Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?

Subject: RE: BS = Big Sewer
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 10:15 PM

Thanks Mary,

I'm glad that you do.

Don

Subject: RE: BS = Big Sewer
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 10:14 PM

Actually Guest, Sinsull (Mary) sellected it from many in a case of bracelets I took to OLD SONGS just for her to choose from the money went directly to me to supply me with more raw materials so that I may continue in business. That way I can support myself and my family and pay taxes and live the American Dream. One small part of the SA,erican Dream for me is to support a place where like minded people can meet and exchange any old idea that comes their way. Be it scholarly musings or ordinary chit chattery.

Don,Still not shamed or embarrassed by my own name,Meixner

Subject: RE: BS = Big Sewer
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:58 PM

dON,
pROBABLY NOT THE BEST PLACE TO SAY THIS...BUT i LOVE MY BRACELET. Thank you.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS = Big Sewer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:57 PM

Apologies, it must have been the cooking sherry. I just realized, on closer inspection, that Mudcat is currently enjoying cradle to the grave music threads, connected by the Gulf Coast Highway. There is the aforementioned thread on a lullaby, and the nursing home gigs thread.

BTW, has everyone sent in their email for the free case of vanilla coke yet?

Subject: RE: BS = Big Sewer
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:47 PM

The Big Sewer, A song about a fat Tailor?

Subject: RE: BS = Big Sewer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:43 PM

Thanks for responding Big Mick. Now this thread has actually surpassed the number of posts in the "Box Top Sendaways" thread. I can't imagine why. Especially considering the killer competition over there in the "Why do Men Wear Socks with Sandals" thread.

The one and only saving grace is the "Todays the day we give babies away" thread. If it weren't for that one, I think the monster aliens who stealthily make crop circles while we aren't looking, would have crushed us by now.

Subject: RE: BS = Big Sewer
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:19 PM

And you started several of them.

Please folks, ignore our resident pschopath. Don't let this thread get to 5 posts.

Mick

Subject: BS = Big Sewer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:12 PM

Just logged in, and the top 10-15 threads are idiotic and/or nauseating BS threads, and precious little content of any sort (including music) worth reading.

This place just keeps going from bad to worse, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 08:36 PM

This is day job vu all over again.

Anyone remember the infamous condom thread? It was my intention, then, to point up the ridiculousness of 90% of the non-music threads and also to push for a moderator on this forum. Max wouldn't hear of it then and he won't now I'm pretty sure. We can always go over to that other mostly music site --- the one with a moderator --- but I'd still be looking in here at M'cat to see what you nuts are into or in a snit about. I guess I'd be bored at an all music site after experiencing Mudcat. I felt that way at the now gone Ballad-List site. Is that sad? No, not really. Just what is!!! It's never been easy to keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Pareeeee----or even Las Vegas --- or The Wisconsin Dells or that mediocrity of all mediocrities, BRANSON, Missouri. As I'm fond of saying lately, "The more things change, the more they get really schlocky.

Love,

Art Thieme

---

OK, this is the current fight thread. I'm not going to tolerate having a dozen contentious threads refreshed and cooking, all at the same time. I'll transfer some messages posted today in other threads, just to keep everything together. Please note that most of the recent Guest posts are all from the same person, although he/she has used several different pseudonyms in the last couple days.
Please remember that it is considered bad form at Mudcat to post to troll threads or to respond to trolls in any way. You may have the best intentions in the world, but ifyou respond to trolls, you're not helping the situation.
Somebody above asked for a specific policy about obscenity and censorship and all that. Sorry, but we're not going to bite that carrot. The policy is that we expect Mudcatters to police their own behavoir and act with some degree of civility toward one another. When chaos erupts, we'll deal with it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: smallpiper
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 03:28 PM

This is all very sad, very sad indeed (and no doubt I will be attacked for saying that). If we can't agree to disagree then we're stuffed and whats the point anyway? I am truly sorry that so many people have taken offense to this and other threads. For my part I am sorry if any contributions I have made may have caused offense. I am however not sorry that there is a difference between male and female perceptions, about what amuses us etc. I have been the victim of male bashing on many occasions - working (when I do) in a predominantly female area of work and I know what its like to be on the recieving end. It still makes me feel sad. Now fuck off the lot of you and do something more constructive with your time!!

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 03:05 PM

Sharon, I'm not suggesting that women should "drop the matter," I'm suggesting that we should all drop the matter. The original threads were stupid and offensive, and this thread is merely adding fuel to the fire.

I wasn't going to get involved in this, but something katlaughing said in her post of 14-Aug-02 - 05:06 PM resonated with me, and I felt I needed to put my two cents in. I know Sandy Paton from years ago. I've never met Caroline. Nor have I met Jean Ritchie. But the thought of someone whom I respect as highly as I do these people stumbling into this particular kind of wrangle makes me a bit ashamed for the Mudcatters who participate. At this point, I would not recommend Mudcat to people whom I respect because of the nature of so many of the threads, including this one.

My suggestion was that if someone starts an offensive thread, PM them. Don't turn it into an open battle.

I just want to see this stop, so this is the last I will contribute to this thread.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:41 PM

Dave Bryant: Your analogy might fly if paddymac had ever come back to post a statement saying that he didn't mean to be offensive or demeaning toward women. However, his posting history indicates that his August 12th statement that I referred to above, to the effect that anyone who didn't see his "feminine shaves" thread as beautiful or humorous is some sort of an "-ist", was his most recent post to date. I'm not "standing on a chair" straining to see something that isn't there; the only thing that isn't there is another post from paddymac. I must conclude that he intended to be provocative, and it worked; some of us have been provoked to anger!

I'm really disappointed by some of the posts from male Mudcat members that I'm seeing here; if the comparatively liberal folk community thinks that women should "drop the matter" and put-up-and-shut-up rather than speak out when they feel they're being degraded as a group, then maybe our culture isn't so far removed from that of Chaucer's day after all.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM

No one speaks for me, but me, period. Enough of this. Anyone here interested in music? I just got a great new CD of Chinese hammer dulcimer music....gorgeous!

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:34 PM

...ah my dear GUEST. You and I both know that your only intention is merely to acquire and exercise POWER in our little forum.

The assumption that women in this forum have to be rescued from degradation by your convoluted rhetoric is most amusing.

But since it is part of your POWER game it could be any issue. The real thrill is indeed in the "mallett and the dance". That is precisely what psychopathy is about. I have wearied of this, your current choice of topics to manipulate the mudcat brethren.

However, I will continue to expose your POWER game and your antisocial behavior. Though I must remind myself that whenever one takes on a psychopath, one must be prepared to be robbed of something, be it time, money, or a host of other valuables. hg

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 01:00 PM

It says something about human nature that this thread seems to have become more "degenerate" than the original thread (which I only found by virtue of this one) and which I found mildly amusing in parts. It's possible to find something reprehensible in most threads (and in many traditional songs), but the more fuss you make about something, the more you adverise them.

I am reminded of the old lady who called the police to complain about the pub opposite where she could see the men using the urinals. When the constable arrived he looked out of her window and said that he could see nothing wrong. "oh", the old lady said, "if you stand the chair on the table and climb up onto it .............".

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM

BEWARE! I am about to use one of George Carlin's forbidden words!

I question the judgment and maturity of someone who deliberately uncorks a loud fart in church.

I also question the judgment and maturity—and, perhaps, the motives—of those who feel impelled to leap up and call everybody else's attention to it.

If someone feels that action should be taken, instead of further pewing up the pews, I would suggest speaking to the farter directly, if possible. Failing that, make your protest known to someone who can do something about it, (that would be Max, Joe Offer, or Pene Azul) and leave it to their judgment as to whether or not to do something. That, in practical terms, is all you really can do. Then, drop the matter.

Anything more (such as this thread) merely adds to the problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:34 PM

Well said, Skipjack. Thank you for pointing out the real reason this thread was started. You said in a few words what I have been trying to say with many.

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:30 PM

This page is a bit like Bedlam. Guest the Warder kindly hits the poor named creatures that are chained to this thread, on the head with a stout mallet, so you dance on the end of your chains for the entertainment of Guests friends.

Oh God, now I've touched the golden goose..........

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM

BTW Amos--who is the "pal" whose concerns you have (contempuously?) addressed? I wasn't asking that you address mine. I was merely pointed out that you hadn't addressed Nicole's and SharonA's for example. Perhaps if you wish to address their concerns, you could do it by actually using their names.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:25 PM

We're trying to overcome our history Amos, not repeat it in perpetuity. I for one am not willing to return to the social rules of Chaucer's day regarding the treatment of women. Or even the social rules of post-WWII 1950s, for that matter. We want people to treat women with MORE respect, not the same amount of respect (in other words, little to none) that was offered them in the past.

Invoking the history of sexism as justification for it in this forum just won't wash with a lot of us.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:18 PM

Okay, let's talk about the woes of humans who stereotype each other based on gender.

It is a sad but unavoidable fact that penises, vulvas, and mammary glands, and the remarkable electricity that gets generated about them, have caused more confusion, melodrama, and bullshit throughout our history than any other single aspect of human existence.

One side effect of this tomfoolery on parts is that a huge legacy of jokes on all those topics has developed, from the earliest days of Chaucer on forward.

There may well be as many jokes about male parts, and male stupidity, as there are about female ones.

Now consider the fact that 99.9 per cent of the human race belongs to one of these camps or the other, or perhaps even both, there is a very low probability that you will be able to avoid running into some sort of generic humor that is about your personal parts. In other words, I have to put up with a lot of dick jokes, and men are beasts jokes, and the stupidity of people with dangly bits jokes. And other people have to put up with a lot of jokes about other parts.

If I were to take these things personally, I would be a double-idiot.

In general people do LESS stereotyping the more discriminating and intelligent they get. MORE discrimination between things that are actually different, even if somewhat similar, is a key symptom of intelligence, as well as maturity. So the kind of "blind stereotyping" of people by their gender which some have found so "offending" is (when it actually happens) likely to be a sign of stupidity. However, the sauce for the gander applies -- it is also stupid to identify relatively innocent humor with the bogies of 'male chauvinist pig-ism' because someone makes a reference to a body part.
Parts is parts, folks, to quote a famous poet. Get used to it, because it is not going to change. No matter hopw electrical those parts may get, it makes very little sense to invest yourself in melodrama on their account. If you have nothing better to worry about, best review your assumptions.

Finally, the same principle of intelligent discrimination also applies to the decision to take offense. Make no mistake, it is a decision. If you exercise your right to be offended, based on associating ANY reference to your penis or vulva with ALL sexual bias and stupidity, then I am very sorry but you are being just as mindless as those you are accusing. I would think we could find more important, meaningful, or productive things to be offended by than that. Things that too often do not get mentioned at all, like the perfidious corrosion of spiritual values in modern media.

There ya go, pal -- your issue has been addressed.

Refer to earlier instructions of 13-Aug-02 - 04:08 PM. I'm unsubscribing from any more of this wankery.

A

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:18 PM

I noted both your and kendall's support yesterday Big Mick, in several posts. From here on out Big Mick, I'm going to follow your advice, and ignore your and harpgirl's (and anyone else's) posts making me the subject of the thread, instead of the issue at hand.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:17 PM

The GUEST of 15-Aug-02 - 03:31 AM says, "I STILL don't see how that thread ["forms of feminine shaves"] is demeaning to women."

From my point of view, one thing that is demeaning about it is the males' objectification of women's genitalia: the terms "beaver", "muff" and "twat" were used by a couple of male posters there (and the discussion about it in this thread prompted the use of the term "uncarpeted basement"). And objectification is what pornography is all about.

Another demeaning thing is Mr. Happy's "very tasty" comment that I mentioned previously; I did not know about its being an advertising jingle, but I'm sure that Mr. Happy was not referring to breakfast cereal or vegemite when he posted it, but rather making a sexual reference. Even Big Mick's description of paddymac's original post as a "tongue in cheek" effort might be interpreted as a sexual reference within the context of that thread's subject matter.

Again, as Peg had said on the "shaves" thread, its original intent seems to be voyeuristic and titillating in nature, intended to generate responses that men can "get off on" such as the comments about how the shaved female genital area looks and feels and smells as compared to the unshaved female genital area.

Finally, I see a demeaning attitude in paddymac's question, in his second post to the "shaves" thread, "What kind of '-ists' see neither beauty nor humor in the thread?" This implies that those of us who find the tone of his original post objectionable should be labeled and dismissed, and indeed on this thread the term "humorless prude" and the adjectives "over-picky" and "whining" have been used as dismissive labels. And labeling people is demeaning behavior.

Perhaps if men were sexually assaulted and abused as often as women are, men would better understand how demeaning it feels to have one's genitals talked about as if there weren't a human being attached to them.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:17 PM

LOL!! "Hippie Chick has spoken" I like that!

From: Big Mick Date: 15-Aug-02 - 11:42 AM "Ladies and Gentlemen, do you see the subtle way the person who started this thread is trying to turn it into a "we-they" game."

Yes, Mick, I caught that. The opinions stated here are not necessarily indicative of a desire to choose up sides for a "we-they" game. I, for one, have no interest in going there. 'nuff said and 'nuff read. I'm going back to the music sites.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM

Nice try, but your bigotry still shines through. As I said in another thread, what you are speaks louder than what you say you are. Your attempt to make this an "us/them" thing is failing. First off, you refuse to acknowledge the men that agree with the predicate. If you truly were interested in the subject, you would acknowledge that. But that doesn't work for you because the same men who agree that the thread is off base, the same men who object to the characterizations of women in purely sexual terms, the same men who thini the line was crossed,...........these are the same men who object to you on the basis of your real intent. So you just ignore them.

You are very transparent. To answer your original question, the answer is no. But because we are unmoderated, and because we are mere mortals, sometimes mistakes get made. Better to acknowledge the mistake and learn from it, apologize to the offended parties, and move on. That is what one does when their motives are sound. What you do is what one does when their motives are less than honorable.

Let me apologize to the offended women here. I absolutely agree with you that this thread crossed a line. It offended me, even though I know the man that posted it did so in a tongue in cheek fashion to make a point. But that does not excuse in any way the offense that was taken and I am very sorry that it happened. I hope that my brothers will take a lesson from the posts that have been spawned. These are not "harmless" quips between adults. Women know the heartbreak of having their entire identity predicated on their gender instead of what resides within. Women know the hurt of having self worth determined by an ideal that they had nothing to do with creating. I for one, refuse to participate in this shit, and I would hope that we have learned from these threads. The fact that this one was spawned by a vindictive person with an agenda proves that good can come out of bad.

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM

Hippiechick, there is one aspect of this you are conveniently leaving out of the equation, and that is the community aspect. The women who have objected to the presence of said subject matter for male gratification have all said this is their community too. They have stated their anger, their hurt, their shock, etc. quite clearly, and I do not presume to speak for them. They are doing just fine without my help. What I hear them saying is they aren't happy with the way the community is treating them, and/or the way the community is presenting itself to the world, especially the online folk music community.

If the Mudcat forum truly is to be the great community it is so often claimed to be by the very members engaged in this debate, then the status quo is clearly going to have to change. Yes, it is Max's website. If he wants to let men post vulgar and offensive sexually explicit threads which several female members of the community have objected to, then that shall be the final word.

Certain community members are already presuming that since Max hasn't intervened, the female community members who have voiced objections must accept the status quo. If we are to accept Joe Offer's inserted remarks to this thread as "the final word" on the subject, then I agree with you Hippiechick, people who wish to remain members of this community must accept men will continue to be allowed to post vulgar and offensive sexually explicit threads which demean a least a portion of the female community here.

Now, I think if we don't hear anything to the contrary in the next day or so, we can all safely presume that will be the status quo supported by Max, and there is nothing any of us can do to change that.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:54 AM

Big Mick, even if every word you were saying was true, it still wouldn't change the fact that the offending thread was started by a well-liked male Mudcat member. Offending posts were contributed by well-liked male Mudcat members. A thread mocking the people who objected to the proliferation of titillating sex threads for men in the past week or so, was started by a well-liked male Mudcat member, and is being fueled by several other well-liked male Mudcat members.

No one is addressing the content of Nicole's post today.

No one is addressing the content of kat's posts.

No one is addressing the content of Guest KT's posts.

Take me out of the equation Big Mick, and Mudcat still has a big problem. Again, you are simply trying to make me the subject of the thread, to deflect criticism, and sweep this neatly under the rug. Before you try and shut down this thread, maybe you should ask if everyone is prepared to accept the status quo here.

If Nicole, kat, Guest KT, Peg, SharonA all say they want all discussion of this matter to go no further, and wish to see it dropped in the interest of preserving the peace and shoring up the status quo for the so-called community, I'll abide by that.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:51 AM

Dear disgusted Guest,

I understand your pique at the vulgarity and apparent disregard for women here. If I read such threads it is to make sure that I am not misunderstanding the title or the intent of the first (or so)posts. I regard it just as I do the television offerings. If I don't like it, don't watch it. Writing letters to advertisers and program executives isn't really the same as posting one's ire here on a thread. Threads are discussions; complaints should be made to the boss/manager/whoever. My protest against vulgarity is to have my own site that strictly prohibits such meaningless drivel. I welcome general chat, but stuff like *penis jokes* are prohibited. That's MY site. This one belongs to MAX. Your continuing complaints on a discussion thread IMHO constitute railing in vain, beating a dead horse.....you see what I mean. I respect your views, and perhaps agree with them, but repeating them over and over and over is not convincing anyone and apparently giving you indigestion. Cyclic, that is to say.

Hippie Chick has spoken

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:49 AM

...dear GUEST...are you still attempting to manipulate with your antisocial and divisve rhetoric? I find your intrustion into this forum far more objectionable than the foolish comments of some of our imperfect male members! You are an outsider and I for one have no interest in taking up your psychopathic call to arms! I know what you are about. hg

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:46 AM

Nicole,

Well said. Since you borrowed my adjectives, I feel impelled to clarify what I was complaining about and characterizing with them. It was not anyone's objecting per se, even on arguable grounds; it was not even anyone having an opinion, for goodness' sake!! If the invisible whinger had just laid out clearly what he was saying, in his opinion, as you have done in clear direct (and preferably signed) prose, I would have left it at "cheers -- thanks for your opinion". But he she chose other styles of communication which regardless of gender, issue or message are styles I find offensive. I do not like moralizing, whining, and covert indirectness in communication. ANd I find certain kinds of stupidness offensive ESPECIALLY when the notion is being promulgated that I should subscribe to them myself. I value people who are capable of having an opinion, even one I disagree with. If the elements I find objectionable are not obvious to you, as they are to me, chalk it up to difference of opinion.
But my adjectives had nothing to do with the opinion ppresumably extant somewhere behind the slyness. Nor do I subscribe to the Fuckoffbitch school of thought which you identify as operating on these threads -- a characterization, I might add, which is just as guilty of gender stereotyping as the sexism you are protesting against!

Thanks for your well-written thoughts. I enjoyed them.


A

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:42 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen, do you see the subtle way the person who started this thread is trying to turn it into a "we-they" game. And she neatly, after sniping at kat and others many times, now tries to act like she is part of the sisterhood against the rest of us. Her post, several back, starts with "We want" as if to imply that somehow she is now really just an advocate for women and speaks for more than herself. She is pretty good. But here is a news flash for you. No one, women or men, is falling for it. You could care less about the subject, your real goal is to try and divide us, turn folks on "Joe, Max, and Pene Azul". You are not even good. By the way, I notice that once again, when someone gives a reply that flies in the face of your gratuitous statements, you just ignore those and act as if your predicate was still correct. You did it with my posts.

Look, folks. Nicole said it all. This comes down to simply using your head, and being a bit respectful. It isn't a male against female thing. Those of you who know me, Bill D, Jeff, Rick Fielding, and many others, know that we don't operate on those levels. I am not sure why I looked at the shaving thread, but I did and didn't like what I saw. I said immediately that I felt as though it should go. I still haven't opened the "jiggles" thread. The title of this thread says it all. Anyone who has been here more than a minute knows that the title is preposterous. And it speaks clearly to the intent of the GUEST who started it. She is malicious and couldn't care less about "the sisterhood". She is a pathetic person feeding on the only attention she gets by creating discord. Don't fall for it. Just leave it die.

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:39 AM

*sigh*....I tried to phrase my post in a way that would address the general concern...I posted because I CARE, but simply do not have time to go thru and respond to every point one by one.

If you are determined to continue your complaints, I can no more stop you than I can those who offend you...My point is that loaded language about "bitch slapping" etc. is counter-productive....I talk to katlaughing often, and 'may' see Sharon A. in person this weekend...we shall see what develops..

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:29 AM

well...I hit something wrong...I had no idea I posted that before I finished typing..perhaps the first post will be deleted

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST,Really damn disgusted
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:28 AM

BillD, why aren't you discussing this subject with kat? With Nicole? With Peg? With Guest KT? Why are you ignoring their objections, and focusing solely on the one guest?

Several women members and fairly regular guests have voiced their concerns about the proliferation of sexually titillating adult subject matter in the forum. They have asked that it be stopped, out of courtesy to them. The response has been to ignore them, mock them, and especially in regards to my posts, slap us down. It is easy to bitch slap the guest nobody likes, when you can't get away with bitch slapping kat and Nicole and SharonA isn't it? But you are sending them a veiled threat by doing so. And a not so very veiled threat in the all male thread "Seven Words..."

Don't worry BillD. I'm guessing the other women are able to read between the lines of the men's messages to us, just as I am. If we complain about degrading, humiliating treatment at the hands of assholes in this forum, nothing is going to be done about it. The "community standard" for behavior is quite obvious to me. One standard for the men, one standard for the women, and if the women don't like it, well don't let the screen door hit you on the way out.

Right fellas? I'm sure you all feel VERY powerful now. In the Mudcat forum, you aren't just powerful, you are the rule of law.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 11:21 AM

Max HAS said what his position is...it is to make the tech stuff work so that we can use this forum...he said specifically that our job is to learn to play nice! Joe Offer has taken the un-enviable task of deleting the most egregious threads...and has spoken out repeatedly about posts of bad taste which he didn't feel needed deleting!

You seem not to understand that, short of censorship, there is NO way to stop posting in an open forum! I am displeased with many post/threads too, and have said so (and a couple of times in PMs to the offending party when I could identify them)..but there are hundreds of regular posters with **different** ideas of what is funny, clever and rude, and frankly, I do not have the time to keep objecting.

Big Mick has said over & over & over that IGNORING them, as you would do when subjected to rude remarks on the street is the best, if not the most satisfying, technique!

I wish you were not 'anonymous'...it would be easier to debate/discuss this with a person, and not a ghost...but...*shrug*...(if you want to PM me privately, I would try to share some ideas gained thru over 40 years of respecting women and still recognizing my male perspective on what some of the offensive jokes and remarks are about.)

If you prefer to remain anon., please just try to understand that the complaints begin to be the issue, rather than the original remarks!! Demanding 'official' stands from the management is TRULY counter-productive, as NO 'official' stand would make a difference without censorship. Someone who, 2 months from now, is about to type a remark that YOU will find offensive will NOT go read a FAQ or analyze the 'guidance' perma-threads!

I like the Mudcat---have been here since the beginning, and have met Max, Joe Offer and many others LIVE, and I KNOW that they want it to be a good place. I also know that it is impossible to make it please everyone!

.....and I guarantee that righteous indignation, no matter how often expressed, will never cure the problems!

Still...you have every right to post your objections, just as those you object to will sometimes post more stuff.....

you pays yer money, you takes yer choice....

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST,Really damn disgusted
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 10:39 AM

We aren't looking for censorship BillD, or at least I'm not. Not once have I said I wanted the offending thread deleted. What I have said is that it would be appropriate for the Mudcat official(s), be it Max or Joe Offer or Pene Azul, to establish a clear position on the posting of titillating adult sexual content BS, which has no relation to the music. That they post that position in a new thread, and in the FAQ.

It is really hurtful to see the glee some of the men are taking now, mocking the women who have objected to the subject matter in the shaved female genitalia thread. You are mocking us in this and several other threads. RichM started and quite a few men are contributing to the "Seven Words You Can't Say in Mudcat" thread, which was begun out of spite for our complaining that we thought the men had really crossed over the line of respect and manners on this line.

This forum is really starting to look like a community for good ole boys who only want to talk to women members on THEIR terms, and whose rights to demean and degrade us whenever they feel like it must be protected at all costs.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 10:30 AM

...censorship is a slippery slope.....

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST,Was Pretty Damn Disgusted
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 10:16 AM

Ah, sniping from the gallery. That is certain to help.

Well, I've just finished rereading the entire thread here, and I think I may have spoken too soon. Don't get me wrong, I am heartened by the responses of the women in this thread particularly. But upon rereading the thread, I also so Joe Offer's inserted comments. He said above:

"there were a number of crude and stupid threads started in the last day or two, and the shaving thread was one of them. I didn't consider deleting them, but I think they're better left unread. Still, crude and stupid people must have an outlet for self-expression..."

That's it? That is the extent of the "official" Mudcat response? So Joe, we are just supposed to shut up and take the abuse, so crude and stupid people can have an outlet for "self-expression"?

That hurts. What a slap in the face to the women who have expressed their opinions on this subject!

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 10:00 AM

Thanks, Nicole and KT, well-said.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:50 AM

Oh good - that's a relief to us all

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST,Was Pretty Damn Disgusted
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 09:28 AM

But I'm heartened by Nicole, KT, SharonA, Peg, and kat's contributions here.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 08:43 AM

Right on, Nicole. I agree with every single word you just said in your most recent post.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: open mike
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 06:46 AM

but this thread title did catch the attention of many-members and guests as well....

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 03:48 AM

oops. That last post was mine.....

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 03:46 AM

I haven't read all of the threads in question but I have read this one and get the general idea of what's going on in the others.

I disagree with those who've said the guest who started this thread has been outspoken about this merely to generate negative energy. I could be wrong, but I don't read that as this person's intent at all. I think that person has made an honest attempt to explain why certain threads are offensive and would like to see that changed. There's nothing wrong with that. It seems to me that it's coming from a place of caring about the forum, rather than just trying to stir up trouble.

Here's what I'm wondering. It's obvious that some of the posts in some of these threads are offensive to some, for whatever reasons, not the least of which is regard for the kids who may be lurking. Why is it so difficult to tone it down a little bit then? When we're in the company of others, don't we try to regard others' feelings as a matter of courtesy? What's so tough about that? To be courteous is not the same as saying you agree with the offended parties. It's just being courteous.

kat brought up the attractiveness of this site to some of the older folks. I think that's a very important point. If they were to stop in for a visit and express discomfort with some of the things they found here, I would like to think that they and their opinions would be regarded with respect. That said, I think that most of the folks can look at these things and realize that the posts in the threads are a reflection of the individual who posted them, rather than the forum in general.

Whether or not a particular thread or post is offensive to certain readers is one thing, but even more significant, IMO, is the reflection of the caliber of the poster, by the words he or she chooses to use.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 03:31 AM

Regarding shave thread:
The "very very tasty" comment was a quote from an advert for some breakfast cereal (at least in UK) - so it was a tongue in cheek quip - and probably related to my (admittedly ill-advised) vegemite comment rather than anything much more salacious.
And I STILL don't see how that thread is demeaning to women.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 02:36 AM

The more I think about this thread, the more it pisses me off. In response to the recent spate of sexually explict threads and threads degrading to women, quite a few registered members who happen to be women have expressed their opinions.

NONE of them advocate censorship.

NONE of them suggest eliminating all off-topic posts.

NONE of them advocate the elimination of all sexual references.

ALL of them have politely asked that the line not be crossed. You know where that line is. You don't need to argue about it. To be old-fashioned, it's called behaving as if you were in mixed company.

On the other hand, we have a handful of men (not all, by any means) who's response is "fuck off, bitch, we'll say what we want because we're a *community.* Suck it up or go away if you don't like it!"

Members of a community respond to each others desires by moderating thie public behavior. Reacting to a polite request by blaming the other person for asking is just rude and unneighborly.

I have news for you: but just going away is not an option. There is nowhere on this planet that women can go and not be subjected in some form or another to this cultural disease that treats women like some sort of speaking livestock and men like horny herdsmen, whether it be the restaurant with ESPN2 turned up loud and a horde of men jeering at scantily clad female athletes or the guy at work at the next desk that does the same job, but gets paid 25% more.

Women have the disease, too. Most of us go from day to day pretending to not notice or are so desensitized that we really don't pay much attention -- and women are guilty of the same behavior sometimes. It's not going to magically go away and no one is asking for that. We're asking for people to think before they open their month or start typing.

At least where I grew up, that was called being mannerly, regardlesss of what you may think or do in private.

Those who have stated their objections to this kind of behavior within this community are not wrong or "prudish" or "condescending, moralistic, humorless, whining and self-serving" for HAVING AN OPINION. But it says reams about the attitudes of those who fail to even consider another's feelings.

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 12:47 AM

"Yo-ho, yo-ho a perverts life for me"

If you want to stop offending people - especially with thread names - stop using the "BS" Think about how many people find that objectionable.

I am worried about children visiting the site. I do reccommend the site to many adults who are interested in folk music, but I would NEVER suggest it to a kid under 15 or so who is, say, doing a report on Folk/Blues music. At least not without telling their parents first to mention that there are subjects discussed here that are not kid appropriate.

That being said, WHO CARES? I still get a kick out of the fact that people love to complain about stuff they have absolutely NO POWER to change. Why don't you spend the time you've wasted on this and all the other threads on which you whine and GET A JOB. You might make enough money to be able to afford the set up your own rival Folk Music Site where you will actually have a right to say how the owner run it.

The "GUEST" who started this thread is identical to the ones who start the objectionable threads he/she/it complains about. They want to generate NEGATIVE energy. It's just like that energy species on the original Star Trek series that feeds on emotions and knows that making people angry is the best way to "pig out." Come on, if Shatner understood that, certainly more of us Mudcatters should...

yeesh.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 11:54 PM

porn is not the same as gratuitous crudity and vulgarity---as in 'folk music', the line is often muddy.

and regarding threads about 'male' genitalia...it should not be any different, but it is....society just makes it that way! A woman could go out on a street corner and flash...(exhibitionism) and get 'mostly' grins and shrugs....but a man would be VERY quickly reported and arrested.. Men's genitalia is treated as threatening and somehow more 'immoral'(yes, for some good reasons)...but....

Subject: RE: Mudcat Cafe: New Folk Music Porn Site?
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 11:05 PM

Funny -- I fail to see the connection between "female personal grooming" and "porn"...

Michael