BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

Arabs are not disenfranchised.
They have the same voting rights and every other right as Jews.

It was a single incident, not a running sore.
Every team has Arab players.
Check your headline, "Israelis shocked by..."
The leadership of the country were moved to denounce it.

"Condemnation of the hardcore fans' behaviour has been swift and harsh.
Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Friday's apparent arson attack was "shameful", adding: "The Jewish people, [who have] suffered boycotts and persecution, should be a light unto other nations."

Beitar's manager, Itzhik Kornfein, told Israel Radio on Friday: "This has gone beyond sports and this has ramifications for Israeli society and for how we look to the world."

Earlier, President Shimon Peres said the entire country was shocked, and former prime minister Ehud Olmert, a Beitar fan for more than 40 years, said that he would no longer attend matches because of fans' behaviour. "Ultimately, this is a matter that concerns all of us. Either we remove this group of racists from our field and cut it off from the team, or we are all like them. Until that happens, I will not go to games," he wrote."

Did you not read your own link Steve?
Why SO DESPERATE to demonize Israel that you have to make shit up?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.

And why do you suppose Israel needs compulsory military service?

Yes, they are exempted, but they can join if they like. The numbers who choose to join are extremely low. That say anything to you about how Arabs in Israel feel thoroughly disenfranchised, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.

What "ethnic group" was I passing judgement on? And "one crime"?? It's a running sore in Israeli football, not a single incident.

If I put up a post condemning racist chanting at an English footie match, would you immediately jump down my throat and claim that I was demonising a "whole ethnic group"? So what's different here? You think I'm chomping at the bit to demonise Jews, is that it? Paranoia of the highest order, Keith, I'm afraid. Just like all those militant Zionist bedfellows of yours, you want to mark out any criticism of Israel as criticism of Jews and shout it down. First you try to trivialise my link, then you try to accuse me of passing judgement on all Jews. Just for once, why can't you do the honest thing and admit that there is a problem of discrimination against Arabs in Israel and that the link revealed one of its instances.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:44 AM

People have to live near garbage dumps here.
All those hazards are easily overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:31 AM

You really are going to condone the depositing of a whole community adjacent to a rubbish dump, aren't you?
Methane if it gets into the water supply becomes toxic
If it is mixed with other gasses it becomes toxic
Children playing on or near such rubbish dumps are liable to be hurt and poisoned - the Israeli Ministry for the Environment has stated that the dump "is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires"
The Amnesty report contains the following, which you have carefully forgotten to mention, "Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years."
The toxicity of a site this size, in fact will remain in the ground for decades.
This is how much of a 'non event' this potential war crime is.
I have wondered in the past whether you could possibly sink any lower in your defence of a terrorist state and your racist crusades - you continue to surprise me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 06:12 AM

Not toxic, just garbage, and it is not going to happen anyway, and the dump is due to close this year.
Another hyped up non-issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:41 AM

Are you really such a heartless bastard as to condone the removal of a whole community from their traditional lands to a TOXIC DUMP
"The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." - this description of the dump is from that well known Antisemitic group, THE ISRAELI MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
You really have any abandoned any vestige of self respect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:31 AM

Not toxic waste Jim.
Just garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM

The Israelis have not abandoned their plans to move the Bedouin next to A TOXIC DUMP - "The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage." but have possibly yielded to pressure due to the threat of being prosecuted for war crimes
The fact that they are still considering the plan makes them potential rather than actual war criminals (in this case alone - they have already committed war crimes).
The fact that they should consider carrying out such a murderous act, even after having been warned they they might be prosecuted for committing a war crime, says all that needs be said on the nature of the Israeli regime.
The Bedouin will have no final say in the decision.
Israel is indeed "not like nearby states" - it is a terrorist state with nuclear weapons.
This thread becomes yet another exercise in feeding the fanatic.
Jim Carroll

"The Bedouin, who are from the Jahalin tribe, will be given the opportunity to review and comment on the new proposal but will not be consulted before it is drawn up, Palestinian sources said."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:54 AM

Out of date info again Jim.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/bedouin-community-wins-reprieve-from-forcible-relocation-to-jerusalem-garbage-dump-1.411248

Israel is not like nearby states.
Everyone has rights and access to law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:49 AM

I see Keith isn't the only Troll on this thread -
Before it gets closed down; Amnesty's take on the Bedouin's treatment in Israel - antisemitc, no doubt
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL: CANCEL PLAN TO FORCIBLY DISPLACE JAHALIN BEDOUIN COMMUNITIES
"Thousands of Bedouin are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan"
Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme
Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak should cancel military plans to forcibly displace around 2,300 Bedouin residents of the West Bank to an area beside the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing paper.
In Stop the Transfer: Israel about to expel Bedouin from homes to expand settlements, the organization calls on the Israeli military to order an immediate halt to all demolitions in the 20 communities affected by the plan.
Amnesty International said that verbal promises made by Israeli military officials last week not to implement pending demolition orders in Khan al-Ahmar, one of the Bedouin communities targeted for displacement in the Jerusalem district of the occupied West Bank, are insufficient.   
"Thousands of Bedouin living in some of the most vulnerable communities in the West Bank are facing the destruction of their homes and livelihoods under this Israeli military plan. Many are registered refugees and some have been displaced multiple times since 1948," said Ann Harrison, Deputy Director for Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa Programme.
"The Israeli authorities must guarantee the right to adequate housing for residents in all 20 communities, along with Palestinians throughout the occupied West Bank. This means protecting them from forced evictions and conducting genuine consultations with all of the communities."
In July 2011, Israel Civil Administration officials first told UN agencies of a plan to evict some 2,300 residents of 20 Bedouin communities in the Jerusalem district to a site approximately 300 metres from the Jerusalem municipal garbage dump.
The communities are all currently located near illegal settlements in the Ma'ale Adumim settlement bloc, many of them in areas targeted for settlement expansion.
The Israeli military considers most structures in these communities – located in Area C of the occupied West Bank, where Israel retains authority over planning and zoning – to be built illegally without the required permits. However, construction permits are almost impossible to obtain for Palestinian communities in Area C. Most of the structures in these communities have demolition orders against them, including homes, kitchens, external toilets, animal shelters, and two primary schools.   
The Israeli military authorities have not consulted representatives of the Bedouin communities about the displacement plan. Community representatives have told Amnesty International that they reject the plan because it would be impossible for them to maintain their traditional way of life if they were moved to a restricted area near the garbage dump.
Israel forcibly moved Bedouin families to the same area in the late 1990s, placing homes as close as 150 metres to the garbage dump. Bedouin who live there have told Amnesty International that the site was unsuitable to their way of life, that they had had to sell off their livestock due to a lack of grazing areas, and that they suffered high rates of unemployment. Some have returned to the areas from which they had been displaced.   
According to the Israeli Ministry of Environmental Protection, the dump receives up to 1100 tons of garbage per day, most of it from Jerusalem. The ministry has stated that the dump site creates air pollution, ground pollution, and possible water contamination, is improperly fenced-off, and poses a "danger of an explosion and fires" due to untreated methane gas produced by the decomposition of garbage.
Although disposal of waste at the site is due to cease later this year, no rehabilitation plan has been agreed, which means that the environmental hazards will likely remain for years.
Israeli officials have emphasized that the displacement plan envisions connecting relocated Bedouin communities to the electricity and water networks. They have not explained why Israel can provide such services to illegal settlements and unrecognized settler outposts in the West Bank, but not to longstanding Bedouin communities.
The 20 Bedouin communities have created a "protection committee" to coordinate their response to the displacement plan. The committee's stated preference would be to return to their lands in Israel's Negev desert from which they were displaced by the Israeli authorities in the 1950s, in accordance with their internationally recognized right to return.
The Bedouin communities say that their second option would be for Israeli authorities to recognize their rights to remain in their current homes, connect them to water, electricity and road networks, and lift arbitrary restrictions on their movement. Due to these restrictions, many Bedouin must buy animal fodder for sheep and goats that they were formerly able to graze, forcing them to sell their livestock.
As the final option, the Bedouin would be willing to negotiate the possibility of relocating again, if the Civil Administration treated them as equal negotiating partners.
Major-General Eitan Dangot, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, visited the Khan al-Ahmar community last week, and reportedly promised residents that that their homes and community school would not be demolished, and that they would not be transferred to the site next to the garbage dump. He said that the community would be moved to a different site in the occupied West Bank.
But Amnesty International said that was not enough.
"Israeli military officials are putting a gloss on their plans by portraying them as a way of providing Bedouin with basic amenities such as water and electricity, but in fact such forcible relocation of Bedouin would merely perpetuate years of dispossession and discrimination AND COULD CONSTITUTE A WAR CRIME," said Ann Harrison.
"Informal promises are not enough for these communities. The Israeli Minister of Defence must issue a formal cancellation of this policy."
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-cancel-plan-forcibly-displace-jahalin-bedouin-communities-2012-02-08

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:28 AM

Do you have a video of the Crow Sister? Of Arabs working with Jews to bring the present Israeli government to its senses regarding the settlements? If so, please post. I'd love to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM

"From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM
Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope."

They already ARE working in solidarity with Arabs 999. They already are spreading the same message.

JVP actively oppose the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, just the same as Arabs do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:26 AM

Steve.
One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country.

Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis, so yes that is perfectly correct.
Also they are exempted from compulsory military service.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:09 AM

Yeah. And when Arabs start saying the same things those Jews are, maybe change will happen and then there'll be an outbreak of peace. One can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM

If you read your own link you will see it was roundly condemned in Israel and people arrested and charged.

You are passing judgement on a whole ethnic group on the basis of one crime by a group of far-Right football hooligans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:56 PM

Indeed, Freda. I'm sorry I missed that link when CS put it up. It's wonderful. What a shame that there are so many race-hate comments underneath it. One there that Keith himself might have proudly typed:

What a joke. Israeli Arabs have more rights in israel than they do in any other arab country. This should be plainly obvious to everyone by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:06 PM

Guest CS, what a great video - thanks for posting. It's informative to hear from brave Jewish voices for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:30 PM

Please yourself. When I say it's symptomatic of Israeli attitudes to Arabs I'm talking about an attitude endemic in the country that has not been effectively addressed. Outrages at football matches in this country one tenth as bad as that one are roundly condemned here (as Luis Suarez discovered), and their incidence has reduced to almost nil. What I am not saying, just as I would not have said about violence and racism at football matches here in the 50s, 60s and 70s, is that it meant everyone in the country was racist. There are racist bigots everywhere, but we can usefully judge a country by what they do about it. The fact that Israel has 70s-style difficulties of this kind at their matches speaks volumes about where they are along the road to fighting racism. And that is not very far. And you do have to wonder whether they care.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

From your story Steve.
"Beitar, the only Israeli club to have never signed a player from the 20% of the country's population that is Arab"

It is racist to judge all Jews in Israel by a subgroup of the supporters of one football team.
Especially now that team has Muslim players too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM

No Steve.
Football hooligans are a thuggish subset of a community.
To draw a conclusion about all Israelis from that incident is racist bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:59 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

I can't believe you'd discount such a thing so cynically. In microcosm, it's all about Israeli attitudes to Arabs, Keith. Israel apropos of racism is about where we were (and where you are still) in the 1950s. What goes on in a football crowd and what has yet to be addressed is a prime symptom of a nation's cultural/racial issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 03:47 PM

Real BBC quote.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."

Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."


Bedouin who serve in Israel's army


Many Bedouin Arabs serve in the Israeli army and security forces

By Rachid Sekkai
BBC Arabic Service, northern Israel

The traditional view of the Arab-Israeli conflict is of Jews fighting Muslims. But that image does not always reflect the truth.
In fact, there are thousands of Muslim Bedouin who serve in the Israeli army, or IDF, and even bear arms against their fellow Muslims in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
They do so although it is not compulsory for them to serve in the Israeli military, as it is for most Israeli Jews, and sometimes military service comes with a price tag.
"I will do whatever is required from me to do the job with the full faith in the service of the Israeli state," asserts Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan.
He is happy to perform his duty, whoever he may have to fight against.

Bedouin have fought and died alongside Jewish Israelis in the army
"Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. That includes Israel's three-week Operation Cast Lead which began in December last year.
"And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."
Israel's Bedouin are a Muslim, Arabic-speaking group. Although these formerly nomadic people were once considered part of the Palestinian nation, most of them are now proud to call themselves Israelis.
Co-operation between Jews and Bedouin began before the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948.
In 1946, tribal leader Abu Yusuf al-Heib sent more than 60 of his men to fight alongside Zionist forces against their Arab neighbours in Galilee.
More than 60 years on, Maj Fallah's devotion to the Jewish state was unequivocal. He even refused to be interviewed by me in Arabic, insisting: "I have better command of Hebrew."
Military service is a family tradition in many Bedouin villages, especially those located in the north of Israel.
During my conversation with Maj Fallah, two men were standing listening to us. They were his cousins and both wore the uniform of the IDF.
"It's a legacy - it's something that has been passed on from generation to generation in my family," Maj Fallah explains.
"My father and his father served in the army too."
Potential conflict
The Israeli army does not publish statistics about the exact number of non-Jewish enlisted soldiers, although it says hundreds of non-Jewish Israeli citizens - Muslims, Christians and Druze - join up every year.
Their numbers have grown rather than decreased since the controversial military assault on Gaza.
        
When I was in the army, they said it would be easy for me to get the job. I applied for a lot of things but it wasn't easy
Maher, Bedouin recruit
The Israeli military official responsible for minorities is Col Ahmed Ramiz.
He is Druze, another Arabic-speaking ethnic group with a presence in Israel and other parts of the Middle East.
He told me that the main obligation for any citizen of Israel "is to defend his country and to serve in the IDF".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:44 PM

It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema
Only if you have a false impression based on hatred Don.
Every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it?
No. The subject was persecution of Bedouin.
They are persecuted in Egypt, but not in Israel.

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.
Er, no Don.

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.
I remember the one about Israel destroying Assad's nuclear facility, for which the world is grateful, and I posted about it.
What did I miss Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:03 PM

""Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.""

My posted facts were not from an extreme anti Israel source Keith, but from ABC News and Associated Press.

Was that the reason for your ignoring the whole lot, because they were from impeccably credible sources?

And we aren't going to allow you to sidetrack this thread. You accused us of trying to change the subject. Now we won't allow you to do the self same thing. So answer the points put to you, or quit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

""Israel does not mistreat its minorities.""

LIE!

You have been presented with irrefutable evidence that it does.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:49 PM

""Khaldi is still a proud Bedouin and believes that a Jewish state is in the best interest of Israel's minorities.""

One uncle Tom doth not an inclusive nation make! Especially when he is glossing over the treatment of his fellows. It is also difficult to believe that a genuine Arab would see a "Jewish State" as anything but anathema. An "Israeli State", well maybe, but it still ignores the plight of his kind.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

""In a crowded country you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want.
Israel is doing its best for their Bedouin and their population is thriving.
Let's here some condemnation of the persecution of Bedouin in Egypt.""

But talking about Egypt would bechanging the subject wouldn't it? Just what you accused us of doing?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM

Jim, the fake BBC Wiki quote was about "unrecognised" villages.
Some are near a toxic site.
Israel is trying to relocate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:34 PM

An interesting article from the Harvard's Institute of Politics.

The Plight of the Syrian Kurds

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

Steve, that is a story about football?

Jim, your quote was not BBC but Wiki, and the other from an extreme anti-Israel site.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:07 PM

Israel doesn't mistreat its minorities, huh?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/10/beitar-jerusalem-counts-cost-arson

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for that video Freda. Jewish youth are increasingly becoming aware and active in such ways.

And for those who lob "self-hating Jew" around at any Jewish critique of Israeli policies, this video demonstrates how blatantly false such an accusation is. Instead, it shows just how proud such dissenting Jewish voices are to actively reclaim their longstanding Jewish spiritual and political tradition of, and identity as, activists for social justice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8dCIrO5kbw

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 12:58 PM

Don, I am grateful to Israel that Assad does not now have a nuclear capability, and so is the rest of the world outside of Iran.
You would be happy with it?

Israel does not mistreat its minorities.
Egypt does.

"Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.

Locked in this arid expanse, the Bedouins claim they have have been left to fend for themselves. Mistrust between the government and the Bedouins, some of whom allegedly collaborated with the Israeli military when it occupied Sinai in 1967, continues to fuel negative stereotypes about them."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jun/17/egypt-bedouin-risk-of-exclusion-citizenship-rights

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:55 AM

There is hope in the
younger generation

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:04 AM

And again
Jim Carroll
A mass forcible eviction, which seems the most likely outcome of the plans of the Israeli authorities, would be a breach of the Geneva Conventions – which is a war crime, for which there is personal criminal liability.
There are also grave environmental concerns with the proposed relocation site for many of the Jahalin Bedouin communities, which is located next to a potentially highly toxic rubbish dump east of Jerusalem.
Furthermore, B'Tselem and the Bedouin communities of Area C claim that the plan to expand Ma'ale Adumim will sever the connection between the southern and the northern part of theWest Bank for Palestinians – effectively ending the possibility of a two-state solution
http://palsolidarity.org/2011/12/khan-al-ahmar-forced-expulsion-of-bedouins-from-area-c/

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 09:00 AM

""Egypt's Bedouins who inhabit the triangular Sinai Peninsula which links Africa with Asia and covers an area of 23,500 square miles, say they do not enjoy full citizenship rights and are treated as second class citizens. They say they are not allowed to join the army, study in police or military colleges, hold key government positions or form their own political parties.""

The fact that Egypt, or any other country, ill treats a minority, makes that country wrong, evil and racist.

Israel is one of those countries and the fact that it has company in its mistreatment of minorities does not make it better than the others.

It makes them all equally wrong.

When will you grow up and realise that "Jimmy did it too miss, always was and still is an invalid argument.

And who is deperately changing the subject now?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:55 AM

From the Anti Semite BBC
Jim Carroll
"Half the Bedouin population lives in cities.* Bedouin settlements are amongst the most deprived in Israel, and are severely lacking in services such as public transport and banks. The rest of the 76,000 continue to live in tens of "unrecognized villages," some of which predate the existence of Israel.[9] These villages do not appear on any Israeli maps, and are denied basic services like water, electricity and schools. It is forbidden by the Israeli authorities for the residents of these villages to build permanent structures, though many do, risking fines and home demolition.[9] Several, including Wadi el Na'am, are located close to the Ramat Hovav toxic waste dump, and residents have suffered from higher than average incidences of respiratory illnesses and cancer.[13] The Israeli government frequently demolishes homes and sprays toxic pesticides onto crops in the unrecognized villages, including one episode where Bedouin homes were demolished to make way for the establishment of a Jewish town.[14] ..."
http://www.sciforums.com/BBC-on-Israel-s-Negev-Bedouin-policy-shame-t-71060.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM

""The danger is that, if we readily condone what Israel did, it will give them the heart to be a little bolder. Next thing we know, they'll be bombing alleged "nuclear installations" inside Iran.""

Yes Steve, there's precedent already established for that statement, as follows:-

""Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

Source ABC News and Associated Press.""

This was just one of the Israeli incursions I posted a few days ago, and which were studiously ignored by our Pro Israel fanatics.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 08:02 AM

Jim, if you mean the dump we discussed before, it is in Jerusalem, a few minutes walk from some of the holiest sites, and surrounded by apartments and offices.
It was NOT a toxic dump, but an ordinary recycling depot.
I even provided photos.
Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 06:23 AM

Wha......?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:44 AM

"This is interesting because 'condemnation' has figured heavily in the UN's lexicon for many, many decades. Archived news articles finds that in '56 the US wanted the UN to condemn the Soviets for doing bad things in Hungary. In '61 the Soviets, in a stroke of originality, wanted the UN to condemn the US for doing bad things in Latin America. In '74 the Brits wanted the UN to condemn the Greek Junta in Greece. In 1990 France asked the UN to condemn Iraq for acting like Iraq in the 80s. The list goes on and on of countries asking the UN to condemn other countries. It seems like the UN has been handing out condemnations like candy at the doctor's office, and I still don't know what it means. Or, more to the point: what difference does it make?"

Paragraph from the link posted on Feb 9 at 12:57 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 05:04 AM

"It is not a toxic waste dump"
Piss off Keith - you have been given the information which describes it as such - and earlier articles that have been pointed out to you have described the result of the dump's toxicity and how it has affected the childrens' health.
You are now deliberately covering up this, the same as you dismissed the malnutrition in Palestinian children due to the blockade - you really are a low-life shit.
"you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want."
The sites that the Bedouins have been evicted from have been occupied by them for generations
THEY HAVE BEEN EVICTED TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS AND THE RESULT IS THAT THEY ARE BEING POISONED - ISRAELS RESPONSE TO THE "BEDOUIN PROBLEM" chillingly familiar?
And now, having whined about thread drift you have drifted to a totally unrelated subject - as Steve Shaw rightly pointed out.
"What happens "next door" is entirely beside the point."
Don't you ever mention "thread-drift again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:50 AM

"Israel is an immigrant country, an assemblage of cultural groups from all over the world - a multiethnic state combining Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews, Bedouins, Druze, Arabs and more, who coalesce to make the country great," he explains. "We are compelled to find a common language and common ground, despite our differences."


Back with his family in their tiny house in Khawalid several months later, he determined to bring Americans over for a personal guided tour of his homeland - "the best place on earth, and the small part of it that is my wonderful village." It did not take him long to fulfill this vow: Soon after starting his studies at the University of Haifa, he was arranging visits for foreigners with the help of Prof. Barry Berger, director of the overseas student program. Eventually, he says, thousands of people came to learn about Bedouins in Israel "and the story of one Bedouin in particular who visited America."

Serving his country

Before earning a master's degree from Tel Aviv University in political science with a concentration in international relations, Khaldi did two years of voluntary service as a police officer, first with the border patrol and later in Jerusalem. His hand rested on a Koran at his swearing-in ceremony, and he notes that he was continuing the tradition of Bedouin men who have chosen to do military or national service since before the state was officially founded.



"I had put my life on the line for my country, and now I wanted to serve it as a diplomat. My idea was to explain Israeli society, culture and politics from the perspective of the Bedouin minority in the Jewish state. My ultimate goal was to advocate for Israel and dispel the myriad of erroneous 'facts' that are unfortunately often accepted as truth."

He is quick to add that he wasn't setting out to paint Israel as a perfect place. "Like every other nation in the world, Israel has its problems," he says. Nevertheless, he was blindsided by the ferocity of Israel hatred he encountered - especially among Jews - that often earned him a less-than-warm reception.

He took to reminding Americans that the United States is not perfect either, despite a much longer nationhood than Israel's. He explains that he believes in a positive approach, searching for solutions as a free member of a democracy, rather than less constructive avenues of criticism.

"I know discrimination in Israel continues to exist. But I feel it is our role, the younger generation's, to dedicate ourselves to the elimination of discrimination and to seek true economic and social justice throughout our society," writes Khaldi. "There is an African American [US] president, but that doesn't mean discrimination does not exist in America, and it also doesn't mean that African Americans should wash their hands of their country of birth."


Khaldi is still a proud Bedouin and believes that a Jewish state is in the best interest of Israel's minorities. "It was through their alliance with the emerging Jewish state that the Bedouins began to transcend the isolation that was part of their nomadic history," he relates to anyone who cares to understand this bit of Middle East history. "My family, too, has reaped the benefits of this alliance, receiving health care, education, job training and pensions. ... Israel's right to exist is my right and my people's right."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM

Guardian last August.
For the last two decades, the security situation in Sinai has rapidly deteriorated, fuelled by abject poverty, socioeconomic marginalisation and heavy-handed mistreatment of Bedouins, an ancient and proud community, by the Mubarak security apparatus. From the 1990s onwards, billions of US dollars were poured into developing the tourist industry in Sharm el-Sheik in south Sinai and the peninsula at large, with most jobs going to outsiders, not Bedouins. There was no trickle down to the local economy.

Similarly, Mubarak and his associates sold huge tracts of Sinai land to crony capitalists, angering Bedouins who felt excluded from the development of agricultural farms in their heartland.

Equally important, Mubarak unleashed his security thugs against restive Bedouins and humiliated and insulted their leaders, a sin that deepened the community's resentment against the Cairo authorities. Over the years many Bedouins have told me of their grievances against the Mubarak regime, stressing economic exploitation of their land and disrespect for their code of honour and values

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:31 AM

Moving the Bedouins adjacent to a toxic waste dump
It is not a toxic waste dump, it is an ordinary dump that in crowded countries like mine people do have to live next to.

In a crowded country you can not always let nomadic people set up wherever they want.
Israel is doing its best for their Bedouin and their population is thriving.
Let's here some condemnation of the persecution of Bedouin in Egypt.


Racism and religious bigotry appears to be rife in Israel - not "a few"
Not true. Jews are no more racist than anyone else Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 04:06 AM

"There are bound to be a few racists as in any country."
Moving the Bedouins adjacent to a toxic waste dump was the decision of the government - not "a few racists" You were fully aware of this yet you deliberately selected this racist act as an example of Israeli democracy - not a bad one as it happens, but not in the way you intended.
Arresting women for praying was the act of the Israeli police force, not of "a few racists".
As the article on the racism experienced by Jacob, the African, points out:
"The Israeli government can and should take measures to contain and discourage racist violence, says Jacob. Anything less amounts, in his words, to "really an underestimation of the dignity of the human being."
Racism and religious bigotry appears to be rife in Israel - not "a few" - this is by a people who were subjected by racism in the extreme - six million of them died at the hands of what - "a few racists"

"the enemies of any country"
I chose these examples mainly from Israeli papers or from recognised organisations like Amnesty so you could not make this charge, some of them you have used yourself to back up your own arguments, yet you still make it - are you really suggesting that all of these examples are "lies"?

"Why do you never criticise those neighbours for their much worse racism "
Because you have yet to show that their racism or bigotry is any worse than Israel's.
You have been squealing about "thread drift" throughout this discussion - the subject is Israel's behaviour, not Egypt.
You, not us, chose to tell us how democratic Israel was, selecting one of the worst examples of state persecution of an ethnic minority. - now choke on the result of it.

"Is it because they are Arabs"
Don't you dare accuse anybody here (other than yourself) of racist selection - not having devoted the time and effort you have in showing how culturally depraved, Pakistanis, Muslims, Asian - whatever. every time you post.

"I wish you two would just get married or something."
Nah Jeri - it would never work out - he likes to eat his egg from the blunt end, while I prefer the pointy end!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 02:24 AM

So, why do you single out a country for criticism when it is the most progressive country in the whole region, and all its neighbours have a much worse record?

Why do you never criticise those neighbours for their much worse racism and persecution of minorities.
Is it because they are Arabs and you have a lower expectation, or is it because of who the Israelis are?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 08:18 PM

Why single out Israel for your anger when they are treated much worse next door?

We single out Israel in this context because you singled out Israel as some kind of besieged bastion of democracy in the region, that's why. What happens "next door" is entirely beside the point. I beat up my neighbour and give him a black eye, but that's OK because next-door-but-two the bloke gave his wife two black eyes. That is primary school playground talk, Keith. As for unfair treatment of non-Jews within Israel, here, Keith - have a little read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

There are so many examples of the mistreatment of Arabs in Israel that I don't need to sift through to provide quotes. Read it for yourself.

As for the disgraceful, racist treatment of the Bedouin in the Negev, here's another read for you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/05/bedouin-negev-israel

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

I give up Jim.
A lot of people live in Israel.
There are bound to be a few racists as in any country.
You can google up stuff from the enemies of any country, but Israel is by far the nicest place in the whole region.

Back to the subject.

To recap, a vicious, evil regime that has been in a legal state of war with Israel for decades, tried to supply powerful weapons to internationally recognised terrorists, in violation of treaties and UN.

Israel was able to prevent the violation, with no collateral damage and little loss of life, and UN appears to be very happy with it.

So on this issue the Israel haters have no case at all.
No wonder they are frantic to change the subject.
FRANTIC!