BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:03 PM

Someone in this thread asked me why the Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan. They did not ask me why some Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan. When someone else in this thread used the term "the Jews", that person was severely castigated by several people because they maintain that saying "the" in front of "Jews" means that the person saying it is referring to all Jews.

When someone says "the" in front of "Palestinians", that person's words indicate that the entire group is included in the comment.

However, I have had interactions with many, many people who believe that the Palestinians originally came from Jordan and emigrated to what is now Israel and the Palestinian areas because they were kicked out of Jordan. There are many, many people who believe that there were no Palestinians in what is now Israel and the occupied Palestinian areas before the European Jews showed up.

If one is really concerned with historical accuracy, one would make an effort to correct these beliefs when they are encountered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:51 PM

The Palestine Mandate which included what is now Jordan was a completely artificial creation set up in the horsetrading around the Treaty of Versailles. To talk of it as if it had some kind of historical unity is absurd.

The area to the East of the Jordan had never been linked administatively with the area to the West, which under the Turks was made up in 1914 of three separate "sanjaks". See the map on this site - a Zionist site, as it happens, to avoid arguments about this being an anti-Zionist distortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

I am not trying to trip you up, CarolC, I am trying to get you to say what you mean, and to be as historically accurate as possible. I know that doesn't count for much to most folks in this era of 24/7 news dished up in 30 second sound bites, and pictures with no context. But it matters to some of us.

While I know I'll never change your position, what you believe, you believe, I will comment on inaccuracy when I see it.

BTW, who promotes the idea that Palestinians 'come' from Jordan? What I read is that Jordan was carved off of Palestine...which is why some think that Jordan could be the Palestinian homeland. I know that may not seem different from what you wrote, but it is truly 180 degrees different.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

Point of correction - Tzipi Livni's parents were active not in the Stern Gang but in the larger group Irgun - which was also classified as a terrorist organisation by the British and the American governments at the time, in the light of actions such as the blowing up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 people were killed. (Beats anything Hamas has ever managed to do in that line...)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM

Following today's clashes on the Gaza border the odious Israeli foreign minister Livni,regarded by many as a war criminal, has declared that Israel"will no longer show any restraint" .

If the events of the past few weeks amount to some form of restraint what with the mass killing of civilians in houses, the slaughter of hundreds of children and the maiming of thousands then Livni who comes from a family of zionist Stern gang terrorists is giving warning of more carnage to be delivered by the Israeli military.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

I'm sure this game of trying to trip me up is very amusing, but my point was that none of the Palestinians and Arab Israelis in the areas I listed are indigenous to what is now Jordan, which was the entire point that I was trying to make. And yes, many people do try to promote the idea that they came originally from Jordan, as I think the person whose points I was responding to may have been doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

"The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are indigenous to those areas as well as to what is now Israel. The people now known as Arab Israelis are indigenous to what is now Israel. That is 100% correct."
Yes! Finally! That is not what you wrote earlier.
And, to my knowledge, nobody here has denied it.

It's like pulling teeth. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:05 PM

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are indigenous to those areas as well as to what is now Israel. The people now known as Arab Israelis are indigenous to what is now Israel. That is 100% correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and in Israel, the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

Well now, at least, your statement is 25% correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Yes, that is correct. I forgot to specify Israel in my statement. I will rephrase...

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and in Israel, the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

"Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan."

They are?! I thought Israeli Arabs were those who stayed inside Israel during and after the 1948 war and are Israel citizens. Those in the West Bank, etc. consider themselves, and are "Palestinian." Those in Jordan at that time were already Jordanian, and some who entered Jordan after 1948 have been given Jordanian citizenship...which is more than any Jew has there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

By the way, I think the only game that is being played is the one in which people try to pretend that Israeli Jews can maintain a permanent majority without practicing ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Linguistic gymnastics aside, the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and the people now known as "Arab Israelis" are indigenous to those areas, and not Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Sparsely populated or not Trans-Jordanians were Palestinian at the formation of that country. The outsiders were the rulers. The reason for internal peace since the '70s is that Jordan is an ethnically homogeneous country, and religiously nearly so.

"..a US Department of State International Religious Freedom Report 2006 on Jordan states that: "The Government recognizes Judaism as a religion; however there are reportedly no Jordanian citizens who are Jewish..." This is because Jews are denied 'citizenship' in Jordan, as opposed to Arabs, Muslim and Christan, who remained in Israel.

As to your other comments in your last post to me, you may believe what you will, and define as you will, but I through with playing that game.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

I have to say, though, from watching that video, it looks to me like Tzipi Livni is trying to get Netanyahu elected instead of herself. Instead of saying she would forcibly remove the settlers from the West Bank, she should be saying that they can stay there if they want, but if they do, they will be living there as Palestinians under the authority of the Palestinian state, and that the settlements would no longer be subsidized by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

60 Minutes on the death of the two state solution (thank you 60 minutes!)...

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4752349n

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

The area that is now Jordan was very sparsely populated prior to the establishment of the Hashemite kingdom there. The Palestinian people are an indigenous people in the area that is now Israel and the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Palestinians in Jordan don't maintain their majority through ethnic cleansing of the people in Jordan who are not of Palestinian origin. In order for Israel to maintain a permanent Jewish majority, it is necessary for it to practice ethnic cleansing and possibly even genocide. That is the difference. Maintaining a Jewish majority through ethnic cleansing and/or genocide is not sustainable, and leads to a permanent state of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

If that is what you meant, you are still historically wrong. Until 1921 what is now Jordan was a part of Palestine, which was given to the Hashimis as Trans-Jordan.

The Hashimites, who came from outside Jordan, became rulers of a Palestinian peoples. So it is not entirely incorrect to think of Jordan as a Palestinian homeland. The difference, of course, is that those Palestinians who lived in Trans-Jordan in 1921 became Jordanian and their brothers, sisters and cousins remained in the remnant of Palestine.

The majority of those kicked out of Jordan in the '70s were those who crossed over from the West Bank when it was under Jordanian control.

If Jordan, an overwhelmingly Palestine population can exist, so too should an Israel be allowed to exist as an overwhelmingly Jewish country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM

Some Palestinians fled to Jordan during the Nakba, but they don't come from there originally, which, I think, is what was being suggested when the question was asked about why they were kicked out of that country. There is a persistent propaganda myth still circulating that the Palestinians come originally from Jordan, and only arrived in Israel because they were kicked out of Jordan. That is what I was addressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM

Also, are you implying that sometimes the innocent are killed along with the guilty by a third party? Seems to me that's what happened recently in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM

If true, still a distinction without a difference, McGrath. The operation was instigated by Fatah (Black September)...the guilt isa theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

Maybe it's an insignificant point but "during the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich killed 11 Israeli athletes" probably misstates what actually happened. There was a badly botched "rescue attempt" by the German police in which the hostage athletes were killed, at least some of them by the police fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:26 PM

The Website SOCIALIST UNITY carries an article with photographs about some 15 military and political Israeli leaders ,at varying levels of seniority, who have been named as being involved in war crimes in Gaza.
The article includes short biographies of these leaders .Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM

It has been noted on the 'Cat that Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. That is only partially true. There are Palestinians in Jordan, but Palestine militants, including Y. Arafat were expelled.

The Black September Movement was formed as a direct result of Arafat was expelled from Jordan, and Palestinians were expelled and/or left on their own following attacks by the Jordanian army. This was from sovereign Jordan proper, not from the West Bank area which Jordan no longer controlled

Black September Movement (noun)
A former Palestinian terrorist organization (now merged with Fatah Revolutionary Council) that assassinated the Prime Minister of Jordan and during the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich killed 11 Israeli athletes.
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton Univerty.

From various Wikipedia articles:

"In the late 1960s, the Fatah faction of the PLO had set up a state within a state, inside Jordan. Increasing numbers of armed, uniformed Palestinians set up checkpoints, collected taxes, and refused to travel with Jordanian license plates on their cars. In the southern zone, bordering on Israel, they demanded and seized autonomous control, rejecting the king's authority in Jordan. The aligned Palestinian organizations carried out a series of deadly attacks against Israel, from Jordanian territory. Guerrilla raids against Israel, were mounted from bases in the West Bank, Lebanon and Jordan. King Hussein who became increasingly devoted to the promotion of peace in the region, made various peaceful attempts to re-establish his authority in Jordan, attempting a seven-point agreement with the PLO in November of 1968, along with fostering peace between Israel and Egypt."

"The Jordanian army began plans to expel the Fedayeen and PLO. On the morning of September 16, [1970] Hussein declared martial law. On September 17, the military attack began. Patton tanks from the 60th armored brigade, accompanied by armored vehicles, entered Amman from all sides, and attacked the headquarters of the Palestinian organizations."

"The number of casualties in what resembled a civil war is estimated at tens of thousands. Though Palestinian civillians[sic] were killed in far greater numbers, both sides were involved in the intentional targeting of civilians. It was a turning point for Jordanian identity, as the kingdom embarked on the program of "Jordanization" of the society that relegated Palestinians to "outsider" status."

"Toward the end of March, after a Palestinian arms warehouse was discovered in Irbid, [a city in northern Jordan cotrolled by Palestinians] the Jordanian army placed a curfew on the city, arrested some of the Palestinian activists, and expelled others. The takeover of Irbid was completed at the beginning of April. Afterward, many senior members of the Palestinian organizations, who were aware of their weakness, began to withdraw from Amman as well."

Lebanon became home to more than 110,000 Palestinian refugees from their homes in present day Israel. The large influx of Palestinians from Jordan after "Black September" caused an imbalance within Lebanese society and democratic institutions.[1][2] By 1975, they numbered more than 300,000, effectively creating an unofficial state-within-a-state in Southern Lebanon. The PLO became a powerful force and played an important role in the Lebanese Civil War."

"Arafat set about building a "state-within-the-state" [As they had tried to do in Jordan, see above] in southern Lebanon, to create a secure base area for the PLO, headquartered in the Bekaa Valley and West Beirut. Gradually the Lebanese authorities were being pushed into irrelevancy."

"Ma'an (Arabic) reports that aArafat[sic] set about building a "state-within-the-state" in southern Lebanon, to create a secure base area for the PLO, headquartered in the Bekaa Valley and West Beirut. Gradually the Lebanese authorities were being pushed into irrelevancy. A series of articles being authored by longtime Arafat aide Marwan Kanafani in Egypt's Al Ahram will say that it was Yasir Arafat himself who created the Black September organization in 1970."

There may be some redundancy in the above, but I don't want anybody to think I am manipulating meaning by not using complete sentences, or merging sentences, thereby putting my own spin on it. My comments for clarification are in [].

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:44 AM

The UN is now trying to declare that the basic right to food is a "Human Right". Hummm

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM

Arguing about the reasons this situation has come about is interesting enough. But the central point, regardless of those reasons, is that, if sufficient food is not allowed to get into a territory that cannot produce this food, and people within that territory are unable to leave, this will mean people dying in large numbers.

Maintaining a blockade that prevents food getting in, and prevents people getting out, would be an act of genocide. And that does at present appear to be the policy adopted by Israel, and colluded in by other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

Here's the Gaza aid appeal video that the BBC refused to air...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/video/2009/jan/26/dec-gaza-appeal

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:55 AM

The reviews on the book's page in Amazon give some idea of what's in the book...

http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Zionism-John-Rose/dp/0745320554

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:09 AM

THE MYTHS OF ZIONISM
An excellent book about zionism is by the British, Jewish and socialist writer John Rose.

His "The Myths of Zionism " [Pluto Press 2004 ] does a good job in arguing that zionism is held together by a series of myths. A package of false notions which undermines its claims on the Jewish religion and Jewish history and its justification for the   aggressive political posturing in the land of Palestine.

The book is dedicated to the late Palestinian Jew, Tony Cliff [born in 1917 as Ygael Gluckstein ], who became a revolutionary socialist and a firm supporter of a free Palestine.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:23 AM

No, that's not true. The Jews from that area are essentially the same people as the non-Jews from that area. They are the most closely related genetically to each other than to any other peoples in the world. The only real difference between the Jewish Palestinians (who now call themselves Israelis), and the Christian and Muslim (and secular) Palestinians, is that at some point in their families' history, some of them became Jews, some of them became Christians, and some of them became Muslims (and some became secular). But they all come from essentially the same genetic stock who have been in that area for thousands of years.

The European Jews in Israel, on the other hand, while their ancestors did live in that region centuries ago, they did live in other parts of the world for many centuries prior to returning to the Middle East. So while the indigenous Jewish Palestinians have an uninterrupted history in that region, the European Jews do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 02:08 AM

. . . and the Jews have been there for thousands more.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:07 AM

I should correct this one...

"The Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. They have been living in the area that is now Israel and the Palestinian occupied areas for more than a thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 01:06 AM

I'm not allowed to copy/paste from other people's posts in my posts, so I'll just have to answer the questions and hopefully it will not be too difficult to figure out which questions I am answering with which comment.

Why shouldn't they have weapons? Everyone has a right to defend him or herself. Israel has been bombing and shooting the Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank) since before Hamas even existed. There is no reason why the Palestinians should be the only ones who are entirely defenseless.

If Israel is going to destroy the tunnels, they have an obligation under international law to allow food to enter Gaza through other means. They are not doing this.

Yes, there was a problem before Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel. That's part of the reason Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel.

As I said before, they can only bring so much food into Gaza through the tunnels. They don't have to bring in all that much material in order to have enough weapons to do what they have been doing. But bringing enough food into Gaza to feed almost a million and a half people every day through the tunnels is not feasible.

Israel destroyed Gaza's economy by maintaining a stranglehold on Gaza's borders, air space, and coastline. People can't even fish any more because Israel won't allow fishing boats to go where the fish are.

The Palestinians were not kicked out of Jordan. They have been living in the area that is now Israel for more than a thousand years. Jordan has no beef with Israel because that country conspired with Israel to carve up the land that was supposed to go to the Palestinians and divide it with Israel. And this is what happened.

Israel can't wreck Jordan's economy because Jordan is a sovereign state with control of its own borders, unlike Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group"

Sounds like this fellow in this official Hamas video Published on Hamas website in February 2006:

Adham Ahmad Hujyla Abu Jandal
Prepared before Suicide attack on December 7, 2004

watch video

    "My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 11:52 PM

"so it's not at all correct to say that they've only been bringing in weapons."
Why bring in any weapons? Especially it people are starving?

"the Israeli military has destroyed most of the tunnels"
Maybe because they are being used to smuggle weapons. Another ploy by Hamas to put civilians at risk for their political purposes.

"But almost a million and a half people need a tremendous amount of food every day"
Was there a problem before Hamas started lobbing missles into Israel?

"not able to buy necessities with money they have been able to earn through their own economy"
How come they can get weapons but not food?

They destroy their own economy.

Why were the Palestinians kicked out of Jordan? How come Jordan has no beef with Israel?

There are people in Jordan involved in manufacturing things for Companies in Israel. Why doesn't Israel wreck Jordan's economy if that ie their purpose?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:37 PM

And as the original poster I would like to claim the 800

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM

If I could just interfere for a moment..............

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:30 PM

(""That's really interesting, BBruce.

So Israeli soldiers deliberately fired on, and killed, unarmed men in civilian clothing, unidentifiable as Hamas supporters, let alone as Hamas fighters, and then, somehow were able to identify the political allegiance of the corpses.""

You've gone strangely silent , Bearded Bruce.

No comment on the above?

No convenient cut'n paste to show that all these civilians committed suicide by running in front of Israli firearms practice.

Or can we assume that there is SOME truth in the statement that Israelis WERE indiscriminately shooting civilians, and will, if the truce is not maintained, probably do the same again?)


How very strange! The above was posted in answer to a post from bearded Bruce, who, prior to this, was the forum's most vociferous supporter of Israel's actions.

Not only did Bruce decide not to respond. He disappeared from this thread entirely when faced with the fact that he had totally destroyed his own argument.

Nobody else has bothered to take up the point, so I think it is worth repeating.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM

If Hamas is your the enemy why has so many civilians, children & women died? A wage is waged against an opposing army not a population of innocents like the one waged on the Ghetto's of Warsaw! If Cauban terrorist (not the Cauban military) fired rockets at the US we would be wrong to rain destruction on the civilians of Cuba. Get your head straight. Hamas was voted in because they stood against Israeli aggression! Israel is to blame for the popularity of Hamas, in the same way that Castro was the result of Batista & his support from the US.

Yes, I call Hamas a criminal but not near the degree of the nation of Israel. Hamas is no more a wing of arm of a government than the IRA or the JDL. To try & say Israel is at war with Hamas is insane. Hamas is not an army of any nation, they are a group of extremist fighting a terrorist, rouge nation.

"Like they could have just went in there and gathered up all the rocket launcher guys and left?"

Israel didn't try to do anything but roll in guns blazing, blasting & bulldozing whatever they encountered. Hospitals, schools, shelters, home, destroying communications, food & water supplies, sanitary facilities & killing civilians in need of shelter & safety, just as the Germans did as they rolled through Poland!
Israel has kept Gaza a Ghetto & we are seeing the a repeat of the reign of hell.

You don't have to tell me war is shit & you don't have to tell me war Terrible things happen in war. War is crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

You call it criminal activity when Hamas continually fired rockets into Israel? I think if a country did that to the United States, no doubt you would have a different way to describe that kind of thing.

In fact the UK was continually bombed (including rockets fired at Downing St.) over a long period.

We didn't go out and bomb Belfast or Dublin into smithereens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Barry's quote:"This is not a war, it is an invasion of a territory populated by civilians. When criminal activity occurs within a district one does not kill anyone living within that district, one finds another workable solution.When a hostage situation takes place you do not shoot everyone, you do what's needed to get the innocent out of the situation without killing them & then try to aprehend the criminals"

I guess you know first hand what the Israeli army faced there and what occurred? I think not. Like they could have just went in there and gathered up all the rocket launcher guys and left? A piece of cake. And as if they have a criminal justice system to deal with their own militants? I've heard about Hamas's justice system - ask some Fatah members about that.

Hamas is Israel's enemy and all this is a war!This is not petty criminal stuff. You call it criminal activity when Hamas continually fired rockets into Israel? I think if a country did that to the United States, no doubt you would have a different way to describe that kind of thing.   Terrible things happen in war. War is crap. Hamas's agenda is all about war - nowhere is there an expression of a possible peace process towards Israel's existence. Gazans voted them in power and it this is what has come out of it. Hopefully one day everyone will vote for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Barry at the library
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

Arnie, the people of Gaza are not the enemy!

This is not a war, it is an invasion of a territory populated by civilians. When criminal activity occurs within a district one does not kill anyone living within that district, one finds another workable solution.

When a hostage situation takes place you do not shoot everyone, you do what's needed to get the innocent out of the situation without killing them & then try to aprehend the criminals

Drop leaflets & then close the borders & then bomb the shelters????

When dealing with terrorism the governments waging the violence are in most cases a military arm fighting against a group that has excepted to go to the extreme because they feel that they've run out of all other options including surrender. It is the responsibility of those waging war to try to understand basis & nature of the causes that are at the root of terrorism. Like the doctor who only treats the symptoms the cure will never come about unless the root causes are addressed. The US, England, Israel & a great many other nations only want to treat the symptoms & don't care to treat the root problems, it is in their best interests, only! When a subjagated people resist oppression violently we call it terrorism, they call it resistance. Unless you completely oppress & totally control a people they will not be defeated. If those people are left any glimmer of hope they will not be shackled, they will die. We found this to be true with slavery, they will turn to a better afterlife. So Israel is either practing extermination or slavery, IMHO they are not interested in keeping slaves, because they would treat the people of Gaza worst then anmals, which they do but they would not kill them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

By the way, it should be noted that Hamas won the election in the West Bank as well as in Gaza. The reason Hamas is only in control in Gaza and not in the West Bank, is because Fatah was stronger in the West Bank, while Hamas is stronger in Gaza. When Fatah tried to stage its coup in all of the Palestinian areas, it only succeeded in the West Bank, but not in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

No, actually, the difference between the West Bank, and Gaza hasn't got anything to do with the kind of people found in each place, and has nothing to do with the religious affiliations or practices of the people in either place. The difference is because of the different strategies that Israel is implementing in the two places. The goal is and has always been to get rid of all of the non-Jewish indigenous people who still remain in the areas that Israel wants for itself. Gradual ethnic cleansing works in the West bank (for now), but it isn't really possible in Gaza which is a tiny strip of land already enclosed behind a wall.

In the West Bank, the areas that are available for Palestinians to live in are still much larger than in Gaza, their numbers are greater, and there are Jewish settlements scattered all around the West Bank with the remaining Palestinian areas looking like holes in Swiss cheese, making it hard to bomb indiscriminately, so just gradually wiping them out, as is being done in Gaza isn't feasable at this time. In the West Bank, the method being used for clearing out the Palestinians has more to do with making their lives impossible to continue to live there so that they will leave on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:21 PM

Carol, the big deal is Hamas was duly elected. It would be like if Democrats in the US were to rise up and destroy Republicans. (Many Republicans would like to commit genocide on Liberals.)

The thing to understand about Hamas in Gaza is that it represents poor and unlettered people there. Islamic extremism can only be lessened by education, not bombs.
In this way it is different from the West Bank which is a different tribe of Islamic Palestinians, perhaps more well-heeled but no less militant.

Arab Tribalism is the big problem in understanding Islam. Israel doesn't get this. They think of a monolithic boogey-man that wants to destroy Israel and that's extremist thinking.

Genocide was Hiroshima, Nagaski. Also contemporary Iraq. The so-called terrorists are
basically a euphemism for extremist Islamists.

The US doesn't get this about Afghanistan either with their Northern Alliance war-lords being supported. It's another quagmire like Iraq and will bleed the US dry.

The point is that in enemy posing, we don't see the people. We see false conceptions.

If Israel could get that the Gazans are poverty-stricken and starving, perhaps their humanity would allow them to see through the knee-jerk AIPAC policies that Bush fomented.

It's an old worn-out solution to problems that never works. It's called waging war.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:09 PM

Here's the UN's definition of genocide...

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"

Israel's refusal to allow Gazans to leave the strip prior to bombing it indiscriminately (using weapons designed to kill large numbers of people indiscriminately), and its refusal to allow the people in Gaza to have access to food, water, fuel for heat, medical aid, and the materials needed to provide themselves with shelter (after their homes were destroyed by Israel) in the middle of winter, all support the use of the word genocide. I wouldn't say that Israel has already committed genocide. But I think it is probably accurate to say that Israel is in the process of committing a gradual kind of genocide, and that it will not stop until there are no Palestinians left in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM

Barry & Ifor, This was a war in which Israel engaged Hamas and other militants head on from inside civilian areas- which evidently is the only way to confront them. I'm not a military guy in any way, but when you fight a war - you generally need to win over your enemy. Tragic as this whole thing is, it is my understanding this was Hamas's planned defense tactic knowing full well that civilians would be at high risk and folks like you would be granted your chance to cry out that word GENOCIDE to gain world sympathy. I guess it all worked to Hamas's advantage? You think Israel would drop leaflets and announce civilians to get out of these areas beforehand if they were attempting Genocide or extermination? What kind of logic is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

If food isn't able to get in to a place that isn't able to produce enough food to feed the population won't take long before it does literally become a matter of genocide. Let us all hope that it doesn't come to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

I think a good argument for the use of the word "genocide" is made in the link in my 25 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM post. It's not hate or propaganda if it's true, and it does appear to be true.

Attempted extermination of a people is the only possible reason for refusing to allow food and other humanitarian aid into Gaza. Attempted extermination of a people is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM

How about "Attempted Extermination" Arnie, is that a little less tragic??

Barry