BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 13 - 01:47 AM

Jim, when you read reports by "eye witnesses" remember that the enemies of Israel regard lies as a legitimate weapon.
Remember the ones that "saw" IDF soldiers throwing bodies off the Maramara, and executing a young man on deck.
All made up.
Remember the massacre you indignantly posted about that was pure fiction.
The faked pictures in Gaza, etc., etc.

Apart from the journalists, all your "eye witnesses" only remembered what they "saw" years later.
The only outcry at the time came from Israel.
The Arab world was silent.
I am not so gullible as to believe without question the stories from either side, but you have endlessly posted the anti-israel version so here is Israel's version of events.


On Thursday, 16 September, the I.D.F. surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps in west Beirut to flush out terrorists, confiscate weapons and strengthen the Maronite regime in the wake of Bashir Gemayel's assassination. In the following ten days, vast amounts of arms were removed, including 12 pieces of artillery, 8 heavy mortars, and 520 tons of ammunition. A decision concerning the use of Phalangist elements in the camps was reached a day earlier. They entered the camps in the late evening of 16 September and the massacres began. They lasted all day Friday and ended by late night Saturday. Reports began to filter out on Friday morning, when the Chief of Staff and the Foreign Minister were alerted. The Prime Minister first heard of the massacre from a foreign news broadcast. He and the rest of Israel were celebrating the Jewish New Year on Saturday and Sunday, 18 and 19 September. On the 19th, reporters entered the camps and confirmed that hundreds of Palestinians had been massacred. In Israel there was consternation and the Cabinet met in an extraordinary session and issued the following communique:

On the New Year, a blood libel was levelled at the Jewish State and its Government, against the Israel Defense Forces.

In a place where there was no position of the Israeli army, a Lebanese unit entered a refugee center where terrorists were hiding, in order to apprehend them. This unit caused many casualties to innocent civilians. We state this fact with deep grief and regret. The I.D.F., as soon as it learned of the tragic events in the Shatila camp, put an end to the slaughter of the innocent civilian population and forced the Lebanese unit to evacuate the camp. The civilian population itself gave clear expression to its gratitude for the act of salvation by the I.D.F. All the direct or implicit accusations that the I.D.F. bear any blame whatsoever for this human tragedy in the Shatila Camp are entirely baseless and without any foundation. The Government of Israel rejects them with the contempt which they deserve.

The fact remains that without the intervention of the I.D.F., there would have been much greater loss of life. It is also necessary to note that for two days and nights the Israel Defense Forces carried out actions against terrorists in West Beirut and no complaints whatsoever were voiced concerning civilian casualties.

It has become evident that the terrorists grossly violated the evaluation agreement, not only by leaving two thousand of them in West Beirut, but also by hiding away immense quantities of weapons, including heavy arms, such as tanks, artillery, mortars, and huge amounts of ammunition. All this was done in order to continue with the bloody terror against Israel and other nations from west Beirut.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 10:15 PM

Don't you just love hate?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 03:38 PM

"We can agree on that."
No we can't Keith - there were no PLO fighters found - simple slaughter in revenge for a killing and facilitated by Israel - where's your evidence, you've had mine - you are once again making it up.
Among your unread links there are eye witness reports of Israeli soldiers watching women being dragged away to be raped and then have their throats cut - perhaps the Israelis thought they were being taken off to be searched - waddya think?
Providing the transport - illuminating the massacre - opening the gates to the killers - helping hide the bodies - allowing the killers to escape - evidence of traumatised Israeli soldiers (late to provide the stunning animated film 'Waltzing With Bashir' ANY THOUGHTS?
"not foreseeing the danger."
They stood by and watched the slaughter for THREE DAYS - how much foresight is needed?
Lest we forget - sorry it's five months old!!
"US gave Israel Green Light for Sabra, Shatila Massacre
By Finian Cunningham
Global Research, September 19, 2012
Press TV
Region: Middle East & North Africa
Theme: Crimes against Humanity
In-depth Report: PALESTINE
0    0 0    63
For three days, between 15 and 18 September, up to 3,500 men, women and children were butchered in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps of West Beirut. Their mutilated, mangled bodies bulldozed into mass graves.
For three days, Lebanese Christian Phalangists under the command of intelligence chief Elie Hobeika returned over and over again to go on an orgy of systematic slaughter in the camps. The massacre would not have been possible only for the collaboration of Israel's Defence Forces, which had months earlier invaded Lebanon and taken control of the camps.
Sabra and Shatila were populated by destitute families of Palestinians that had fled from the pogroms in 1948 carried out by Israel's Haganah death squads. The refugee numbers also burgeoned with Lebanese Shia displaced from the civil war in their country that erupted in 1975.
The United Nations' General Assembly later condemned what happened at Sabra and Shatila as "an act of genocide". A UN commission of inquiry, headed up by Irish statesman Sean MacBride, concluded that the Israeli authorities and their forces were involved and responsible for the deaths. The then head of the IDF was Ariel Sharon who later would hold four ministerial posts before becoming Israeli Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006.
Yet not a single person has ever been prosecuted for the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila. As part of Lebanon's civil war settlement in 1990 an amnesty was afforded to all those who had participated in this and other atrocities. Some would later clear their consciences by confessing publicly to media and tribunals to the most barbaric acts of cruelty one can imagine.
Former Phalangist commander Hobeika was due to give evidence in a Belgian court, which had claimed international jurisdiction for crimes against humanity to prosecute the case. Ahead of the hearings, Hobeika had publicly stated that he was going to testify against Aerial Sharon to implicate him in the operation of the massacre. He never made it to the courtroom. He was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut in January 2002. At least two other former Lebanese Phalangists who were similarly due to testify were also mysteriously killed. Eventually, the Belgian court was forced to drop the trial under pressure from Washington. Many believe that Israeli agents carried out the assassinations to spare Sharon international ignominy.
Despite the lack of criminal convictions, there is not a shadow of doubt that Israel has blood on its hands over Sabra and Shatila. The Lebanese militia recruited to do the dirty work were assembled by the Israeli Defence Forces at Beirut International Airport days before the mayhem was unleashed. The 1,5000 or so killers were armed by the Israelis and driven in IDF vehicles to the camps. The Israeli army had surrounded the site with armed guards and checkpoints to ensure that no-one escaped when the slaughter began. Indeed, some reports at the time claimed that Israeli soldiers ordered families trying to flee from the carnage back into camps to face their certain deaths.
Overlooking Sabra and Shatila was the seven-storey Kuwaiti embassy, which had been commandeered by the Israelis. From top floors, the Israeli and Phalangist commanders would have had a clear, uninterrupted view of the unfolding sickening spectacle. Not least because the Israeli forces would fire night flares over the camps as the death squads – fuelled with cocaine and alcohol courtesy of Israel – proceeded from hovel to hovel killing the inhabitants.
One Dutch nurse working in the camps for an international aid organization said that the area was as bright as day because of the constant barrage of flares.
From their vantage point, the Israeli commanders would have witnessed the most grotesque bloodletting carried out by their Phalangist fanatics against women and children. Yet the Israeli commanders did nothing to stop the slaughter. Why should they have? It was all evidently executed according to plan. Later, the Israelis claimed that they had instructed the militias to not injure civilians and to behave with discipline. That self-defence is beneath contempt.
The respected American human rights lawyer Franklin Lamb, based in Beirut, recalled what his late wife witnessed in the hours following the aftermath of Sabra and Shatila. Janet Lee Stevens was in Beirut working as a young journalist and was one of the first internationals on the scene. Here is just an excerpt of what she witnessed:
"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."
This week, only days before the 30th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila, Israel's current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was afforded the customary privilege of articulating his noxious views to the American people on various nationwide Sunday television channels. To be sure, Sabra and Shatila were not mentioned. No, instead Netanyahu was spilling his bile about Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions. He also called the worldwide Muslim demonstrations outside American embassies over the latest anti-Islam video "mob rule" and he compared the Iranian government to these "fanatics". In a leap of twisted logic, Netanyahu said: "You can't let such people have atomic bombs."
Such is the twisted world we live in. When will the voices of Sabra and Shatila be given such prominence on Western mainstream media to explain to the world the horror and injustice that they suffered? Maybe if such voices were somehow heard and understood, the American people would stop their governments bankrolling the fanatical, criminal state of Israel that has, and continues to, instigate so much conflict in the world. Washington gives Israel a license for genocide. The American people need to stop that."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-gave-israel-green-light-for-sabra-shatila-genocide/5305298

The fact that you continue to lie and to fail to produce one single scrap of evidence really places you where you are.
"All these thing ARE provided when they settle."
I assume you can provide links to this information - or not, as the case may be?
You haven't responded to the toxicity of the site - given up on that one?
Or the fascist behaviour of moving masses of people to make room for Jewish settlers.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 02:41 PM

All these things are not available when they build without permission.

Israel not only builds without permission but it also steals the building land first. And the settlers get all the water, electricity, healthcare, education, paved roads and sanitation they could wish for.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:10 PM

Richard, the thraed about the Gaza/Egypt tunnels had nothing to do with Israel.
Israel was still singled out for attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 12:01 PM

Don.
Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.
I would add sanitation.
All these thing ARE provided when they settle.
All these things are not available when they build without permission.

Richard.
This thread is about UN not condemning Israel for its action to prevent Syria's weapons reaching terrorists in Lebanon.
So not just about Israel.
As usual, all your friends rush in to use it as a platform for attacking Israel while ignoring all the far worse offenders that surround Israel.
Israel always is singled out.
It is undeniable.

Jim, IDF deivered the miltia to the camps to root out PLO fighters.
They have an indirect responsibility for not foreseeing the danger.
We can agree on that.
That much is unequivocal.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 09:30 AM

"I see where you're coming from."
Sorry Bobad, replied to this earlier but my posting went walkabout.
I read the Jacobson piece at the time, but was a little nonplussed to understand how opposing massacres, human rights abuses, war crimes... can be construed as 'Antisemitism" - unless he and you are, like Keith, claiming that none of these things happened - is that the case, d'you think.
Have certainly come across racism in Ireland, mainly from people who have lived in the UK and caught the infection there.
I can't recall any Antisemitism here (sorry - don't count bringing relief to a besieged people - that's humanitarianism as far as I'm concerned - maybe you could put me right on that one).
The Irish in general I find friendly, hospitable, generous and gregarious (little curious about you maybe, what you do and who you are), but I've never found that in any way offensive or threatening.
Not so long ago there was a ceremony to welcome "blow ins" who have come to live here permanently.
The one appalling exception is with Travellers - that seems to have almost reached ethnic cleansing proportions.   
There is a some healthy discussion of the implications of this at present - even some politicians seem to have become aware of the situation, but a long way to go yet.
I said elsewhere that I can't imagine anything more Antisemitic than hiding behind the six million dead of Auschwitz and such places, to defend proven war crimes and atrocities.
If the six million had been given the luxury of graves, I have no doubt that they would be spinning in them - shame on you and Jacobson.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM

This "why single out Israel" trend in this thread adds up to an utterly bogus, desperate and stupendously childish argument. let's look at why:

1. It is a thread about Israel. Duh.

2. The implication is that, even if Israel is doing something nasty, but slightly less nasty than a, b, c or d, it is beyond criticism. I rape your wife, but the chap next door murders your daughter. That lets me off the hook because murder is slightly worse than rape. Do me a favour.

3. In various threads on this and other forums, I've "singled out" for criticism the US for its foreign policy, the Catholic church for its terrible attitude to HIV/Aids in Africa, Hamas for its rocket attacks on civilians, the so-called "pro-life" movement, bitter Republican politicians who do everything in their power to prevent a Democrat president from governing effectively, the global warming denial conspiracy, the US gun lobby, the evil Mother Teresa and a host of other things. If a thread is about Israel then Israel has been singled out for discussion. Bleating that we're "singling out" Israel just because we don't share your apologist view of Israel is laughable. It simply reveals that you have no arguments.

4. The bloody thread is about Israel! (Oops, did I already mention that?)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 07:02 AM

""I see where you're coming from.

The Irish anti-Israel sickness isn't limited to Ireland""

Bollocks! You persist in deliberately NOT SEEING where we are coming from.

None of as is anti Jew.

We are talking about the excesses of the second most arrogant and intransigent government in the modern world, the Zionist bastards led by Netanyahu.

We are talking about that government's ongoing efforts to annexe the whole of Palestine, and the dishonesty of those who claim that imperialism is synonymous with self defence.

We are talking aout the iniquity of the way that they treat Arabs both within and without Israel.

We are talking about the way in which their soldiers respond to stone throwers with deadly gunfire, and the massively disproportionate responses to resistance, with kill rates far in excess of ten to one at every opportunity.

None of which has anything whatever to do with antisemitism on our part, so you may, at your leisure, roll that Irish document into a cylinder and shove it you know where.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 06:43 AM

""At least in Israel they have citizenship rights and the protection of the law.""

You really are not paying attention:-

""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.""

Citizenship rights to everything, except basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads.

WOW! Aren't they lucky to be Israeli citizens. We know what rights they are excluded from, so what does that leave in the way of rights?

They have the right to be shifted out of their 600 year home and dumped alongside Jerusalem's steadily increasing rubbish heap. Not a problem says Keith.

They have the right to be dragged away from the area where they can support themselves by farming (which they have done for 600 years), and placed in townships which are among the poorest areas in Israel and have high crime levels, and which offer little if any hope of making a living as a farmer, which is the only trade they know.

All of this to supply brand new settlements where the REAL Israelis can take over the farming and make a good living at it.

You know, with equality like that, I'd hate to see what you, Keith, would describe as discrimination.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM

"toxic" site."
My dictionary gives "toxic" as harmful, destructive or deadly poisonous, and that is the is the situation on this site.
The materials on the site become toxic if they get into the water supply, that is a fact recognised by the Israeli authorities and stated as such - you have been given that statement.
They become toxic when coming into contact with some gasses, include those with domestic uses - also a documented fact and given to you.
Those toxins remain in the ground years, possibly decades after the site has been used, especially dangerous to any water supply - also commented on by those involved in the health of the country.
The perimeter fence is insecure, making possible - likely that children and enter the site and come into contact with rotting material which could make them ill and even kill them - this is true of any rubbish dump of this size and is recognised to be the case.
In addition to this, the gasses given off could cause fire and explosion - stated by the Health authorities.
Tell us which of these is not true.
Whether the site is being used to dump specifically recognised toxic material it totally irrelevant; I have never claimed that to be the case.
The site is toxic by its very existence – it contains material that can killand it has been stated as being such - that's in several of your unread links.
Your arguments here are similar to your defence of chemical weapons - if materials capable of burning the faces off children are showered down on occupied area they become weapons, no matter what their other uses are.
A baseball bat in the hands of a thug becomes a deadly weapon, no matter what its intended use was.
Your "Broxbourn" equivalent is laughably immaterial unless you can show that this site is and will continue to be similarly managed in the same way as your "wealthy friends" friendly neighbourhood dump - can you?.
Once the site becomes vacant there is no suggestion anywhere that any steps will be taken to guard against the lingering toxicity.
Apart from anything else, the proposal to evict a people from their traditional centuries-old tribal lands to somewhere where they will be unable to follow either their customary way of life or make their livelihoods, in order to make room for Jewish settlers is an act of racist oppression and your support for it reflects perfectly your fascist (wishes of the state before well-being of the people) outlook on life.
You have continued to ignore the evidence put before you and you continue to provide none of your own.
Moving people about like chess pieces if an open act of state fascism.
"Sabra and Shatilla."
You have been given the evidence of Israel's role in this massacre - it was facilitated by them and could not have happened without their active participation - if this is not true provide your evidence to counteract what you have been given.   So far, your sole defence is "Israel said they didn't do it" even though Israeli soldiers who were there and who were traumatised by the events said they did.
At the very least the Israeli forces provided the transport to the camps, opened up the camps for the killers, provided the illumination so they could go about their work OVER THREE DAYS.
Well-armed Israeli soldiers stood by and watched as the slaughter went on – they witnessed the events over a long period of times and did nothing.
"It was the IDF who stopped it."
They "stopped it" when the killing had run its course.
They helped bury the dead after the three days of slaughter and allowed the killers to leave.
They later built a stadium over the mass graves so that they corpses could not be used as evidence (the reason why the actuat death toll is still unknown)
They were guilty before, during and after the fact - making them mass murderers and war criminals - show us one shred of evidence to show they were not.
Were us your evidence - you've had ours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:06 AM

"Chemical weapons" also has a specific meaning.
Smoke screen canisters are not chemical weapons.

If you said that their use around civilians was deplorable and reckless, I would agree.
I actually gave that as my opinion.

If you describe it as a chemical attack on civilians, that is just bollocks.
If you surround it in acres of multi-coloured, multi-fonted text, it is still bollocks.
It shows the weakness of your case that you have to use such nonsense.

Where are the unequivocal Israeli crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 04:09 AM

OK Jim, the "toxic" site.
The terms "Toxic waste" and "toxic dumps" have specific meanings.
It distinguishes such things from ordinary domestic garbage, which is what goes in to this landfill site.

Domestic garbage can generate methane and can contaminate water if mismanaged.
Wealthy friends of mine live on a very expensive housing scheme in Broxbourne over such a site.
There are pipes coming out of the ground here and there to disperse the methane.

Sabra and Shatilla.
No-one is denying it happened and was a dreadful crime against humanity.
If you argued that Israel had some indirect responsibility because they controlled the area I would have to agree.
If you argued, with hindsight, that IDF might have foreseen what the militia might do, I would have to agree.
If you argue, again with hindsight, that IDF should have realised what was happening sooner I would have to agree.
You keep saying IDF did it.
That is not true. It was the IDF who stopped it.

IDF responsibility can be argued about because it is equivocal.
If Israel is as evil as you say, why can you not find some unequivocal crimes to blame on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 03:48 AM

Your excuses for not replying to simple questions are really not worth responding to - if you can't understand what people say to you, or dispute it with rational argument, stop dominating and filibusting threads - these are not complicated subjects - massacring unarmed non combatants is unacceptable whoever does it, and using the behaviour of others to excuse it is utterly dishonest and makes you part of those war crimes and human rights abuses, just as those who knew about the Holocaust and did nothing allowed themselves to become part of it.
If there's anything here you don't understand, please point it out and I'll try to explain it in the 'soundbite size' postings' that you seem to favour, otherwise, stop pretending you don't understand what is being said.
Claiming my arguments are un"reasonable" or ir"rational" without "reasonable" or "rational" arguments of your own really is scraping the bottom of the barrel - PATHETIC AND MEANINGLESS, to say the least.
STOP BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR WAR CRIMINALS.
You claim to have disputed evidence put forward of Israel's appalling human rights record - you certainly have not. You have consistently denied documented facts, which is a different thing altogether.
We have provided proof, of Sabra/Shatila - you denied it, chemical weapons - you denied it - massacres - you denied it - you denied it - illegal settlements- you denied it - systematic humiliation - you denied it - attempts to starve into submission- you denied it - - you denied it - slaughter of civilians, - you denied it - the destruction of homes, hospitals and schools, - you denied it - destroying the health of children and those in need of medicine...... and a whole host of human (or should I say inhuman) abuses - you denied them all, every single one. You have yet to provide evidence to show us wrong, YOU HAVE SIMPLY DENIED THEM - THAT IS NOT DISPUTING THEM, AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT DISPROVING THEM
Just as with the Holocaust deniers, you are attempting to re-write history by simply saying that these documented facts are not true, that they, did not happen.
Typical is your insistence that the proposed sites the Bedouins are being moved onto are not toxic - YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN A LIST OF REASONS WHY IT IS WHICH YOU HAVE TOTALLY IGNORED AND GONE INTO YOUR MANTRA "IT IS NOT TOXIC" MODE - SHOW WHY THE REASONS YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN ARE WRONG OR STOP LYING - THE OPPORTUNITY IS YOURS
You obviously have no intention of explaining why the behaviour of others is an excuse for war crimes; nor do you intend to tell us why and when past massacres become irrelevant - tell us why these true or
STOP HIDING BEHIND SUCH EVASIVE DISHONESTY - IT IS YOUR NON-ARGUMENTS THAT ARE UNREASONABLE, IRRATIONAL OR NON EXISTANT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:13 PM

I see where you're coming from.

The Irish anti-Israel sickness isn't limited to Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:04 PM

Jim, If you could make your posts more reasoned and rational, it would be easier to respond.

Don, the Bedouin were nomadic and issues arise when they build.
At least in Israel they have citizenship rights and the protection of the law.
As a community they flourish, their numbers increasing at an extraordinary rate.

Jim, there was no toxic waste at the dump.
It is not a toxic dump.
Ordinary garbage causes those problems but is easily managed.
These are local issues and very few Bedouin are even involved.


No they don't - show me one country that has taken part in the slaughter of 3,000 refugees.
Not Israel for a start.
If you mean Sabra Shatilla, the killing was done by local militia who were Arabs.
Syrian massacres have gone well beyond those numbers just in the last year.
The later massacres in the Lebanese refugee camps also compare.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM

Jim Carroll: "...- because Israel is a terrorist state armed with nuclear weapons, protected by a US veto and is risking war in the Middle East in order to expand its territory - hope you've got a fallout shelter in your back yard."

Don't worry...the only way that would happen is by a 'non-co-operating, rogue client'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

"There are atrocities and crimes against humanity of a much greater magnitude than what you accuse Israel"
Perhaps you can explain why this makes Israel's serial crimes against humanity and war crimes acceptable - Keith can't?
This seems to now be the knee-jerk defence for those crimes and massacres.
Why - because Israel is a terrorist state armed with nuclear weapons, protected by a US veto and is risking war in the Middle East in order to expand its territory - hope you've got a fallout shelter in your back yard.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:44 PM

"We do it because we're sick of seeing atrocities and crimes against humanity"

There are atrocities and crimes against humanity of a much greater magnitude than what you accuse Israel of happening in many places of the world yet you single out Israel for your obsessive opprobrium - why?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:41 PM

"Israel condemned by UN"

..Well of course they did!..The only five countries in the security council, U.S., U.K, France, Russia and China just happen to be the world's largest supplier of arms, both legal and illegal, to the rest of the world(U.N.)! Why shouldn't they vote to escalate another region in turmoil...........it would stimulate their economies and make profits for the illegal arms trade, as well....and the same people would profit!
Way to go guys!..Did real great in Syria, as well!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 12:29 PM

Correction
You do not judge the behaviour of one country by comparing it with the acts of the other - show me why this is not true.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 12:26 PM

"Why single out Israel?"
I doidn't single out Israel - you did, you told us how well the Bedouin people were treated in Israel - a reminder:
"Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
09 Feb 13 - 10:16 AM
"....likewise Bedouin."
You then went on to give your approval for them being moved onto a toxic site - you tried to deny it was toxic, even though youy were given an Israeli Government Department report on it's toxicity if it gets inbto the water supply, told of the likelihood of it exploding (also a Government department report), and the inadequate fencing that would allow children to enter grounds that would remain toxic for year, if not decades.
Your pointing out Britain's deplorable record on Travellers rings a little hollow after your opening a threads in an an (unsuccessful) attempt to disprove one of the most common acts of prejudice in these islands.
"Why Israel"
One more time:
There is no country that has a worse record of massacres than Nazi Germany - does this make all massacres less than that in any way excusable?
Israel's behavior is the question here - not anywhere else.
You do not judge the behaviour of one country - show me why this is not true.
"If you do, it comes out the best by far."
No they don't - show me one country that has taken part in the slaughter of 3,000 refugees.
You have been given the death toll of this present conflict: Israel's continuing slaughter of civilians in this conflict is unequalled by that of any other protagonist in the Middle East
And to repeat my request:
There is not a time limit on any massacre - IF THERE IS PLEASE TELL ME WHEN IT CEASES TO BE A RELEVANT ISSUE - PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO AVOID THIS QUESTION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

"""Why single out Israel?"

We know damn well why they single out Israel.""

YES Bobad. We do it because we're sick of seeing atrocities and crimes against humanity covered up for just one nation by a fawning West which feels bad about the idea of telling off the "Eternal Victims"!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM

""Jim, both our countries restrict the freedom of nomadic people to settle wherever they want, and so does every other country.
Why single out Israel?""

When is it going to seep through into whatever you call a brain, that those particular ""NOMADS"" have been farming that land for nearly ten times longer than Israel has EXISTED!

Bedouins raising cattle since the 1500s (C16)= 600 years
Birth of Israel 1948                   (C20)= 65 years

Since the birth of Israel thriving farmers have been fenced in off grazing land, such that one farm which used to graze 1500 sheep and 30 camels, can now only support 150 sheep and 1 camel, and most of what they fetch has to be spent on feed.

You really should have read Jim's links and you would have known these things instead of making a complete arse of yourself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM

"Why single out Israel?"

We know damn well why they single out Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 10:55 AM

""A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want, but they are equal under the law, and have full citizenship rights unlike their unfortunate, excluded, marginalised and persecuted brethren next door in Egypt.""

You are a caution mate, a real good laugh! Either you once again decided not to read one of my posts, or you have a three hour memory span, or most likely,having no answer you shoot off at a tangent to talk about Egypt. CONCENTRATE NOW, I know you can get it if you try:-

""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.

These are not nomads Keith, get it? NOT NOMADS!

What we have here is cultivatable land which Israel wants for Israelis (as soon as the Bedouins are shifted, Israelis move in), you see in spite of your impassioned support of your idols, equality to them means "equality for us and screw the Arabs", because they do not see Bedouins as being Israeli.

Now read the whole thing and see if you can get your head round the rest, which describes the depths to which Israel will sink to displace Arab farmers and put them into townships in the poorest regions in high crime areas. Do you still say the caring Israelis are trying to improve their condition?

Whatever is happening in other countries, APARTHEIDT is alive and well and 58% of Israelis think so too, but most of them don't care, according to one of those links you think irrelevant.

Don T.

Whatever

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 09:01 AM

Jim, both our countries restrict the freedom of nomadic people to settle wherever they want, and so does every other country.
Why single out Israel?

The history of Israel is one of massacres - especially of civilians.
I refute that, but there have been plenty in the surrounding countries.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:58 AM

Why is it unreasonable to make a compare Israel with its neighbours?
If you do, it comes out the best by far.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

"A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want,"
You are now supporting the forcible displacement of nomadic tribes from their traditional hiomes (in this case, to toxic ground) in order to build settlements for Israelis.
Further and further out of your racist closet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM

"Shall I remind you what happens to peaceful protesters in the surrounding countries?"
NO YOU Shall not, IT HAS NO RELEVANCE WHATEVER TO HOW ISRAEL BEHAVES TOWARDS WHAT YOU HAVE DESCRINBED AS "IT'SD ENEMIES" - I AM QUITE AWARE OF THE BEHAVIOUR OF RELIGION BASED OR INFLUENCED STATES
There is no country that has a worse record of massacres than Nazi Germany - does this make all massacres less than that in any way excusable?
Israel's behavior is the question here - not anywhere else.
Can I remind you that you have pointed out Egypt's military government's behaviour towards minorities while at the same time, are happy to support their flooding life-saving tunnels.
The history of Israel is one of massacres - especially of civilians. Israel started its independence by massacring villagers by hurling hand grenades into occupied homes. You've had the information on this.
The Sabra/Shatila massacre is particularly relevant in view of the possibility of Palestinian being made into refugees.
The vast majority of Palestinian casualties in the conflict(far more than that of Israelis - look up the figures if you don's believe this) have been unarmed and unresistant civilians (also well documented).   
There is not a time limit on any massacre - IF THERE IS PLEASE TELL ME WHEN IT CEASES TO BE A RELEVANT ISSUE - PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO AVOID THIS QUESTION
Israel would long ago have been tried for war crimes had it not been supported by US vetoes.
"but they are equal under the law,"
The law pays lip service to equality - the reality is gross inequality based on race - I didn't even start to gather the mass of information on the restrictions of sales of property to Arabs (and even Gentiles)
READ THE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT REPORT WHICH YOU HAVE LYINGLY CLAIMED TO HAVE READ AND SHOW US WHERE IT IS FALSE.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM

We have been over it endlessly.
A crowded modern country has to restrict the freedom of nomadic people to set up where they want, but they are equal under the law, and have full citizenship rights unlike their unfortunate, excluded, marginalised and persecuted brethren next door in Egypt.

BBC Tuesday.
(Kuwait)Noting Bedouin unhappiness with a lack of services, ongoing corruption and what they see as growing state repression, Mr Davidson said: "The al-Sabahs are breaking the social contract with the tribes... tribal discontent has always been there but nothing close to this as ever happened before."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 07:06 AM

BTW, that came from one of Jim's ""irrelevant"" links and was dated just nine months ago.

Care to reassess their relevance?

Of course not. Being forced to recognise facts would kill you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:57 AM

""So we did end up discussing Bedouin persecution and you and your mates really did not want it mentioned that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.""

Read the following from the Guardian May 2012.

-snip- ""Unlike the Jahalin, Bedouin groups in the Negev have cultivated their land since the 16th century. They are also Israeli citizens, and yet 35 of their 46 villages are not recognised by the state. As a result, the 90,000 residents live without basic services such as water, electricity, healthcare, education or paved roads. And they are not allowed to build permanent structures.

Thabet Abu Rass, the Negev director for Adalah, an organisation that offers legal advice to the Arab minority in Israel, describes a painstaking fight for the rights of unrecognised villagers. "We have to petition the high court for each basic service, like water. Most of the time we win the cases – but the problem is implementation. Sometimes it takes 10 years. Or they grant us 'minimal access' to water, which means one tap three miles from the village."

According to a pending law for the regulation of Bedouin settlement in the Negev, due to be presented to the parliament this month, these villages will be evacuated in the next five years and ecah of their inhabitants compensated to move to one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates.""-snip-

Now tell me that, because others are treated worse, you would consider yourself lucky to live as they describe and have a future in ""one of seven government-planned townships – the poorest towns in Israel, with some of the highest crime rates."".

Go on Keith, convince us.

Me and my mates want to know just how lucky you think they are in the light of that existence.

It's one thing to have laws, quite another to enforce without fear or favour, and it's abundantly clear that Israel is a long way from that standard.

If they treat their own like that, what chance for neighbouring Arab countries?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:55 AM

Shall I remind you what happens to peaceful protesters in the surrounding countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 06:15 AM

"October 2000"
Which proves without question that you are lying - you have not read the link provided, not any of the others, or you would have responded to them
The report is dated March 2011 and is a survey of the built in inequalities of Israeli society, which has led to it being descrimed "the Apartheid State".
You and Bruce have been hiding behind the Holocaust, which ended 68 years ago - both of you have suggested that those who criticise Israel are Antisemitic, and if Israel didn't act as they do it would provoke a new holocaust.
The links are "not all old - far from it - they range back over the last decade and they relate directly to your claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 05:56 AM

As I said, nothing new.
All old stuff.
"October 2000"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 05:51 AM

"None of it is new, and it is irrelevant here."
You didn't even admit its existence - the report on the intended poisoning of the Bedouins relates directly to your claim of good treatment of them by Israel - the The Inequality Report on The Palestinian Arab Minority in Israel, relates directly to you claim that all citizens of Israel have equal right - the report contains such gems as:
"Case Study: The October 2000 protest killings In October 2000, Israeli police officers killed 13 unarmed Palestinian citizens of Israel during demonstrations staged to protest against Israel's brutal policies in the OPT. During the demonstrations, Israeli police used live ammunition, rubber-coated steel bullets and tear gas against the protestors. Many protestors who were killed were shot in the head or chest by snipers. As a result of the lethal force employed by the police to quash the demonstrations, hundreds of Arab citizens were also injured and more than 1,000 were arrested and detained. Contrary to the recommendations of the official Or Commission of Inquiry in 2003, in January 2008, the Attorney General decided to close the files and not to issue a single indictment against anyone responsible for the killings.221 Until today, ten years after the killings, no police officer, commander or political leader has been held accountable for the deaths."
ALL OF THESE LINKS ARE DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION AND YOUR CONTEMPT FOR BOTH FACTS AND THE FORUM MEMBERS WHO PRODUCE THEM PROVES YOU TO BE A RABID FANATIC WHO IS USING THE DEMOCRACY AFFOREDED TO YOU BY THIS FORUM AS A SOAPBOX FOR YOUR EXTREMIST VIEWS
Your dismissal of information put up for you out of hand shows you to have no interest in the views or the knowledge of other forum members.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:07 AM

I have read all that stuff.
None of it is new, and it is irrelevant here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:03 AM

Am I to take it that you still haven't read the links?
I know what your personal outlook on life is and I detest it.
I know how you regard entire cultures and races; I've told you what I think of that, many times.
I know how you regard humanity - the ones you don't like should be moved to toxic rubbish dumps (only don't call them toxic)
If you are not prepared to read the facts (as others see them) and put forward facts (as you see them) of you own (not other people's) and debate them, or even look at them, what's the point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:11 PM

TRUE!!....And we all know why!   

The USA vetoes any UN move to bring Israel to heel, because it is terrified of the PRO Israel Zionist lobby inside its borders.
US can only veto Security Council resolutions.
There is nothing to stop Ki Moon making a personal criticism or anyone within UN staring a debate.
No-one has this time.

Yet he has decided that his lack of knowledge means Israel were not involved and has, without such knowledge, categorically stated, AS A FACT, his opinion, unsupported by any such knowledge, that Hamas were responsible.
No.
I just pointed out that Egypt felt it necessary to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza. A drastic step.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:56 PM

""I have no way of knowing, anymore than you or Jim.
The government and security services and military of Egypt have formed a firm impression over the last seven months.
We do not know what it is, but it drove them to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza.
They obviously do not think it was Mossad!""

At last!! A statement from Keith A that has the ring of truth!!....ABOUT BLOODY TIME!

He ""has no way of knowing, anymore than myself or Jim""

Yet he has decided that his lack of knowledge means Israel were not involved and has, without such knowledge, categorically stated, AS A FACT, his opinion, unsupported by any such knowledge, that Hamas were responsible.

Of course, if Mossad had masterminded a scheme to provide such an excuse to lock down Gaza, Egypt would have responded in the same manner exactly, which is precisely what the Muslim Brotherhood have claimed to have happened.

But Keith, of course, knows better. His idols would never do such a thing, would they?

NEWSWFLASH!!.....They've DONE WORSE, which is where the relevance of Sabra/Shatila comes into play,......as proof that they have DONE MUCH WORSE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 PM

""but the fact remains that Israel was not condemned by the UN""

TRUE!!....And we all know why!   

The USA vetoes any UN move to bring Israel to heel, because it is terrified of the PRO Israel Zionist lobby inside its borders.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 05:01 PM

Anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist are two different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

Jim, Don accused me of missing points he had made.
I had missed none.
I always said that a thirty year old massacre of Arabs by Arabs was nothing to do with this discussion, and I have read everything you have ever posted on that subject over the years.

Don"They closed the tunnels".

Duhh! We knew that F**Kwit, we were discussing why, and who was responsible.

I have no way of knowing, anymore than you or Jim.
The government and security services and military of Egypt have formed a firm impression over the last seven months.
We do not know what it is, but it drove them to close and flood all the tunnels from Gaza.
They obviously do not think it was Mossad!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 11:31 AM

Jim and Don, none of that appeared on this thread.
Keith - every single link was cut'n pasted from higher up the thread.
Don't you ever get tired of lying in public?
It's very true that you have never been near them - if you mean you never bothered to read them.
As I said, ignored them; you dismissed them out of hand without proof, - several you responded to as anti-Israeli (implying Antisemitic, one you described as "gullible" and the Bedouin-to-toxic site you described an an "over-hyped non event (after described in glowing terms how well they were treated).
Stupidity = lying with the proof in front of you.
I take it we have no deal then?
999
"who have chosen to fall in line as soon as Israel is mentioned in any context"
Perhaps you'd like to give an opinion on Sabra/Shatila (an example of poor little Israel's take on democracy!
Don
Must learn to do the blue clickies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:54 AM

"Not true", or "Didn't happen", or "They closed the tunnels", are not answers, they avoid answering.

You routinely post such nonsensical responses to avoid having to justify your attitudes to a multitude of subjects.

A full screen of evidence that there is more than one possible reason gets the response "They closed the tumnnels".

Duhh! We knew that F**Kwit, we were discussing why, and who was responsible.

What do you believe was the constructive contribution to that discussion resulting from your inane comment?

Dishonesty is very much a part of your bag of tricks, not ours. You don't even post opinion any more, just denial, and your input has become a pathetic waste of hot air.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:38 AM

Jim and Don, none of that appeared on this thread.
I have never even been in a discussion of them.

Don, are you no longer claiming I have missed stuff on this thread?

You have both been caught being dishonest again.

"I have posted numerous accounts, but the most important are the ones I have VERY CLEARLY stated as being from Associated Press via ABC News."

Yes, and I responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

Well, y'all can natter at Keith to your hearts' content, but the fact remains that Israel was not condemned by the UN for the attack on Syria. The OP "stretched" the truth a little, and all you straight-forward folks who have chosen to fall in line as soon as Israel is mentioned in any context--whether it's true or not--make your subsequent arguments shallower than they need be.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM

Now he'll refuse until you make 'em into blue clickies Jim.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

Don't want to "embarrass" you Keith - you're making a far better job of showing yourself as a rabid fanatic than any of us possibly could.
However, as with my offer to Bruce (which he sadly ignored), I'll do a deal with you.
Below is a list of links which you have ignored, or dismissed as "off topic", gullibility on my part, or irrelevant (I particularly liked the description of moving the Bedouins to a toxic site as a "hyped up non-issue")
The list does not include the evidence that came without links; that would easily more than double the total.
You have set yourself up as the proud defender of the Israeli regime and have claimed to have responded to every point.
The deal is - wait for it - I will happily point out Don's input to this thread if you show us how you have addressed this evidence.
I'm feeling in a particularly generous mood today - must have been that tremendous blast of music last night!
Yours in anticipation.
Jim Carroll

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/#ixzz2JxSAeUMd
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/31/un-panel-concludes-israeli-settlement-policy-illegal-under-international-law/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/28/at-last-the-truth-about-sabra-and-chatila-massacres/
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/19/262446/israels-american-license-for-genocide/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement
http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_acfNfFkgw
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/10/23/survey-of-israeli-racism-58-of-jews-label-their-state-apartheid/
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/briefing-papers/1230-israels-discrimination-against-its-arab-citizens
http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=296430
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21819/women-s-rights-in-israel-girls-as-young-as-3-face-gender-discrimination
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israeli-rabbis-ban-home-sale-and-rental-non-jews-2010-12-07
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33429.htm
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html
http://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf