BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:37 PM

Warning - thread drift.

"you are implying that if race means nothing, that racism means nothing."

I am implying no such thing. Racism certainly does exist but it does not mean that the word 'race' (or its derivatives), is a word I would use. As soon as that word is used (in whatever context) it gives credibility to the concept.

Of course discrimination, stereotyping and prejudice exist. We are taught to discriminate at a very early age. Stereotyping and prejudice, however, are negative and devisive. Why not use the words stereotype and prejudice instead of labelling someone or something as 'racist'.

If, however, I were Afro-American, I might be tempted to use the term to describe a person who had stereotyped me or acted against me in a prejudicial manner. I think, however, in an attempt to erradicate 'racism' against me and my people, I would try to rise above using the same tool that was used against me. I would not claim racism but would be more specific and use the term to describe the behaviour of the person as stereotyping or prejudicial.

Like I said, as soon as the word is used (in whatever form) we make what is essentially a false construct, a reality.

The dictionary that Carol used as a source carries this negative concept one step further to describe a certain 'class' of people as belonging to a certain race, "...a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics." I'd say thats a pretty broad definition.

Does that mean that everyone who has an income of $300,000.00 and has season tickets to the opera belong to a specific race? Seems to me that many groups of people have common interests, characteristics and habits. That doesn't make them a specific 'race'. The "English race" is a particularly bad example. Its actually laughable. There is absolutely no such thing. Time to get a new dictionary.

I've argued this point before and don't expect many converts so you can use whatever language you want. Just remember that your language is a method of telling people who you are. I have dropped the term from my language as I do not wish to perpetuate the myth or to indicate to others that I believe there are separate races.

Muslims are not a race, they are members of the same religion. Religion is a small part of a culture. Culture includes religion, language and a set of common beliefs handed down from generation to generation. I can, however, be a non-Muslim living in the middle east and still share the same language and beliefs. I don't have to be Muslim to live in the Middle East, speak Farsi and believe the Yankees should go home.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:34 PM

No, I don't think you are wrong to be appalled by those numbers. But I do think that where you are wrong is in the conclusions you are drawing from those numbers.

Instead of being appalled that 13 percent of Muslims in the UK are so upset with Western governments because of the wholesale slaughter of Muslims by those governments, and the unending support those governments are giving to some of the most repressive and cruel regimes in the world, that they see tactics like suicide bombing as the only viable way to bring an end to this wholesale slaughter and loss of liberty, you appear to be appalled that these people are responding with the only tools available to them.

Why do you consider the lives and liberty of non-Muslim Westerners to have more value than the lives and liberty of the Muslims in the parts of the world where the Western governments are interfering and causing such wholesale loss of life and liberty?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:23 PM

1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs

the other 9 think they are idiots

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

Agreed, Carol. Those protections should be equally available to everyone.

Guest - No, you're not wrong to be appalled about that. Neither are most Muslims wrong to be appalled at what the USA and Israel have done and are doing in the Middle East. Neither is Israel wrong to be appalled by suicide bombers who kill Israelis. Neither are Muslims wrong to be appalled by some of the vicious things people are saying about them on this forum and eslewhere. EVERYONE has good reason to be appalled by the whole mess, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:33 PM

Carol - one question - do you think I am wrong to be appalled that 13% of British Muslims are in support of the bombers?

OK - another one. Do you think I am wrong to be appalled that apparently quite a number of people on this board think it's an acceptable number?

(I don't even begin to understand the motivation behind your amazing hyperbole on racism).

And the 13% is not my number - it's the number the Times reported.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:16 PM

Sometimes they are used for self-serving purposes. And sometimes they offer people much needed protections. I just think those protections should be available to everyone, and not just certain categories of people.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:12 PM

Well, that depends where I am on any given day, Carol. ;-) Some places are safer than others.

My point was not intended to be aimed against you. It was merely a philosophical dissertation on the extreme overuse and irresponsible misuse of the words "racist" and "racism" in contemporary dialogue. It gets hurled at people capriciously and maliciously, often with no real justification...and it has been used many times as a weapon to destroy the careers of people who in fact were NOT any more racist than were their accusers...maybe less so. It has been used to blackmail people.

Kind of like the word "anti-semitism". Same deal. Think about it.

Remember how they "played the race card" in the O.J. Simpson trial? Did that do anything to further the cause of social justice? Not in my opion, it didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:04 PM

You might feel differently, LH, if you belonged to any of the groups you are tired of hearing about. But you don't. You belong to the most protected category of people on earth. It's easy to be nonchalant under your circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:53 AM

You're quite right, Dianavan, that "racism" is a word used these days mainly just to divide people. I'm very, very tired of hearing people accuse other people of racism....or sexism, for that matter.

(Not that those aren't real problems...I've just tired of those words being taken in vain by people just to harass and intimidate other people, and that's what I usually see being done when the word "racism" comes up in conversation.)

We all belong to one race: the Human race.

It is said that healthy minds look first at the similarities between various people, while the unhealthy minds focus instead on the differences. Every demagogue who wishes to divide people knows this...and it is the differences that he will harp upon and harp upon endlessly, in hopes that those differences will enable him to foment hostility, and to divide and conquer.

This is as true of Mullahs in Iran as it is of the Bush administration. They both play the divide and conquer game on people.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

Terry, I ask you the same question that I asked Mr. Egg.

If 13 percent (your number) of the people from your part of the world were racists, could we extrapolate that being from your part of the world causes racism?

And as our persistant GUEST has shown us, there are people in the US and the UK who think ALL Muslims should be exterminated. In fact, I encounter such people quite regularly. Maybe we should do a survey to find out what percentage of people feel this way. Based on my experiences it is a "significant and frightening" percentage of the people in those countries. So using your and Mr. Egg's line of reasoning, we can extrapolate that a "significant and scary" percentage of people in the US and the UK are really Nazis deep down in their precious little hearts, and so therefore being from those places causes people to become Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

I'm pretty much in agreement with Paul Burke on this one, dianavan.

Race is a construct of the human mind. As a concept it really has no basis in reality.

However, that doesn't prevent people from practicing discrimination against others based on perceived differences.

So why do we have a word to define prejudice and discrimination against people with what we consider to be biological differences, and we have a special word to define prejudice and discrimination against the people of only one religion, both of which carry a large social stigma for those who practice these forms of prejudice and descrimination, but we have none for this one category of people (Muslims), that carries no social stigma at all when it is practiced?

That in itself is racist (which I would argue is being practiced whenever a group of people is being treated as if they belonged to a separate race, regardless of whether or not they actually do).

Our society has created a category of people who are being robbed of their humanity in every possible way. They can be imprisoned under a special category created just for them ("enemy combatant") that isn't entitled to any of the legal protections that the rest of us enjoy. They can be discriminated against in every possible way and there is no social stigma whatever for those who practice this discrimination, and there is no word that carries any social stigma to describe those who practice this discrimination. That in itself is racism because it treats them as if they were a separate race, regardless of whether or not they actually are.

And since we agree that there really is no such thing as "race", even racism against people who are percieved to be biologically a different race falls into that same category... people being treated as if they belonged to a different race (but don't really, because there is no such thing as "race"). Why would you deny only one group of people the right to have the protections offered by a word like "racism", dianavan? It seems to me that it is your approach that is racist, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

More importantly, 5½ out of 6 Republicans think that George Dumbya and the BuShites are doing a wonderful job.

Now THERE'S a group motivated by a dangerous delusion with disastrous world-wide consequences.

Folks should be more conccerned about them than phantom "killer Muslims".

Then too, statistically folks are several million times more likely to die in a road accident caused by Been Drinkin' than anything put together by Bin Laden.

Helps to keep these "threats" in perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:29 AM

9 out of 10 Humans think that muslims are pieces of fermenting leper shit that should be exterminated!

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:48 AM

To get back on topic, can someone explain to those apologists who turn the statistic around, that it still doesn't sound too good?

I believe the actual figure was 13% for and 87% against. That worries the hell out of me - that only 87% of these people who live alongside us actually abhor the bombings? It should be ALL British Muslims who abhor the bombings - anybody who has any level of support for such atrocities should be rounded up and dealt with, imho.

13% in favour of the indiscriminate murder of innocent, non-military people is to me a horrendous statistic and I worry that some of you think it seems OK by you.

And burying your head in the sand by trying to pretend it isn't the religion which influences it is about as childish as ..... a really, really childish thing.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:42 AM

dinavan, you are implying that if race means nothing, that racism means nothing. In genetic terms, race has never meant anything as regards humans. In terms of people's responses to perceived differences, race and racism still are among the most potent destructive forces in the world. Ask anyone over 50 in Alabama, anyone over 20 in Bosnia, ask in Rwanda, South Africa, Bradford, Paris or any of a thousand other places.

So NOBODY is a member of a race other than the Human race, but of course people can have racist reactions to the alien they see in others. I can't tell a Serb from a Croat, or a Hutu from a Tutsi, but they want to and can. I dare say that the hypothetical visitor from Mars couldn't tell a Swede from a Bushman without careful study.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:14 AM

Carol, with all due respect, I think your dictionary is racist.

"...a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics (the English race)."

Race is not synonymous with culture and there are all social classes within a culture. There is absolutely no such thing as the English race. Just because you share common values with a certain class of people does not mean you are from the same culture or from the same race. In fact, science tells us there is no such thing as race.

Race is a word that means absolutely nothing, anymore. The only time that word is used is to separate and divide humanity. It is a negative, social construct.

I am surprised that you would use a definition that is so obviously wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:14 PM

When did Muslims become a race?

See the dictionary definition of "race" that I put in my 04 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM post.

"Race" is a tricky word. It's meaning is always subjective, even when it is being used to try to define biological differences between people. There really is no scientific way to define "race".

The dictionary is a pretty good authority on how words are used, and I have no problem with accepting it's definitions for the word race.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:18 PM

Isrealis aren't a race either. They're a nationality...with a very strong cultural identity.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:02 PM

But not the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:51 PM

Heh! Aren't the technicalities of language a wonderful thing, 282AR? You are of course, correct. Muslims are not a race, they are a cultural group with a common religious background. Same as Jews. We've had that discussion here many times in the case of the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:21 PM

>>Of course you woud guess that, because you have a racist idology against Muslims.<<

When did Muslims become a race?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:45 PM

Suicide tactics are NOT the exclusive property of any religion. They are the tactics of those who lack the necessary military power to successfully attack and damage a hated enemy by conventional means.

And that is why thousands of Buddhist and Shinto Japanese launched suicide attacks on the Allies in WWII...attacks which did far more damage than conventional air attacks could possibly have accomplished at that point in the war.

Suicide attacks are not a product of religion, they are a product of bitterness and sheer desperation in the face of a far better armed opponent.

Israelis would launch suicide attacks too...if the shoe was on the other foot, and they were outgunned to the point where they could not possibly win on the conventional battlefield. Jews killed themselves en masse at Masada, when trapped by the Romans. Remember? They were the powerless ones then. They and the USA HAVE the power in that region now. It is those under the heel of that power who will launch suicide attacks, not the Israelis or the Americans...who don't NEED to.

It is the virtually powerless who launch suicide attacks. Period. Against the powerful. And so it has always been.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM

Do you have a breakdown of HOW MANY of those 50,000 Christians were driven out by Jews, and how many by Moslems?

I haven't seen a breakdown of the numbers, but according to the following, most of the Christian Palestinian who were made refugees as a result of the 1948 expulsion of Palestinians from their homes and villages ended up in the same camps as the Muslim Palestinians. In the case of those Palestinians, the expulsions were clearly the work of Zionists, and not Muslims.

"A majority of fifty-six percent of Palestinian Christians are found outside of their country. This situation of out-migration resulted from the exodus of 726,000 Palestinian refugees in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Fifty to sixty thousand Palestinian Christians, comprising 35 percent of all Christians in pre1948 mandatory Palestine, were among the refugees'. In 1996, these refugees and their descendants are spread over the entire Middle East but primarily in the sixty refugee camps dotting the topography of the West Bank (19 refugee camps); Gaza Strip (8 refugee camps); Jordan (10 refugee camps); Syria (10 refugee camps) and Lebanon (13 refugee camps)."

More on the religion of the Tamils...

"Ceylon became a British colony in 1796. But long before the British arrived, the country consisted of two separate cultures, each with its own language, religion, and customs. The majority is composed of Sinhalese, who live in the west, south, and center of the island. Their name means "of the lions," and they are primarily Buddhist.

Tamils (primarily Hindu) make up a smaller portion of the population, and have traditionally lived in the east and north. Many Tamils from India were relocated into Sinhalese areas by the British during the early 19th century, nearly doubling the number of Tamils on the island. They were employed as cheap laborers on the tea plantations. At the time of independence, there were about 4.6 million Sinhalese and 1.5 million Tamils."

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel_gallant_eisen200403030918.asp

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

My argument is against Islam as a set of ideals. CarolC, you are knitpicking. I clicked onto your link and it said nothing about the religion of the Tamils who carried out suicide bombings. My guess is that they are muslims.

Of course you woud guess that, because you have a racist idology against Muslims.

"Most Tamils are Hindus, but Islam and Christianity also have a long history in Tamil Nadu. According to popular legend, the last Chera king is said to have converted to Islam and travelled to Arabia to become a companion of Muhammad, and the mother of one of the early Pallava kings is believed to have been Christian. Native Tamil Christianity was entirely replaced by European Christianity during the 16th century, and most Tamil Christians today are either Catholic or Protestant. Jainism was at one time a major religious force in Tamil Nadu, but it declined substantially during the Pallava period, and there are now only a few thousand Tamil Jains."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_people

Islam doesn't have an ideology that embraces suicide bombings. Suicide bombings are against the religion of Islam, and there is absolutly nothing in the Quran that says anything at all about rewarding suicide bombers in the afterlife.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

Suicide bombers strike unexpectedly from the shadows. So do nameless, faceless posters on this forum...like the last one.

And both with the same intention: to assassinate someone who is most likely innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

And Arab doctrine has been the complete destruction of the state of Israel.

This has been the doctrine of some Arabs, but hardly all. The fact that you are not able to make distinctions between various people's whom you lump all together in one big group and tar with the same broad brush is proof that the racist propaganda of the US, the UK and various other countries has been successful on you as well.

And what has all of that got to do with the racist propaganda that started this thread?

An example of a Christian suicide bomber, please?

I'm still working on finding specific information. I have read reports of there having been Christian suicide bombers, but I have not yet found specific information about individuals.

However, the presence of the PFLP, a secular organization with Christian members (along with people of other religions, and of no religion), is certainly proof enough that even the suicide bombers in the Middle East are not motivated by Islamic ideology, but rather by political concerns. And that is relevant to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:14 PM

There's no point arguing with CarolC about suicide bombers. After all, they are her personal friends.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:17 PM

CarolC,

An example of a Christian suicide bomber, please?


"driven out of Ramallah by the moslems back in 1948."
"Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christiansï¿"

Do you have a breakdown of HOW MANY of those 50,000 Christians were driven out by Jews, and how many by Moslems?


"Yet Zionist doctrine held that Palestine was "a land without a people for a people without a land." "

And Arab doctrine has been the complete destruction of the state of Israel.

How does this help lead to a viable solution to the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:00 PM

Here's some more information about Christian Palestinians, in particular, the fact that many were driven out of their homes and lands by Zionists...

"At the time of the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, it is estimated that the Christians of Palestine numbered some 350,000. Almost 20 percent of the total population at the time, they constituted a vibrant and ancient community; their forbears had listened to St. Peter in Jerusalem as he preached at the first Pentecost. Yet Zionist doctrine held that Palestine was "a land without a people for a people without a land." Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christians�7 percent of the total number of refugees and 35 percent of the total number of Christians living in Palestine at the time.

In the process of "Judaizing" Palestine, numerous convents, hospices, seminaries, and churches were either destroyed or cleared of their Christian owners and custodians. In one of the most spectacular attacks on a Christian target, on May 17, 1948, the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate was shelled with about 100 mortar rounds�launched by Zionist forces from the already occupied monastery of the Benedictine Fathers on Mount Zion. The bombardment also damaged St. Jacob�s Convent, the Archangel�s Convent, and their appended churches, their two elementary and seminary schools, as well as their libraries, killing eight people and wounding 120."

http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/sabella.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-06-05-opcom_x.htmF

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine is a "secular, Marxist-Leninist, nationalist Palestinian organization", which was founded and headed (until the year 2000) by Dr. George Habash, a Palestinian, Greek Orthodox Christian.

The PFLP has claimed responsibility for numerous "terrorist attacks", including suicide bombings.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:47 PM

CarolC,

"This is entirely false. There have been Palestinians Christians who have committed suicide bombings."

Example, please?

The only Palestinian Christians I personnaly know were driven out of Ramallah by the moslems back in 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

No. You first. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM

Go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

How many Christians think that American soldiers are heroes? Probably more than 1 in 10. They are all fighter who died 'gloriously' for their country are they not? Why pick on Muslims when 90% do not support suicide bombers? Should I assume that all Christians support the bombing of Iraq?

This war is not about Christians and Muslims. This war is about politically domination of another country through military force.

How would Christians in America feel if Iraq invaded America because Bush was a bad man who tortured and killed? I think you might find a few fanatics willing to strap on a bomb to oppose the occupation. Although I despise Bush, I might be willing to sacrifice myself for the sake of my country. What about you?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,urban northerner
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:31 PM

forget polls and news propaganda. those of us who live cheek by jowl with muslim communities have known the score for years.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:09 PM

Just goes to show that this is a war we cannot win.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

Heaven: No TV. No fast food. No advertising. Good weather and lots of fresh fruit to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

Heaven? Heaven??

Describe it.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Grab
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

You never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up on a bus.

However you get Christians perpetrating plenty of atrocities in Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Northern Ireland, etc, etc within the last 20-30 years.

Also note that you don't get Palestinian Muslims taking over Jewish-owned land at gunpoint and building fortified settlements there.

Islam is an agressive and expansionist religion with a history soaked in blood, as we in London, Madrid, Israel, Philipines, etc. know only too well.

Compare to Christianity, which has *such* a history of love and tolerance behind it, right? Yugoslavia, Rwanda, etc, etc as above - never mind what fun we could have if we go back 60-70 years to the Nazis, or further back to what they got up to during the Middle Ages until the Enlightenment put a serious cap on what the church could get away with. And as for "expansionist" - what do you think the multi-million-dollar recruiting trips by fundamentalist preachers to places like Eastern Europe are for? Or by all previous Christian missionaries?

And then we get onto treatment of other minorities - murder of doctors in clinics that carry out abortions, murder of homosexuals, etc. These are all things which fundamentalist Christians are famous for.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think there's anything wrong with Christianity, or even with fundamentalist Christianity. But we can say is that anyone who thinks their brand of religion gives them carte blanche to kill everyone who disagrees with them is a right bastard. And all they're accomplishing by trying to defend the Gates of Heaven against the rest of the world is ensuring that they're not going to be getting in...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:00 PM

Paul Burke,

I have no argument with you on your last post. I am not here to defend american and british imperalism.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM

PE,could you also concentrate on bombing, and not on suicide. Then you'll get a clearer picture.

Thousands of American, and dozens of British citizens have been killed or injured by bombs in New York and London.

Even before the Iraq war (which resulted from those bombings, even though Iraq was an irrelevancy), thousands of Iraqi civilians had been killed and injured as a result of British and American bombing, which had proceeded continuously for ten years. Many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians were harmed by British and American inspired sanctions.

To reiterate: you're no less dead if the bomber is in an aeroplane.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:46 PM

I guess I'd title the thread "Only 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs," but I don't really have a problem with Penguin Egg's title. But since we apparently have 90 percent that disagree with terrorism, it seems to me that means we have to stop making rash generalizations about Musilims, and we have to start treating them with the respect due to fellow human beings.
Maybe we need to have peace and respect and tolerance as our uppermost priorities. Maybe victory is not an option for either side, and we should start looking for other solutions. Is that subversive for me to say that?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

My argument is against Islam as a set of ideals. CarolC, you are knitpicking. I clicked onto your link and it said nothing about the religion of the Tamils who carried out suicide bombings. My guess is that they are muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM

Do you have any supporting 'documentation' for Christian Palestinians being suicide bombers?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:26 PM

Race can mean biological factors, and it can mean sociological factors, according to the definition I provided. Religion falls under the umbrella of sociological factors, so it is covered in the definition I provided.

The Tamil Tigers are made up of people of several religions as well as people who are secular and atheistic. The Tamil Tigers have been using suicide bombing as a strategy for decades...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/ltte.htm

And as I said before, there have been Christians who have committed suicide bombings in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:23 PM

I think suicide is normally considered a sin in the Muslim religion too. After all, like Christianity, the Muslim religion is based on rules of conduct written in the Old Testament (+ the life and teachings of Mohammed). The same basic moral codes were originally laid down for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...in the Old Testament...by the same group of prophets. They all consider suicide a sin.

The fact that some Muslims have rationalized themselves around that somehow means just this: they're just as prone to rationalism and hypocrisy as the rest of us are! ;-)

They're just as able to reinterpret their own holy books as the rest of us are.

Nothing unusual about that.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:06 PM

Again, due to me feeble-mindedness, I forgot to mention my name.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

CarolC, Islam contains many races, including those of the English race. Your definition did not mention religion, so I still do not understand why you think that this is about race and not about a body of ideas which I happen to dislike, in the same way I dislike christianity, communisim, and fascism. My feeble-mindedness is something that I have leant to live with.

I would like to know where you got your information that suicide bombers are not necessarily Muslims? You may be right, but I don't think you are. Islam has a long (and bloody) history of dying for your religion of which the suicide bombers would be the latest chapter for that. Christians would not do it because they believe that suicide is a sin. However, I do agree with you that desperation is the main determination, but it is Islam that gives it justification. That is why I do not like Islam.

I feel that I should say that I believe that most Muslims do not support terrorism and that the suicide bombers are an aberation. But 10% is a large minority. It has me worried.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

If you want to see a well controlled and orchestrated media, Dave, live in the USA for a year or two and watch their mainstream TV and read their mainstream papers. Immerse yourself in the collective fantasy for a bit.

A bit like Germany in the late 30's, to my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM

Thanks, Carol, much appreciated. I guess they just don't get the publicity that the Palestinian Moslems get. Couldn't be anything to do with our wonderful free press could it? :-0

Cheers

DtG