BS: Pope Francis

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 08:56 PM

Getting half of your colon surgically removed
and stitching together what remains . . .

Old age is not for sissies, is it!

If he were one of my relatives,
I would tell him to resign, like Benedict/Ratzinger, at this point.
If only for his own health and
for other people to stop worrying over him.

Too much confusion in my own mind
over his office and how he ought to use it.
I just feel for him as
one senior citizen feels for another.

And I hope, selfishly, that we do not have another
long drawn-out deathwatch phase
as we did with John Paul II.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

I watched a very disturbing, moving report about the 'stolen babies' of Argentina's 'dirty war' on BBC's Newsnight yesterday.
Newsnight
If you can's get Newsnight for any reasin, story is here

At the end of the report Jeremy Paxman spoke to Sue Lloyd Roberts, the author of the report about a development involving Pope Francis which I have transcribed below:

Jeremy Paxman:
"Sue Lloyd Roberts who made that report is here now, there's a development tonight?..."
Sue Lloyd Roberts:
"There is a development concerning the Pope. One of the grandmothers, one of the founding grandmothers, Estela de la Cuadra, has been on television and radio in Argentina over the last few days, saying that the current, the new Pope who is of course Argentinian should not have been elected because he lacked integrity. And the reason she says this is because the family appealed to the Pope when he was just a Jesuit priest, his name was Jorge Bergoglio for help. Their daughter who was five months pregnant had been arrested, and they knew that she had come to term, and there were rumours about these babies being born in captivity and they wanted to know what had happened to the mother and baby. So, they went to Bergoglio, and he did listen, he did help, many priests just told the mothers to go away, they didn't want to get involved, they were afraid, but Bergoglio wrote to his bishop whom he knew had good contacts with the military. They went to see the bishop and the bishop told them that "Yes, their granddaughter had been taken by a very important military family and he warned the biological family not to delve further otherwise they would get into serious trouble."
Jeremy Paxman:
"Why does this matter?"
Sue Lloyd Roberts:
"The reason this matters is that, you can see on the note which Bergoglio wrote to his bishop that the date is 1977, you see his signature beneath, and when Cardinal Bergoglio as he later became was giving evidence to the court a couple of years ago when the court was looking into the conduct of the Catholic Church during what's called 'the dirty war' he claimed that he knew nothing about the mothers, or the grandmothers, or these stolen babies until 1985, a good two years after the dictatorship came to an end. Now, why would he do this? Well his critics say it is because everybody who's of a certain age in Argentina today, has to account for what they were doing during 'the dirty war', particularly the church who had a very bad reputation. The majority of the priests collaborated with the regime or turned a blind eye. A few were very brave, indeed nineteen priests were murdered, including two bishops, but the critics of the Pope say he is saying he didn't know because by saying he didn't know, he can be forgiven for not having done more to help the victims of this terror. So if you like, he wants to stand on the side of the angels in this sad episode in Argentinian history, which is a good place for a Pope to be."

How, anyone living in Argentina could have been oblivious to what was going on I cannot imagine. Rather reminds me of the lines in Tom Paxton's song:

"We didn't know said the Bergermaster,
About the camp on the edge of town,
It was Hitler and his crew that
Brought the German nation down"

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

Most people change with age and experience... even if we still have our basic personality, it gets tempered or hardened as we go through life... think mellowed with age or grown embittered or rigid... the new pope is showing his own mind and convictions in small ways and as he grows into the "job" I expect that he will continue making his own stamp on the papacy. I also think that he will do a good deal of "soul searching" as the results of his actions become apparent.

Actions have intended and unintended consequences. Over population is a real issue and will get worse before it gets better ( and how that may occur is anyone's guess)... But there has been a definite trend to smaller families in the more affluent societies- regardless of faith. If birth control is affordable, it will be used. Abortion is expensive retroactive birth control - only to use as last resort. If he stays out of health education and recognizes that free will is only free will if there is actually choice available, I'll be happy. Surprised, but happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:38 PM

A friend of mine, a former Jesuit priest, is probably the most notorious opponent of the death penalty in our very conservative county. Last week, he was a speaker at a forum on the death penalty at our local community college. There were no speakers on the panel who were in favor of the death penalty, and the right-wingers were outraged. They claimed this was "brainwashing" our junior college students, a horrible thing indeed.

Posters in this forum often decry Catholic leaders who speak against birth control and homosexual marriage. The implication is that this is "brainwashing" poor, mindless Catholic lemmings. While I disagree with the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control and homosexual marriage, I don't really think they're horrible for holding those positions. That's what they think. I am free to think otherwise. If I'm a lemming, it's my own damn fault.

Pope Francis is unlikely to change the Catholic position on birth control. I'd like him to, but I won't hate him if he doesn't. In general, I try not to hate people who have thoughts different from mine. I might try to change their minds, but I won't hate them.

Same with Mother Teresa. I disagreed with her conservative thinking, but I hardly think she was an evil person for thinking as she did. I think she did the best she could to help the poor of Calcutta.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:42 PM

OK, but let's just see if he permits contraception in order to avert HIV/Aids in Africa so that millions of women can better fight discrimination, poverty, disease and misery, the legacy of the Catholic Church in Africa. Don't get me wrong. I like a chap who eschews the wealthy trappings he's entitled to and who kisses disabled people. But those actions are neither useful in that wider sense nor necessarily indicative of how the rest of his papacy will go. There has been a public relations disaster in recent years and he's beyond blame for trying to put that right. But we have a bit of a wait ahead of us. His true colours are not looking good.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:41 PM

I know I'm a crusty owld cynic, but the Vatican is just as skilled at spin as any political party or lobby group.

Really? It's very easy for any organisation to *recognise* the importance of good PR, but it's a great deal harder to achieve it. I would say that the recent record does not suggest the Vatican is skilled at spin. So I'm more inclined to assume this is one guy doing it his way, which will sometimes work and sometimes not, rather than a dark Machiavelli in the background.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:06 AM

Indeed. It would be millions of times more moving if he did something to help the women in Africa and Latin America out of ignorance, poverty, subjugation and inequality. They might not be too impressed with just a kiss. I know I'm a crusty owld cynic, but the Vatican is just as skilled at spin as any political party or lobby group.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:47 AM

Its not the man Ebbie, its the organisation.

Get real people into the priesthood and all will be well.

The bridge has been swept away and needs to be rebuilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:15 PM

The pope's moment with the child suffering from cerebral palsy was rather moving. I'm not Catholic but I have hopes for this man.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:35 PM

Couldn't you find it the first time? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

He had a meal with eggs-Benedict??


I'll get me coat...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 09:26 AM

He had a meal with eggs-Benedict??


I'll get me coat...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:09 AM

A news report last week said that the Pope had met the 'Pope emeritus' for a meal.

Did they go to Frankie & Benny's?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:38 AM

I hear that he is handing out contraceptives in St Peter's Square!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:30 PM

I agree with that, sciencegeek. But by his fruits shall you know him, not by the little crumb-like seeds of niceness he's throwing at the moment. I hate to sound cynical, but I can't help thinking there's a fair bit of spin going on here. After the lamentable years of the last two popes, who did nothing to stem the Church's imploding from within, it could be that someone has decided that a more folksy and chummy image is needed. Let's see what he does for the women of Africa and Latin America, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: sciencegeek
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM

I remember Pope John 23 and how human and caring he came across as... and how he shocked the world by selling off some of the papal wealth... and reached out to other faiths.

If Francis can help women and the poor achieve some measure of social justice, I'm all for it. I'm not a Christian... but the "teachings of Christ" that I've read promote tolerance, charity and empathy, which are ideals that I value.

Here's hoping the new pontiff can leave the world a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:47 AM

Presumably, the cardinals knew a bit about Bergogglio's history and attitudes, seeing as he was runner up in the last conclave. I have no doubts that some voted against him because the feared exactly the sort of tradition-breaking he has engaged in.
But I suspect that others knew the church needed some 'shaking up' and figured Bergogglio was the one to do it."Better him than me." Most will never admit their motives, and we can only speculate.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 09:22 AM

About the foot washing:

Bear in mind that Francis is the first Pope in *history* (that about two thousand years) known to have washed the feet of women and non-Christians.

Like all faiths, the Catholic Church is heavy on tradition and symbolism. What Francis did was, in a symbolic sense, epoch-making.

I'm far from being a Catholic, but I'm impressed by somebody who seems so deeply committed to ecumenicism, simplicity, and human dignity.

Not even a Pope can be perfect, but stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 09:13 AM

There will never be a perfectly "just" war any more than there will be a crime-free society.

But some wars are juster than others.

Of course, which ones those are depend on whom you ask.

Furthermore, some populations are far more anguished by injustice in war than others.

Assuming that counts for anything - and I think it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 05:11 AM

(oops)
... sort of literalism quite beside the point, and missing the basic message of the Gospels.


So, as I say, very early days, but a promising start.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 05:09 AM

Well, it's only been a little over two weeks since he became Pope, so it's a little early to make judgements. But there's certainly been some things I regard as positive signs. On Maunday Thursday he went out of the Basilica and washed the feet of prisoners, some of whom were women and some of whom were Muslim. It's a symbol, nothing more, but it is a good start. And it gives another, more subtle signal. One of the priests in a parish I was at changed the service so that only the feet of men could be washed, on the grounds the twelve were all men. The Pope's actions declare that sort of literalism

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:16 PM

That last requirement that "civilians not be involved" is one that counts World War II out of the picture, too.
Also, the Americans cranked so much racism into the war against the Japanese, that it MUST have been immoral, too.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:03 PM

Very few wars, if any, pass the conditions that could entitle them to be called "just war".

The conditions of a Just War are:
it must be fought by a legal recognised authority, eg, a government
the cause of the war must be just
the war must be fought with the intention to establish good or correct evil
there must be a reasonable chance of success
the war must be the last resort (after all diplomatic negotiations have been tried and failed)
only sufficient force must be used and civilians must not be involved

About the only war that arguably could be argued to meet these conditions that I can think of might be World War II - and many of the actions carried out by the Allies were in breach of the last condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM

I am pleased to report that the Catholic Church is moving closer and closer to abandoning the "just war" rationalization. If you look at Catholic documents about warfare over the last thirty years, you'd think they were frickin' pacifists.

And many Catholics in my right-wing community are worried that the Catholic Church is becoming "socialist" in its attitude toward poverty.

Now, if they can just mitigate their attitudes about homosexuality, women in ministry, and birth control/family planning issues...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 02:31 PM

Mugabe isn't in the same league as any leader of a democracy.

Prat

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM

The veneer that religion places over conflict would lead people to believe that wars are exempt from religious bias and practice. That's certainly not a view I've ever come across. It would be pretty extraordinary if were the case.

Afghanistan the longest war ever? Not yet, even including the Russian ccupation as part of the same war.   Hundred Years War, Thirty Years War...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:42 PM

The veneer that religion places over conflict would lead people to believe that wars are exempt from religious bias and practice. They are not. There are many preachers and rabbis in American religious institutions who hearken back to St. Augustines precept of "Just wars" which is a oxymoron. There are no just wars. The innocent is victimized as the "enemy". The old testament "time to kill" is another ancient rationalization for one of the most destructive activities that could finish mankind as a species.

This "just wars" attitude informs the policy of the U.S. regardless of the type of war.

The "Great War" is a misnomer when you consider that Afghanistan is the longest war ever perpetrated.

Somehow, this rationalization was a religious and political move that insinuated itself
by clerics into the realm of religious thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM

As a Nass killer Mugabe isn't in the same league as Bush, Putin, Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:39 AM

Bil D, that's ridiculous. Mugabe's movements in Europe are tightly controlled - in fact he is banned from travel in the EU to all intents and purposes. He could not have got to Vatican City without dispensation, short of landing a private jet in St Peter's Square. In any case, the visiting heads of state were not merely "part of the crowd," any more than the serried ranks of cardinals.

Joe, Francis's two predecessors had been building up cordial relations with Palestine and no doubt that policy will continue. Both visited the Holy Land, including Bethlehem in the West Bank.

In some ways the relationship with Palestine is less of a challenge than that with Israel. In the latter case there are always tensions: partly historic, going back through the blood libel to the crucifixion; and partly present-day. (There has been a series of difficult negotiations about Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, for instance, in which - among other things - the Vatican finished up ceding control of the so-called last-supper room to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:56 AM

https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/21/pope-francis-argentinian-junta-priest

httpq://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/21/pope-francis-argentinian-junta-priest

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 10:16 PM

From today's Guardian. Pope Francis did not denounce me to Argentinian junta, says priest

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:57 PM

I doubt his Popeness made the 'decision' to allow/invite Mugabe. Whether he recognized him in the midst of 500 handshakes is an interesting question.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: RichM
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:50 PM

Despite some assertions here about minimizing or discounting what the Church did a mere thirty or forty years ago, I would remind all that the Catholic Church glories in its pride in an unbroken two thousand year old record of continuity.

I'm sorry to state the obvious--but such an organization cannot brush aside controversy that is so comparatively recent.

I can only hope---no I don't have the temerity to call it pray---for humans to continue to evolve psychologically past the social virus called religion.

Atheism, freedom and truth await.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:42 PM

I doubt if they'd have turned a representative from the Paletinian Authority away.

After all, when the UN voted to give Palestine Observer Status at the UN the Vatican issued a press statement saying "The Holy See welcomes with favor the decision of the General Assembly by which Palestine has become a Non-member Observer State of the United Nations."

After all, the word Catholic means "universal".

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:08 PM

It does seem that Mugabe may be taking advantage of Vatican invitations to lend legitimacy to his reign. He also showed up at the beatification of John Paul II in 2011. Perhaps the Vatican should be more discriminating in it's invitation list - but perhaps not. If it makes a point of inviting every nation, then it avoids making a political statement by its list. Did it invite Palestine? That, to me, would be a more telling issue.
Still, since Jesus ate with sinners, maybe it's not appropriate for a church to vet the invitation list.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:59 PM

It has a historical pattern of thriving under dictatorships. How much the present Pope collaborated with the junta isn't known, but those that live under these conditions can learn to exempt themselves or fight against them as the two disappeared priests did in Argentina.
As far as I know, the current Pope did not speak out against these atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:25 PM

Err.. yes. The church can promote and defend family values. But until it recognises gay families it will be as irrelevant as Akenbigotedaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:21 PM

I understand the Pope was photographed shaking hands with Mugabe. Did he not recognise him? One might hope that he follows this with a word or two of condemnation.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:01 PM

"The Great War - I was referring to a little disagreement that took place between 1914 and 1918 (for most countries involved) which certainly didn't have too much to do with religious differences, and with the consequences of which we are still living through today."

The war was still a part of the prevailing Christian righteousness of American leaders at the time. However the this war was not ostensibly a prevailing religious one. Still, under the pretext of morality and religion, Eugene Debs and Bertrand Russell were jailed under the sedition laws of the time. And the war impacted the "Easter Uprising" in Ireland which wanted Home Rule. We still live with the Christian ethic of war today which is unduly controlling the U.S. military now.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 10:19 AM

It wasn't a matter of invitations. All governments are informed, and send whom they choose. There are no invitations as such. the UK sent the Duke of Gloucester and Kenneth Clarke, Germany sent Angela Merkel. Cuba sent its vice-president, as did the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:35 AM

It does seem to me that those of us who have been fortunate enough not to have to live with vile juntas running things have no business criticising those who haven't.

Not happy about Mugabe, though - but how does he get to the Vatican if he is banned in Italy?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:24 AM

Re the Dirty War:


http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/world/pope-francis-and-argentinas-dirty-war-accusers-say-he-knew-of-torture-defenders-say-he-


"Some leading Argentine human rights activists agree that Bergoglio, now 76, doesn't deserve to be lumped together with other church figures who were closely aligned with the dictatorship.

"'Perhaps he didn't have the courage of other priests, but he never collaborated with the dictatorship,' Adolfo Perez Esquivel, who won the 1980 Nobel Peace Prize for documenting the junta's atrocities, said.

"'Bergoglio was no accomplice of the dictatorship. He can't be accused of that,' Perez Esquivel told Radio de la Red in Buenos Aires."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 05:00 AM

I agree with your assessment Mr McGrath, there are many things the church can do to make itself more relevant to the problems facing us, without breaking up the foundations of society and family life
Addressing poverty is a good start. The church can be a power for good if it is reformed in the image of the philosopher Jesus.

The family structure has served humanity well for thousands of years, the church is correct to defend it against attack, or current fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:48 PM

The Great War - I was referring to a little disagreement that took place between 1914 and 1918 (for most countries involved) which certainly didn't have too much to do with religious differences, and with the consequences of which we are still living through today.
............

The impression from Pope Francis that I get is that he's got his priorities about right.

As for the stuff about the junta back in the seventies, it must be a pretty difficult thing dealing with a regime like that and avoiding making things worse. Maybe he made some mistakes, maybe he played the best hand he could with the cards he held.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:27 PM

If a door was indeed opening, Wolfhound person, it was surely slammed shut with the new pope's shameful decision to invite Robert Mugabe (banned from all European state except, apparently, Vatican City) to his inauguration. But then I suppose popes have always been the natural bedfellows of tyrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM

Wolfhound person... yes. That's the deal. His choice of name and his first address indicated... nay... brought a light into the eyes and a smile to the lips of zCat'lics worldwide and to any others that care what the Cat'lic Church does in the future. Hundreds of years behind was a quote from another thread but every small step forward is welcome and graciously accepted... to do or say otherwise is counterproductive. Ya can't move an elephant witha small stick and shooting it just don't work at all. Still, a lot of people shoot at the elephant... although I have no idea why they waste thier ammo, silly sods!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:35 PM

It does look as if a door might be opening slightly, Joe. I really hope there's a shaft of light behind it, and that it won't get slammed on his fingers by the bureaucrats.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:19 PM

Pope Francis is the best hope we progressive Catholics have had since the unfortunate election of John Paul II in 1978, and his subsequent dismantling of the hopes engendered by Vatican II. He seems like a decent, reasonable person who has a concern for the poor and a disdain for pretentiousness and power. I'm a little nervous because he's certainly conservative, but he does not seem to be a repressive sort of conservative or one who confuses church unity with uniformity. I hope will tolerate us on the left, and show us at least some respect. There's no reason why there has to be uniformity in the Catholic Church - it will be a much healthier organization if it fosters a wide spectrum of thinking.

The Pope's actions in the 1970s do raise a question, but that was a long, long time ago. Can his actions then predict what he'll do now as pope? I don't think so. I think our society expends too much energy on placing blame and demanding retribution for past offenses. We have too many current problems that need fixing.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:51 PM

I am very sad about the junta thing but I think it will be for the good in the long run. THese poor people who suffered through it need to have a voice to say what went on and this might give them someone to focus on, rightly or wrongly..or an international forum....more truths will come out and it will ultimately be for the best...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM

Frank
only to attempt to justify unjust actions is religion used my dear friend. Hitler used the Jewish condemnation to blame the economy of Germany. They were easy targets to blame. That is usually the case, find the weakest, find something a population can blame, use it for political gain. Nothing really to do with faith or religion.