BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:17 PM

Sorry - Repeated question due to poor internet response. Still valid though. I don't think I ever said that you have rattled any sabres, Keith. Did I?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:17 PM

1. "Dave and Rag, You have nothing to criticise so you make stuff up"


2. "I did not equate you both"


3. Is it me who cannot understand the written language ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:14 PM

BTW, you say

As I said Dave,
"Dave and Rag, You have nothing to criticise so you make stuff up.
We have never rattled sabres, we have just put current knowledge before you."

I cannot find that quote. Did you make it up or were you mistaken?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:08 PM

We have never rattled sabres, we have just put current knowledge before you.

Did I ever say that you had rattled sabres, Keith. or did you just make that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:05 PM

Remember the whole post Rag.
I only quoted the first two lines.
I did not equate you both.
I left your bit out because I was replying to Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:15 PM

I do wish you would equate me with Dave the Gnome. I have said previously we have met, shared a pint, I've enjoyed his company and his singing and hopefully will do so again.

However we are NOT joined at the hip, he is more than capable of forming his own views. An intelligent, articulate man who does not require me to back him up.

Unlike some on here who couldn't wipe their own arse without directions.

Just in case you don't understand that Professor that is you.

Mod, I don't care if you delete this, KAOH is a wanker of the first degree, and yes I have had a pint or three,

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:04 PM

Jim, you shouted this in red capitals.
The crap review was written by historian David Crane - ONE OF THE "REAL" HISTORIANS YOU PUT UP IN DEFENCE OF YOUR ARGUMENT WAY BACK IN THE EARLY DAYS

It is made up.
Untrue.
A lie.

A decent person would retract and apologise, in red capitals.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:01 PM

As I said Dave,
"Dave and Rag, You have nothing to criticise so you make stuff up.
We have never rattled sabres, we have just put current knowledge before you."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:46 PM

Dave and Rag, You have nothing to criticise so you make stuff up.

What stuff have I made up then, Keith? Or did you just make that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:14 PM

Jim, here is another veteran.

Most veterans rejected the 'poets' view'. One old soldier, named Henry Mellersh, declared in 1978 that he wholeheartedly rejected the notion that the war was 'one vast, useless, futile tragedy, worthy to be remembered only as a pitiable mistake'.
Instead, wrote Mellersh: 'I and my like entered the war expecting an heroic adventure and believing implicitly in the rightness of our cause; we ended greatly disillusioned as to the nature of the adventure, but still believing that our cause was right and we had not fought in vain.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2339189/MAX-HASTINGS-Sucking-Germans-way-remember-Great-War-heroes-Mr-Cameron.html#ixzz3suChnmXm

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

"Fisher Act of 1918 is irrelevant to the point being discussed."
Nioo it isn't you eejit - you suggested Tommy had to be 15 when he left school - he could have been twelve
Any luck with Uncle Gerry's details yet
Any chance you are going to respond to my points - you said you and Keith were good at it.
I'll take that as a no to all
Snide comments about what Tommy saw have become par of the course for you
Shall I include Harry Patch's or those who also reported it happening that I have to contact?
You get slimier and slimier in your jingoism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 12:57 PM

So Jim, the only historian who supports your views is Hastings.
You have failed to produce any quote he has made that supports you.
Here is an actual quote.
Are these your view Jim?

"The fact that Britain sacrificed so many lives to prevent the triumph of Germany's militarists should be a matter of pride to those men's modern descendants, not grounds for ministers to take refuge in empty platitudes
That view (believing implicitly in the rightness of our cause) was far more widely held by Mellersh's contemporaries than the 'futility' vision of Owen, Sassoon and their kin."

"It seems hugely important that in preparing for this centenary commemoration, our Government and national institutions should seek to explain to a new generation that World War I was critical to the freedom of Western Europe.
Far from dying in vain, those who perished in the King's uniform between 1914 and 1918 made as important a contribution to our privileged, peaceful lives today as did their sons in World War II."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2339189/MAX-HASTINGS-Sucking-Germans-way-remember-Great-War-heroes-Mr-Cameron.html#ixzz3su6dK6Je

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 12:43 PM

GUEST - 29 Nov 15 - 10:23 AM - hello Raggy I wondered when you would pop up again, given up and got confused as to whether it was Pendant or Pedant?

"I've checked the fields upon fields of white slabs and as far as I can tell, they are still dead.

Presumably someone is responsible?"

Yes Raggy - the enemy and as things turn out there are fields of Black Crosses far more of those than the white slabs you looked at and they too are all still dead and our forefathers, British, Commonwealth & Empire, Frenchmen and Belgians were responsible for their deaths - you see Raggy there was a war going on a war that neither our forefathers, British, Commonwealth & Empire, Frenchmen and Belgians were responsible for, and in war Raggy men die.

The Balfour Education Act that came into force in 1902

Fisher Act of 1918 is irrelevant to the point being discussed.

As for ship loads of 12 and 13 year olds being bundled off to war - that is total bunk the example you gave was one of two so please just for once in your rantings try and inject just a hint of perspective. The boy who was present at the Battle of the Somme was physically truly remarkable for the time - how many 12 year olds even today do you know that are 6' 2"tall requirement for the Army of the day was 5' 3" with no birth certificates no wonder he passed the physical requirements.

The other thing that neither yourself Jom or you Raggy seem to be able to grasp is the fact that when in 1914 all those volunteers came flooding forwards the Army couldn't do anything with them so they were told to go home and await their call up so someone who volunteered in 1914 didn't just walk through a door to be marched off issued with a uniform put through basic training to be then given a gun and packed off to the front. In 1914 and early 1915 the priority was to get the reserves and the territorials back into uniform and up to speed.

If Tommy Kenny's family have his service records then Jom I would advise you to get back in touch with them and then you could really take a swipe at the British Government, Army and establishment and press for a full investigation of these murders witnessed by Tommy Kenny - Now I suggest that course of action knowing full well that you will not lift your arse out of your comfy chair in Milton Malby - because you know it will lead to nothing as there were no summary executions - your Tommy Kenny story seems to change all the time - in fact every time you are drip fed information by me with regard to its inconsistencies. Not very credible at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:28 AM

Hang on, I'll just pop over to Northern France.

Right, back now.

I've checked the fields upon fields of white slabs and as far as I can tell, they are still dead.

Presumably someone is responsible?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:25 AM

"Would you call a period of three years not long left school?"
"Under the Balfour Education Act of 1902 Tommy would have left school at 15"
"The year 1918 saw the introduction of the Education Act 1918, commonly also known as the Fisher Act as it was devised by Herbert Fisher. The act enforced compulsory education from 5–14"
Up to the passing of the Fisher act the school leaving age was twelve.
He lied about his age - I have no idea what age he was when he left school
Lads were being shipped out to fight on The Somme as early as 13 years old.
What convoluted machinations are you working on now to prove a veteran a liar?
There's no depths you won't sink to to denigrate these men, is there?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:37 AM

"Where have I claimed that I can find the record of all servicemen with ease?"
Yes you have - you dismissed Tommy's service record on the basis that you couldn't find it - what other reason could you possibly have given
You actually gave (four, I think) soldiers of that name - made up, apparently.
You have blown it at the first fence - you are a bluffing load of bollocks
Z - minus on all accounts, I;'m afraid
"Yet Tommy Kenny could tell you absolutely nothing about the detail "
I didn't say he couldn't
His family has his war record - we recorded him at the request of them - we didn't bother covering what they already knew - it was an interview on his experiences.
And you still haven't responded to the questions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:23 AM

" So now we add a bit more meat to the bones:

1: Under the Balfour Education Act of 1902 Tommy would have left school at 15. Would you call a period of three years not long left school? To enlist in the British Army of the day as a Regular you had to be 18 - you could not be sent overseas until you were 19. As a Territorial part-timer you could join at 17, but the 19 year restriction on overseas service still applied. Now if he was "conned into joining" the Army it means he was not conscripted and according to Jom nobody volunteered after March 1916. The war started in August 1914 Jom so it looks as though your Tommy Kenny if he served in France between August 1914 and March 1916 must have joined the Army in peacetime"

No, not exactly denying it could happen. But if you look at Section 4 you will find that most underage volunteers managed to get in during 1914/15 something that you seem to overlook.

One more thing, regarding Tommy Kenny, some people know that about 70% of Army records were destroyed during WW2. Thus your argument about not finding pertinent records could be a little misleading to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:53 AM

"You claim you can find the record of all servicemen with ease, and on that basis, you have denied the service record of Tommy Kenny"

Where have I claimed that I can find the record of all servicemen with ease?

Where have I denied the service record of Tommy Kenny? I did some research and found the existence of the service records of the only six Tommy Kenny's on record as having served in the British Army during the First World War so what are you prattling about?

By the way Jom did your Uncle Gerry tell you what regiment he served in? Did he ever mention where he served? Ever asked yourself the question why "your" Tommy Kenny didn't. One thing is for sure Jom if ever I had seen an officer or a military policeman carry-out a summary execution of anyone serving with me then the following information would be seared in my memory:

1: Who was executed
2: Who executed them
3: Where it happened
4: When it happened

In short every damn detail of the murder

Yet Tommy Kenny could tell you absolutely nothing about the detail - and you swallowed it hook-line-and-sinker.

"would be grateful for your assistance in confirming them" No you wouldn't - use your own money to do your own research it is after all your family in which I have no interest whatsoever.

But I see you are now trying to deflect things away from WWI

Good article GHOST don't know why you posted it - I have never denied that boys lied about their age to get into the Forces in time of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:41 AM

The youngest British soldier on record was 12 years old when he enlisted and Thirteen when he fought on The Somme
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:27 AM

Underage Soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:14 AM

Terrytoon - if you're still there
You claim you can find the record of all servicemen with ease, and on that basis, you have denied the service record of Tommy Kenny
My family includes several with service records - would be grateful for your assistance in confirming them
My Uncle Gerry (Carroll) served in Europe during WW2, and was decorated for exceptional bravery under fire.
He was later tried and convicted by the army for refusing to go to Greece to train fascists during the Civil War there.
Who was he, where did he serve, what was he awarded his medal for and what regiment was he in?
There - you have three times the amount of information than you had on Tommy - should be a piece of cake for someone with your super-human skills.
More to come, when you reel off that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:02 AM

Never mind Keith Jom what about the repetitious and somewhat disturbing nature of your postings.

You have failed to comprehend what Paxman narrated in his programmes. You have failed to comprehend what was actually said by Sir Max Hastings FrHistS as you desperately cling to those dearly held myths of yours. There is no point in providing you with any information you simply choose to ignore it irrespective of source and veracity - you mentally stick your fingers in your ears and go Laa Laa Laa.

We have dismissed the works of commenting historians who are not experts and specialists on the study of the First World War as they have not done the research. We have dismissed the earlier works of some historians whose works and conclusions have been discredited in the light of new information that was not available to them at the time they published their work.

"you have called the men who fought liars because what they say doesn't fit."

No we believe the mass of evidence provided by the those who most certainly and verifiably fought that makes no mention of the monstrous allegations that you have made.

"The people of Britain have always known how badly the war was led and what a useless bloodbath it was"

On whose authority do you speak for the people of Britain you ignorant arrogant scrambler? You have no right at all to make such a claim.

Tommy Kenny - the man we recorded for three days (me, John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr and his grandson Colin, a leading virologist in Queen Mary's Hospital, Paddington at the time) told us exactly how it was - being conned into joining in workless Liverpool having not long left school, the brutality of the officers, the mud, the executions..... and eventually having the outer parts of hes ears blown off by when a piece of artillery misfired.

So now we add a bit more meat to the bones:

1: Under the Balfour Education Act of 1902 Tommy would have left school at 15. Would you call a period of three years not long left school? To enlist in the British Army of the day as a Regular you had to be 18 - you could not be sent overseas until you were 19. As a Territorial part-timer you could join at 17, but the 19 year restriction on overseas service still applied. Now if he was "conned into joining" the Army it means he was not conscripted and according to Jom nobody volunteered after March 1916. The war started in August 1914 Jom so it looks as though your Tommy Kenny if he served in France between August 1914 and March 1916 must have joined the Army in peacetime.

2: "Workless Liverpool"? Here is a description of Liverpool covering the period 1900 to 1916:

"During the first part of the 20th century Liverpool continued to expand, pulling in immigrants from Europe. In 1903 an International Exhibition took place in Edge Lane. In 1904, the building of the Anglican Cathedral began, and by 1916 the three Pier Head buildings, including the Liver Building, were complete. This period marked the pinnacle of Liverpool's economic success, when it regarded itself as the "second city" of the British Empire"

3: Your response - all lies - all made up - Tommy never served in the forces.

Sorry Jom but it was not me who interviewed and recorded Tommy Kenny's story in such a way that it could not be verified that was down to you, John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr and his grandson Colin all of whom failed to ask Tommy Kenny the right questions. Your approach to research and attention to detail is appallingly slapdash - it was YOU and your "team" that rendered the disservice to Tommy Kenny by ensuring that his story could not be checked or verified, not myself or Keith A.

4: the brutality of the officers, the mud, the executions..... and eventually having the outer parts of hes ears blown off by when a piece of artillery misfired."

So Tommy Kenny must have been an Artilleryman or serving in a Corps attached to the Artillery. He would therefore have never been in a front line trench as the artillery was not positioned there.

As for Patrick Magill wounded at Loos in 1915 he returned to England, recovered from his wounds and spent the remainder of the war in England assigned to MI7b writing propaganda. I dare say he was disillusioned after Loos in 1915 - nowhere near as disillusioned, or as pissed-off as Lieutenant-General Sir Douglas Haig after Loos in 1915.

That date is important to you isn't it Jom, because that is when your script seems to stop. For some weird reason you seem to believe that at 1915 everything pertaining to the First World War somehow gets frozen - you are wrong it didn't. Haig took over and from that point onward we started learning. But 1915 is the date and period covered by Alan Clark's book "The Donkeys" in which Clark himself admitted years after publication that he had made stuff up, it was this book that was used as the basis for Greenwood's "Oh What A Lovely War", so you ended up with shit based upon shit - but you believed it didn't you Jom - was that because MacColl/Miller told you to?

"You have been given evidence by people who were there of summary executions"

No we haven't, we've been given vague references to rumours of summary executions that are entirely lacking any corroboration, all down to your slapdash work. You cannot tell where, when or who, just what the f**k were you thinking about when you all interviewed Tommy Kenny? Truly verifiable accounts of life at the front and in the trenches abound in the form of soldiers memoirs and autobiographies and not one of them contains any reference at all to summary executions, or of Military Police forcing men to go over the top.

The gold standard indication that the British people supported the war effort throughout the war - no civil unrest in the country through the entire course of the war.

The gold standard indication of the moral of the British Army in France throughout the war - There was no mutiny in any unit of the British Army deployed to the front throughout the entire course of the war.

The evidence we submit to counter your fairytale version of events massively outweighs your "stories" (And they are just stories because of your handling of them).

"you have consistently lied, claiming you have made a life-long study of the war" - I do not think I have ever claimed making a life long study, life long interest I think is the way it was put and that came about because at the College I attended the study of both the First and Second World Wars was compulsory reading.

As for the Made Up Shit it has become your trade mark Jom and it is you that I have accused as being the "believer of urban myths" - You've been caught out too many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:38 AM

Keith
The repetitious and somewhat disturbing nati#ure of your postings has taken on the nature of the feeble minded (very politically incorrect I am sure, but summing up your behaviour here)
You ask for examples - you have been given them over and over again - try reading your own unread historians - Max Hastings will do for a start (Nope that won't do - doesn't suit so it's all lies)
You have dismissed historians you haven;''t read because they doesn't fit - you have called the men who fought liars because what they say doesn't fit.
The people of Britain have always known how badly the war was led and what a useless bloodbath it was - so last year, a century after the war started, the establishment mounted a campaign to repatriate its reputation - pretending that we had got our knowledge from Blackadder and Oh What a Lovely War - how ****** insulting can you get.
All our families were affected by that ****** adventure - we lost a grandfather and another spent his life with his head bowed because he didn't want people to see the horrific gas burns.
Tommy Kenny - the man we recorded for three days (me, John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr and his grandson Colin, a leading virologist in Queen Mary's Hospital, Paddington at the time) told us exactly how it was - being conned into joining in workless Liverpool having not long left school, the brutality of the officers, the mud, the executions..... and eventually having the outer parts of hes ears blown off by when a piece of artillery misfired.
Your response - all lies - all made up - Tommy never served in the forces.
You were once given and account by Irish author Patrick Magill who, having been wounded at Loos, describing the disillusionment that was present as early as 1915 - totally ignored.
The Paxman programmes showed the pressure of the recruiting methods - the profiteering that went on to send young men to their deaths, the unpreparedness of the defences of Britain, the cock up at Loos, the wrong ammunition, soldiers returning on t
leave to find that the better off were living as if nothing was happening and their total disillusionment in the war - you still insist that it was a glorious fight, well supported
You have been given evidence by people who were there of summary executions - those who gave it were dismissed by you as gullible or liars.
Your evidence to the contrary - carefully selected partial quotes from less than half a dozen 'historians' (Hastings isn't a historian by your own insisted criterion) who are writing a century after the events AND WHO YOU HAVEN'T EVEN READ - JUST SELECTED THE OUT OF CONTEXT JUICY BITS      
What are you people on - who do you think you are calling veterans liars because they don't serve your jingoistic cause?
You claim I haven';t read a book - I have, but that's beside the point - you certainly haven't though you have consistently lied, claiming you have made a life-long study of the wat - you described one of the major pre-war vents in Germany as "made up rubbish" - that's how muchg of a study you have made of World War One.
You are a joke and a total waste of space
If you have an honest , sensible argument - feel free to put it - I've listed the aspects you hae totally ignored (you even lied about that)
What kind of sadistic morrons are you pair, to dare defend the decimation of an entire generation and to describe those who made the sacrifice as "liars" and "believers of urban legends"
You are a disgrace
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:57 AM

Dave and Rag, You have nothing to criticise so you make stuff up.

What stuff have I made up then, Keith? Or did you just make that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:02 AM

Jim,
Piss off Keith - you have no idea what I have read

I know you have read nothing from the last twenty years Jim, because none of that supports your views.
Prove me wrong.
Quote someone.

Dave and Rag, You have nothing to criticise so you make stuff up.
We have never rattled sabres, we have just put current knowledge before you.
We have never suggested that any life is worth more or less than another.
We have just compared armies using indicators like casualties, mutinies and successes. On such indicators, ours emerges as the best led army in the field.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 12:59 AM

"But the fact that you can spout such rubbish about me is perfect testimony, to me at least, that we can't really trust anything you say."

Cuts both ways then doesn't it. By the way who's the "we"? Is it a "royal" we - or the "gang" I normally refer to as "the usual suspects" whose sole apparent mission on this forum is to "mob" and bully Keith A? If you look back to the beginning you will find that that was the drift of my very first contribution to any thread about WWI - Nice to know that you consider that I "clearly know what I am talking about a lot of the time" - Careful now you might lose your street cred making comments like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:44 PM

Well don't then. But the fact that you can spout such rubbish about me is perfect testimony, to me at least, that we can't really trust anything you say. Which is a bloody pity, considering you clearly know what you're talking about a lot of the time. Talk about baby and bathwater. By the way, even though you're mercifully silent on those dastardly God threads, it's good to know that you've noticed my occasional atheistic chagrin. Long may we entertain each other. Tit.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:32 PM

Ooh Stevie - watch that blood pressure now.

Mind you some of it gave me a really good chuckle - especially the bit about you swearing to Almighty God - I could just imagine the spittle spraying the computer screen as you hammered the keys typing that little rant - hope the damn thing's insured, your better when you're babbling on about beer.

Oh and wouldn't take your word on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:21 PM

As incompetent as Haig Dave?
Incompetent enough to win.
Incompetent enough to command the most successful offensive campaign ever fought by the British Army in its entire history.
Incompetent enough to learn and adapt his tactics along every step of the way from command of his first attack at Neuve-Chapelle until the end of the war.

I can think of a whole host of German Generals who would have given their eye-teeth to have been as incompetent as Sir Douglas Haig.

Pershing? Too bloody keen to prove a point, too ignorant to listen to those who'd been facing and overcoming the actual problems over a period of three years, simply a commander with no real command or combat experience. Latter day examples Lucas who was in command of the landings at Anzio, Omar Bradley's refusal of specialist armour for Omaha Beach, Westmoreland in Vietnam who instead of translating and using the intelligence files the French had left had them burned.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:01 PM

"Ah Guest Pendant I see that you have now managed to get your name right, finally got it at the third attempt. Now which one of the usual suspects are you, adopting a new Guest identity, my guess is either Shaw or Raggy."

Well Billy Woodcock, which identity are you going to adopt next? Benito friggin' Musso, or Genghis bleedin' Khan, perhaps? Do you know summat, old bean, I've spent the last couple of weeks repeating myself with some obsessive Christian ex-moderator who thinks I'm out to get him and his sacred tenets to persuade him and his acolytes that I'm doing no such thing, and, frankly, it gets right on my tits, it does (though I'm not bitter). So here I go again, repeating myself. Numero uno, I am not in on the substantive of this thread, so stop dragging me in. Numero duo, I swear to almighty God, to almighty Clapton and to uber-almighty Ludwig Van Beethoven that any post that you ever see here that is not under the name "Steve Shaw" is not by me. If I spot an interloper misusing my name I pounce straight away. If my cookie has crumbled and I show up as Guest I correct it immediately. I absolutely can't stand dishonesty. I'd rather die. So why don't you just just bugger off with your daft insinuations, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:01 PM

Black Jack Pershing had the distinction of ordering 3500of his own troops to their deaths after the armistice was signed. He was at least as incompetent as Haig, and I understand that the two very much admired each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:47 PM

OK then Pendant as you seem unable or unwilling to do any spade work for yourself (Very much like Raggy IIRC) I will provide you with some answers:

April 1917 the USA declared War on Germany, it then took Congress until December 1917 to declare war on the Austro-Hungarians and they never ever got round to declaring war on either Bulgaria or the Ottoman Empire. Which backs up the next bit that between April 1917 and April 1918 the USA although in the war was in total chaos, they had done nothing whatsoever to prepare for taking part in the war.

By the start of the German Spring Offensive of 1918 Pershing considered that it would be at least one more year until the US Army would be in any sort of state to be deployed in the line. The German offensive speeded things up a bit and US Army Units were given "quiet" sections of line in the French Sectors - Some units of the USMC fought alongside the British.

Britain and France provided the US Army with ALL the arms, equipment and ammunition that they required, the Americans themselves came over with nothing, because they simply did not have it.

By the way petulant Pendant what dismissal of all troops? Personally I have the greatest respect for them all, more than can be said for you and your pals.

OK Raggy what GUEST persona are you going to adopt next?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:42 PM

Then the American Generals were even better than first thought

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:32 PM

Oh by the way "Pendant" the US statistics for KIA are wrong in the link you supplied - that gave them as being ~120,000+. US KIA was only ~60,000 the others died of diseases primarily Spanish Influenza.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Pendant
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:45 PM

I do not think you would recognise the truth if it came and bit you on the bum. Your dismissal of all the troops is appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:30 PM

Ah Guest Pendant I see that you have now managed to get your name right, finally got it at the third attempt. Now which one of the usual suspects are you, adopting a new Guest identity, my guess is either Shaw or Raggy.

As you brought it up when was it that the United States of America enter the war? Was it August 1914 or April 1917.

Perhaps you could tell us all who it was that provided the men of the US Army with weapons, machine guns, artillery, transport, aircraft and ammunition? Tell us when it was that they arrived in sufficient numbers to be deployed, how they were deployed, and where they were deployed.

Perhaps you could tell us the first time they operated under Pershing as a US Army?

And of course you could explain that an army that fought for four years and three months would have higher casualty figures that an Army that fought for less that ten months. Perhaps this might be of interest:

" After the Allies turned back the powerful final German offensive (Spring Offensive of March to July, 1918), the Americans played a role in the Allied final offensive (Hundred Days Offensive of August to November). Many American commanders used the same flawed tactics which the British and French had abandoned early in the war, and so not all American offensives were particularly effective. Pershing continued to commit troops to full- frontal attacks, resulting in high casualties against veteran German units."

I suppose that you will now come back and suggest that the Japanese had better Generals - they didn't suffer any losses, but there again they didn't fight in France for four years and three months as did the British, the French, the Belgians and the Germans - Now "Pendant" if you compare the casualties suffered by the major combatant powers of 1914 that would be a case of comparing apples to apples. Now Raggy likes moving goalposts and this "Pendant" is just yet another instance of it. A bit difficult when you run into someone with a special interest in the period and a greater knowledge of it than most on this forum isn't it Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:52 PM

"I have never read of any historian who does not agree."
That sentence if four words too long
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:42 PM

"Jim you have read no history for twenty years."
Piss off Keith - you have no idea what I have read
This is typical of the stupidity of some of your statements.
How can you possibly know what I have read - did one of your historians tell you?
Must be true then
I have o intention of joining your "My historian is bigger than yours" game - you've had the information of what your own historians actually said - how about responding to that?
Do not call me a liar - not with your record of persistent lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:41 PM

Hey Greg, How does that feel

No worries; I wouldn't expect any less from the Professor & Terribyte Show. More than enything else, the SOS is profoundly boring.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:19 PM

Perhaps it may have passed by you Keith but going by the numbers American Generals were better than the British.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:15 PM

Pendant, you must be reading something else.
Nothing like that has been said on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST, Pendant
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:10 PM

Hey Greg, How does that feel, all the Yanks who died or were maimed don't count a tinkers cuss* to the likes of Teribus and Keith. (* British expression that means f**k all
Must be wonderful to know much their sacrifice meant to the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

Jim you have read no history for twenty years.
If you deny that, tell us who you have read, because I am aware of none that support your views.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:58 PM

Jim and Dave,
But it still does not detract one iota from the war being a bloody catastrophe.

I agree.
I am sure Teribus agrees.
I have never read of any historian who does not agree.
Hastings actually called his book "Catastrophe."

Jim, you say you do not reject the findings of the historians, but you do.
All but one conclude that Britain was right to resist the invading aggressor.
All agree that the British people accepted that.
All agree that the British Army was generally well led.
You still reject all that, but it has been the consensus for years.
You think you know better, but how could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:41 PM

"What pronouncements?"
All your statements are pronouncements - no proof as backing
"That Great Britain was on the side that won the war?
What has that to do with anything other than the "Good Leaders" that sent the men over the top were ruthlessly prepared to do so - doesn't ake for good leadership, doesn't change the fact that it was an Imperialist war..... has nothing to do with the questions I raised, which you are still not answering
we know who won.
"Provide proof that Kitchener was forced to resign"Been there - done that".
"Provide proof that the Thomas Kenny you interviewed ever served in the British Army."
Prove he didn't - we have his statements saying he did - all archived.
Prove I am lying or Tommy Kenny was - have given you the names of those who were with us so we all must be lying.
"Provide proof backed by substantive evidence that British Troops were summarily executed by the Military Police"
I have given links to people who either there or had relatives who were there.
More lying veterans -eh what - why do we bother paying tribute to these lying bastards each year? (or maybe you only do so to those who agree with you)
What a nasty piece of work you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:26 PM

Oh I get the picture. The Amercans don't count.

Lies, damned lies, statistics rule KO ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:21 PM

Sorry Guest Pendant I wasn't aware that during the First World War that the United States of America numbered among those considered to be the major combatant powers in 1914.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Harry Forest
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:58 AM

Teribus says Harry Forest = Musket. Even his maths is wonky.

Of course, being eager to believe something you want to believe runs through anything Tetibus or Keith A of Hertford types. Says it all really.

Sorry, Woodcock old lad, I'm not a Musket. If he'll have me, I can send him my cv, but there you go.

Or actually you go, along the lines of;

Ahh {insert name of anyone about to be taken out of context} waffle waffle bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:47 AM

Yes, I can thankyou, teribums. Can you not understand my answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Pendant
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:40 AM

Following your logic Teribus the American Generals must have been the best they lost far fewer troops. I am sure that you and Keith are delighted to know this. World War 1 Troop Stats (Allied Powers)


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