Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 02:42 AM

By all means Little Hawk, have a bit of a pop at me and ignore the points I raised against your diatribe against the US, that is after all the specific topic of this thread, concentrate on your ping-pong analogy.

The fact still remains that - "most countries do not fear America". That is purely the product of your rather jaundiced and totally biased opinion - always for the underdog eh? Oh, favourite hobby-horse of yours Little Hawk - most people, within their "Empire", did not hate the Romans either, they too provided security, prosperity, order, good governance and improvement - the people, in general, tended to appreciate all that.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:04 PM

Oh, come now. There is no need for you to trouble yourself so over my opinions, Teribus. I would answer your diatribe point by point...but to do so, I'd have to be as obsessed with attacking you as you are with attacking me.

And I'm not.

It's perfectly okay with me that you and I have very different lives and utterly different philosophies.

But I will answer one of your questions, regarding the ping pong.

"What is the point of even having rules for the game?"

The rules are precisely what make the game the game, and make it enjoyable to play, and possible to play. You don't have any game without the rules. One doesn't have to keep score to follow the rules, my friend, but one does need the rules to understand how to conduct any given volley until it is ended. Obviously. The fun is in making it as good a volley as possible while it lasts. Each volley is its own complete fun. I've played a lot of ping pong, and I can attest to that. Just playing flat out, volley after volley, without worrying about the score is as great as just sailing a boat, or riding a horse, or any other physical activity. And you do have to know exactly what you're doing in all of them and follow certain general rules in order to do it efficiently and enjoy it.

I have no interest in arranging for more winners and losers, T, none.

I also have no interest in dividing the world up into more archetypal "good guys" and "bad guys" and going off to kill someone over it.

But that's okay. There will always be plenty of people who do have an interest in that, so don't worry about me being some kind of threat that is going to end it all. ;-)

Hitting the ball against a wall, by the way...or against the raised table top on a folding table...is a great way of speeding up your play and improving your technique, but it's not nearly as interesting as playing against another human being.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 09:01 PM

Good heavens Little Hawk you do spout some complete and utter bollocks at times!! Your latest contributions in this thread defy description.

Now let's take a look at few examples:

"Hatred arises out of fear. Clearly, those countries as well as many others are afraid of America. Ask yourself why."

Yes Little Hawk I'll ask myself why. In actual fact most countries do not fear America. In actual fact most countries rely on America for their defence and well being. When you are talking about countries are you talking about the population of those countries or the governments of those countries?

"Without any fear, you do not have hatred. You may have other negative emotions, such as contempt, etc, but you will not have hatred unless it has arisen out of a significant level of fear."

You do not mention jealousy? You do not mention that the "evil" influences eminating from America actually liberate the individual according to some doctrines and that, of course must never be allowed to happen - why? - because the unelected mullahs and immams then lose control. Imagine a world in which the renaissance or reformation never happened? Imagine the fear and ignorance we would have been condemned to live in!

"There are conflicting interests causing fear between America and much of the rest of the world. Those interests are primarily matters of economic competition and competition for scarce resources and markets."

Here Little Hawk you are viewing things from one perspective and one that defies history, particularly history that promotes the betterment of mankind. The conflicting interests at present are between those who promote democracy/free will/self-enlightenment against constrained religious freedom and strict adherence to Sharia Law. Now I don't know about you Little Hawk but I certainly know under which regime I would rather live. Maybe you would argue that that desire must not be "imposed" on others - Only thing is that if you take a good look at where illegal immigrants are heading for it is not towards the middle-east or to countries advocating the universal benefits of Sharia Law - does that tell you anything at all Little Hawk?

"That's why I consider mutual cooperation to be a better idea than competition. I always did."

Lovely concept, let's see what it looks like in practice. Please point out to me which stance is incorrect:

Hamas/Hezbollah avowed aim clearly stated in their charters is the destruction of Israel, the erradication of the Jewish people and wiping the stain of the Jewish State from Arab lands.

Recognise our right of peaceful co-existence and there will be peace.

OK Little Hawk, which of those parties appear willing and totally committed to following your advice - Hamas/Hezbollah or Israel?

"Example: I found that I enjoyed playing table tennis a lot more if me and the other person didn't keep score...but just played for the fun of it. It was way more fun. It also led to more interesting play, because one wasn't worried about losing a point by trying a specially risky shot. It was better in every way. I discovered that I would much rather play for the sheer joy of playing than for the brief and pointless joy of "winning" (at the cost of making somebody else "lose"). I like winning, but I don't like to make someone else lose, so it's a conflicted situation."

Please tell me, under those circumstances what is the point of even playing?

What is the point of even having rules for the game?

You could enjoy yourself by just hitting the ball up against a wall. But there again maybe that is what you want, something that is completely anti-social - are you really that much of a misfit? Basic fact of life, in every sphere and in every facet of human endeavour there are winners and losers, the more you lose the more you learn, the more you must aspire to, without that concept human endeavour is nothing, it's what keeps us moving forward, and we have contiued to move forward (but not in Gaza or in the West Bank), no matter what you attempt to teach your children - by the bye I take it that Little Hawk has no children, I, on the other hand have four, all well educated all through university, all well settled and happy

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM

The Korean troubles go way back. Japan had wars with Korea in their medieval times. Japan later conquered and occupied Korea under a brutal colonial regime, then went on to invade China and fight a border war with Russia. So the Koreans, a single nation, were under the heel of Japan for a sustained period. Following Japan's defeat in 1945, the USA and Russia basically starting playing their own imperial games in the Korean peninsula. That resulted in Korea being divided into 2 sections with totally conflicting agendas, which was bound to lead to war.

To say that this was unfortunate for the Koreans is to understate it! It was not in their interests to be used as pawns of Japan or Russia or the USA.

Countries which are artifically divided by competing empires usually end up trying to reunite themselves...either peacefully, as Germany eventually did when the Cold War ended....or through war...as has happened in Korea and Vietnam.

In the case of Vietnam the war ended in a victory for the North, and the country was reunited. In the case of Korea the war ended in a stalemate, and the country remains divided...and still in danger of further warfare at any time.

Think what would happen if two foreign powers forcibly partitioned and divided the USA, and started arming both sections of it against one another. Do you think it would not lead to future warfare in what is now the USA?

All the history has to be taken into account when looking at Korea, not just the history since 1950.

It is a great shame that the victors of WWII saw fit to artificially divide Korea, a single nation, and fight each other indirectly across its battered body. Perhaps Japanese, Russians, and Americans should all admit their own complicity in what has happened in Korea.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

And apparently somebody in Thatcher's govt said something that led the Argentine junta to think that they could take the Falklands without any resistance ...

I think there's a lesson in here somewhere. Something to do with wishful thinking ...

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 05:10 PM

When Truman's sec. of State,Dean Acheson, stated that there was nothing in Korea that was of interest to us, the North invaded the south.
When Bush's ambassador to Iraq said we don't care what they do in the middle east, Saddam Hussein took that as a green light to take BACK Kuwait.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM

Hatred arises out of fear. Clearly, those countries as well as many others are afraid of America. Ask yourself why.

Without any fear, you do not have hatred. You may have other negative emotions, such as contempt, etc, but you will not have hatred unless it has arisen out of a significant level of fear.

That, for instance, is why most North American Indians hated the white Americans in the 1800s...and it's also why the white Americans hated the Indians. Mutual fear, due to conflicting interests.

There are conflicting interests causing fear between America and much of the rest of the world. Those interests are primarily matters of economic competition and competition for scarce resources and markets.

And thus it has ever been. The Romans and Carthaginians hated each other for the very same reasons.

That's why I consider mutual cooperation to be a better idea than competition. I always did.

Example: I found that I enjoyed playing table tennis a lot more if me and the other person didn't keep score...but just played for the fun of it. It was way more fun. It also led to more interesting play, because one wasn't worried about losing a point by trying a specially risky shot. It was better in every way. I discovered that I would much rather play for the sheer joy of playing than for the brief and pointless joy of "winning" (at the cost of making somebody else "lose"). I like winning, but I don't like to make someone else lose, so it's a conflicted situation.

Some people just can't relate to that at all. They only care about winning. I had a friend, Larry, an excellent player, and he simply couldn't bear to play without keeping score, because then he couldn't tell if he was "winning" or not, and winning was everything to him.

The Romans and Carthaginians could have decided to trade with each other in a friendly fashion, share in their knowledge, and co-exist as brothers. Both could have prospered. Entire cities of innocent people could have been spared from annihilation. They lacked the imagination to make such an arrangement.

I'm sorry to say that national leaders today also appear to lack the imagination to make such an arrangement. They're still playing to "win"...which means that somebody else must lose.

It's a shortsighted and destructive attitude. Today's winner will not necessarily win tomorrow...and even if he does, other people must suffer and die to secure his win...and their descendants will probably seek vengeance upon his descendants...or on someone else entirely.

You see, if you keep kicking the dog, then the dog will eventually get nasty and bite someone. Maybe not you. Maybe someone else. The person the dog bites will get upset and probably dump it on someone else. And so it goes....

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:04 PM

"Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?"

Do you really wanna be loved by these countries? And are you resp. your government are willing to love these countries?

After all, what do you expect? Think of your president.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 02:33 PM

pirandello - 26 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

"People have long memories; especially in Korea's case. America was, and is, perceived as an Imperialist aggressor. America's invasion of North Korea and the subsequent defeat of hers and Allied forces by the Red Army of China which came to the aid of the Koreans is still remembered."

Now that has got to be the most twisted take on the Korean War that I have ever read.

From Wikipedia:
The Korean War began as a civil war fought from 1950–1953 on the Korean Peninsula, which had been divided by the post-World War II Soviet and American occupation zones. The civil war began on June 25, 1950, when North Korea attacked South Korea. The civil war was greatly expanded when the United States, and later China entered the conflict. The conflict ended when a cease-fire was reached on July 27, 1953.

The principal support on the side of the North was China, with limited assistance by Soviet combat advisors, military pilots, and weapons. South Korea was supported by United Nations (U.N.) forces, primarily from the United States, although many other nations also contributed personnel. When the conflict began, North and South Korea existed as provisional governments competing for control over the Korean peninsula after the Division of Korea by the United States and the Soviet Union.

Points of Note:
1) The aggressor was North Korea - documented fact
2) Defence of South Korea was undertaken by a United Nations Force of which the US provided the major part - documented fact.
3) The "Red Army of China" played no part in the conflict, no such force existed. It certainly did not defeat anybody - documented fact.
4) The Chinese force that took part in the conflict was the Chinese People's Volunteer Army, not the Chinese People's Liberation Army - documented fact.
5) I would be prepared to wager quite a sum that the people of North Korea now look at their brothers in the South and dearly wish that the Chinese had stayed at home - personal observation.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:35 PM

Cookster, you might as well ask why the Gauls, Hispanic peoples, Britons, Germanic tribes, Jews, Egyptians, Numidians, Greeks, Helvetii, Belgii, and all those other tribes back then hated Rome....

Same basic reason.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: pirandello
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

People have long memories; especially in Korea's case. America was, and is, perceived as an Imperialist aggressor. America's invasion of North Korea and the subsequent defeat of hers and Allied forces by the Red Army of China which came to the aid of the Koreans is still remembered.
America tried to fight an idealogical war and failed dismally. The same happened in Vietnam and the same thing is happening in the Middle East.
Isn't it about time America got the idea that losing wars isn't a great idea?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM

Rent the movie "Network" and watch it. It was made in the 70's. It's about how television has slowly but surely in the last 60 years turned American society into a sick joke. Everything you could really want to know about why the world has begun to see America as an insane and dangerous monster can be grasped if you simply watch that movie through and think about the implications of what it's showing you...

And you know what? I hear it's even worse in Japan. TV is like air there. It's omnipresent. They have huge TV screens on the side of buildings and TVs in their trains and buses. Japan is not well liked by its neighbours either.

You take a nation of Americans, people who once had the patience and the grace to read books, plough fields, raise horses, write handwritten letters to each other, and engage in real physical daily life...and you plunk them down in front of a babbling TV for 4 or 5 hours every day of their life, bombard them with ceaseless inane advertising, and feed them potato chips and Coca-Cola...and, my friend, you are headed for something so collosally stupid, wasteful, and ugly that it simply has to be witnessed to be believed....and it has to be witnessed by someone who is capable of standing outside it and looking at it objectively, from an independent point of observation.

Unfortunately, when people are born right into the middle of it, they hardly even notice what's going on. They don't know any better, because it's all they've ever known. Thus are the young people trapped in the quicksand of the TV age, and swallowed up by what they take for granted.

This present age will not be remembered too kindly by whatever follows in its wake, in my opinion. We are living in something akin to the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, the latter days.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:44 PM

US hegenomy is no secret. It is a systemic problem with the development of our country starting from the displacement of Native Americans through African American slavery not to mention the brutality of the Mexican American war.

I don't think that Iraqis or Koreans hate the American people. In many ways, they would like our material advantages. Jazz, rock, R and B, Rap and folk music are exportable ambassadors for American culture. Unfortunately, many Americans are ignorant of Iraqi or Korean cultures. It's an ignorant one-way street.

The people in power in the US have no regard for other cultures. They see them as money-making machinery to satiate their greed. The rest of the world knows this and rejects this provinciality. It appears as hatred but if you dig deeper you will find that it's the behavior of the ruling-class America that incites reaction, not that of all the American people.

Also, religious zealotry and intolerance are at the basis of much of the conflict...as usual.

Frank

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:40 PM

You have to ask yourself a few crucial questions, cookster, like...

"Why did I get up this morning?"

"Who am I?"

"What's it all for?"

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:56 PM

DELETE

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:17 AM

The proposition, as artbrooks mentioned, is flawed in the asking. Individuals hate; groups like nations do not. When media, or noise and brouhaha create enough Fear Uncertainty and Doubt to make it appear that a whole group shares a hatred it is time to start talking to individuals; they are the only ones who can properly own an emotion or an attitude, and generally you will find most of them much more rational than any cloud of black-PR smoke will ever seem to be.


A

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:26 PM

One problem is the "Teddy Roosevelt" syndrome.

TR said "Talk softly and carry a big stick"

To put it in 'cartoon terms'

The USA 'know' that they mean well.

America's allies can hear the soothing words and feel they can trust the US.

Some friendly states can't hear but hope the US can be trusted

But some states are further out and just see a muttering giant with a club.

As I say, just a cartoon like example, but it may help.

As for why there are hostile relations between any two states? As has been said - events and the perceived view of a society.

W

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:18 PM

I DID!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:09 PM

Come on, man. You have to ask why those countries would get a wee bit ticked off at the USA??? Get real. ;-D

You been living under a stone for the last few decades or what?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:43 PM

fydtswdchgfdrtyguihojpkwzerxtcygu

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM

Countries don't hate countries; people hate people and governments, for whatever reason seems best to them.

There are two very different countries on the Korean Peninsula; many of the people in North Korea hate Americans, although very few have ever met one, because that is the way their government has taught them to think over the past 55 years. On the other hand, few of those in South Korea (and I have personally met many) hate Americans, because they have had close contacts with Americans over the past 55 years and their nation is a close trading partner of ours. Some don't care much for the current government of the US, but that is equally true of many citizens of the US.

Much the same is true of Iraqis; individuals don't necessarily hate individuals but, as a group, they hate what the US has done, and is doing, in their country. They notice the reconstruction, of course, but realize that it is largely a result of the destruction of the past few years - and the fact that much of it was not done by the American (or allied) military in the first place, but rather by people fighting the Americans, is largely irrelevant to them. Jihadies are a different case, of course, but they tend to hate all "Crusaders", Americans only slightly more than others.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:19 PM

The school yard is full of kids that hate the bug bully.

Barry

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM

I doubt they have the same reasons. I know that some more traditional cultures, which the world is still full of, don't necessarily hate us but see us, rightly I would say, as degenerate, with drugs, teen pregnancies, STDs and AIDs crippling and killing populations and they don't want to go down that path, which they most likely will if they adopt too many of our practices aka freedoms. Young people out of control, wasted on meth, often violent, often in jail. As I have said before, they do not want little Fatma or Kim Su Yung to follow in the footsteps of our teen idols such as Brittney, Paris etc. They probably don't want filth like South Park broadcast into their homes or listen to rap lyrics full of abuse and violence. The tyrants of course don't want to lose power and financial benefits to themselves. The politically enthusiastic don't want to lose systems they have fought and died to defend and/or set up. Some of course don't want to exchange guaranteed life support (and I would probably be one of them) for the risk inherent in a different system. But I think the moral degeneration is a huge factor and one that is not discussed enough. To say they "hate us because we are free" is not sufficient. To say they hate us because we are arrogant is not sufficient. To say they hate us because we seem to hate ourselves and why not jump on the bandwagon is not sufficient but it is a factor. There is of course economic jealousy of us and those who have made it here and I bet whole big bunches of those who "hate" us would certainly like to be here nevertheless. It is complex of course. mg

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:59 PM

Events dear boy, events

Subject: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:58 PM

why?