The Key to All US war strategy

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:22 PM

Suicide terrorists would not share your concerns

Suicide terrorists aren't afraid for their own lives, but they do what they do in order to accomplish a goal. If the goal is removed, there is no point in them doing what they do. I think they are probably pretty aware of that.

The small pox vaccine has been found to be effective in smaller doses than people previously expected. They are saying that it can be used to vaccinate maybe three to five times more people than was previously believed. However, if large numbers of people all over the world are killed, it will not be possible to wage the kind of terrorism that you are talking about. 'Fundamental' Islam may not have any need for western civilization, but the kind of terrorism you're talking about cannot operate without it.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:14 PM

http://www.hopkins-biodefense.org/

the American Society for Microbiology at http://www.asmusa.org/pcsrc/bioprep.htm

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM

Suicide terrorists would not share your concerns. The US has between 7-15 million doses of small pox vaccine. This is proportionally less than the number of lifeboats on the Titanic. When we thought small pox was eradicated world wide, millions of small pox vaccine doses were destroyed.

'Fundamental' Islam has no need for western civiliztion. Truly I have no intention to demonize. It is just an alien mind set for many to comprehend. For example; an "unjust and tryannical government" to a fundamental muslim is ANY government that is not based on fundamental Islam. To us it means something nearly the opposite.

There are undoubtedly many threats and blackmail tactics that we are not told about. We may be trying to fulfill some of them while buying time bombing $1,000 buildings with million dollar bombs.

Let me post a link to small pox that includes my prior reference to our simulation of small pox attack this last June called Operation Dark Winter.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:12 PM

One more thing. If someone like Bin Ladin is trying to destroy civilization, as some have suggested, success would also be failure. Bin Ladin and the terrorist networks depend upon civilization to accomplish their goals. If they were to be successful in destroying civilization, they would become nothing more than petty local warlords.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:01 PM

About the small pox, I'm having some difficulty understanding how anyone who wants victory over someone else, us or them, would think that using a contagious disease will help them get it. It's likely to cause as many problems for them as it is for us.

I'm sure, if someone did decide to use it, they would have their key people vaccinated, but it's unlikely that they would be able to have very many of the rank and file and local populace vaccinated. Certainly not in a place like Afghanistan. Or Somalia.

And every war effort depends on many people besides the officers. People who wage war depend upon many every day citizens for support. Even the kind of bio terrorism that is spreading anthrax requires massive support from ordinary citizens. Without the thousands of postal workers who keep the mail moving, there would be no way to deliver the weapon.

Using small pox could kill a lot of people in the US, but it would also kill large numbers of people throughout the rest of the world. By destroying the support systems that the perpetrators would need to depend on to do any more damage, or to achieve supremacy, killing a sizable percentage of the world's population would, in the end, render them pretty ineffective in the long run. I don't see how anyone, even someone who appears to be thick, would think that small pox would be an effective weapon to use to achieve victory.

Also, the vaccine that we have on hand here in the US can be used as after-exposure protection. Even after exposure, recieving the vaccine can protect people from the disease. We have a pretty sizable supply of the vaccine available in the event of a small pox outbreak, and we're in the process of making more. Some people in the US would likely die, but probably not as many as the agressors might anticipate. If the contagious bio-terrorism were to be waged by people in a third world country, it's possible, maybe even likely, that they would sustain more casualties than us.

Keep in mind, also, that the terrorist networks are spread throughout counties all over the world, including the US. If we're thinking in terms of cancer, we had probably better change our analogy from that of a tumor that can be removed surgically, to a cancer that has metastasized to many parts of the body. With such a cancer, there is no surgical way to remove it. It has to be gotten rid of through other means.

One of the ways that is currently being experimented with is to cut off the blood supply that feeds the cancerous cells, but leaves the healthy cells intact. I think we can find ways to accomplish this with regard to the terrorist organizations as well.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:27 PM

Russia also has this technology. During the mass fires in Indonesia and Australia they volunteered its use but the help was turned down.

Although it is tested the outcomes are still somewhat unpredictable. Yes a drought could be ended but as a result a drought may then occur elsewhere.

There is still something almost spiritual [although a tradgedy for the innocent] about defeating an enemy so evil with something as pure as a snow flake or drop of rain from the heavens. It could be a weapon of biblical proportions in more ways than one.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:46 PM

Why not use this technology where there is drought and produce some rain in order to help people? Would it work that way or is that not feasible?

- LH

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:15 AM

About 200 tons of weaponized small pox virus has been created in the last 12 years. We made some, Russia made the most and now we are told to anticipate a release in the USA. The sin of making it is done. Now the act of using it sounds inevitable.
I was NOT speaking of the US using bio weapons. I was suggesting something entirely different...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:27 AM

So let's don't try to kill anybody with small pox, either.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:20 AM

It knows no borders, but neither does small pox.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:14 AM

You can't isolate out one area for a change in the weather. If you tamper with the weather in one region of the globe, there's no telling what it will do to the weather everywhere else.

Sounds like a nice idea if it could work without having a seriously negative impact on the rest of the world, but it just can't be done. Ask a meteorologist. It's all connected.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:10 AM

In lieu of finding part II I would like to pose an alternative war strategy. This thread was started before the component of biowar was thrown into the mix. At this time the US needs surprise and economy of warfare similar to that of its enemy.
Non violent means to wage a lethal war. It sounds like fiction but is more profound than you might first think. I have asked established pacifists if an ultimate weapon should be used and they say no. However when I give shape to this weapon, some have changed their mind.
For example: HAARP is a technology that heats the ionosphere and as a result can change atmospheric conditions by adding energy to weather systems. There are hundreds of links to this technology but none better than its patent statement. If we were to heat the atmosphere near Afghanistan, drawing moisture from the Arabian Sea and create snow storms 80+ feet deep upon the mountains we would bury bin laden all winter long and end the drought that Allah has seen fit to bestow upon Afghanistan.
The beauty here is that the US would not be realistically blamed for the weather but rather the natives would see it as a disapproving sign from God.
'If' it could work it would be radiation free but is not a precise "tactical" precipitation (mistakes could happen). An act of God - type weapon will still produce plenty of collateral damage stranding innocent and guilty alike. One could expect damage from eventual spring floods.
The weapon of water is fearsome and has been used in war for 1,000's of years by diverting rivers and destroying wells.
Bio war is considered a weapon of Allah as is Pakistan's atomic bomb commonly referred to as Allah's bomb. For the US to use God like weapons could be considered a symmetric response - whether or not small pox erupts in the US.
Please don't think me dark for mentioning that authorites estimate 10's of millions of US bio war deaths once contagious agents are employed. We need a response that is both devestating and more humanitarian than nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 06:17 PM

I appreciate the analysis from I,Hurricane and for the most part agree. I understand the point that CarolC is making re: not reacting out of blind emotion, wreaking havoc on truly innocent people, and ultimately 'inheriting the whirlwind'. Nevertheless for me there IS a strong emotional component and to deny it would be even greater folly. I know I'm not alone in this, I'm sure we are all in the same boat here. I think Donuel is dwelling too much on 'Bush as warmonger'. I was not a fan of GWB, but he's the leader of the moment, and it is not only he making the decisions here. I saw Rumsfeld on Meet the Press this (Sunday) morning and I think he was saying the right things. I think the US has shown proper forbearance to this point in marshalling her resources and determining just where the virus is.

To a great extent we all know each other. The terrorists who have penetrated the Western countries have quite successfully been ferreting out the points they see as 'weak' which are the very items we hold precious. We are aware of the intermingling of support and responsibility in the Middle East, the 'extremist' view that has taken so much support away from the moderates. It is quite easy to throw stones at attitudes but much harder to determine the black and white amongst the shades of gray. Someone will make that determination, and the rest of the world will critique it for a hundred years. I hope for the best.

I think the US administration has made an important point, correctly that the enemy is extremism regardless of the soil from which it is sprung. That is consistent with accepting the nature of America today and to come, which is that the US is and will be a multicultural experiment in world society, distinctly different from the rest of the world in that we embrace it and design our society around it.

In a terrible kind of way, this event will reinforce the vision of what the US stands for by putting in stark contrast the awful things that we are not. We've been at a bit of a loss since winning the Cold War, and these events may demonstrate that the American mission is far from over.

I don't think Donuel's description of the cowboy movie (at the outset of this thread) is an adequate model of the situation we are facing, but it is a great metaphor, if one truly knows the range of the genre. The cowboy movie is known throughout the world, and in fact was a greater propaganda tool than anything the Soviets were ever able to come up with. If Donuel has truly seen many of these, he/she should realize there is a tremendous amount of variety among the best of them, from 'High Noon' to 'Shane', to 'Cat Ballou', to 'Little Big Man'. When one knows some of the history surrounding the actual 'Wild West' period in US history, one can appreciate that even the cowboy movie has hues and shades.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

PART TWO of this thread can be found over here.

Please use it instead of this part.

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:49 PM

I'd be a tad more conservative than Donuel about citing what "all evidence" says. Unless I were in a highly priveleged intel position.

BTW -- STARTING CHAPTER TWO OF THIS THREAD -- hold on. It'll be there shortly.

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 05:13 PM

With the first post in this thread I predicted the Western metaphors that were to come. Indeed I am sick of them coming from the administraton but that is who bush is. He may have never been an expert in foreign relations but he was an expert executioner to the point of grinning about it when asked.

The metaphor that has come from within us all, quite naturally, is the "viral infection" we must now overcome.

All evidence point to the fact that Powell and his group was able to convince Rumsfeld and other hawks of the folly of whoesale execution - ergo the new war we must endure.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM

Marymac and Harpgirl, you bring up a crucial point. Women are not being consulted. They need to be. (Susan Sontag had something important to say.) Belicose white men are aggravating the problem by their indiscrimiate pronouncements. I'm sick of the sports and Western movie metaphors.

Here's the problem. How much of the Muslim community wants to differentiate themselves from the Taliban, Hezbollah, Hamas etc? That's a tight rope.

I reiterate that there is a difference between a police action and a purely military response. The first apprehends and punishes the guilty. The latter (war) punishes the innocent along with the guilty.

An international police force is necessary to protect lives throughout the world from the fanatics who favor death. (Paradise). We, as well as other countries, must now assume the role of policemen (and women) for the benefit of the world.

There ARE people we can talk to. These are the potential followers of the Taliban, Hezbollah,etc. cults. We need to do alot of talking to the wider true Muslim community, not the perverts. Potential recruits are poor people that have been disenfranchised by neglect for their well-being by many of the world's well-heeled countries. This is true in Saudi Arabia (through the misguided Gulf War in it's quest for oil) as well as arming the Taliban to fight the Soviets. Arming the Northern Alliance will be our next mistake. We need to talk a lot to the poor people of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Afghanistan, etc. etc. and show them that our way of life is obtainable for them. We have seen the future and it works. It's called American democracy.

Bin Laden is a world criminal. There are many more. A United Nations Police Force would be one important solution. This requires a lot of talking.

The people who yell the loudest about the glory of war have probably never been in battle. It takes more than anger to survive it.

Frank

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 10:26 AM

It works that way , win or lose. Winning allows you to keep a larger chunk of your warchest.

There is not a need to demonize the enemy as in previous wars. It was done for us. The military jargon among grunts in the Gulf war included terms such as , sand monkey , rag head and worse. In this war actions speak louder than words.

To attribute ones cultural bias to the average illterate muslim mind is a mistake. The differences are profound. In the west we have songs like onward Christian soldiers but no commandments to kill in scripture. In Islam there is the requirement to defend ones faith in a jihad if at all possible just as a pilgrimage to Mecca is "highly" reccommended.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 02:10 AM

Ok, DougR. But you might have to switch your party affiliation. I'll be running as the candidate for the "Don't waste your vote on me" party. I figure I can just get a whole bunch of money for the campaign and then lose, and then I won't have to actually do anything.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 01:33 AM

You got my vote, Carol!

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 12:13 AM

My guess is that most Muslims are more concerned with what is good for the world of Islam and for their fellow Muslims than they are with Bin Ladin. So my feeling is that any approach we take must differentiate between solving the problem of Bin Ladin as a source of terrorist activity, and Bin Ladin the Muslim.

My feeling is that if we focus on the fact of his being a Muslim, there will probably be more of a feeling among some Muslims that their faith needs to be defended. I suspect that if we focus on Bin Ladin as a terrorist leader, rather than as a Muslim, we would be less likely to create a situation in which Muslims would feel the need to defend their religion. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:37 PM

Well, good, CarolC, I hope you can help me stay calm. I figured I was reading the hawk side of the equation that they are reporting on. What bothers me is hoping I have not been deluding myself into believing that Muslim sympathy for the bin Laudin devil cannot run deep. The coalition building, as it is being reported to date, seems to bode well.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM

Actually, I,hurricane, I got a kick out of your analysis.

As far as the article by Daniel Pipes is concerned, I read it, and I was concerned by it also. I came very close to posting something about it then, but I didn't have the rational part of my psyche engaged at the time, so I decided it would be better for me to refrain from posting anything right away.

My take on the situation with him is that he is coming from a military perspective rather than from a diplomatic perspective. This dichotomy of perspectives seems to be a significant source of disagreement among our leaders about what needs to be done, and how best to do it.

Today, I heard a panel expert on a news program say that the military people run the risk of destroying the coalition if the approach they use is too heavy handed, but that the military people need the coalition in order to accomplish their goals. Interesting dilemma.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM

Well, I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you, CarolC, and I wouldn't try to put words in your mouth, either. I'm just trying, while sorting through all of this, to identify real disagreements that I would want to ponder further. (As if I'm not pondering enough . . . )

On that score, see the recent post in "Bush Speech II" - -discussing "War Strategy," including an article "What Bush got right - and wrong" By Daniel Pipes. It has me bothered.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:48 PM

This is kind of cool. Seeing my thoughts get analyzed here. I guess I don't have any fundamental disagreements with what you are saying I,hurricane, except for one thing.

It is my opinion that when we are dealing with a situation like the one that is currently unfolding on the world stage, we need to have the use of our brains so that we can make intelligent decisions, and ones that will actually help us in the long run, rather than causing more problems for us in the long run.

It is also my opinion that when we demonize anyone, regardless of what sorts of atrocities they have committed, we are engaging a part of our psyche that is driven by emotions, and is less capable of making intelligent choices than the part of our psyche that is engaged when we maintain a detached, rational thought process.

The idea is to recognise what sorts of problems we are dealing with and to find effective ways of solving them. If we get all caught up in emotions, it becomes a lot more difficult to see the problems and their solutions clearly.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:02 PM

You folks have no significant disagreement. CarolC says don't demonize what they look like. Robomatic says it's okay to demonize the Taliban for what they are and do.

No problem. Similarly, you can't reason with a virus. I don't believe anyone fundamentally disputes the analogy. Many get hot to trot over the "understanding" the enemy issue. Some of us don't care what the converted zealots believe, except in the way such understanding helps to deactivate their poisonous effects. But again, there's no substantial disagreement.

On a broader scale, there is the issue of understanding who in the Muslim world might sympathize with the terrorists' abominations. The innermost circle would be the Taliban. Then there are larger circles. I think we all agree that those pools provide the sustenance for the zealots' activities: They are the source of both safe harbor and recruits for the zealots. They are the problematic source of resistance to a forced resolution. Eradication of the primary noxious agent requires understanding at those levels as well, even more than understanding of the criminals' mindsets. HOWEVER, in the larger circles we are dealing with the more civilized (less uncivilized) aspects of the problem, not the converted zealots, so the "can't reason with a virus" analogy breaks down.

We can't effectively build coalitions with the governments of Muslim nations without understanding the nature of their issues with the governed populations. They are certainly hard to fathom in many particulars. CarolC's point, which may seem small at first blush, speaks to the larger, more abstract problem.

Hope that made sense. It does at the moment.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:43 PM

robomatic, I don't think anyone's defending the Taliban here. And I don't think it is in any way inappropriate for us to be mindful of the harm that our words can cause innocent people.

I don't think that the innocent people who have been hurt or killed (or their families) because of misplaced hatred are going to be comforted in the knowlege that their percentages are low compared to the total population.

Donuel, perhaps you would like to be my campaign manager and treasurer. How much money do you think you can raise? By the way, I'm not flying to any campaign appearances.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:12 PM

Consider what the Taliban have stood for in the past:

Requiring women to wear one restrictive form of dress and not be able to seek medical attention from male doctors.

Requiring all Muslims to worship God in one way only, because there is only one 'right' way.

Preparing legislation to require non-Muslims to wear distinctive markings.

Dynamiting the ancient works of another culture due to a misapplication of the definition of 'idol'.

And most recently:

Providing aide, comfort, and shelter to the leader of a far-flung terrorist organization which has now several times over the past few years performed deadly undiscriminating attacks against the United States and its allies.

So who is sexist, racist, and attempting to impose cultural imperialism here?

You want to demonize the bastards, be my guest.

I think when the returns are in, it will be admitted that there were comparitively few instances of discrimination per population count in the U.S. I've already witnessed dozens of instances through the media in which our attention is drawn to the need to realize the distinctions between Sikhs, Muslims, fanatics, etc.

Long before the tragic events of this month, news articles around the country have been 'preparing' us, if that is the right word, for the news that the U.S. is increasingly growing to look more like the rest of the world color-wise. This is a part of American life that I think we will grow to celebrate.

The Taliban and their ilk are indeed a sort of troll, although this is a gross insult to troll-dom and I do not wish to be politically incorrect more than necessary. They are a self-righteous, ill-informed, deadly virus, more similar in essence to the Khmer Rouge than to any other system of thought and belief. They are mired between dark ages superstition and hypocrisy. They have seized the tools of the modern world primarilly to destroy it, without accepting the principles of the world which made those tools possible. Yes, a kind of virus.

We know it's tough to kill off a virus. Sometimes you can only beat it down, but I don't know of any successful cases in which one could reason with a virus.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 08:56 PM

Carol, now it sounds like you are running for office more than ever.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:03 PM

Well it could offend the trolls of the world. But your speech is well-turned and well-taken, C.

In the center of balance, living in fear of others' misinterpretation is a nul principle.

Even in our own country, a lot of important publications including the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence have been grossly misunderstood. Didn't slow the authors down much.

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:58 PM

Maybe I'm losing my sense of humor then. A pity if it's true. But I do think it's worth remembering that a lot of people all over the world are reading our words here in this forum, and to try to be mindful of the ways they can cause harm unnecessarily. It didn't look like humor to me, and it might not look like humor to others. And some words can cause real harm.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

Gee Carol , what do have against the characters in the Hobbitt. With only one exception , they are far from demonic. But seriously with the racist vigilanti events in the US and around the world there will be an ongoing threat to Immigrant-Arabs/semtic/Indian/Mexican/less than white skinned people... no matter how much education is directed to this tragedy. There will always be those who worship at the feet of the statue of Bigotry but I am not among them.

but the guys I saw did look like trolls. *G*

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:57 AM

Carol, your point is well taken but I think he was just trying to make a joke.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:34 AM

Do you really think their appearance has anything to do with the way the Taliban conduct themselves?

And then there's the matter of the problems that come with linking physical appearance with the behavior of one specific group of people. Let's use as an example what is happening to people of the Sikh religion who are being persecuted because they look somewhat like Muslims.

There may be people in the world who look like those members of the Taliban, who have nothing to do with the activities of the Taliban. When you make their appearance an issue, you may be putting a lot of innocent people at risk.

And then there's the problem of demonizing your enemies. I believe that is one of the things that made it possible for the hijackers to do the heinous things that they did. They had demonized those of us in the US so they would not have to think of us as humans, and in that way, they could do inhuman things to us.

You can call it PC if you want. Personally, I just think it's common sense.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:28 AM

By the way the video image I refer to is the ruling council/congress of the Taliban all dressed alike in black robes and white turban with same length beards etc. and not the citizens. -clarification-as advised by council. Ms. Ann Thrax.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:25 AM

The Taliban members do NOT resemble me in the LEAST!
They do, however resemble certain artists of my acquaintance. Potters and sculptors mostly.

troll ***BG***

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

The statement by the Italian foreign minister is said to have been a translation mistake by a German translator.

The medal of honor* thing , I heard on one of the 3 CNN stations I leave on throughout the day. Also any veteran hurt or killed in the attacks is getting the purple heart.

I had been hoping the PA hijacking heros would get recognition so when my ear latched onto the report that is what I heard*.?.

As an artist I paint things the way I see them. If I see trolls thats what I paint. However due to the overwhelming global support for the outstanding examples of freedom/freedom of expression the Taliban are respondisible for, let us all be P.I. and refer to the Taliban as jolly good fellows even if they do look like trolls.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:29 AM

Maybe it is bigotry but the pictures of the Taliban convention looked like a Hobbit convention of trolls.

--Donuel

The whole 'free speech' thing notwithstanding, I do think there is a big difference between saying something because it's worth saying, and saying something just because you can.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:16 AM

Donuel: are you sure all of the folks are going to receive Congressional Medals of Honor? I sort of doubt that, but I'd be interested in seeing your source.

Maybe a Congressional Medal of Freedom or something like that, but the Congressional Medal of Honor is presented to those who perform extraordinary deeds of herorism in battle. I could be wrong, but I don't think a civilian has ever been awarded one.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 12:21 AM

"S okay, troll -- we already don't like it!!

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM

I have just been advised by the TADL's law firm, Over, andover, and Dover, to retract the last part of the third sentence of the last post to wit: "well, you won't like it, what we'll do."
I hereby retract it.

troll ***don't see why I can't say it. It's the truth. Turn over his house or his car. Teach him to diss us trolls. mumble, mumble, gripe.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:58 PM

Watch it, fella! Us trolls resent your implication. Any more posts like that and we'll have the Troll Anti-Defamation League come and ... well, you won't like it, what we'll do.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM

All-Out US Assault Hawks Forced To Retreat By Richard Norton-Taylor The Guardian - London 9-27-1

A day after the terrorist attacks on the US, senior defence sources were predicting a massive attack on Afghanistan, including missile strikes and ground troops. A contingency plan had been dusted off, they said, involving "the cooperation of surrounding countries to the north of Afghanistan". A few days later, the sources were not so sure. There was an argument in Washington, they said, between the hawks and the doves, between those pressing for an immediate assault on Afghanistan - and possibly Iraq as well - and those urging caution, proposing a careful, "intelligence-led" military operation. As the days passed with no military action, it became clear that the hawks - led by Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, and his deputy Paul Wolfowitz - had been convinced by the doves, led by Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, supported by Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's national security adviser. Their strongest argument was the need to build as broad an international coalition as possible in what Mr Bush's advisers and Washington spokesmen increasingly described as a long-term "war on terrorism". Mr Powell, a former chief of the US armed forces, was also well aware of the dangers of sending in ground troops and the ineffectiveness of ill-considered air strikes. "We were bouncing rubble with billion-dollar missiles," he said after the 1991 Gulf war. He was also well aware of the futility of firing a few cruise missiles at a number of Bin Laden training camps in south-east Afghanistan - the tactic adopted by President Clinton following the attacks on US embassies in east Africa in 1998. The military options are reflecting political and diplomatic priorities - in London as well as Washington - and what defence sources call the need to achieve "outcomes". The first is to try to find Bin Laden and his circle in Afghanistan. That relies on good intelligence, from spy satellites but also from the ground. The only people who can do this - apart from the unlikely presence of spies in Bin Laden's camp - are special forces. The SAS and US special forces, notably its Delta Force, will play a potentially crucial role in the forthcoming military campaign. Good intelligence is also the key to avoiding civilian casualties. Special forces can guide pilots to fixed targets and report the movement of people. The SAS - which in the 1980s was heavily involved with the mojahedin of what is now the Northern Alliance, may well be benefiting from its help now. However, the alliance, supported by Russia, is strongly opposed by Pakistan, whose discreet intelligence help US and British forces need and are almost certainly already getting. Military planners, as well as diplomats, are extremely sensitive to the need to avoid exacerbating relations between Russia and Pakistan. There is little doubt that military operations in Afghanistan will involve air strikes against Bin Laden camps and the Taliban's military bases. They are also likely to precede the deployment of hundreds of US - and possibly British - airborne troops whose job could be to hold such bases as Bagram airport north of Kabul.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM

Maybe it is bigotry but the pictures of the Taliban convention looked like a Hobbit convention of trolls.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

Sometimes I wish they had sent one tiny little kiloton into that national convention of the Taliban last week.

But that's just when i'm feeling mad about the images of valuable working productive people jumping out of buildings unnecessarily...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:02 PM

Since we have no idea what bin Laden & Co. will do next , thus setting up a totally new equation to be solved, NO BET!

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM

More war strategies:

Since we can not write our hate and anger on a piece of ice and wait for the sun to melt it , or wait for an all inclusive global tribunal to educate the world and legitimize all actions as much as possible . The racist terrorists that want our destruction ,as Bush said 'verbatim' today, "have misunderestimateded the United States of America".

I do not underestimate the brazen foolishness of GW. In fact....

I do not think this conflict will remain conventional.

Everyone turned up the volume today. Bush said he wanted bin Laden's blood. The Italian president claimed Western culture is superior to Islamic culture and they deserve to be destroyed. Almost all Pakistanis are said to believe Isreal did the WTC attack to provoke the US to attack Islam in their behalf.

Once one Arab is felled by a US bullet Arabs will claim it to be thousands. Fatwa will ensue no matter what the facts are or how careful the US will try to be. Against the ever increasing waves of zealots the use of US nuclear weapons will seem no more provovative that what we will already be facing. Perhaps this will happen right after another domestic attack against the US.

This will be reason enough to expect terrorism into the future for as long as Jews and Arabs have already been at war. (a verry long time)

Unless there is a miracle of diplomacy... ?

The nukes may be strategic neutron or tiny one kiloton versions to start. After all, China and Pakistan will be watching for a big one.

It sounds like Bush has already put nukes on the table. Anyone willing to say he won't use them within the year? Or do you think he will heed Rumsfeld's advice which is the kind of caution I have been talking about?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:37 PM

All the people on the PA hijacking will be getting Congressional medals of honor, just as I had hoped.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

Yes, you are correct, CarolC, I was editorializing and that was not a fair thing to do. I'm sure you are correct.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:32 AM

Actually, though, DougR, I think maybe it's your turn to back up your assertions with some credible documentation. You have said that the only time missiles were launched was when Clinton got his hand caught in the cookie jar. That sounds like an editorial statement to me.

My recollection is that missiles were launched by Clinton after a plot to kill President Bush was uncovered, after the first bombing of the WTC, and also after the bombings of the embassies.