Lest we forget: USA aggression

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM

Steve, I think in the beginning, it was estimated that about 50,000 or so people worked in the WTC; but they weren't all there at the time the planes hit. Someone explained to me how the commuter system works in NY - everyone can't go in at the same time, so there were still people on their way to work at 9:00, 9:30. If they HAD all been there, the numbers would have been much higher.

And like Will Rogers, all I know is what I read in the papers. :-)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:28 AM

Troll. Thanks for that. I am old enough to remember 'Star Wars' and always did think it a 'pie in the sky' concept (excuse the pun). I thought it had been discredited (correctly so), and dropped years ago. I was amazed when it reared it's ludicrous head again (new name, same idea). What amazes me even more is the short time span in which they reckon they could have it in place. Speaking as an engineer, I have a fair idea of how long it takes to develope even a fairly simple system. To get the MDS in place so quickly would indicate to me that the research work (and consequently the US government spending) has never stopped. Of course I have no proof, so am only speculating, but how many of us (in any country) have any real idea what our governments are up to, and consequently what we, as tax payers, are paying for.

It saddens me to think what I may be paying for without my knowledge. My guess is, that one way or another, we all have a share in every atrocity that is carried out in the world.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

Just a note about the Marines. 2100 is about a Battalion Landing Team (BLT). They are on permanent duty in the Caribbean and the Mediteranean, and have been, for at least 50 years (my age and stuff lends credence to this). So that doesn't mean a lot.

The second thing is that we still don't know who perpetrated this atrocity. The only peole to take credit for it are the Japanese Ultra Right Wing "Red Army Group." So I am not so convinced that bin Ladin did this. I'm fairly sure he doesn't care about it, probably wishes he did do it, but I would look at Iraq before I'd look at anyone else.

The third thing I've learned is no one gets involved in a war without some form of financial gain. It is always about money. So who stands to make a buck on this? Lots of folks.

Yes lots of people have done something, or nothing, and things have happened that were less than pleasant. But I really struggle with the concept that since my family didn't directly kill someone doesn't make them culpable. In Viet Nam, or I should say on my return home, I always tried to remind those who thought me a savage killer that I pulled the trigger but it was their tax dollar that purchased it. In the criminal world it is akin to hiring an assasin (we've had that discussion before).

I would encourage everyone to set just a little lower on their horse and continue to assist the world in becoming a bit saner space in time. Arlo Guthries Mom is correct about the world.

And last but not least a numerical correction. It was mentioned that the WTC death tole would exceed those killed in Viet Nam. We lost nearly 60,000 in that little fracas and last I looked we weren't that high on the count here. And I mean no denigration of those who were lost in the WTC. I grieve in my own way for all of those who die in government's name. CarolC is correct on that one.

Think I'll stop now
Peace - Steve

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:37 PM

I just read at abcnews.com that the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt is "headed east" and that a group of about 2100 Marines is scheduled to leave North Carolina on Thursday.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:31 PM

Brian. Re: missle defense system. I'd be in favor of it if I thought it would work. As it is, I don't believe it will work in its present configuration and the money to MAKE it work could be used on other, more effective means of missile defense.
For a real good take on how we got saddled with "Star Wars", read the book "Junk Science."

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM

Arne,

You did not say endemic, but you rattled off a list of problems and insinuated that they are as universal in the U.S. as in other nations. Furthermore, your statement about men of God in the U.S. was presented in a manner that gave only a negative viewpoint. As for your other so-called "actual points," they are also so stereotypical that I am not sure that you had any legitimate points to make. And you sure as hell don't seem too anxious to address my "actual point" that the immigration influx to the U.S. speaks for itself in terms of the vast comparative benefits of this nation. They would love you as a contestant on The Weakest Link.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

Is this what you were talking about?

"A SQUAD of muscular British men wearing civilian clothes arrived in Islamabad yesterday on a scheduled flight from Britain carrying diplomatic bags weighed down with what looked to the layman like military equipment.

"Then the Pakistani capital's main airport was all of a sudden closed for two hours to allow military flights, believed to be by the United States Air Force, to land."

Nowhere in this report does it state that US Special Forces are in Pakistan. It says there are flights "believed" to be by the USAF. I will say again, there have been no reports of any deployments as of yet.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:46 PM

AKRick I could not use your link - it said the page was not available.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

Troll. I think broadly speaking we are actually agreeing here. These matters are decided at Government level (rightly so, it's what we elect them for). While I am aware that Roosevelt (and many other Americans) gave as much help as they could at that stage, America did not get fully involved because it was not the overwhelming will of it's Government to do so. Therefore Americas national identity (viewed from this side of the pond) was that they did minimise their involvement at that stage. Perhaps we are going to have to agree to disagree about the phrasing of how to view that one.

Incidently, not England please, Britain! We get bollocked by the Scots, Welsh and Irish if we use 'England' to mean the UK, why should you get away with it. ;->

The point you raised about the Falklands war is a fair one. Broadly, all parties of the house were in agreement and gave their backing. Those against were few and not drawn on party lines. So individually, NO not ALL, but partywise YES it was fully supported.

I'd still like to know where we stand with this missile defence system though, because I sure as hell don't feel like I'll be protected.

Anyway can't talk further tonight as I'm away from the PC now. I'll check back tomorrow.

Take care

Brian.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM

Brian, there was a strong feeling in this country that the US should not involve itself in another "European" war. Roosevelt and those who believed that we had to become involved did everything in their power to help England until the recalcitrant members of congress could be convinced that it was our fight too. This is hardly doing"all it could to minimise it's involvement for as long as possible."
Given our system of government, we were as involved as we could be.
Was the Falklands War backed by ALL of the Commons?

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:41 PM

Date: 19-Sep-01 - 12:23 PM Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Troll (who can cut and paste with the best of them)

I, for one, have NEVER said that the US was not wrong on ocassion. My country has made some foolish and, on ocassion, deadly errors in judgement. It happens. Live with it. Now lets look at a few points: 1) The most important terrorist goal -as stated by bin Laden- is the death of ALL Americans. He has other demands but they pale into insignificance beside this one. 2) The Saudi government invited the us to set up the base there to help protect Saudi interests from Saddam. Bin Ladens gripe there is with the Saudis, not the US. 3) Saddam Hussein agreed to the sanctions when he surrendered. The sanctions were to stay in place until such time as it could be verified that he had ceased to manufacture weapons of mass destruction. He has refused to allow that verification. We gave our word that the sanctions would stay in place until the conditions of surrender were carried out. We are keeping our word. Iraq is allowed to sell a certain amount of oil so that humanitarian supplies may be purchased -food medicine etc.- but this is not being done. The Iraqui government is using the money to build up their army; we are even told that they may have nuclear devices. In the meantime, their people starve while the money for their food goes to rebuild Saddams army. 4) It is the job of intelligence to de-stabilize inimical foreign governments when that suits our purposes and the same is true of the intelligence service of any government. 5)IF an explicit warning >I?was given three months prior to the atrocity, then heads should roll. Publicly. 6)"It is tantamount to sabotage to elucidate the role that the Bush's have had in creating foreign military "mad men" and then feel the need to show them who is boss once they feel "sovereign"." This has been pointed in many of the news media, and, so far as I know, no news editors have been executed to date. (One can always hope...) 7)"It is treasonous to suggest that the Bush team would sabotage alternative energy and increase our reliance on oil and the middle east." See # 6 I see no need to address your other points since they are not of an objective nature. I think I agree with your heart, mind and hand post BTW.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:32 PM

This is a link to a history of American involvement with Pakistan and Afgahnistan. Useful reading and an indication of what will need to be addressed if any worthwhile action against terrorism is to be contemplated.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

Kim C

I was hoping to avoid writing it all out, but ...

www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/19/wta1319.xml

Hope that's right. I've gotten this far without learning to do the blue clickies ... guess it's time.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

The lynch mob has a right to justice too. [to be held accountable for the crime of lynching] Patriotism is challenged by anyone who dares ask a question concerning both sides of a conflict in times of great suffering. I have yet to read anyone saying that America is evil or bad ... except for bin Laden and the justifiablly angry who claim this is what others have "actually" said here by looking at both sides.

The following post inspired many to claim the author had a drug problem, was not a patriot, was an enemy of the state ect.. Get a grip people. People of insight will be needed to defend our country as well as those who are crack shots. ........................................................ Sucking up to the fervent wave of patriotism is the safe thing to do in America now. To express any doubts is to bring the wrath of being ostracised as a traitor upon ones self. There is a fundamentalist certainty that seeing both sides to the conflict is EVIL. There is only one side , our side.

There is only one demand of the terrorists that the American people are told en masse. The demand to destroy freedom and all Americans.

Even if Americans are told of the demand to remove the military base in Saudi Arabia it will not threaten our patriotism. Even if told of the $38,000,000,000 debt relief Pakistan wants in return for their "cooperation and [perhaps] an end to the terrorist attacks", Bush knows best.

Even if we are told of the 500,000 infant - teenage fatalities in Iraq as a result of the Gulf War and sanctions , it will not deter America's patriotism.

Even if we understand that the missle attack on Sudan without any warning despite being a nation in which we are on diplomatic terms it makes no difference.

Even if our policy of CIA destabiliztion of governments and installation of puppet shahs, generals or "kings" is understood, patriotism will be unaffected.

Even if we are told that an explicit warning was given 3 months prior to the attack that at least allowed investors to sell short first, patriotism will not be deterred.

Suspension of civil liberties is to be expected in times of declared war against ...25 countries.

It is tantamount to sabotage to elucidate the role that the Bush's have had in creating foreign military "mad men" and then feel the need to show them who is boss once they feel "sovereign".

It is treasonous to suggest that the Bush team would sabotage alternative energy and increase our reliance on oil and the middle east.

It is rude to challenge the legitimately of the elected heir apparent and new Prince of Power George W Bush. It is only a coincidence that the same 6 faces of the Gulf war are in power again.

Our great communicator needs his handlers to explain and change the meaning of his words to the world and America but he is now reported as being a wonderful speaker.

No there will be no threat to American patriotism. Neither facts ,wisdom or compassion will erase the outrage of becoming innocent victims in the attack of our homeland.

America is not naieve, our appointed leaders and cable TV tells us exactly what to think (with few exceptions such as Frontline PBS).

The growing mantra here is "you don't need to know" . Everything will be handled on a need to know basis. No journalists , no traitorous dissent , no questions. Suck it up , bite the bullet , fall on the grenade. Now is the time for true grit. "Were gonna trackem down,smokem out and bringem to justice dead or alive."

Its time to shut up and follow the party line , after all this is why we fought communism. America is a great nation , why else would everyone want to live here ? America is also the great prize for those who wish to rule her. ......................................................

Lets be carefull and treat this country and its citizens the liberty to think freely.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:44 AM

Captain America (presumably) claimed I said that there were things "being endemic in this nation". I did not. Nor did I say that "all men of God" were siding with the loathesome Falwell and Robertson. And then he chooses to dismiss the _actual_ points I made, yet he accuses _me_ of "need[ing] to learn the difference between actual facts and gross exaggeration." I suggest that he remove the beam in his eye before he asks me to remove the speck in mine.

-- Arne Langsetmo

P.S. to another: In some counties in Florida, there was never more than _one_ tally, and that solely by machine. But even the U.S. Supreme Court recognised that Florida law deems there to be many valid votes amongst the undervotes (and overvotes, I should add). The newspaper recounts show Gore winning under some perfectly reasonable criteria (by Florida law). The fact is that the U.S. Supreme Court, in stopping the counts, caused the very Constitutional violation that they were supposedly so concerned with as a _potentiality_, _before the fact_, to actually happen: Identical votes in different counties were counted under _quite_ different standards, some by hand, others only by machine. The "remedy" they came up with _caused_ the very "problem" that so "concerned" them. You can reach your own conclusion then as to what they were in fact trying to do. My advice for those that are interested: Look at the unusually candid explanation given by Scalia in his opinion WRT the Dec. 9th stay order.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

Troll. I have read OUR history, and I have heard of Lend-Lease, but that isn't the same as a formal declaration of war. America, despite repeated pleas, did all it could to minimise it's involvement for as long as possible.

I did not in any way imply that your rage and anguish is in any way unjustified, but the wrong response to it will be unjustied. My comment about the election result was in no way related to my previous posting. I only read your comments after I posted. My comment about the count was intended light heartedly. No offence was intended. Indeed, it would be a great stretch of the imagination to go so far. I fear your imagination was already stretching much further than mine. As I said, no offence was intended.

I was looking further afield than Mudcat when I made my comments about whitewashing history. As viewed from the UK, America does not appear to accept criticism well, but as I said 'perhaps it just has a lousy PR department'. I will re-emphasise how I finished my first posting as it was intended as a balanced comment.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:43 AM

AKRick, I checked out the link, and did not see the report of which you speak. There was nothing in the Telegraph that we're not getting here in the US.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Brian< go study your own history. Have you ever heard of Lend-Lease? It was because of that the Britain was able to survive until the US did join the war formally.
Gore got THREE recounts and still couldn't get a majority. This has all been hashed out nearly a year ago. To imply that our rage and anguish is somehow unjust because of an election requires a stretch of the imagination that I find myself incapable of>
BTW I have been fairly active on the forum but I must have missed the post where someone said that America was incapable of doing wrong. Will someone more knowledgible than I please provide a link?
Thank you.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:16 AM

Troll that may be so, but over here (UK) it is normal to finish the count before declaring the winner.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:12 AM

I don't know whether Guest Edward/Euphemia is a real person, but the points he raised are valid. When viewed from this side (UK) of the pond, America, as a nation does appear to be naive and/or arrogant. Or perhaps it just has a lousy PR department.

I too saw reports that America believes that retaliation is justified 'even if it brings about the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians'. The USA is getting almost unanimous sympathy and support right now, but go down that route and that support will disappear.

It has been said here that America needs help right now. The UK has an expert search and rescue team. They go on immediate standby, and offer their help, when there is a major disaster (natural or otherwise) anywhere in the world. Their particular area of expertise is locating and rescuing people from collapsed buildings. They went on standby last Tuesday, within 24 hours they were stood down because America said it didn't want outside help. There's people dying under what is left of the WTC and they don't want expert help. JESUS CHRIST!

This thread was started by someone who dared to criticize the USA, they immediately got called a flamer. Why? They may not have used a name, but they didn't do anything other than raise valid points. I doubt if the same points raised by a member would not have prompted the same response. Sympathy for the victims of this dispicable act is justifed. Re-writing history to whitewash the USA as perfect is not.

The USA did attempt to wreck the Scottish woollen industry because we dared to buy a few bananas from independant growers, whilst continuing to 'stand shoulder to shoulder' with us. Over the weekend, we heard an American crowing on about how the USA stood shoulder to shoulder with Britain during the blitz. Oh really? The blitz took place in 1940 the USA stood back and watched, and joined the war a year later.

Could somebody explain to me just how this wonderous misile defence system that the USA proposes is going to work. Do they propose to blow up nuclear warheads 'harmlessly' in the atmosphere, or perhaps shoot them down where they'll do 'minimal' damage - like on Canada or Europe or in the ocean. Gee, thanks guys, I'm glad you're on our side!

America can rightly claim credit for a great deal, but not everything. It is also guilty of a great deal, and should accept the criticism that goes with it.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 07:52 AM

GUEST Euphemia, I could be wrong but I believe that the count in Florida made by the newspapers several months after the election was over showed that Bush did win the majority of the legally cast votes in Florida. Under our election system, this gave him a majority of the votes and hence the election.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 07:42 AM

Check www.portal.telegraph.co.uk. (British paper). Tim Butcher is the correspondent on the ground in Quetta,Pakistan

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:51 AM

Guest Edward: are you a real person?

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

Arne needs to learn the difference between actual facts and gross exaggeration. Most of the things that you rattled off as being endemic in this nation are actually very limited. Your strained logic tries to refute my point, for example, by stereotyping all men of God based on a couple of publicity-hungry shysters. The ultimate proof of your stupidity is the fact that the U.S. is currently welcoming large numbers of immigrants from ALL of the very nations that you imply are as good off as us. If we "ain't" the best game in town, then why are so many people dying (often literally) to come here? If my pride in that overwhelming FACT is going to be interpreted as arrogance, then I guess that we will have to change the name from Webster's to Arne's dictionary.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:37 PM

AKRick, I don't think that newswire is correct. As far as I know, the military is on alert, but no one has been officially deployed yet.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Euphemia
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:27 PM

Bill D wrote: >..we are just trying to comprehend how ***ANYONE** can process reality so grotesquely as to think we deserved THAT....innocent civilians destroyed en masse to make some arcane socio/political/religious point!!!

Well, I've just read in a reputable newspaper that an opinion poll shows that two-thirds of American citizens believe that retaliation is justified 'even if it brings about the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians'.

So, if it's ok for Americans to do it ...

This doesn't mean _I_ believe it's ok, nor that I don't deplore the attacks, nor that I haven't wept for the dead.
But my breath is taken away by the sheer naivete and/or arrogance of Americans who honestly believe their country can do no wrong, that it represents a shining beacon of freedom and democracy etc etc.
Have you already forgotten that your current President is only in office because he got the recounts stopped while he was still winning?
Have you forgotten, or didn't you know, that only last year you, "our gallant allies that have always stood shoulder to shoulder with us etc etc", threatened to wipe out the Scottish woollen industry? Because we were trying to help out the small independent banana farmers of the Caribbean who were threatened with the loss of, not only their livelihoods, but the economy of whole islands, by the giant fruit corporations that had given financial support to Clinton?
What was done to you was wrong - but because you're human beings, with all the failings of human beings, not because America is somehow a better country than any other.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Edward
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

Bill D wrote: >..we are just trying to comprehend how ***ANYONE** can process reality so grotesquely as to think we deserved THAT....innocent civilians destroyed en masse to make some arcane socio/political/religious point!!!

Well, I've just read in a reputable newspaper that an opinion poll shows that two-thirds of American citizens believe that retaliation is justified 'even if it brings about the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians'.

So, if it's ok for Americans to do it ...

This doesn't mean _I_ believe it's ok, nor that I don't deplore the attacks, nor that I haven't wept for the dead.
But my breath is taken away by the sheer naivete and/or arrogance of Americans who honestly believe their country can do no wrong, that it represents a shining beacon of freedom and democracy etc etc.
Have you already forgotten that your current President is only in office because he got the recounts stopped while he was still winning?
Have you forgotten, or didn't you know, that only last year you, "our gallant allies that have always stood shoulder to shoulder with us etc etc", threatened to wipe out the Scottish woollen industry? Because we were trying to help out the small independent banana farmers of the Caribbean who were threatened with the loss of, not only their livelihoods, but the economy of whole islands, by the giant fruit corporations that had given financial support to Clinton?
What was done to you was wrong - but because you're human beings, with all the failings of human beings, not because America is somehow a better country than any other.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM

Well, Sophocleese, it is my sincere hope that you live in Canada! One should live where one is happiest!

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: sophocleese
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM

Personally I prefer Canada to the US. I get annoyed when particularly Canadian ways of doing things come under fire from Americans because they are not American ways of doing things. I like having Health Care and fewer guns.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

Re: GUEST,Captain America

who says that "Our Democracy may not be perfect, but the last time that i checked, it was still the best game in town."

Not necessarily so. You might ask for _who_ it is such a bastion of 'freedom and opportunity'.

The United States has one of the highest income disparities of the developed world, and many in the United States don't even have the medical coverage that _all_ those lucky enough to live in many European states and Canada have.

For some groups in the U.S., infant mortality lags far behind other developing states, and even approcahes rates seen only in the third world.

And right now, we seem intent on destroying some of those sole remaining beacons of the wisdom of the Founders, willing to forget the protections of our rather unique Bill of Rights, in a possibly misguided effort for more "security".

One person has been shot dead in this land of "freedom and opportunity" for having the poor judgement of _looking_ somewhat Arabic (he wasn't), and that is probably just the start.

_Our_ preachers have been saying that we _asked_ for this precisely due to our exercising and demonstrating our freedoms, thus (in their mind) calling down the wrath of God on us.

Yes, there is a difference between pride and arrogance. I hope you find it soon.

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM

Who is the brighest beacon of freedom and opportunity in the world then. Our Democracy may not be perfect, but the last time that i checked, it was still the best game in town. Methinks that some of you seem to revel in misunderstanding the vast difference between pride and arrogance.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the tidbit on the Isle of Man.

I didn't say that Iceland was first; nor did I say that democracy in Greece was ideal (but if the comments of the two posters on the limited sense of Grecian democracy are to be taken to heart, I'd point out that we had similar problems with the "democracy" we "invented" in 1776).

My point was that too many people in the U.S. have this ides that we are the "the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world", as one person would have us believe. It is this kind of thinking that gets us into trouble, perhaps _more_ that any resentments stirred up by any actual perceived advantages we have in such respects. Our arrogance and hubris, and our insisting that "our way" is the "right way" -- when others have found similar or identical civil structures, or even other solutions that they find more acceptable to their beliefs -- is certainly not helpful in creating dialogue and understanding. Yet beyond Bush's _prior_ "It's my way or the highway" approach, now such as Cheney and Wolfowitz seem to be saying "Accede now to my boast, or you'll soo be toast". We are _demanding_ that other coutries comply without compromise to _our_ demands, or they will be attacked (one wag I know suggested that the state of Florida forthwith be "ended" [in the words of Wolfowitz] for of their years of "support" to the terrorists living down there). And what will be the end of that line of thought?

"Where have all the flowers gone. . . ."

Sing it through with me, folks.

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 08:14 PM

Kipling's Recessional, referred to halfway from here to the beginning of this thread, is set to Folkingham in The Cyber Hymnal, with Melita as an alternative; personally I suspect Melita is better known.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:48 PM

I guess my point is that if someone wanted to deliver a weapon of mass destructon, and we had a missile defence shield, they could very easily find another way to deliver their weapon. So the shield would not serve to deter, or to protect. It would only make aggressors look for other alternatives. We saw a very compelling example of this on Tuesday.

We need to put our resourses into things that work. Not things that only serve to make us feel more secure.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:32 PM

No. I don't think so, Carol. No single form of defense is going to be adequate to protect us from terrorists. Were a foreign enemy to launch a missile filled with germs, for example, and strike a major city. Would you say, "Gee, I thought they'd use an airplane?"

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 08:19 AM

I bumped into this quote from Martin Luther King, "The old eye for an eye philosophy ends up leaving everybody blind." Also, I just saw in a British newswire that US Special Forces had landed in Pakistan. Cover your eyes.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:50 PM

Ok. I understand. So I guess the ease with which someone could deliver a nuclear device to a target without launching it as a missile from another country if they really wanted to, makes the missile shield concept pretty irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:02 PM

I used to be a missle shield proponent, prior to Tuesday.

Short of building an inpenatrable "dome" over the continental USA, it's a waste of time given the destructive capabilities of even just one warhead getting through. One nucelar warhead's destructive capabilities would be vastly more extensive than what we saw on Tuesday in New York.

I think now, the money and resources that would have been committed to a project like this, would be much better spent eradicting the terrorist threats in the U.S.A. and elsewhere, which could mean not only destroying the terrorists' bases of operation and as many members of those cells as possible, but also through more humanitarian efforts toward 3rd world countries where many of these terrorist ideaolgies first take route. Both things need to be done.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

Well, Carol C., it won't! Does that unbaffle you? If not, please let me know and I'll try to be more clear about it. **B**

A missile defense shield will be designed to protect us from missiles fired from other countries.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:16 AM

Coming a bit late to this thread...

DougR, could you explain to me, please, how a missile defence shield that is supposed to protect us from missiles being launched from other countries and traveling to us through the sky can protect us from nuclear devices that are carried to their target by a person who is carrying them in a suitcase?

I know I'm not very quick on the uptake sometimes, but I have to admit that one's got me baffled.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:17 AM

Athenian democracy was a pretty narrow sort of democracy, true enough. As was the slave-owning women-excluding democracy of the new American republic.

Bragging competitively about the past is not very helpful. The intersting thing is to try to understand how societies can change so that they become better and freer. Or worse and more enslaved, which can also happen.

There was a time when the Islamic world was a far more tolerant and open and cultured society in many ways than Europe.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:50 PM

Ann, the Greek "democracy" was restricted to Athenian-born men of property. Women had no vote and, in fact,were not allowed to leave the house alone.
The bulk of the inhabitants were salves who did all the work, thus allowing Plato, Socrates, etc to propound their philosophical theories to the well-to-do young men of the city.
Iceland did indeed have a form of parliamentary government (the Althing) early on, but I believe you'll find that the oldest parliament is the House of Keys on the Isle of Man.

troll ***I love obscure historical facts.***

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM

Durn, Kim. I missed that program and I would have loved to see it. I went to the video store yesterday thinking I might pick up a video about that country but didn't have anything.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:33 PM

Says Amos: Let me remind you that there is only one nation on this planet which was actually conceived in liberty, built as best as could be imagined to protect liberty and to balance liberty so that it was widespread.

Actually, no. For some strange reason some folks in the U.S. think that they invented Constitutions, and hold the patent on democracy. Not true. In fact, Iceland beat them to the punch by quite some time on these (not to mention the Greek democracies). And the idea that balancing "liberty" without balancing opporunity would seem quaint to some.

Says Amos: There is only one nation on this planet that prays regularly to the Infinite that its good be "crowned with brotherhood". That publically commits itself to be the land of the free. These are not trifles or hypocritical gestures, no matter how short we fall of these aims.

Actually, that's not true (in either respect). More rather provincial and hubristic thinking. But were it true that we pray "regularly to the Infinite that its good be 'crowned with brotherhod'", I'm still not sure that's a feather in its cap. There are plenty of places where people fervently pray for what is "good". They sometimes have a different opinion of what "good" should be sought.

Says Amos: I am not trying to retreat into jingoistic palliatives, here; I am trying to point out what it is that gives the United States its flavor and informs its decisions, for the most part.

True to some extent. But the jingoism here (or at least the blinkered take on the rest of the world) _is_ apparent here. While we pride ourselves on what we think important, and exalt these things, they come at a price. I don't say that the price isn't worth it; just that others have reached different decisions, and some are not the worse off for it.

Yet to me, the recent events have shown perhaps an ominous willingness on our part to throw those very freedoms and those very ideals away, when times get hard. Perhaps we say the words with more fervour nowadays, bt I'm not sure we really exalt these things as much as we think we do.

Sincerely,

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: heric
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:23 PM

DougR: It doesn't change the analysis much. Severe measures to curtail the inapproriate acts are still warranted. But it clarifies the need not to misdirect aggression, political or otherwise, against the larger groups which the terrorists purport to represent. While it seems at first that cooperation with those groups after a terrorist act serves the terrorists, understanding (if it's true), that the terrorists' true intent is to foster divisiveness, that they don't *want* anything but destruction itself, leads to a conclusion that at first seems couter-intuitive (or at least it was to me.) Mr. McGrath states it well.

Kim C: We sure do have a problem, don't we. Afghanistan is populated with hardened people, to put it mildly. If moral resolve ends up dictating that we must attack the "nation" of Afghanistan (such as it is), well, . . . No video, missile-cam couch-potato spectator war, this one.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM

On PBS last night we watched Arthur Kent's program about Afghanistan 20 years ago, vs. today. It was pretty stunning. Afghanistan at one time was a fairly liberal country - women worked and went to school and had real careers. When the Taliban came to power, that was no more. The playing of music and flying of kites is against the law. Kites. Now why in the sam hill would flying a kite be a violation of some religious belief?

Opium processors and sellers are allowed to operate as long as they pay taxes to the Taliban, but no music, and no kites.

It's not about religion. It's about absolute power behind the guise of religion, and about who can make some money off it and who can't.

There is a small resistance but they have few resources, and most of the other people are just too scared to do anything.

There's a force of Religiou Police who will arrest and imprison anyone at the drop of a hat.

The people in charge there are despots, and the people who live there pay the price. It seems to be that way with several other countries, too.

It makes me very sad.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:33 AM

RE; Star Wars. Reagan was sold a bill of goods by Edward Teller. Read the book; "Junk Science". It tells the whole story.
I believe that Reagan was sincere in his belief that Star Wars was the answer to our defense needs. He based his belief on the word of one of the worlds pre-eminent scientists. He didn't come up with the idea.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:24 AM

Doug, a short time ago, there was program on tv, I forget which channel, that had a group of scientists who worked on the Star Wars thing. They all agreed it was a multi million dollar boondoggle. They said it did not work because it CAN NOT work. There are insumountable problems with it. In my opinion, it was one of Reagans "feel good, do nothing" programs. The uninformed loved it.

Seems to me that this latest attack proves once and for all that Star Wars is obsolete. We are guarding the walls, but, the enemy is inside the fort!

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

Trying to understand why something has happened something isn't the same as justifying it. That's a simple enough idea, but it seems remarkably hard for people to understand it sometimes.

If you want to stop something happening again, it helps to understand why it happened in the first place.

If a fuse blows because there is some wiring fault, and you just fix the fuse with something like a nail that won't blow you are likely to end up with the building burning down.

And blaming the ordinary people of Afghanistan for the faults of the people who run the place is a bit like blaming the inmates of Auschwitz for the crimes of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Fiolar
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM

A little news item which has hardly been noticed. Less than four months ago the the US donated $43m to Afghanistan in aid. It consisted of $5m in food, 65,000 tons of wheat and $10m for food security programmes administered by non-governmental organisations. It followed donations of $114m the previous year. (item courtesy of the Guardian). Talk about biting the hand that feeds. In this case, the terrorists seem to have swallowed the whole arm.