BS: The term Afro American?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:23 PM

McGrath, about the six syllable labels you mentioned. They are not what I would call "common parlance." Yes, if A and B are talking, and one is an Episcopalian, then the word will be used. But I just had a chat with an Episcopalian friend about her church, and the E word never came up at all.

Ride the bus, walk the aisles of a supermarket, sit in a restaurant and listen to people, and you will hear very few five or six syllable words. I'm sure that even four syllables are rare.

Gotta run - it's time to wave the guac.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:14 PM

I'm tired of all this "race" stuff. It's mostly a topic that keeps journalists dithering and gives some people (mostly young and male) an excuse to fight. It's also great for marketing.

Take a look at this family.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html%3Fin%5Farticle%5Fid=377839%26in%5Fpage%5Fid=1770

(Sorry, my computer doesn't make blue clickies.)


Aren't the kids cute? They are twins. Are they different races? Should one listen to rap while the other plays Bach? Should they have different accents? Associate with different crowds?

Is race real?

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

Well, it seems to me...that if a "wallah" is a person employed in a certain capacity or connected with a certain activity, then a "fuckwallah"...never kind, forget I spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:27 PM

I remember 'wallah' in its Anglo-Indian sense from literature on 19th c. India.
In the UK, now it seems to mean a person employed in a certain capacity or connected with a certain activity. In urban India it seems to apply to the lower rungs of employment- I could be wrong- .
From this I would guess that a 'fuckwallah' would be the 'lowest man on the totem pole,' but the word doesn't seem to have come to America.

McGrath, could you please add a bit of explanation?
-------------------
Sorry to see that the 'reality' show has caught on in the UK. Horrible things!
Of course, over here we have no idea what the fuss in the UK was about since we haven't seen the show.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:20 PM

Don't worry Shambles - she'll end up all rehabilitated with the tabloids and financially well-off. That's how this branch of show busniness works.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:10 PM

Someone (I think it may have been Lawrence Block), suggeted that ethnic designations acqure more syllables as soon as the previous designation becomes widely used by racial derogators. 'African-American" (7 syllables) is clumsy enough so that rednecks won;t be apt to use it; if it is picked up, a longer and less-wieldy name will appea.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

Is Fuckwallah the name for pink uncooked chicken?

Fuckarada was the word I heard used.

As like all the BB references - they have to be seen in context.

Such comments as these used in the heat of a personal spat are certainly unwise in such a crazy climate as we currently find ourselves in.

One where the use of terms like 'white trash' and 'mentally sub-normal' are not challenged but anything that can be stretched to being a racially motivated insult to an entire race of people is eagerly siezed on.

But as for these edited references really being seen as racist with the benefit of hindsight and taken out of context by many of those who did not watch the show -this is being selective, over-sensitive and irresponsible.

For these are very serious charges when all that was taking place by all parties was what in any other climate would been seen as silly bitching.

Those of us who have never been guilty of doing something unwise at some point in their lives - can cast the first stone.....

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:02 AM

To pay the recent Big Brother more attention than it deserves, "Fuckwallah" is presumably one of those innocuous expressions, and it is quite monstrous that anyone acually suggested it was racist and objected to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:39 AM

The notion that one drop of some kind of blood or other makes one categorizable as part of that group really could put an end to this whole silly run-around.

Like you, I am descended from people like Lucy or Little Lucy from the central African plains. Like the Sioux, the Cheyenne, the Mohican and the Algonquin, ancestors of mine walked the land bridge across the Bering Strait.

And I am sure that I have common ancestors with every Japanese, Chinese, Phillipine and Indonesian human alive today. It just depends on where you want to look.

Being, therefore, part of every ethnic group in the species, I am delighted to report that, after due consideration, I can conclude that there is no "they" there.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

But the intention to insult with racial or ethnic terminology is usually obvious.

Then perhaps we need to be more careful and use the word racist only when the intention is clearly that obvious?

But is it always so obvious and clear cut?

If I were call someone the dreaded N word this may be thought an obvious intent to insult them with racial terminology - if one black person calls another this word or refers to himself as this - it is perhaps not so easy?

And in the recent celeb Big Brother TV show, when forming a spoof Jackson 5 tribute band - Jermaine Jackson told the Bollywood actress she need to blacken up her voice..........

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:39 AM

If I was decribing someone I'd do so in terms of their appearance and their behaviour, and try to get that as accurate as possible, not in terms of my guesses about their ethnic group or whatever, which might be wildly wrong.

Remember the "surveiilance officer" in the case of Jean Paul Menenzes, the youing man shot dead by London Police while he was being held down in his seat on the Tube after being captured, and how he identified the Brazilian as an Arab on the basis that he had "Mongolian eyes".

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST, palefaced, uncapitalized
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:19 AM

Kidding with racial terms can be ambiguous or misunderstood, or it can be an attempt to veil an insult. Irony can be missed in such as Randy Newman's "Rednecks." Usage of no term can be accurately said to be insulting every time it is used. But the intention to insult with racial or ethnic terminology is usually obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:26 AM

And anyone who finds themselves using racist insults has to recognise that this means that at some level within them they are racist - and this can be very unsettling to recognise.

I trust that you would include in this those who would address such insults to themselves and others of their racial grouping?

This issue has moved on and become far too complex for such simplistic judgements.

For it is not the use words of the words themselves that are the issue but the context, intent and who it is that is using them.

Thus the same word - 'black' can quite innocently describe a colour, intentionally denigrate an entire racial grouping and be used proudly, for the very opposite reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:27 AM

It is not racist to call me American but I prefer to be called Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:50 PM

Us.

Them.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:55 PM

Ah, but you aren't a group, Shambles.

It can be overlooked that all groups are comprised of a number of people who are all firstly - me.

Often individuals use groups to hide from their individual responsibilty. And often use groups to gang up upon others.

Political correctness is now a bit like the offside rule in football has become. Niether were intended to be used as an offensive weapon by those it was designed to protect.

When it is so used - it is time for it to be addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST, palefaced, uncapitalized
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:39 PM

I find shortcomings in all the racial terms and some of the ethnic ones, but I still at times find myself answering questions that should not be asked.

If I'm asked by a law enforcement officer to describe someone I believe to be a danger to someone, I'm likely to answer questions as to the description of the suspect, including racial/ethnic ones; I've done it.

If I have a significant stake in something I'm applying for, such as medical aid, I'm likely to anwer the race question; I've done that. I might rationalize by thinking, If I don't check a box, some clerk will have to, or possibly get written up.

Doing what I don't believe in does not leave me feeling sufficiently strong.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM

Ah, but you aren't a group, Shambles.

There's Scots and Swedes and Greens.

And there's folk, of course. Though perhaps that might go to reinforce what Cluin said there.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:08 PM

Depending on who says it. And how.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:33 PM

Me

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:09 PM

Men...

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:22 PM

It is kind of interesting how the fewer syllables there are in a word which refers to any group of people, the more offensive that word is judged to be.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

Uglo-Americans

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM

John Hardy, You promised to never post my picture!

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM

Really, Greg F.? And from what source did you find this wee gem of wisdom?

Yes, really Douggie-boy.

Your ignorance of this particular point hardly surprises me, as your ignorance is pretty much universal. Not source, but sources.Lots of 'em.

But I'm not about to do your work or spoon feed you- take fifteen minutes and do a web search on state anti-miscegenation laws or racial intermarriage laws in the Land Of The Free, or GOD FORBID! read a book or two on Black history or the history of the Civil Rights movement and you'll easily find more on topic than you probably want to know.

Or, stay ignorant & keep on with the puerile comments you seem to think are amusing. Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,Don Last
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:25 AM

The term afro american should not apply when the individual has cycled through more than 2 nations or is distanced from Africa by more than 2 generations.

Basicly it is a transitory term that is part of the evolution of the word Negro that has gone through many permutations, some fine and some despicable. Negro, Shwarta, black, colored, nigra, nigger, afro american etc

I prefer to go with human being.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:01 AM

Six syllable labels? No problem.

Fundamentalists.

Episcopalians.

Jehovah's Witnesses - well I know that's two words but then so are the others which have been in discussion.

Presbyterians - well that only five. Make it "strict Presbyterians".

Or "Devout Roman Catholics".

Or "Yellow Dog Democrats"

"Traditional Musicians"

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

I just don't think that English speakers are ever going to put a word with six syllables (Afro-American)into everyday parlance. The tendency to use short words (or acronyms) is simply too powerful.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:09 AM

Gosh, Jenny...you look fine, but we don't appreciate plug-in instruments all that much.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:39 AM

Gee, JennyO, I hope the Ducks come that year, too. You'd have instant friends! (Course that's what happens at the Getaway, anyway, but the really special ones have beaks. )

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:30 AM

National Public Radio had a wonderful news article several months ago about a Chinese immigrant who became a missionary in some Protestant faith and married into an American family of Scots origin. He and his wife were very blessed and now there are absolutely huge family reunions which run the gamut of shades.

I kind of like the way George Bernard Shaw referred to Europeans as 'pink' which is more accurate than white. There was a very nice a cappella group out of Seattle called "The Amazing Pink Things".

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:41 PM

Really, Greg F.? And from what source did you find this wee gem of wisdom?

I don't recall any conversations when discussing individuals here (USofA) that anyone referred to anyone else as "Afro American," "African American," "Irish American", "Chinese American" or anything else. We are just Americans.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:54 PM

Um yes, of course. Well I have seen photos from the Getaway :-) I hope one day (maybe in 2008) to 'getaway' to it.

I think I'd fit right in!

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:42 AM

Jenny, that's just a typical Mudcat Gathering photo. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:32 AM

John Hardly - I bet you're waiting to see how long it takes before someone has a look at your link ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:43 AM

There's always been a tradition of people taking up insulting labels and trying to take the sting out of them by using them themselves. Sometimes that works, as with Quakers, but it's a tricky one to get away with, and more often than not it doesn't work.

And often enough people will try to use this tendency as a way of trying to claim that the use of these expressions by others isn't actually intended as insulting and felt as insulting.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:31 AM

There are a substantial number of folks in the southern U.S. that are proud of being "white trash" and wear the appellation as a badge of honor.

Nowt as queer as folk.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:13 AM

Klingo-Americans

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:05 AM

s&r is right of course about the situation at the time the Opies did their research.

Defining "ethnic minority population" as "New Commonwealth", as that paper did, is a rather strange definition, excluding significant ethnic minorities such as the Irish. And I'm pretty sure the Opies did take this into account where it was relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: s&r
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:20 AM

Azizi - at the time of the research undertaken by the Opies in the early fifties the non-white population of most of the UK was very small indeed. Their research is unlikely to have been affected by children from non-white cultures. I think today the research they did would have included ethnic data. For your interest I add a quote from "Race, Immigration and Community Relations in Contemporary London" a paper from the LSE.


"In 1951, the UK's ethnic minority population (which would not have been referred to in these terms) is estimated to have been less than 50,000 . During the 1950s and 1960s, there was a significant growth in immigration from the New Commonwealth. By 1961, the number of London residents born in the 'New Commonwealth' was 242,000, providing a broad approximation of the overall level of the 'ethnic minority' population. This number grew to 583,000 by 1971 and 945,000 by 1981. The 'non-white' population in 1991 was about 1.4 million, increasing to about 2 million in 2001."

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:55 AM

I do not see that Jermaine Jackson use of the term 'white trash' makes him a racist. As any comments must be seen in the context of the show and judged in that light.

But I also don't see the media or the show's makers challenging him over his comments as they have done to others for their's.

But he did bring his attitudes towards racial issues in with him - in the same way as did others.

I think it would be fair to say that these were American attitudes towards this issue and that he was very aware of being the only black man in the house.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 12:27 AM

a few things

1. Yes 'dark skinned' would be the easy term but they really didn't want to mention skin colour when describing the person, so dithered for ages trying to guess a country.

2. (For whoever asked about French terms to describe race) For white and black I tend to just hear noir and blanc. (It seems to be a bit more acceptable to talk about 'les noirs', 'les blancs' etc than in english, though maybe I was just talking to less up-to-date people. The one they really tip-toe around is people from North Africa. I think d'origine magrebine was the term normally used.

3. Some of the best times are when people are so comfortable with each other that they're able to use even quite pejorative terms jokingly. (I'm thinking of a japanese friend who refered to himslf as nippy. There were others. Vaguely analogously I remember a friend of my dad's used to call him a 'proddy bastard'.)

PS. Might have already been mentioned, but what about white Zimbabwians, South Africans etc...who have children in America.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:21 PM

The educational websites of the Univ. Virginia and Univ. North Carolina, xroads.virginia.edu and docsouth.unc.edu cover much about the South: Music (e. g. Fenner, Cabin and Plantation Songs, hymnals of the Civil War period) to current history.

The term 'white trash' in its current significance is discussed succinctly in "White Trash: The Construction of an American Scapegoat," at http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA97/price/open.htm.
White Trash
Even that article on working class whites is almost out of date. Are the white employees at Walmart the new white trash? Really not applicable, is it?

This term has gone through several stages of meaning since it first appeared in the early 19th c. One of its first uses, if not the first, was by household and craftsmen slaves in the South, to refer to the lowest stratum of whites (drunks, casually employed, etc.), and by black household slaves to refer to white servants (OED, quotes from the 1830s).

By the time of the publication and run-away popularity of the cookbook "White Trash Cooking," by E. M. Mickler, 1985, the term was being applied to bikers and the like and was losing its target and singular meaning.
(Now that it is used in England, it is lost to America).

Migrant white labor has been replaced with immigrant labor or machinery, the mill workers have been fired and moved north or west when Asian mills took over and the mills closed, with compulsory education the kids now are selling cars or real estate and at worst are working at Walmart. That free-form family down the bayou that rents leaky boats to fishermen might be shiftless to some and white trash to a few but most recognize them as 'free souls.'

Where are the people of Steinbeck and Guthrie? Gone, targets no longer.
---------------------------

RED EYE GRAVY
After cooking the breakfast meat (bacon, ham or sausage), remove it from the iron skillet and put it aside. To the drippins, pour 1/3 cup of strong coffee and stir while on the fire. Pour over hot grits or sop up with hot biscuits.
White Trash Cooking, p. 48.
(Available at amazon.com, in its umpteenth edition, but now accompanied by No. 2, More, and a Treasury, of White Trash Cooking. The soul food of Southern whites)

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:14 PM

In New Mexico, people with beige skintone who have no Hispanic ancestry are called "Anglos." Drives my Scots, Irish, German, French, etc. friends nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:07 PM

And anyone who finds themselves using racist insults has to recognise that this means that at some level within them they are racist - and this can be very unsettling to recognise.

No it does not - this only means that they are unwise to choose to be using words that racists use quite intentionally to denegrate others, on the grounds of race.

The use of such words - in the heat of the moment does not alone make anyone a rascist at any level.

This is not to excuse the use of such insults or to excuse any real offence caused by their use but perhaps to make an important distinction that is in danger of being lost.

Footballers call each (and referees) many insulting words like 'cunt' on a fairly regular basis.

Should they not find this insulting behavior equally unsettling?

Or does it only become unsettling when the insulting word 'cunt' is prefixed by a non-insulting word which describes a colour?

In the heat of the moment, any professional football player in our country would be safe to use the insulting word 'cunt' but would be unwise and open themselves up to charges of racism and risk being kicked out of their profession if they insulted anyone by calling them a black cunt.

Prejudice against anyone by reason of sex, class, sexual preference, mental health, physical appearance etc is equally as unacceptable as to do so on grounds of race.

Or is society now saying that racism is worse than these?

If it is - and these labels are to be placed on individuals by our media - then perhaps some agreement should first be reached about what is and is not to be judged as racist.

Our differences, racial, cultural whatever are of interest. Are we to pretend that we do not notice these differences. When for example a Londoner notices these differences and imitates someone speaking with Welsh accent or can't remember or pronounce their name very well we do not jump to lablel them racists.

That is pretty much what we and our media have done to the three girls on this show.

Women like Myra Hyndley and Rosie West who have been accused, tried and convicted in court of murdering children seem to receive a better press than these three girls.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM

Canadian tourists have the same experience with people thinking they are from the States, and so do New Zealanders who are always taken as being Australians.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:29 PM

Possibly not, John. From what my SIL has said, it is a common mistake and most Antiguans are irritated by it, but I don't think they hold out much hope of folks learning differently.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:17 PM

Kat, would most folks who have little contact with Caribbean people know the difference (except for the French speaking islands)? I have become somewhat adept at distinguishing among some Spanish accents from Latin America--especially I can pick out Argentines and Chileans often.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:12 PM

People who gang up and bully other people are acting in a vile way, and do not need to be vilified. That applies whether their prime motive is "race" or anything else. And anyone who finds themselves using racist insults has to recognise that this means that at some level within them they are racist - and this can be very unsettling to recognise.
......................

"White trash" is a peculiarly nasty expression, as is its companion "trailer trash" - they are terms that have never caught on in the UK, and I hope they never will. My impression from TV is that in their home, the USA, these are "equal opportunities" insults. That doesn't make them anyn less distasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: The term Afro American?
From: GUEST, palefaced, uncapitalized
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM

In one's own writing one can be a style manual to oneself. Nonetheless, always capitalizing "white" and "black," when used as racial terms, is not a stylistic norm. Doing so on a large scale could make it seem that the terms have a formal, permanent acceptance that many, including many in the sciences, do not grant them.

If I were to begin always capitalizing "white," I might appear to some to be a white supremacist.

I do not presume that every agency or firm that asks for racial or ethnic self-identification is predisposed to discriminate. But when they all claim that they do not discriminate, yet still ask for the self-identification, what is one to think they're doing with the information?