excellence in aerospace."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ff19bb16-c4fa-11e5-b3b1-7b2481276e45.html#axzz4BqzDkjQ1

Steve, we are also, as you said, the 7th biggest economy.
The difference is due to our disproportionately large economic sector.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:42 AM

Car industry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

"Wrong again Jim!"
Course I am Keith
#"The Manufacturer" - you have to be joking.
This is a industrialists magazine based on telling you what a good job they are doing - a 'promo' - what else are they going to tell us?
It headlines the car industry - Britain's role in the Car industry is to assemble parts made elsewhere - you may call that "manufacturing" if you wish.
Same with electonics - assembling components made (often very shoddily) in some of the poorest parts of the world for some of the worst wages and under horrific conditions.
We are reminded where our textiles come from every time a death=trap of a factory falls down burying hundreds of workers who were exiting on survival rate wages.
Our manufacturing industries are gone, as are the skills that ran them.
I have worked with skilled craftsmen, boilermakers, riveters, lathe turners, mold-makers....... men who had skills that would blind you - gone.
I sent years learning to wind armatures for electric motors,from hand drills to huge generators - doubt if there are any left now.
It would be fine if the "progress" that has been made benefited us all, but, as society is rin for profit which benefits a tiny, privileged minority - result - lengthening dole queues , homelessness, a destabalised population and a massive gap between having and doing without.
The maufacturer - give us a break!
<
a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2047860/British-car-industry-Why-none.html">Cars
STEEL
Shiipping
Textiles
Slow Death of British Industry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve, Jim said "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry,"
That was wrong.
Do you criticise him for that wildly inaccurate and misleading statement?
No. Why not?

I quoted and quoted accurately Steve.
You did not.
Here are some more actual quotes from the same piece.

"Overall, the UK's industrial sector has increased by 1.4% a year since 1948, according to a recent report from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

The ONS attributes the sustained growth to a better quality, more skilled workforce; a shift in production from low to high productivity goods; improvements in automation and ICT; increased investment in R&D, and a more integrated global economy."

"Although the contribution of manufacturing to GDP has declined on paper, many of the services provided to manufacturers which would have once been considered part of manufacturing, such as catering; cleaning; building services, security and so on, are now allocated into different areas of the economy.

However, those contributions are directly reliant on manufacturing for continued business and could actually be considered as a part of manufacturing's GDP input. As such, many are calling for the true value of manufacturing to be recognised, a move which would see the widely cited figure of 10% of GVA almost doubling to 19%."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:57 AM

Yep, Keith, keep reading your link: less than 10% of jobs in this country are in manufacturing, down from 25% pre-Thatcher. Only the eleventh largest manufacturer but the fifth largest economy, with productivity stubbornly flat (showing that the in-work statistics are fraudulent). You're very good at telling less than half the tale, Keith, and we always have to check every single thing you say.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM

Jim,
The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry, under no circumstances can any dependent economy be described as "doing well".
Wrong again Jim!
"Contrary to common belief, UK manufacturing is strong with the UK currently the 11th largest manufacturing nation in the world. "
http://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:22 AM

I see that both the Green Party and UKIP have said they won't be putting up candidates either in the election for Jo Cox's replacement..

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM

The out campaign has increasingly become an appeal to ignorance and fear of foreigners. A cheap-shot, easy way of pandering to prejudice. It's bloody appalling, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM

"The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU. Our unemployment figures are low compared to the EU. Our currency is depressingly strong compared to the Euro and other European Currencies. Oh dear what a terrible state we are in - hell as like."

Great reasons for maintaining the status quo and remaining in the EU

Cant remember who wrote that any suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 09:29 AM

If a joba wages and conditions are not good enough to attract people native to the country they are not good enough. They need to be changed so that they are seen as acceptable to local people. After all, that is what would have to happen if the immigrants who might do the jobs were not allowed.

Simpler to change the wages and conditions. Same result achieved in a way that is perfectly acceptable within EU rules.

No, I haven't worked in Norway. I would suspect that the governmments and unions in those countries will have imposed those kind of requirements on employers.
.............

The tragedy of Jo Cox's killing should cause a bit of sobering up in the increasingly nasty tone of this referendum campaign.

I can't recall anything like the announcement that thhe Tories won't be putting up a candidate in the by election to choose a successor to her as MP.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM

"Tell me Jim did Lenin, Stalin and Mao know that?"
You tell me - you obviously didn't, but you do now
Blood nonsense to put the interests of an avaricious and corrupt state before that of your family - what eejit though that one up?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM

"The rising and accelerating gap between rich and poor is an indication of who is benefiting from that "doing well".

Well according to the BBC, and I see no reason for them to lie, the world economy doubled in the last quarter century. The number of those considered to be living in "poverty" halved, and the numbers of people considered to be "middle-class" doubled. These are figures and statistics they broadcast world wide and I do not believe that they were challenged.

Now let us take a look as those who are considered rich:

Top 50 in the world does not include one Briton and no member of the aristocracy.

Top 25 in the UK are largely foreign and only two members of the aristocracy appear. The rest appear to be self-made men, or are the sons of self-made men. Tell me Jim do you begrudge people the fruits of their labours? If so can you define the point at which you draw the line.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

"I suppose you know that putting the interests of the State over that of the people is the classic definition of 'fascism'?"
Jim Carroll

Tell me Jim did Lenin, Stalin and Mao know that?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM

I suppose you know that putting the interests of the State over that of the people is the classic definition of 'fascism'?
Jim Carrll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:57 AM

"And that is why our welfare costs will continue to rise and yet will always lag and never be enough."
So you are saying that we should abandon feeding our family because the Government can't get its act together - nice to know.
I paid taxes all my working life, part of which was to cover the eventuality of my becoming employed - it seems it was really for politicians duck palaces.
"Benefits are no more than insurance payouts.
Any system that is unable to provide work on a major scale is not fit for purpose.
"The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU"
The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry, under no circumstances can any dependent economy be described as "doing well".
The rising and accelerating gap between rich and poor is an indication of who is benefiting from that "doing well".
Few, if any working people choose to be out of work deliberately, just as any worker who withdraws his Labour willingly chooses to go on strike - both myths of the 'haves'.
Nice to have it in writing that we must put the interested of the bankers before that of our families though
Tories - an endless source of entertainment!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

The campaign reached a low point yesterday with the unveiling of Farage's anti-immigration poster, which showed a huge queue, not of immigrants trying to enter the UK, as implied, but a line of refugees, mostly black, who were nowhere near a UK border. In the unveiling ceremony, Nigel is standing right in front of it. Bloody racist scumbag.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM

Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.

And that is why our welfare costs will continue to rise and yet will always lag and never be enough.

The person who follows that advice above will always find themselves marked down when applying for any job when compared to someone who ignored it, as prospective employers will always look at working track record and someone who has sat on their fat arse for years because they got more on benefits and "entitlements" loses out to someone who chose to work instead - why? - demonstration of work ethic.

In the places MGOH mentioned you only get so long on benefits then you get compulsory retraining and you then have a choice take the job offered or take drastically reduced benefits.

The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU. Our unemployment figures are low compared to the EU. Our currency is depressingly strong compared to the Euro and other European Currencies. Oh dear what a terrible state we are in - hell as like.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:11 AM

" support our selective unemployed on benefits "
Tory crap
Unemployment benefit
National minimum wage
Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.
Sure, we can all leave our families, "get on our bikes" maybe, a was once suggested - down to where the work is to find that the cost of accommodation is so prohibitive that it is impossible to find anywhere to live - try looking at London prices.
Having dismantled British industry, this mob now seek to blame the victims of that policy for the consequences.
High unemployment figures are one of the direct cause of driving down wage levels - I worked out from conversations I had in Liverpool recently that what some self-employed electricians were charging to rewire a house is slightly above the cost of buying the materials - crazy!!
Of course employers are hiring the cheapest where they are able - they would be mad not to - I've been told often enough that business is not based on sentiment.
Rather strange watching pro- Brexits being interviewed and announcing passionately that they want their "independence" back.
What independence?
In the present situation, the only independence Britain can aspire to today is the right to choose who to be dependent on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 04:55 AM

" support our selective unemployed on benefits "
Tory crap
Unemployment benefit
National minimum wage
Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.
Sure, we can all leave our families, "get on our bikes" maybe, a was once suggested - down to where the work is to find that the cost of accommodation is so prohibitive that it is impossible to find anywhere to live - try looking at London prices.
Having dismantled British industry, this mob now seek to blame the victims of that policy for the consequences.
High unemployment figures are one of the direct cause of driving down wage levels - I worked out from conversations I had in Liverpool recently that what some self-employed electricians were charging to rewire a house is slightly above the cost of buying the materials - crazy!!
Of course employers are hiring the cheapest where they are able - they would be mad not to - I've been told often enough that business is not based on sentiment.
Rather strange watching pro- Brexits being interviewed and announcing passionately that they want their "independence" back.
What independence?
In the present situation, the only independence Britain can aspire to today is the right to choose who to be dependent on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM

So sorry Steve. Such an incomprehensible waste of a wonderful human life. I was very upset when I heard, especially for her husband and two children.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:48 AM

If Germany feels it advantageous for Germany to make some sort of deal with the UK then Germany will use its economic, financial and political clout within the EU to get exactly what it wants - it always has in the past.

In your posts where you refer to countries such as Norway and Switzerland you talk about them and free movement of labour and access as though they were like the UK, France, Netherlands or Germany - simply put, they are not, they apply their own interpretation of what they see as being free access and it is a great deal more restrictive than you think.

You didn't answer my question as to whether or not you had worked in either of these countries Kevin and were talking from experience. I have not worked in Switzerland but have experience in having worked in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, France and the Netherlands and can tell you from practical experience the differences of working in each.

Where is it a matter of employers employing immigrants because they will work for less, and put up with terrible conditions? As far as the "Remain" campaign tell us the UK needs immigrants because our own population are not prepared to do certain jobs and we are daft enough to support our selective unemployed on benefits until something more acceptable to them comes along, there are a few countries on that list above where after a limited time that just would not be allowed to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:14 AM

Sincerest condolences to you and all family and friends, sad day indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:35 PM

Well we're in bits here. The murdered MP's mum is a friend of my family member, who saw Jo grow up through her childhood and teen years. She was feisty, passionate and committed and she was in politics for the good she could do, never for herself. Christ, if there's one day I wish I could rewind and start again. Senseless, incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:00 PM

Even if Germany did decide that it was so important to fix up trade with the UK that it was worth the serious costs (it would involve serious risks of further break-up of the EU), it is hard to envisage unamimous agreement by 26 other countries.

It's a gamble, at pretty long odds. If we get out we'll find if I'm right.

Where a local candidate is available and is as capable of doing a job as an immigrant they will in most cases have significant advantages for an employer they should get the job. Where it's a matter of employers employing immigrants because they will work for less, and put up with terrible conditions, that is a scandal that needs to be stamped out. A fair wage and decent working conditions, for any job, needs to be legally required ane enforced which will attract local applicants, and which will have been reached through negotiations with workers and unions.

And that is something which should be added to the Social Charter of the EU. To get that would involve a combined push by allies across Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:55 PM

Really? Shooting politicians, what is this, America? I thought y'all were more civilized than that...

A sad day, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM

"As we buy more from them than they do from us, "
Probably because we haven't got anything to sell any more after the Tories closed down all our industries, d'y' think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 04:07 PM

If I recall correctly Norway's deal with the EU was based on a kind of trial membership. They accepted free movement and other stuff because that was what they would have to accept if they went for full membership. As it turned out they decided not to accept full membership and they may, one day, decide to re-negotiate their deal.

Don't forget folks you now have just one week left to escape the madness of a United States Of Europe. David's and George's careers are in your hands. Vote leave.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM

"There is no realistic possibility that the UK - or whatever is left of it when the dust settles and Scotland has probably gone - will be treated differently. That would require every single other country agreeing to that, and they won't. And free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK. We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries."

The UK is the EU's second largest net contributor after Germany
The UK makes up 12.4% of the population of the EU
Within the EU the UK is Germany's largest customer

The above constitutes negotiating leverage with the country that is the economic driving force of the EU - Germany - they are not renowned for cutting off their noses to spite their face. When push comes to shove pragmatism is more their style.

Within the EU over 80% of Scotland's trade is within the UK.
The UK is a member of the EU, Scotland is not, should the UK decide to leave the EU, then Scotland would have to apply to join - and every single other member would have to agree to that - Off the top of my head I can think of six who would block Scotland for reasons centred about what those countries see as their own best interests.

"free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK"

As we buy more from them than they do from us, and considering the economic state of the EU and the Eurozone, I would suggest that the boot is very much on the other foot.

"We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries UK."

Maybe, maybe not, but it does mean that we can set up bilateral trade with other countries that we are at present unable to do due to our EU membership.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

Both Norway and Switzerland,, though not in the EU, have had to agree to the same policy on freedom of access and employment
for other EU citizens as other countries. That is required as a condition of access to free trade with the EU.

I take it that you have experience in working in one or other of the two Kevin?

I most certainly would like to see someone, EU citizen, or not, just bimble into either looking for work, residence, or benefits.

In Norway you have to have the job before you travel, and to get the job your employer has to have proved that no Norwegian can do it before you are offered it.

The Norwegian parliament has to approve all new legislation handed down from Brussels by the EU which has "significant new obligations". From the 23,000 EU laws currently in force, the EEA has incorporated around 5,000 (in force) meaning that Norway is subject to roughly 21% of EU laws.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:30 PM

My condolences to all rational minds.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM

I don't think she was killed whilst actively campaigning for Remain though! She was or had just been to her surgery meeting constituents. I've seen the FB posts suggesting that the murderer shouted "Britain First" when he killed her which would suggest he was a right wing extremist and Leave supporter. However certainly though it may be why she was killed - that hasn't actually been officially confirmed yet!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:16 PM

Labour MP campaigning to stay in shot dead and her companion stabbed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 11:08 AM

Both Norway and Switzerland,, though not in the EU, have had to agree to the same policy on freedom of access and employment
for other EU citizens as other countries. That is required as a condition of access to free trade with the EU.

There is no realistic possibility that the UK - or whatever is left of it when the dust settles and Scotland has probably gone - will be treated differently. That would require every single other country agreeing to that, and they won't. And free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK. We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries..

And of course, once outside the EU the UK has no say whatsoever about any future changes, such as Turkey getting membership with free movement.

The Brexit line is to promise immigration control, and use that to win votes, and it could well be succesful.. But that is based on assumptions about how the EU will act which just don't add up. The immigration promises are just a house of cards. When the people who were taken in wake up and face the truth, the consequences could be frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:38 AM

"As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it. Those who vote for leaving on the basis of promises about that are going to be bitterly let down. They will find they have been victim of a con trick.

The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere."

You've nailed it, McG!

I'm of the opinion that Labour are deliberately keeping a low profile in the hope (expectation?) that the Tory Party will commit hara-kiri during the debate - at the moment that looks a distinct possibility. Please, please, pretty please....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:09 AM

"The Labour position is ....... that the EU is far from perfect, badly needs reforms ....... The only way to do anything effective towards bringing the needed changes about ......... is to stick in and work together with friends in other countries."

All well and good, but the track record of the EU has shown that to be EU-speak that just kicks the can another mile, or should that be 1.6 kilometres, down the road. The EU will never reform itself it has had more than enough time and way too many chances to do so already. The EU Commissioners (An unelected body) will never relinquish their power, just as they will never actually produce an audited record of their finances. None of the member states have ever been able to change the direction of this juggernaut by working from inside and the plain truth is that we voted to join on the false promise that we were joining a trade block, not some corrupt political scheme to create a United States of Europe.

By the way when it comes down to the "nitty-gritty" this whole referendum actually is:

"a squabble between people on one side saying the EU is the work of the devil, and those who say it's a resounding success."

IN or OUT is what is being decided, not the best way of bringing about change to the EU.

I can remember Tony Blair toddling over to Brussels to barter away a large chunk of the UK rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher and coming back with a reduced UK rebate on the premise that the Common Agricultural Policy was to be revised and gradually dispensed with altogether. We immediately got the reduced rebate while the CAP remained in place and intact exactly as it had been before - because it didn't sit well with France.

As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it.

Do you honestly mean to tell us that being able to say No and being able to turn people round on landing and returning them will not reduce immigration? Tell me Kevin which entity has the longer border the EU or the UK? If we are in the EU anyone making across the borders into the EU and are accepted as asylum seekers in the EU can then quite legally come to the UK. If we are not in the EU then that cannot happen. Same goes for economic migrants, etc. If we are not in the EU we get to say who comes in and we get to say who can stay.

"The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere."

Going that route you will always never have enough and the standard of services will regress and diminish. To reduce the factors you speak of means exporting jobs and pouring money into a massive multi-nation building programme in the countries that the USSR destroyed between 1945 and 1991 on the sole condition that their populations stay put - no freedom of movement in the Warsaw Pact.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 09:23 AM

The Labour position is a pretty straightforward and sensible one actually, and it has repeatedly been articulately stated. It is that the EU is far from perfect, badly needs reforms, but not the one Cameron was trying ineffectively to bully other countries to accept.

The only way to do anything effective towards bringing the needed changes about- defending and building on the Social Chapter, and democratising decision making - is to stick in and work together with friends in other countries.

But of course the media prefer to focus on the bloodletting between factions in the Tory party. Stuff from Labour is just not covered. It doesn't fit in with the selected plot, which is a squabble between people on one side saying the EU is the work of the devil, and those who say it's a resounnding success.

As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it. Those who vote for leaving on the basis of promises about that are going to be bitterly let down. They will find they have been victim of a con trick.

The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

Delighted to see Neil Garage and Bob the Gob buccaneering on the high seas yesterday. The whole thing is beyond parody, I bet Mr. Cameron is really regretting instigating this whole referendum business, no-one's coming out of it well.

The Tories are imploding in the most spectacular way, Labour has show itself to be utterly lacking in it's ability to promote whatever viewpoint it stands for, and is paying the price for abandoning it's core voters who have all headed off to the right to join the charlatan Farage and his travelling freakshow.

You really have to be impressed. Love the Eye cover!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 09:24 PM

Though there is no United Kingdom team in the European Cup, I pedantically point out.

Private Eye made the same joke on the front cover of current issue .

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 08:32 AM

A German politics/football cartoon of today:

A photo of chancelor Merkel and minister for economy Gabriel with the following (fake) captions.

Gabriel asks: "Do you think the Brexit will come?"
Merkel (beaming): "At the latest in the quarterfinals"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:56 AM

"But Jom I thought you said that had been done already"
Only Bobad, and haven't got round to that -decided to wait till his next outburst
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM

Happy Birthday Steve with A European greeting, glücklich Geburtstag, Joyeux anniversaire, •Breithlá Sona etc

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM

Jim Carroll - 15 Jun 16 - 03:21 AM

But Jom I thought you said that had been done already, or was your previous post just more Carroll "Made-Up-Shit", perfect example of it mind you.

Of course it was a joke Mr Shaw, couldn't resist yankin' the chain - Have a great day.