Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:55 AM

Ah...apologies!!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:44 AM

(Note: "defenCe" and "offenCe" are the standard British and Canadian spellings).

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:09 AM

When you create a gigantic defence [sic] (actually, it's offence [sic]) industry and a huge military...

One of the major problems the US is having in Iraq (besides the moral one of being there in the first place) is that the defense budget is about half of what it was during the Reagan years (in constant dollars) and the Army itself is much smaller than it was during the Cold War.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:18 AM

There are further reasons. When you create a gigantic defence (actually, it's offence) industry and a huge military and an enormous covert spying agency which deals in drugs, assassination, undeclared wars, and takeovers, you need official enemies in order to justify the allocation of funds and resources, and in order to justify using your dogs of war. If one official enemy goes down, another must soon be found. Otherwise there are huge vested interests who will find themselves in deep trouble, and important people will start losing money.

That can't be allowed to happen, so further enemies are always found...either abroad...or at home...or both.

This doesn't mean there aren't some real enemies. After all, anyone with such destructive programs underway as I described above is bound to have real enemies...a lot of them. It's the inevitable result of being the biggest criminal on the block.

Al Capone and Bugsy Siegel had real enemies too...and for the same basic reasons. He who lives by the sword and by treachery and by force is always in danger of dying by the sword and by treachery and by force. What goes around comes around.

This is also true of despots such as those in power in North Korea and Iran, by the way. They too create their own bad karma by their own negative actions and bad attitudes toward those they have assigned as their enemies.

So it goes both ways.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:44 PM

The real question is why does the American Adminstration hate Iraq and Korea? The psychologists call this "projection".

OK, the answer is that some groups mobilize politically by creating enemies. It's a way of consolidating power.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:31 PM

Yeah, you're right, come to think of it. "Pea soupers" referred to French Canadians.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:26 PM

I've always understood Rednecks as people who live in Arkansas.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:03 PM

I always understood 'pea-soupers' - or 'pea-soups' - to be French-Canadians.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:53 PM

Beaver Lovers

This just sounds like bragging to me.

;-)

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:26 PM

Yeah, "meself"...heh! I did make up most of them...but not "tabernacs". Most definitely not. That's a real one. The Mexicans have been known to refer to Canadian francophone tourists as "tabernacs". Guess why...

Say, here's another one. I think people used to call rural Canadian workmen (such as lumberjacks and railway workers) "pea-soupers" at one time.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:20 PM

I've only ever heard of Canucks and Newfies - I think you just made the rest of those up. Let's face it: we're not important enough to warrant a real epithet.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:17 PM

Some informal names for Canadians....

Canucks
Muklukers
Pucksters
Toqueheads
Newfies (regional - Newfoundland)
Tabernacs (regional - Quebec)
Black Fly Bait (semi-regional, but really almost anywhere north of, oh, Orillia, I guess)
Snow Eaters (insulting variant: Yellow Snow Eaters)
Moose Shaggers
Beaver Lovers

Heh! Remember, I'm Canadian. Just goofing around here...

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:06 PM

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:02 PM

Where are you from?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:00 PM

Why invent a new name like "Amerirats" for people who call others names? Bigot will do.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:56 PM

And charlies.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:53 PM

And Jerries.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:45 PM

O.K., O.K.

You are definitely Americans.

What about the ones who call other people names. Can I call them Amerats?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:18 PM

Amerats.

Yep. Right up there with Japs, Chinks, Spicks, Wops, Krauts, and Frogs. . . .

And thus another racial/ethnic/national slur goes into the world's lexicon of hate speach.

Way to go, dianavan! Just what the world needs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:52 PM

We as individuals did not give ourselves that name. It has been what we were called forever and has deep meaning..nothing else comes close or sounds nice. As far as I am concerned everyone in the world can call themselves that but I intend to continue to call myself an American. Hatred spreads. We have enough. We don't need more. mg

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:27 PM

Yes, I do prefer USAn. But you said you were going to call, all "Americans" (USAns) Amerats, as long as any of us call ourselves Americans. But still, Amerat sounds like a pretty hateful term to be using against an entire group of many millions of people.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:26 PM

Oh dear..who is being smug? I think calling someone an Amerat is hate speech and does the world need it really? mg

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:25 PM

Which gets back to the topic of this thread.

Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?

Answer: Because they are so smug. In Korean thats

Àß³­ üÇÏ´Â, »µ±â´Â

I think the Iranians just call them ass-holes.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:21 PM

Hey Carol, you said you preferred to be called a 'USAn'. So be it.

As for those who call themselves, American, I just don't buy it. If they can't give themselves an appropriate name, then others can call them anything they like. They leave themselves wide open for being so smug.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:20 PM

Good point, meself. And I've noticed (and commented on another thread), that the only Canadians I ever see behaving in this particular way are ones who immigrate there from other countries. It seems a pretty unCanadian way to behave, from my experience of Canadians.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:16 PM

Just a reminder: please don't take what one Canadian citizen has to say as representative of any what any other Canadians think.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:11 PM

( ...or any other kind of name we create to refer to an entire group of people of whom we disapprove)

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:08 PM

Amerats. Has a kind of ring to it, doesn't it? Like Japs, and Gooks, and Ragheads, and Wetbacks, and Camel Jockeys...

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:55 PM

I would like to call myself an American except that people would then assume I have no allegiance to Canada. I will continue to call myself Canadian and until you, as a Nation, can get your foreign policy straightened out, I will call those living in the U.S., Amerats. I will no longer call you Americans (like I said, you're not that precious anymore) and if you do not wish to be referred to as Amerats, you should call yourselves something more appropriate.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:36 PM

I think everyone anywhere can call themselves an American, but being nasty to us when we call ourselves that, when it is our name, is grossly immature and petulant....I have a technicality to call you on and I am one of the many who looks down at my nose on Americans so there I gotcha. It is silly and mean and they do it to put us down and not to make sure others are included, which they certainly are if they wish to be known that way. And that includes Greenland, which is on the continent of America..north America... America is a concept as much as a place and it has some very ideas in it and jumping on people for no particularly good reason is stupid. mg

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:36 PM

I have to admit that Canadians are the only people I've encountered in the Americas who really care about the continent they live in being a part of how they self-identify. And they usually forget to include Mexicans when they talk about North Americans. I think most of the rest of the people in the Americas don't really think about it too much.

;-)


But I also have to admit that the jingoism that has become one of the more obvious characteristics of our civil religion here in the US has completely put me off of using the term "American" to refer to myself and the country in which I live.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:56 PM

Interesting thread drift.

Actually I consider myself a human being living in Canada on the North American continent with an ethno-centric bias. In short, an American hybrid or an Amerindian.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

Well, there's this old saying about "putting the cat among the pigeons." But that's a bit more like the pigeon voluntarily landing among the cats.

'Course, what may save the American Baptist would be the possibily that the Afghans might die laughing. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:19 PM

Yes, that's a very handy cover, Don. Wearing a Canadian flag on your backpack works the same way. ;-)

How about walking up to those same Afghans with their AK-47's and saying, "Hi, guys! Praise the Lord! I am an American Baptist from Dallas, Texas, U.S. of A...not too far from where George Bush has his ranch, and I'm just spreadin' the good word of Jesus in these here benighted parts. Say...have you fellas been saved yet?"

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:12 PM

Amos doth speak with great sagacity.

Actually, I consider myself to be an Earthling. But in the long run, this appellation may turn out to be far too provincial.

You know, I really didn't know that Canadians, Mexicans, Bolivians, Chileans, Argentineans, and Patagonians were all so eager to call themselves "Americans," and are so filled with resentment at the citizens of the United States of American, that sometime back in their history, they somehow managed to pass some sort of Universal Law that only they have God's permission to use the term "American" in reference to themselves. Or that anyone really gave a damn. After all, all of the inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere (not to mention the Eastern Hemisphere as well) have a fairly brief word by which they can identify themselves in relation to their national origin or chosen country of residence. [How do Namibians feel about South Africans calling themselves "South Africans?" After all, Namibia is in south Africa, too.]

Let me ask this:    Are there any—say—Canadians who are really eager to walk up a group of dark-haired, hot-eyed young men in Afghanistan who are sitting around cleaning their AK-47s and making bombs and say cheerily, "Hi guys! I'm an American!"

Eh?

Don Firth

P. S. On the other hand, I do know a few Americans (please pardon my use of the term when referring specifically to citizens of the United States of Americans) who, when overseas, don't let people know they are Americans (please pardon—etc., etc.), but tell people that they are Canadians.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

Phi, that's right, by gosh! In those days someone from Virginia was "a Virginian". Well, dang...

It's a bit like that in Canada. I'd say that the Newfoundlanders and the Quebecois in particular tend to identify themselves first by their provincial label, rather their their national label.

And yeah, the Quebec situation puzzles us, all right. That's putting it mildly. ;-)

Amos, you are right. It's a non-issue that people are quibbling about here.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 12:12 PM

The point that is missing here is that the US is the only nation that uses the word America in its national name, and therefore naturally finds it being shortened to Americans. The Canadians do not call themselves the United Provicinces of Canadian America, not doesa any other Central American or South American country use "America" in its title.

So I submit we are quibblilng about a non-issue here, much like those who cannot differentiate between the common name for the human species and the common name for the male gender of the species. Two different meanings using the same phonemes. No-one gets upset by the abuse of felines when a twin-hulled boat (or an eath-mover) is called a Cat, or a website, either. We live in a language rich with homonyms anfd multiple, differing definitions for one set of alphabetic characters. Suggest we just get bloody used to it, after more than 1500 years.


A

A

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: philgarringer
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM

Little Hawk,

It goes even further than that. When they first set up these United States of America, it was in a loose confederation of what they considered seperate states (as in nations). Back then, someone from Viriginia would call themselves a Virginian, not an American. It wasn't until our War Between the States, which we Yankees refer to by a different name, that the question was settled.

In most places that I have lived here in the US, people STILL mostly identify themselves by their state (or city) first, although we all consider ourselves Americans.

Then, there's the whole hyphenated American. That's a different story. I would be considered an Irish-, English-, Armenian-American. I prefer the term Hiberno-American, or Eurasian-American.

My observation is that there is a similar mind set in Canada. I happen to live and work near the border of NY State, Ontario and Quebec. The Quebec situation greatly confuses many of us 'mericanos. I am sure it confuses y'all, too!

I love living here, and being able to go to Canada. It gives me a greater range of music listening choices. I am an hour or so from Ottawa, and 2 hours from Montreal. There are some GREAT musicians up this way, and the cross border influences make it even better.

Oh, and I get to eat poutine!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:01 AM

LOL! Well, there is certainly a tendency toward ethnocentricity in any nationality or distinct group of people. I note that the first thing they emphasize on our Canadian news when there's a plane crash in, say, the Phillipines is...

...they let know you know whether or not any Canadians were on the plane, and if so how many, and whether any Canadians were killed.

So what's that about? Well, on the one hand, it's ethnocentricity. On the other hand, it's just doing your job as an extended "family" (which is what a nation or ethnic group is, in a sense), and keeping the family informed as to what is going on with its members.

So you can look on it positively or negatively, as you choose.

Don Firth's last post has pretty well got the "American" thing covered, I think.

What we see now in the use of these terms is the end result of what happened when a group of rebellious British colonists got together in the 1770's and decided to join several colonies into a new nation. They apparently couldn't think of or at least agree on any specific name to call that new nation...so they named it for the entire continental area.

They might have, for example, called it "Columbia", I suppose. Just one possibility. Or they could have called it "Cascadia" or "Appalachia" or "Arborea" or really anything like that. But you had the representatives of thirteen different colonies, now becoming independent states...in a cooperative association together...

Can you imagine the difficulties of getting men from thirteen different states to all agree on what to call their new country??? It would be a real hassle.

So I figure that's probably why they went for the literal statement of simply calling it "the United States of America". They were short of time to decide, having a war to fight, and it was the only thing everyone was willing to agree on at the time.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: philgarringer
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:25 AM

eth·no·cen·trism
   
1. Sociology. the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.
2. a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.

You know, I listen to the CBC everyday. This sure does sound like part of their mssion statement.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:30 AM

People from Mexico, Canada, Venezuela, etc. are not Americans.

Is this your unilateral assertion? As an American (a citizen of the United States of), I unilaterally disagree. On the other hand, each of these nations has a unique name which events of a few hundred years ago deprived us. On the third hand, as a Canadian (and, if I recall, a former citizen of the United States), are you saying that you want to be referred to as "an American"?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:14 AM

"Now, how, I wonder, might this go down with someone named something like, say, Rajiv Brahmagupta, living in Bangalore, or, perhaps, Maharastra? When hearing someone born of aboriginal stock on the North American continent referred to as an "Indian," might he not, with some justification, say, "Hey! Now just a darn minute here!"

My point, exactly.

Er, not quite.

People from India are Indians. People from China are Chinese. People from Europe are Europeans. People from Mexico, Canada, Venezuela, etc. are not Americans. Americans are the only Americans. Why are they so entitled?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 11:14 PM

Re:   The word "American" as referring to citizens of the United States of America.

Well, if the purpose of language is to communicate meaning, I don't see that it constitutes much of a problem.   "Citizens of the United States of America" is a bit long and awkward. "United Statesians" fails to distinguish if one is referring to the United States of America or the United States of Mexico (hey, waitaminit! Isn't Mexico part of America?). All of the other permutations that come to mind are equally awkward, clunky, or verge on the downright silly.

As it stands now, it is not just citizens of the United States of America who refer to themselves as "Americans," but most of the rest of the world as well. But how, you ask, do you distinguish between the citizens of the various nations on the two American continents (and, of course, the isthmus connecting the two, generally referred to as "Central America")? Well, most people (including most or all of those who live in other parts of the world, including in the Americas other than in the United States of America) refer to those who live in Canada as "Canadians," in Mexico as "Mexicans," in Puerto Rico as "Puerto Ricans," in Peru as "Peruvians," in Brazil as "Brazilians," in Tierra del Fuego as "Tierra del Fuegans" (need I go on?). Almost all these people refer to the folks who live in the country that lies between Canada on the north and Mexico on the south as "Americans." And that, generally, without prompting or coercion from the country in question.

I don't see that the fact that the citizens of the United States of America also generally refer to themselves as "Americans" implies—per se—that the citizens of the United States of American are inherently arrogant, egotistical snob-slobs who took it upon themselves to usurp the word "American" to use exclusively in reference to themselves. When practically everyone else in the world does it. (After all, there are other reasons, far more to the point, why many of the world's peoples might regard many Americans [pardon my use of the term], particularly the government, as a collection of arrogant, egotistical snob-slobs.)

Now, some First Nations (or Native Americans) object to being called "Indians," cognizant of the fact that Christopher Columbus may have been one of the great explorers of the world, but he didn't know where in the hell he was. He assumed he was in "the Indies," and referred to the people he encountered as "Indians." Now, many First Nations folk (or Native Americans) don't mind being referred to as "Indians," and, indeed, refer to themselves with that term.

Now, how, I wonder, might this go down with someone named something like, say, Rajiv Brahmagupta, living in Bangalore, or, perhaps, Maharastra? When hearing someone born of aboriginal stock on the North American continent referred to as an "Indian," might he not, with some justification, say, "Hey! Now just a darn minute here!"

Life can get very complicated, if one chooses to make it so. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 10:45 PM

Why do you think the anyone in the US (except the bone-head ignorant) thinks that they are "the only Americans"? And why do you think the name originated with the inhabitants of the United States? English politicians were referring to the "American colonists" and "the American problem" long before the American revolution, and they weren't referring to anyone who spoke Spanish! See, for example, William Pitt's speech on the Stamp Act.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 09:21 PM

Art - I think you are missing the point. Americans are not the only Americans. It is a name that all of us in the Americas should share.

Does anyone but Greeks call themselves Greek? Maybe we should refer to all Greeks, Italians, Germans etc. after the name of their continent rather than their nation. Thats what the people of the U.S. have done. They have named themselves after a continent. All of the inhabitants are American. People of the U.S. are not the only Americans.

Get a real name. Staters is more accurate but Statelings or Statelets will do.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:48 PM

The citizens of the US are hardly the only people to use part of the name of their nation as their national use-name. The United Mexican States has been mentioned, and then there is the Republic of South Africa (should they be Republicans?...nah - what would be left for the Peruvians, Azeris and others? And Greece is really the Hellenic Republic - maybe they should be called Hellions rather than Greeks); Great Britain (perhaps we should call them Great British? or, since it is really the United Kingdom, how about UKers?) and, oh yeah, Canada used to be the Dominion of Canada - which would make them the Dominators, right? Believe it or not, there are other things to argue about!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:35 PM

eth·no·cen·trism
   
1. Sociology. the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.
2. a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:15 PM

Cute but lacking true wit, Phil. Most of it made no sense at all. What is it you wished to be called? I like 'Amerats', myself.

The Fraser Institute is a right wing think tank and a bunch of bean counters. I don't think we're talking about private contributions to charities, anyway. I think we're talking about American foreign policy, in general. I got caught up in some thread drift.

When I say that Americans, in general, are well known for their selfishness and their penchant for breaking the rules, I think we can all come up with some good examples. Petr and other Mudcatters named a few. Free trade is a very good example of making rules and then breaking them. Torture of prisoners is another. You need only to look at the way the government ignores its own citizenry for examples of selfishness. Sorry Phil, America may have the biggest guns but that doesn't entitle you to use the title, "American" and ignore your neighbors. You really aren't that precious, anymore.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:41 PM

well lets see the US flipped the bird to the rest of the world as the only industrial country other than Austr. to opt out of Kyoto protocol (even though it was the largest polluter)..
the same follows for landmine treaty, refusal to recognize the World Court but at the same time trying to use UN resolutions to justify its war on Iraq. (lets see,.. if some country were to mine New York harbor that would clearly be a terrorist act.. on the other hand when the instigator is the US and it mines Managuas harbor thats ok.)

(I know Iran isnt mentioned on the list but Id say the CIA backed overthrow of a democratically elected president and installation of a
dictator with a ruthless secret police- should be sufficient reason)

why not ask instead why Iraq and (North) Korea are/were considered part of an axis of evil? Along with Iran (a nonsensical situation anyway since an axis does not have 3 points, two of which are avowed enemies..)

the more likely reason is the 'successful defiance' of those states.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 06:57 PM

"Statelings" is kind of cute. I vote for it.

Did you know that the full name of Mexico is The United States of Mexico (Los Estados Unidos de Mexico)?

Canada used to be The Dominion of Canada, but now I believe it is just Canada.