BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:51 AM

Hey, Spaw-

Good old Wendell Phillips, eh? He never gets the credit he deserves.

Be well-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:15 AM

Do you know what I missed then Jim?
Embarrass me.
Post it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM

GREG AND KENDALL.....READ THIS

You two crack me up.....and btw, is "crack up" a pornographic expression?   LOL.....


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM

"The claim was malicious."
The claim has been made by many people with whom you have debated (sic) that you refuse to read what people place before you, - you have a long reputation of ignoring what people put up because it doesn't suit your case.
You have either denied without proof, or totally ignored anything that doesn't suit your case, then you have gone on to claim that posters haven't provided proof.
This has become an increasingly habitual practice of yours lately.
Should Don bother (I certainly wouldn't) to put up his evidence again, it will be totally ignored, you will continue to filibust this thread and eventually claim that nobody has put up anything to back up their arguments.
This forum is scattered with threads on which you have done this - your efforts on the 'Traveller Signs' thread was breathtaking.
Honesty doesn't appear to be one of your virtues, though, going by your practice of denying things that are in full view for all to see, stupidity certainly is!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

So you COULD say what I missed, but you don't want to.
Who will believe that?

If I have missed something say what it is and put me on the spot.
But you can't.
The claim was malicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 06:54 AM

Trouble is Keith, I spend time reposting what you didn't bother to read and digest, and didn't answer in any comprehensible way, merely nitpicking a single phrase or sentence to deny, and what happens?

The definition of insanity is constantly repeating an experiment in the hope of getting different results.

I'm not going to do it, because I am not the one who is playing games, and I am well aware that you don't want it repeated so that you might answer, but merely to avoid answering as before.

If you want it, GO LOOK FOR IT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:51 PM

Don I still can not find a point of yours that I have missed.
If there REALLY is one, stop playing games and tell us what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:20 AM

""Thanks Freda. I feel exactly the same, but I do feel that the Israeli action that instigated this thread was justified.""

You feel that any and every Israeli action is justified, as your posting record on numerous threads clearly shows.

That's why a hollow laugh is the only possible response to your ludicrous claim to share Freda's properly balanced point of view.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:13 AM

""Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up.""

I have posted numerous accounts, but the most important are the ones I have VERY CLEARLY stated as being from Associated Press via ABC News.

The closest you came to answering ANY of the points therein was your usual mantra "Not true, and anyway Egypt, Syria, Iran (delete inapplicable) is far worse"

You never answer points put to you. You trot out the same tired platitudinous repetition of your standard mantra, "Israel cannot ever be criticised because they are never wrong"

It is useless to deny it when it is obvious throughout every thread you post to.

And to cap it all off, you've just done the self same thing to Freda, ignoring the facts she presented, and telling her off for changing the subject, you arrogant twerp, something that you were busy doing last time I addressed you.

If you really can't find the posts you ignored, try opening your eyes while looking. I'm told that this can be surprisingly effective. I won't suggest opening the mind, as you are clearly incapable of doing so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:30 AM

Re what I think of Palestinians, I condemn Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, when they conduct attacks on Israeli civilians. But, equally, I condemn Israeli land-grabs as well as attacks in Palestine and am appalled by the routine disproportionate response of the IDF and the wanton destruction of innocent Palestinian civilians and their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:24 AM

Thanks Freda. I feel exactly the same, but I do feel that the Israeli action that instigated this thread was justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:16 AM

Re what I think of Palestinians, I condemn Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which conduct attacks on Israel. But I also am equally concerned about Israeli attacks in Palestine.

I don't condemn individual Jews for the actions of their leaders, just as I don't condemn individual Palestinians for the actions of those who choose violence. But I support and respect those Israelis, Palestinians and international peace workers in the area, who act or speak out for peace in the region.

I appreciate I'm lucky to live in a safe country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:06 AM

"Jim, if you want me to respond to something do not bury it in screenfulls of multicoloured text."
I do not want you to reply to anything - your opinion is of no interest to me whatever.
I do want you justify the fact that you one again you totally dominate a subject on which you have no knowledge whatever, and will, because of your insistence on having the last word, eventually run it into the ground.
I want you to justify your behavior in lying about other people's input into this tread while claiming that you have answered all the questions put to you, you have brought nothing of any interest or substance to this subject.
And most of all I WANT YOU TO STOP ATTEMPTING TO CONTROL THIS THREAD BY TELLING OTHERS HOW TO MAKE YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS - YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY HERE - DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME HOW TO MAKE MY POSTINGS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:50 AM

Sorry Freda.
I meant the opening post of this thread.

Jim, if you want me to respond to something do not bury it in screenfulls of multicoloured text.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:34 AM

OP Keith, do you mean Other Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:07 AM

"That happens a lot Jim.
I always thought it was deliberate"
That is an extremely small minded way of avoiding the points purt to you
Answer the questions - mine and everybody else's
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:12 AM

That happens a lot Jim.
I always thought it was deliberate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

Sorry about all the red - finger slipped
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:59 AM

"Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up."
This is arrogance in the extreme - why on earth should Don, or anybody "put up" anything for somebody who displays both an ignorance and a disinterest in this subject.
You have "replied to" nothing - you have simply DENIED the evidence put up by others - ALL THE EVIDENCE.
You seem to have appointed yourself as some sort of arbiter on a subject on which you have no knowledge whatever, indicating that you have also have no interest either.
Your sole input here has been to dismiss out of hand and without evidence, the knowledge other contributors obviously possess, and to either deny again without evidenc), or totally ignore reports, newspaper articles, eye witness accounts, even statements by Israeli government bodies... that others have taken the trouble to offer to this discussion.
YOU HAVE NEITHER PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THIS SUBJECT, NOR THE ENERGY OR INTELLIGENCE TO GO AND ARM YOURSELF WITH ANY         
Yet you have the astounding arrogance to ask.
"Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please."
You have been "fielding" nothing - if this is not the case, show us one scrap of credible evidence that you have presented other than 'Israel said they didn't do it your honour'.
"I think and believe that I have replied to all points put."
You have ignored or denied every single scrap of evidence of Israel's war crimes and abuses out of hand (without even bothering your arse to provide any contrary evidence of your own).
You are not an 'expert witness', you are both arrogant and lazy enough to demand that people bring their opinions to you for your consideration - don't psychiatrists have a word for that?
One again you have dominated a subject on which you know nothing whatever - your postings to date tot up to approaching 90 - sometimes in blocks of two, three, four, even five on one occasion - a little short of three times more than any other single contributor here.
"Freda, do you have a comment on the subject of the OP?"
And please don't talk down to other members of this forum who obviously have far more knowledge, intelligence and interest in these subjects than you do - just as you show clearly that you have no understanding of the subject, neither are you a chairmen of this discussion, so please don't attempt to pretend you have the authority or cudos to make demands here.
And by the way - please do not claim this to be a personal attack - it is a comment on your behaviour here and on this forum as a whole - others have pointed this out to you, here and elsewhere and it appears to be deteriorating with every thread you participate in.
But please don't despair - as serious as your case seems to be, help may be available, even at this late stage!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:44 AM

Don, I have gone right through the thread but found nothing.
I think and believe that I have replied to all points put.
I think and believe that your claim is malicious.
If you want my take on something, don't play games, put it up.

Steve, parrots repeat the same thing.
I modified my statement each time to comply with your objection to the wording.
If you have no more objections to the wording, please reply to the substance.

Freda, do you have a comment on the subject of the OP?
To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:49 PM

That's right, Freda. But just watch the bleating from Israel and/or the US when somebody else defies the UN. North Korea this very day, for example (who I do not defend, I hasten to add - I make the point simply to show the sheer hypocrisy of the US/Israel axis). Or when Iran "threatens" to have a nuclear weapon or two...


It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as one of the most racist in the world because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Hello, we seem to have a parrot in the house. No, wait a minute... parrots may keep repeating themselves, just like Keith, but at least they don't do it in the hope of making what they're saying more true...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:17 PM

GENEVA | Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:43pm EST

(Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators called on Israel on Thursday to halt settlement expansion and withdraw all half a million Jewish settlers from the occupied West Bank, saying that its practices could be subject to prosecution as possible war crimes.

A three-member U.N. panel said private companies should stop working in the settlements if their work adversely affected the human rights of Palestinians, and urged member states to ensure companies respected human rights.

"Israel must cease settlement activities and provide adequate, prompt and effective remedy to the victims of violations of human rights," Christine Chanet, a French judge who led the U.N. inquiry, told a news conference.

The settlements contravened the Fourth Geneva Convention forbidding the transfer of civilian populations into occupied territory and could amount to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the United Nations report said.

"To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination," Chanet said.

About 250 settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established since the 1967 Middle East war and they hold an estimated 520,000 settlers, according to the U.N. report. The settlements impede Palestinian access to water and farmland.

The settlements were "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it said.

After the General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the world body, Israel said it would build 3,000 additional settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - areas Palestinians want for a future state, along with the Gaza Strip.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Jim Hawkins
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:39 PM

The Middle East has given the world three intolerant and xenophobic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - that the world would be much better off without.

Modern Judaism, or Zionism, follows the mythical example of Joshua, taking land by force and genocide. Among the first victims of the Christian Crusades were other Christians, Semites who happened to look like Arabs. The Koran can be interpreted to inspire suicidal murderers with the promise of virgins in Paradise.

All three play the religion card when criticized, especially the Jews.

All are inspired by a common God who is nothing more than an invisible friend, albeit a malevolent and hateful figment of the collective imagination of past millennia.

Somehow the concept of do-as-you-would-be-done-by has been lost in translation. A plague on all their houses!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:20 PM

""Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please.""

IF you missed something? If it weren't so bloody consistent I might laugh about that.

And what precisely killed your last servant?

That material doesn't evaporate. It is still exactly where I left it and you skipped past it.

Go look, if you are interested, which I doubt.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:10 PM

It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as one of the most racist in the world because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:01 PM

Keith said:

It is bigotted prejudice [sic] to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

But now Keith, realising that this antisemitism slur (from a man who claims he never gets personal) bears not a shred of truth, says this:

It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as most racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

I actually said that Israel is one of the most racist countries.

And I've repeatedly pointed out that the incident in question was not isolated. I showed that football racism is endemic in Israel. And I'm a football fanatic myself (though I'm keeping quiet about Liverpool after last night). If you attend a match and indulge in racist chanting or attacks, you are a fanatic all right but you are not a football fanatic. This is your third or fourth attempt to try to sidestep this issue by pretending it's only footie/an isolated incident/a tiny minority/it's all worse somewhere else/it's just football fanatics. Keith, this has been going on for decades. It has not been addressed. The racism - and racist violence - is directed against Arabs. I think there's evidence here that it shows the state doesn't take racism against Arabs seriously. And why should anyone be surprised by that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

Sorry Steve.
It is bigoted prejudice to denounce Israel as most racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Don, If I missed something it was not deliberate.
I have been fielding a mass of stuff from you three.
Post it again please.

Stringsinger, there has always been vigorous dissent and opposition in Israel.
It is called democracy, and it is the only one around there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:19 PM

In former posts I maintained that there were some Israelis who didn't go along with the knee-jerk AIPAC propaganda or the Netanyahu administration. There are enlightened people in Israel who see what their government is doing as a dead-end street.
No country has been able to maintain its reputation as an occupier forever. History will reveal their dictatorial status.

The Palestinians are being persecuted by the Netanyahu regime. The evidence is abundant for this and only those who have a bias are in denial about this.

In must be restated that Judaism is a religion and that this tends to obscure a reasoned approach to the resolution of this issue. You have hot-headed proponents of Israel yelling a lot now as their government's actions are being disclosed internationally. There are many of Jewish heritage or background who condemn Israel's aggression.
Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Norman Finkelstein, Uri Avnery, and others both religious and non-religious are becoming more vocal. Boycott, Sanctions and Disinvestment is one way to deal with Israel's intransigence.

This is not an issue of taking sides. The former violence on the Hamas side has to be taken into account but at the moment, Palestinians have opted for non-violent resistance to make their case. Israel responds by tyrannical violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:37 PM

""There is no need to make these debates personal.
Just challenge what is posted instead of attacking the poster.""

There is a very good idea. How about you putting your money where your mouth is and responding to what is posted instead of dismissing or ignoring it to chant your mindless "Israel is good, Israel does no wrong, and anyway everybody else is worse" mantra?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:21 PM

It is bigotted prejudice [sic] to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Yes, it would be had I done it. But I didn't, did I.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 08:14 AM

I defy anybody here to read through the threads that you have dominated and filibusted and claim that your input has not been racist or bigoted

On those threads people did just that Jim.
Remember?
There is no need to make these debates personal.
Just challenge what is posted instead of attacking the poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:50 AM

There are dumps for toxic waste, and there are ordinary garbage dumps like this one.

Those responsible for the dumps have to make them safe for the neighbours or they get dragged through the courts.

It is not a whole ethnic group being moved.
How big would the dump have to be?
Try to be rational and objective, and stop trying to make it personal again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 07:01 AM

"I offer objectivity Jim."
You offer nothing Keith other than race or culture hatred, your bigoted defence could not in a thousand years be described as "objective"
Anything that (admitted by the state authorities, and by scientist - look up the definition) poisons water is TOXIC - Children playing on or near rubbish dumps of that type and size could easily be poisoned that makes it TOXIC - show how this isn't the case.
The forcible moving of an entire ethnic group to an area where they are likely to be poisoned and where, even if this was not the case, is STATE FASCISM .
"It is dishonest."
No Keith; dishonesty is ignoring researched information, or denying it out of hand without proof - you do that constantly - especially on the last couple of threads - this one in particular where you have not even tried to offer either knowledge nor documented proof.
"hate against me"
I don't hate you Keith - I don't know you, nor do I want to.
I detest the racism and murderous bigotry that you persistently defend.
I also detest what you have done to this forum. Between us we have destroyed thread after thread - I realise my part in this and apologise - I do not apologise for being concerned enough for trying to stop your using Mudcat as a racist soapbox, which is what I have responded to -rabbit-in-headlights.
You, on the other hand, refuse to acknowledge what damage we have done between us - see your gobsmacking postings to the 'Mudcat DISCUSSION@ thread - unbelievable arrogance!!
I defy anybody here to read through the threads that you have dominated and filibusted and claim that your input has not been racist or bigoted - starting with this one and going on tgo your Muslim prejudice, Traveller signs, Syria... et al efforts.
Incidently - you ask why Israel - this forum is about Israel - that is what we are discussing.
But far more importantly, I can think of no greater insult to the dead and Auschwitz and Balsen.... for a mainly Jewish state to behave in the same manner to other races as that which sent six million Jews to the gas chambers - that is what you have persistently defended here.
And you have the nerve to call us Antisemites!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:00 AM

I offer objectivity Jim.
Why call it a toxic waste dump when it is not?
It is dishonest.

That massive spew of hate against me, but not one single challenge to anything I have said, because it is all honest, objective and true.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 04:21 AM

This thread sums up your whole attitude to humanity.
You have been presented with a mass of evidence of Israeli atrocities, war crimes, mass murder, the fascism of taking whole community and moving them onto a toxic waste dump, or displacing them in order to expend their own power and influence, built-in inequalities towards non-Jews, the regular slaughter of non-combatants - men, women and children - old and young, destruction of homes, the horrendous use of chemicals on ordinary citizens, destruction of hospitals and schools, the persecution and starvation of a whole nation in pursuit of their land,.....
You have accused groups like the UN and Amnesty of Anti Semitism because they have protested the war crimes being committed which are being defended by US vetos, supported by Britain and all the other gofers.
You have described three thousand murdered refugees as "the enemy", in order to explain away Israel's part in their massacre.
Now you totally ignore an officially and carefully carried out report on the Apartheid-like built-in inequalities of the Israeli state, totally at odds with your own land-flowing-with-milk-and-and honey description of what is really happening there.
YOU OFFER NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER TO YOUR VICIOUSLY DISHONEST CLAIMS, JUST DENIAL.
THERE WAS A TIME WHEN YOU'D HIDE BEHIND CAREFULLY SELECTED CUT-'N-PASTES, (SOMETIMES DOCTORED, BUT AT LEAST YOU'D PUT IN SOME EFFORT INTO SEARCHING THEM OUT). NOW YOU SEEM TO HAVE ABANDONED EVEN THAT, REPLACING THEM WITH EXCUSES OF YOUR OWN INVENTION
You show not a shred of humanity for the victims of Israeli terror - they are, in your own words, "the enemy" and deserving of ill treatment and slaughter.
You show no personal understanding or even interest in the subjects under discussion, which you turn into a war of attrition which you will filibust out of existence until your 'last man standing' approach drives away those genuinely interested and concerned who do bring some knowledge and humanity.
You don't even appear to be interested in the subjects you take over and destroy; if you were, you'd show some fore-knowledge - Travellers, British Muslims, victims of Syrian killers, even Ireland, which you claim to have some connection with - you appear to have neither feeling, understanding nor interest in the mass of humanity that you insult by using as a platform for your attention-seeking ego-tripping.
I said earlier that the only reason for taking part in these threads is to allow you to show us what a vacuously inhuman individual you are, but you seem to manage that without anybody's help nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 03:03 AM

11 January 2013 19:52. Anzhi Makhachkala defender Christopher Samba believes the issue of racism is 'killing the game'.
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:59 AM

Guardian today.
"Massimo Moratti sorry for Inter fans' racist abuse of Mario Balotelli"
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:58 AM

Guardian headline last week.
"Milan friendly abandoned after players protest against racist chants"
Why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:52 AM

Israel as a whole is one of the most racist nations on the planet.
This tells us more about you than Israel.
You made up your mind at an early age and see only that which confirms your prejudice.
Israel has equality and anti-discrimination laws which alone make it better than neighbours who deny ctizenship to minorities like Bedouin and Palestinians and legally discriminate against them in employment, housing etc.

Where did those laws come from.
Those racist Israelis demanded them from their leaders and even the most Right wing parties dare not challenge them.
So why single out Israel.

After 80 years of Arabs killing ordinary Jews and their children you would expect Israel to be racist, but mostly they are not.
So why single out Israel.

Racism in football is found globally, so why single out Israel?

Football supporters are a tiny minority of Israelis, and the racists a smaller group still.
It is bigotted prejudice to denounce all Israeli Jews as racist because of a tiny group of Far Right football fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM

This is not just football hooliganism, Keith. It is football crowd racism and it is directed at Arabs and it is endemic in Israeli football. I've given you enough demonstration of that. Deny it if you want, but you'd be wrong. Yes it happened here (note past tense). We dealt with it and, bar a few isolated relatively minor incidents, which are always squashed and dealt with severely, it is now the exception. So much so that even minor outbursts such as one man in the crowd making monkey noises or a footballer making an unpleasant remark to another are not only stamped on but also make big news. Israel are where we were 30 years ago and, apart from the formulaic expressions of disgust from one or two politicians, nothing is done. I suppose a very large number of Israeli football fans think it's OK to behave like that and I don't suppose they'd worry too much about behaving the same discriminatory way in other areas of life. There's plenty of testimony from Arab residents of Israel to confirm that. A very large number of Israeli citizens may not be racist, but the nation of Israel as a whole is one of the most racist nations on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:53 PM

Jeri, must I marry all this mob?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:52 PM

Jim you could make a list like that about any country.
Hispanics and Blacks in US.
Travellers in Ireland.
Jews and Christians in any Arab country.
Why single out Israel?

At least in Israel the law is unequivocal.
All are equal under the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:48 PM

Steve, there are football hooligans or equivalent in every country.
You would not judge any other country by its football hooligans, (Scotland?! Belgium?) so why single out Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:46 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."

It certainly is!
It is an ordinary garbage dump such as thousands of Brits, including neighbours and friends, live near in perfect safety.
Because all are equal under the law, the Bedouin were able to use the courts to get the move prevented anyway.
And anyway, anyone harmed by a badly maintained dump would be able to sue those responsible for ruinous compensation.

It really is just a hyped up non-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM

Don.

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment,

No Don.
I wanted to keep to that subject because the action was legitimate and justified.
For the same reason all your mates needed to change it, and they won.
So we did end up discussing Bedouin persecution and you and your mates really did not want it mentioned that the ones in Israel are the lucky ones.
Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white
Never claimed any of that.
Just that it is much better than its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

INEQUALITY REPORT -THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MINORITY IN ISRAEL

MAIN FINDINGS

THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK OF INEQUALITY
Inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel span all fields of public life and have persisted over Lime. Direct and indirect discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel is ingrained in the legal system and in governmental practice.
The right to equality and freedom from discrimination is not explicitly enshrined in Israeli law as a constitutional right, nor is it protected by statute. While Supreme Court justices have interpreted The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty as comprising the principle of equality, this fundamental right is currentiy protected by judicial interpretation alone.
The definition of the State of Israel as a Jewish state makes inequality and discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel a reality and a political project. The pairing of "Jewish" and "democratic" both codifies discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and impedes the realization of full equality.
Numerous groups of Palestinian citizens of Israel face "compound discrimination" or multiple forms of discrimination on the basis of both their national belonging as Arabs/Palestinians and their membership in one or more other distinct subgroups, such as women, the disabled and the elderly.
More than 30 main laws discriminate, directly or indirectly, against Palestinian citizens of Israel, and the current government coalition has proposed a flood of new racist and discriminatory bills which are at various stages in the legislative process.

CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws—including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952) —privilege Jews and Jewish immigration.
If the spouse of a Palestinian citizen of Israel is a Palestinian resident of the OPT, it has been virtually impossible for him or her to gain residency or citizenship status in Israel since May 2002. This ban on family unification is totally disproportionate to the alleged security reasons cited by Israel to justify it; rather, it is motivated by the state's desire to maintain a Jewish demographic majority.
A new law makes it possible to strip Israeli citizenship for various reasons related to alleged "disloyalty" to the state or "breach of trust", indirectly targeting the citizenship rights of Palestinian citizens. Several attempts to pass additional laws that grant the authority to revoke citizenship and impose further loyalty oaths are currently pending in the Knesset.

INCOME/POVERTY
Arab families are greatly over-represented among Israel's poor: over half of Arab families in Israel are classified as poor, compared to an average poverty rate of one-fifth among all families in Israel. Arab towns and villages are heavily over-represented in the lowest socio-economic rankings, and the unrecognized Arab Bedouin villages in the Naqab are the poorest communities in the state.
Gaps in income and poverty rates are directly related to institutional discrimination against Arab citizens in Israel.
Redistribution of resources and social welfare
Although the right to equality demands that states take positive steps to bridge the gaps between the various population groups, the State of Israel actively seeks to promote and direct resources to Jewish citizens as a privileged majority within the "Jewish State". In many policy areas, including the designation of "National Priority Areas" and the use of the military-service criterion to allocate resources, the state actively preserves and perpetuates inequalities between Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel.
The state has consistently failed to take adequate and effective action to address the phenomenon of absolute and relative poverty among the Arab minority in Israel. Where it has initiated development programs targeting the Arab minority, such as the "Multi-Year Plan", the state has tended to implement them partially, gradually, or not at all.
Direct state policy measures to reduce poverty disproportionately target Jewish citizens, with the result that poverty rates have fallen far more sharply among Jewish citizens than among their Arab counterparts, and inequalities have consequently persisted.

EMPLOYMENT
Palestinian citizens of Israel often face discrimination in work opportunities, pay and conditions, both because of the inadequate implementation of equal-opportunity legislation and because of entrenched structural barriers, which particularly affect women, and include poor or non-existent public transportation, a lack of industrial zones, and a shortage of state-run daycare centers. Palestinian citizens are also excluded from the labor force by the use of the military-service criterion as a condition for acceptance for employment, often when there is no connection between the nature of the work and military experience.
Unemployment rates remain significantly higher among Arab than among Jewish citizens, and the rate of labor-force participation among Palestinian women citizens of Israel, at just about 20 %, is among the lowest in the world.
Palestinian citizens of Israel in general, and women in particular, continue to be sorely underrepresented in the civil service, the largest employer in Israel (in total, Arabs constitute just around 6% of all civil service employees), despite affirmative-action legislation stipulating fair representation for the Arab minority and for women.
The lack of development and investment in Arab towns and villages inside Israel and the unexploited or under-exploited human resources of the members of the Palestinian minority inhibit the growth of the Israeli economy. The lost potential to Israel's economy has been estimated at around US$ 8 billion per year by the Organisation for Economic Co¬operation and Development (OECD).

http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:45 PM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.

I didn't say there were. I said that they might feel disenfranchised. Surely you didn't think I just meant whether they get to vote or not. The fact that you can't tell the difference either means you're having a bloody bad day or that you are being wilfully stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

Here you are, Keith. From last April, nothing to do with this latest incident.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-s-time-to-intervene-against-racism-in-israeli-soccer-1.422040

Only in Israeli soccer can a club block Arabs from joining its ranks, and harsh violence is treated solely as a disciplinary infraction, to be handled by the Israel Football Association's internal court. The anarchy and lack of police enforcement have turned Israeli soccer into a source of violence, racism and hatred, and has even started to attract dubious characters, who at times manage the teams.

The IFA is subordinate to international sports institutions, such as UEFA, the Union of European Football Associations, and FIFA, the international association, and vehemently refuses the involvement of the Culture and Sports Ministry. But after several years in which Culture and Sports Minister Limor Livnat has proven incapable of getting rid of the rot that has penetrated Israeli soccer, it's time for her to get into the thick of things.

She must adopt the model that has been successfully used in Britain, which combines persistent, preventive police action against hooligans and tough sentences against violent fans. The State of Israel cannot allow a situation in which a sport avidly followed by hundreds of thousands of people, among them many youngsters, turns into an untreatable abscess of racism and violence.

Not demonisation, not made-up shit, Keith. Concern expressed by reasonable people who want to face the truth of a long-time endemic culture in Israel. We tackled it here in the UK. Israel are thirty years behind us. You have to wonder if they have the will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM

We seem to have established that moving whole communities to toxic garbage dumps is a "hyped up non-issue."
Let's try this one on equality.
Jim Carroll
"While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.[174]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 12:33 PM

""But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.""

No, the subject was an incursion into Syria and the destruction of Syrian Personnel and Equipment, on the flimsiest of excuses that the equipment was arms for Hezbollah, which has not as yet been proved to be the case.

Or rather that's what it was until the volume of evidence showing precedents for such Israeli behaviour became too strong for you to handle, and you ran for cover in your long established fashion by scattering blame everywhere else but where it belongs.

Egypt is evil, Syria is evil, Hezbollah and Lebanon is evil, Iran is too, and on and on and on ad nauseam, but Israel is a heaven for all its citizens and it is whiter than white and squeaky clean in the way it treats its neighbours...........and that's the point where nausea really sets in.

Don T.