BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:14 AM

The latest edition of question time may be a help to you Americans who are struggling to understand what all the fuss is about

Mr Frank Field gives reasoned replies to the questioners.


BBC Question Time.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:19 AM

As the fifth wealthiest economy in the world, how can Britain manage without the EU?. We should get out and spend the £50.000,000 a day we pay to the EU on our failing NHS, British steel, our own farms(of which many are being paid NOT to produce cattle or arable products) We can have our troops back to protect us if necessary... and employ more if needed. We can control our own borders re immigration. We will no longer be governed by the powers that be in Brussels.. (name one of them if you can). It might be a little tough at the start but we will prosper eventually as Norway have done... they stayed out and still have the trade... their workers are some of the best paid in the world. The EU needs Britains' money but do we really need their failing economy... I think not. Why should we be governed by an almost secret EU society in Brussels~? I'd like to see us get back to what we know and understand. We had free trade with the world before joining the EU. Why can we not have the same~? We are still mostly allies, not enemies..... why should that suddenly stop. By the way.. this is one Brits view of it all... although many on Facebook agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM

GB wasn't actually created as one state until 1707 more than a century after Elizabeth died.
Union was the result of greed and lack of due diligence. Scotland was bankrupt and England was happy to step in, just like they did when RBS and Halifax/BoS got greedy and less than diligent.
History repeats itself, it has to, nobody is listening.
There will be other Greeces, I confidently predict.

That is the strength of a Union, and why they have regulations.
Love it or hate it you gotta be careful of who you elect either way.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM

Aaaaahh-yup to that, Allan! Leave that to the regulars! 😎

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM

Actually I did know the info. Just posted the second post and gave the link from an official source as proof. Saves getting into the Yes it is - no it isn't kind of discussion!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:48 AM

Mr. Conn, I bow to your superior Googling-skills, and I withdraw. 😄😎

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:20 AM

And neither MGM Lion or myself even touch on Barnacle's the Gloriana/James creating a country thing! What country would that be that Elizabeth I created? Surely not England! And she didn't create GB either. Her dying meant that a Scottish king succeeded to her throne so hardly her creating any country. And neither did James actually create a new country/state. He wanted to but it didn't happen as neither existing country wanted anything to do with it. One country was created decades later through the Cromwellian conquest but it didn't last more than a few years. GB wasn't actually created as one state until 1707 more than a century after Elizabeth died.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

What's the spring-breathing jess'mine and rose,
   What's the summer, with all its gay train,
Or the plenty of autumn, to those
   Who've barter'd their freedom for gain?

Well, we bartered our freedom, but did we get the gain?

Personally, I'm not too bothered whether we'll be tuppence a week better off or tuppence a week worse off, I just want to get out from under the EU jackboot. But then, I voted 'out' in 1975, and was roundly vilified for it at the time.

Now, to (mis)quote Pete Townshend, I hope WE WON'T BE FOOLED AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:07 AM

Ooops sorry and I think the Royal Mint's website takes precedence over the Rampant Scotland site!

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:01 AM

Backwoodsman but they (ie the Scottish notes) are legal currency and anyway Bank of England notes are not themselves legal tender throughout the UK. They are only legal tender in England and Wales!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 05:33 AM

Remember - only Wetherspoons have the Brexit facts. Whilst hitherto partial to their full-English (especially in the hoary timbered gloom of the Royal Hop Pole in Tewkesbury of a merry May morn) I confess to having lost my appetite of late...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:26 AM

Are Yanks allowed to weigh in. why not? Obama did.
As long as we can be candid on our opinions about Trump ‽

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM

I have stopped listening to any of the debates as the whole thing has degenerated into farce - a travesty as it's such an important decision.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

Allan Conn - whilst there may still be Scottish £1 notes in circulation, they are not Legal Tender, although they are generally accepted by traders. In fact, Scotland has no Legal Tender, that being restricted to notes and coins issued by The BoE. (Rampant Scotland.com).

Teribus - there's no 'may have been the case' about it, it was the case when the Euro was initially adopted by 11 member-states on 1/1/99. So my point remains true - the UK wasn't 'allowed' by anyone to retain Sterling as its currency, it was its right to choose whether to keep Sterling or adopt the Euro. Fortunately, it chose Sterling.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:34 AM

... and what's with this 1000 years? Up to the 1470s eh?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:29 AM

"when the Romans departed. For about 1000 years they painted themselves with woad and ran about fighting."
.,,.

I agree with Mr Conn's demolition of this fatuous comment from one 'Barnacle'. Can just see Alfred the Great or Canute running about covered with woad, can't you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:19 AM

Those are great questions, gnu, which people should be thinking deeply about but may not be. But the answers may not be what you expect. Take sovereignty for example. It is relinquishing some rights to self government in exchange for others. It is quite possible to argue we are in large part rules by big businesses rather than parliament. Fighting that requires coordinating effort across Europe and cannot done by the Uk on its own. In that respect, being in the EU increase sovereignty and leaving decreases it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:26 PM

The people you mostly hear arguing for staying in would convince you to vote out, until you hear the ones arguing for getting out, who would drive you to vote to stay in.

Still, being in the EU guarantees a fair number of workers rights that would be under threat if we get out; and it also guarantees against some future government bringing back capital punishment. And leaving would reinforce Irish Partition by making the border one with the EU as well as with the rest of Ireland. And it looks as if the TTPI may have had its teeth drawn, which would remove one reason for voting to leave.

One personal upside of a vote to leave I suppose would be the likelihood that it might lead to Scotland breaking away, and Great Britain reverting to being an island rather than a nation. But I don't think that's what too many Brexit voters realise is a likely consequence if they win.

So I'll vote to stay, but without much enthusiasm. The EU needs a lot of changes in the direction of greater democratic control - but since they are far far removed from the ones that Cameron was trying to get and failed, we might be able to get them by joining with the people in other countries who would like the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:48 PM

Backwoodsman it was only £1 notes issued by the Bank of England that went out of circulation in the 1980s. Not all British £1 notes. I'm not sure when they went out of circulation but Bank of Scotland and Clydesdale £1 notes lasted much later than that - and RBS £1 notes (though you don't come across them often) are actually still in circulation.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:43 PM

I think E Barnacle is being a bit unfair about the Isles in between the Roman and Norman invasions. The idea that this was just a bunch of disparate peoples continually fighting whilst continental Europe was peaceful surely doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Likewise it ignores the fact that there was art, literature, organised religion and emerging countries way before the Normans arrived. This was the period of St Augustine, the Celtic Church, the Lindisfarne Gospels and Book of Kells, the writings of the Venerable Bede, and of course in particular the emergence of both the Scottish and English kingdoms which were relatively early established European states. European influence in the form of the Danish and Norse invasions were hardly stabilising and the arrival of the Normans hardly brought a civilising force compared with what had been before. The harrowing of the north in particular was savage.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:38 PM

Relinquish sovereignty? Why would anyone do such a thing? Give up the right to hold politicians accountable for their actions? Why would anyone do such a thing? Kowtow to corporations and their political puppets? Why would anyone do such a thing?

My questions are brief but they are to the point.

I don't have a dog in your fight so my opinion doesn't matter in your fight. But, here in Canada, we endure NAFTA and it's a big and vicious dog. Now we face CETA and the TPP. They are even bigger dogs.

Don't let the bastards scare you with gloom and doom bullshit. Get out while the getting is good. Be free of domination from outside your borders. You are Britain. Act like it. Lead the Commonwealth out of these chains.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 05:01 PM

As I have said before, the whole issue hinges on the horrific and ever increasing rates of immigration from the poorer Eastern European countries.
"Free Movement of Labour", was accepted without recourse to the UK electorate ......"to make us more competitive in the global economy", said Mr Blair. That phrase means exploiting cheap labour to benefit the Exchequer. It is impossible to control, just as the EU is impossible to reform.
The problem with that policy is that it negatively affects the poorest people indigenous to UK.... young and unskilled.
They are priced out of the market by the huge influx of immigrants, who can in the main live much more cheaply, as they are here for a relatively short time and do not have the expense of buying or renting a house, or starting a family. Round this area groups of young male immigrants live communally and send much of their wages back to Eastern Europe.

The policy is not only bad for our untrained young people but for the countries the immigrants hail from, as they are starved of workers to construct their own infrastructure and maintain their own public services. The policy has been ill thought out and has contributed to the debacle we see all over Europe, if we don't leave now, we could tie ourselves to a sinking ship.

The opposition to getting out of the EU, among the so called liberal left is purely ideological.......a mad belief in "equality" under all circumstances, regardless of the long term consequences.....Remind you of anything previously discussed ??

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:42 PM

David Mitchell's article

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM

Interesting article recently you David Mitchell, partially inspired by a statement from Richard Dawkins (yes, him!) saying few if any of us are in a position to *know* one way or the other, because the argument is almost entirely about economic forecasts which are unreliable at the best of times, and completely incapable of addressing what the situation will be in, say, 50 years time any way, when the decision will still be in place.. I hear constant wails that we the voters want "the facts"; sorry, but there aren't any, at least in economic terms.   The immigration question isn't much clearer, to be honest. So we are about to determine the future of the country on a national survey of 'gut feelings', which Mitchell and DWkins felt , as I interpret it, to be a total abdication of the responsibility of the Politician class. And I tend to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:37 PM

Most of us can't really grasp all the details of the argument and we vote best we can. One thing that decides me though is the huge amount of money contributed by the uk , much of it used to overpay grossly eu officials.                And there's no reason US posters should,nt chip in, judging by how many Brits comment on US politics !

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:48 PM

The first time the Isles left the rest of Europe, was when the Romans departed. For about 1000 years they painted themselves with woad and ran about fighting.
When the Normans came in, the first thing they did was attempt to suppress the local feuds and create a country. During the successive reigns of Gloriana and James, it actually happened. If the effects of the continent were not real there would have been no Protestant Reformation, English Rennaissance, etc.
Ultimately, you are probably better off staying in.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:10 PM

Thanks to Mad Maggie - Britain has nothing to base her economy on - no industries, no natural resources and an employment situation that spirals ever upward.

Did you mean unemployment? If so, you were right first time.
Employment is increasing here.
Our economy and employment are much better than the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:58 PM

We weren't "allowed" to stay out of the Euro, it's each nation's right to choose whether to adopt the Euro or retain their own currency.

Not true, might have been the case once, but not now. Any country joining now must adopt the Euro as it's currency. That came in with the Lisbon Treaty that wasn't a Treaty because a number of countries raised objections and threatened to use their vetoes, so they called it something else under some sort of backdoor EU scheme and got it through (Gordon Brown could explain it to everybody) - that's the EU for you - about as corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable as can be.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

I am casting my daughter's vote by proxy. If we vote opposite ways - which I doubt - I will be putting two votes in the same box that cancel each other...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:31 PM

I'm voting one way and my husband is voting the other. My sister laughed and said, "You may as well both stay at home. Your votes will cancel eachother out!"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:34 PM

I get really sick of people telling me what to do, what to think and how to act. I am sick of politics there isn't an honest one among them. I wont tell you how to brush your teeth don't tell me how to wash my face and we will get along ok.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM

"Europe is failing economically."
Thanks to Mad Maggie - Britain has nothing to base her economy on - no industries, no natural resources and an employment situation that spirals ever upward.
Ideally, a half-decent, truely democratic political situation might help, but we're further from that than we ever where.
'Bout time Britain swallowed its Xenophobia bullet and made pro[er use of Europe; it really isn't in the position to go it alone.
Just try to imagine a country run by the nice Mr Farrago and another across the Pond run by Despicable Donald, - that should do it.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:12 PM

economically related to the Continent.

Europe is failing economically.
The rest of the world is doing better.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

"You've been allowed to keep the pound note..."

Wrong.

1. The pound-note went out of circulation in 1988 (28 years ago!).
2. We weren't "allowed" to stay out of the Euro, it's each nation's right to choose whether to adopt the Euro or retain their own currency.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:26 AM

I'm glad you brought it up.

When Trump was asked this question it had to be explained to him at length.

Finally he answered "yep they should leave."

Subject: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:04 AM

Brits have a vote coming up later this month (Happy June).

Is this a U.K. vote? Scots and all?

Are Yanks allowed to weigh in.

I think those on the East side of the pond should think seriously about staying economically related to the Continent. You've been allowed to keep the Pound note and Special Relationship and all, you might not want to be associated with US should we select "The Donald" as our chief executive.