What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM

Will Fly: you were asking what prompted the mix. I've been exploring links between black and white music for a long time, and the evolving of African and Bahamian/Caribbean music into rap is another very interesting story. Also the traditional dance music of NW England, and how it interacted via sailing ships with other cultures since 1700. Add the explosion of dance music in Manchester in the last twenty years, link that to the fact there are seven different tunes all called Mancahster Hornpipe, and you have an idea worth pursuing. There are lots of young urabn musicians in Manchester, and they have a powerful musical culture which is evolving quickly and well-positioned to comment on the changes happening in our society. And the urban musicians, let's face it, are a bit more streety on average than most of the youngsters in the current post-revival folk scen: so you get a rather different slant on music. More "folk" in fact, perhaps?(In the old meaning of the word).
ANyway, this project, ongoing in Manchester and Liverpool, is proving very inspiring, to us in the band and to some other young musicians.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jayto
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:48 AM

We performed a rap song the other night in a folk/alt country setting. We did Gin and Juice by Snoop Dogg and Dr.Dre. We sung it and played guitar and mandolin with it. The crowd went through the roof. We did not come up with this arrangement though I am not trying to steal anyone's thunder lol. I played a gig with a band called the Gourds and it was an arrangement that they have of the song. Alot of people credit the jam band Fish with recording it but it wasn't Fish it was the Gourds. I think in the future some of the rap will be viewed as folk. Rage Against the Machine addressed current social issues straight forward and without pulling any punches. Tupac Shakur was another that rapped about social injustices and the good and bad of both sides of the economic and social lines. I am not a rap fan (although I do love Rage Against the Machine) but they (some of them not all) do chronicle what is going on in modern society better than most music forms that are popular today. Most of mainstream music today is worried about writing and delivering a big hook line that will sale umpteen million copies. They are more worried about the package that is delivering the hook (looks, marketability) than the actual content of the package being delivered. So I think (whether I like it or not) Rap is more of a source for social documentation than other popular forms of music today. For that reason I think rap will be the next folk. Even punk which has a reputation for social observations has failed to step up to bat. Then is you think about how many young people know the words to tons of rap songs by heart it becomes very clear to me. Remeber today's youth is tomorrows elderly that will be passing on thier way of life. I belive it will become the next folk even more. If the youth of today was around alot of folk when they were younger though that would make a big difference. Alot of times it seems that as people age they like to search out things that remind them of the past. Things that offered them happiness in thier younger days and provided them fond memories. So I think we could see some kind of resurgence on the music scene (not sure what). I know my son (he's 10) and alot of kids on their early teens around here are into 80's heavy metal instead of rap. I know that is not a saving characteristic for many on this board. My son is into folk though he has grown up listening to it from me and alot of different family members. He has a TON of friends that have grown up listening to it by always being around me and my brother playing music and listening to it. So they are aware of it and like some of the songs. I guess that is why we all have to do our parts to keep our music alive. If not Rap will take over without a doubt. I Think it is anyway but I have time to breath so I have time to fight lol.
cya
JT

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

Greg - what prompted the idea of combining the two genres (trad./Boat Band and rap artists)? Just curious. Mmm... Boat Band with Sly and Robbie - now THAT would be a great idea.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

Yes, I think we are working with rap, and it is rap. The blend of rapping and slow singing is identical to what is used in lots of hiphop etc music. Those acoustic tracks merely have the drum, bass and computer generated stuff stripped out(though on other tracks we are working with it all in). More importantly, the people we are working with are young urban artists who work out in the clubs DJing and rapping. They are not music teachers, they have not got degrees in Rapology Studies, they are the real deal. Very exciting stuff.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:12 AM

Hi Greg - I enjoyed both tracks. I suppose it's not really the language of rapping that puts me off - though much of it has its fair share of hos and bitches - but, in many cases, the complete absence of any melody and harmony. And I love melody and harmonies. The songs you've put up on your Myspace page are full of melody and harmony, not just drum'n bass or other backings - and the vocals are not simple monotone chants.

So, it was good stuff - but was it actually rap? (@$^£&*) :-) (Only kidding - not another debate...)

:-)

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:07 AM

All very commendable, Greg - but what would Tim Westwood make of it?

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

A lot of posters here are wary(or hostile) to rap. We have just finished another phase of our ongoing rap collaboaration project, and you can hear another couple of samples on
Boat Band Myspace .

Highly non-threatening, and totally acoustic, these particular recordings! I-Deal's singing is a very gospelly, Meistro's rapping has no guns or ho's in it, so I'm sure folkies will find it endearing. Well, hopefully so, have a listen and tell me what you think. I have just put two new tracks up,Shallow Brown and Manchester Hornpipe, both with "rap" in the title. I won't leave them there for ever, but they should be around for a couple of months from the date of this post. I would be most grateful for any comments.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

"No: it's a different genre - one of the American genres; and certainly not one of my favourites."

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? If it's American it can't be folk???????????

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:27 AM

Have put a bit of blog on recent Boat Band rap/folk interface activity here (I hope)

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:19 AM

And in a way Nintendo is like the Copper family - a repository for all that we mean by the English traditions since Game Boy.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:17 PM

Sorry, that wasn't me--

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:30 PM

a folk is a rap and it is a new folk a folk is a tool and a man and women adnd girl and a boy i am a folk

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:40 PM

"Barry, did you get that job working for McCain's PR department"

Thanks Ron, with that type of spin, if I could land the job doing PR for the old War Wimp, I'd love to sink him.

"come to think of it, I once did a whole show on that topic! It stunk!

Horse shit???

Barry

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

I inadvertenly heard a rap song on Saturday night.I had just finished a gig,and was returning to my vehicle in a peaceful and tranquil manner.
I passed another vehicle in which the wireless had been left on:over the airwaves came this rap piece,it was good,all about Tony Blair and George Bush and their war mongering.
it was a bit like a modern talking blues,now whether its folk or not ,again I dont care a Fiddlers Fart,but it was good.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM

"Next we'll be singing folk songs by horses & horses asses "

come to think of it, I once did a whole show on that topic! It stunk!

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

"So we no longer need the folk to produce folk music, mother earth we'll do it for us?"

Wow, now I know how a pretzel must feel when it gets twisted and turned. The response I wrote was about "tone", not folk music.   Barry, did you get that job working for McCain's PR department??? :)

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

No: it's a different genre - one of the American genres; and certainly not one of my favourites.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Suffet
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

Greetings:

Once again, there are many examples of non-melodic music. Hasn't anyone heard Billy Jonas? I've heard him once at the Clearwater Hudson River Revival and another time at the University of North Carolina in Asheville. He uses all sorts of homemade rhythm instruments (for example, drums made from empty barrels) to create very complex, multi-layered music, all without the sequence of tones that vary in pitch and duration that we call melody.

And what about Gene Krupa with his remarkable extended jazz drum solos? Or Babatunde Olatunji, the Nigerian born drummer who did the music for the Broadway production of A Raisin in the Sun? I count myself lucky to be old enough to have heard both of them live.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:14 PM

Er - yeah, WLD, which ones actually existed then?

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:59 PM

So we no longer need the folk to produce folk music, mother earth we'll do it for us? The folking process now is sub-human & independant of our speices.

"Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain" By some Cascades, maybe in the High Serrias is now a folk song written by Mother Earth

Next we'll be singing folk songs by horses & horses asses

Barry

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:54 PM

"Where, in Rap, do we find tones?"

Everything has a tone. The earth even emits a tone as it revolves. If you read the definition that you shared with us, you will see the harmonic dependicies and relationships that please the ear - even if that ear is attached to someone else.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:44 PM

My only response, after seeing so much discussion of this seemingly unresolvable issue, is regarding Rap. To me, music at least consists of a succession of organized tones. I refer to this exerpt from Webster:

"The science and the art of tones, or musical sounds, i. e., sounds of higher or lower pitch, begotten of uniform and synchronous vibrations, as of a string at various degrees of tension; the science of harmonical tones which treats of the principles of harmony, or the properties, dependences, and relations of tones to each other; the art of combining tones in a manner to please the ear."

Where, in Rap, do we find tones? Generally, Rap consists of rhythmic word play, with tones either non-existent or barely represented. I could live with the idea of Rap as a sort of "folk art" or "performance art," but I cannot accept it as a musical form.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM

Yes indeed. In a way Super Mario was the Cecil Sharp of his generation.

Lara Croft in many ways represnts what the Hammonds achieved in a less learned but more crudely energetic sort of way.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

Don's "Medway" original is good.


M Ted - who found the definition wanting (as distinct from disagreeing with it) and why and how? I am genuinely curious about the succession of changes and reasons.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

"I do ask if someone can site where these communities keep their "Rap" alive & just what is the process they the do this? "

Barry, I can only speak for what I see in my area, and what my kids tell me. It seems that rap is created in the schoolyards, lunch rooms, community dances, roller rinks, etc. - places where people gather to party and relax. Rap is just part of the continuing hip hop culture that grew out of urban streets in the late '70s.   

From what I see, I do think that the commercialization of hip hop and rap into the mainstream is probably having the same effect that folk music had in the '60s. Everyone wanted to make some money off of it, but what happened was that folk music integrated into popular culture and changed popular music. The singer-songwriters that developed in the 1970's were part of the evolution of folk music.   I think rap is going through the same changes, and it is impossible to see where it will go.

Thank you also for the mention of my radio show. I will PM you Don.   One thing - I do not normally play rap music! :)   I can't focus on every tradition! :)

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:24 AM

Ron is & has Don, he does have a great folk show & I'm honored that he's aired stuff from my CD more than once

Barry

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:19 AM

""but they are at present at least wholly linked to him, known to be by him, not varied in their performance (if at all) by others. They are HIS songs about, but not of, the folk.""

Except for one ("Fair Maids of Kent") which has been processed into the repertoire of one John Barden (The Barden of England), and changed by him in a way that I wholeheartedly approve, so I guess THAT one is on its way.

Ron, are you actually in a position to air music, and if so where? If you would like a demo CD for radio play, PM me with an address and I'll send one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:24 AM

Ron, I'm not confusing "folk music" with or "folk song" neither do I confuse folk communities because of the places they dwell or the skin color of the dwellers. But I do ask if someone can site where these communities keep their "Rap" alive & just what is the process they the do this? Is it the corner Barber shop, or the local Juke Joint, is it sung on the street coner under a lamp post in 4 part harmony or at parties in the kitchen? Is it actually alive in the community or is it just visible as a commerical enterprise in a juke box or on stage? Pleas explain how this community has taken this folk form on, processed it, honed it down swapped it aroung & passed it on? I didn't see this happen when I was growing up in the same communities where I 1st encountered "Rap" but I do conceid that I was there only in it very eary stages & didn't have a chance to be witness to Rap's folk process.

Barry

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:56 AM

ok.. serious for a moment..

soon-ish.. when most of you old lot are dead and gone...

and my 'punk rock' generation are in our 70's..

and the 80's & 90's rappers are also in line for their pensions

will the never ending 'what is folk' disagreement have reached a happy conclusion ?

or just be lost and forgotten ???



replaced by

'playstation' is the traditional peoples artform of expression..

no no you are so wrong.. its 'gameboy'


yes but the 2004 definition clearly states that 'pacman'
is the religious root of all our culture


corporate pop media culture moves and consumes so so swiftly..

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:41 AM

Just to through a spanner in the works, let me point out that the 1954 definition of "folk" was developed by the International Folk Music Council to describe their work, not DonT, or Barry Finn, or Richard Bridge, or any of the other mudcat "crew.

The definition was hotly debated for years after, and was found to be wanting to such degree that the "International Folk Music Council" changed it's name to"The International Council for Traditional Music"--

The notorious "1954 definition," quoted above from their constitution, has been replaced with this:

"The objective of the Council shall be to assist in the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music and dance, including folk, popular, classical, urban, and other genres, of all countries."

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:15 PM

"I would tend to think that it'll become a folk song only & if the folk community takes it to heart & includes it in it's repatoire."

That might be the heart of the problem. There are DIFFERENT folk communities, not just one. It is not something that this group of Mudcatters needs to embrace in order for it to be folk music - nor is it something that you or I need sing for it to be folk. The fact is, there is a community that takes this music to heart and it is part of their repatoire - and not in a staged fashion that we recognize as part of our own "folk community".   You do not need to have a song circle of rap singers at a festival in order for the music to be folk music. It has gone through its own "folk process", yet it is not one that has made the music traditional in the sense that we think of "Barbara Allen" or such songs.

Barry, when you say that you have "experienced Rap's acceptance in it's community" - you are noting the folk process that rap has gone through. It is not a "process" in the traditional sense, but it is a process that grew out of a community - not a single person changing a style.


Also, let's not confuse "folk song" and "folk music". They are two different terms and describe different items - they are not interchangeable.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:45 PM

Don
"I write songs in the folk idiom, and am well aware that I will be dead and gone for many years before any of them are accepted, if any ever are."

Ron
"True, but you are making folk music.   Same as Rap. It fits."

I would tend to think that it'll become a folk song only & if the folk community takes it to heart & includes it in it's repatoire.
If it gets just airplay then perhaps it becomes a commerically sucessful singer/songwriter's song. It can get airplay today but that won't make it a folk song tomorrow. That sometimes requires a bit more time.

Which brings me to a the question of the folk process in which "Rap" would go through the grinder. I have experienced Rap's acceptance in it's community but I have been removed from that community for nearly 30 yrs, so I can't speak to nor would I know of the folk process of Rap.
Anyone care to respond?

Barry

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:30 PM

Hey, if I sing them - it would no longer be a song! My voice would turn it into noise!

I would certainly play Don's songs on the radio.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

PS - why not start singing some? I am vaguely intending to try to do my own arrangements of some (well, one at least) - reasonably soon. I am sure Don will be happy to send you MP3s of his original songs if you are minded to sing them.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

Precisely. Don's songs have not been through the process.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:58 PM

Sorry Richard, it is not the song but the process that makes it folk music - and it fits contemporary defintitions. It is indeed folk music.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:46 PM

Well, no, Ron. Don writes some excellent songs, in the folk style (some more so than others), telling of the viscissitudes of working (or unworking) life [strange given his politics - I could not resist that] but they are at present at least wholly linked to him, known to be by him, not varied in their performance (if at all) by others. They are HIS songs about, but not of, the folk.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:20 PM

"I write songs in the folk idiom, and am well aware that I will be dead and gone for many years before any of them are accepted, if any ever are."

True, but you are making folk music.   Same as Rap. It fits.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:03 PM

Ditto on all that Don, thanks

Barry

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

Where the hell is this "rant" in my original post.

I merely stated that IMO music needed to have, not just rhythm, but melody, and for that reason I consider Rap to be rhythmic poetry. I did in fact clearly state that I thought it was a folk art.

The mention of fifty years consideration as to the "folk" appellation was in reference to the fact that many in the folkscene do not recognise anything from the revival of 60s as "folk", a point of view with which I disagree as it happens.

I write songs in the folk idiom, and am well aware that I will be dead and gone for many years before any of them are accepted, if any ever are.

I will continue to express my opinion as and when I see fit, without asking permission from anyone.

Don T.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:43 PM

If all music is folk music then the question of whether rap is folk has no meaning. The proposition would certainly surprise most of the denizens of Leo's Red Lion, where there is today a "Battle of the bands" for the opportunity to play a support slot at Bloodstock, and I would be surprised if they took kindly to being told that thier music was folk music.

The expression "folk music" was used with some if not perfect consistency from teh mid 1800s to the mid 1900s. There is a difference in kind, not a difference in style (although there may also be differences in style) nor a difference in quality. To say that the cocept of folk music, like the concept of the noble savage, is a pretension and a condescension does not answer the question of whether the distinction between songs shaped by the community (which is not the same thing as song styles shaped by the community) and songs shaped only by specified creators and/or economic influences is a valid one or not.

It was generally assumed until Lloyd that only agrarian or peasant communities created folk music and song. Lloyd's assumption and assertion that there might be industrial folk song was handicapped by dearth of examples (as discussed on this forum). Both models involve the predicate that there are songs that by evolution are extant in a community so that the current form(s) in the community cannot be shown to be the work of known authors (and I suggest that nowadays that might be despite the known identity of the originating author, so long at the song is no longer principally as he delivered it. It is a "top down"/"bottom up" difference and I have never yet seen any denial of the distinction of type that is in the least credible.

What the correct definition is may be open to some discussion (and I adhere to one view as for example WLD does to another) but to say that there is no distinction seems to me to be unlikely to be justificable. SOme may say that it is a distinction without a difference, but that, too, cannot be so while different societies have different common forms of music.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:20 PM

...folk music, in any case, doesn't actually exist.

Well, that should settle it, once and for all. Hooray!

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 12:06 PM

Ummmmmmm, to answer the the question: kinda... Rap is a newer from of "folk music" but in no way "the" new folk... Important difference here... "The" new "folk music" inplies that it superseeds other forms of folk music...

BTW, my son does some real nice rap which, as a bluesman myself, think is cool because we both are engaged in folk music with roots to the black community... And the two forms are not all that dissimilar in they both tell stories of sruggle... And, believe it or not, when he was visiting a couple years ago I have a gig and invited him up on stage and we did a rap/blues medely which was real interesting...

As for folk music... I think of it is the music of the common man played on somewhat primitive instruments played by folks, not in concert halls but at picnics, in the home and on back porches by a large number of folks who, by in large, are not classically trained... I do see it very differently from classical music...

Jus' MO, of course...

B~

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:44 AM

Richard, You are correct - it is highly doubtful thay JayZ would perform a Snoop Dog piece. Again, I consider that very similar to the "party piece" analogy and the fact that many collectors would find songs only in the songbag of a single family.

The sharing of songs and the "folk process" are parts of a larger process.

If you wish to cling to the 1954 definition, you can still have folk music without having a folk song.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

In simple language, Richard:

All music is human and therefore folk by default. The 1954 definition is a manifestation of the same voyeuristic patronisation which is the wellspring of all perceived folklore, which only becomes such when actually defined, otherwise it gets along just fine without it. Rather like language with linguistics, the latter existing only by virtue of the former, but nevertheless giving rise all manner of pedantry, which I fear is the case here. Taxonomy creates systems by virtue of its own method - these systems are figments of the taxonomical process. Folk music is one such figment; it is a theoretical construct, and has no actual meaning beyond what is in terms of actually experiencing the bloody thing. Some people use stamps to stick on envelopes, others collect them & catalogue them; some people use trains for getting from A to B - others spot them. Some people sing traditional songs as part of a celebratory collective catharsis - others... well, I'm sure you know what I'm saying.

Sherlock Holmes warned against making the facts fit the theory; with the 1954 definition, I fear that's exactly what has happened. All real music is subject to the same folk process - be it pop, rock, jazz, hip-hop, gamelan, drum & bass, country, classical, whatever. The imaginary music you call Folk is rather like a model railway, which is in every way authentic, exact in every detail, but in no way is it real. As I have said before, the difference between your average Model Railway Enthusiast and your average Folk Music Enthusiast (myself included) is that the former would at least recognise a real train should they see one.

I love Traditional English Folk Song (English as in language rather than nation); it's what I do, and how I spent most of my social life - interfacing with others in folk clubs, festivals & singarounds in a collective experience which is, after all, strictly empirical. I know this works for me; I trust in it implicitly and I dearly love all the singers & enthusiasts & musicians & dancers & organisers who make this thing the living breathing wonderful thing that it is. I am, however, under no illusions as to what it is, or else its relationship to the rest of world music, which is part and parcel of the appeal I reckon; we quirky eccentric individualists who immerse our evident idiosyncrasies into the collective experience of a Bloody Good Sing.

But out there in the real world...

No matter; folk isn't about the real world. If it was, chances are, I wouldn't be interested. The Folk World exists in oblique parallax to the real world, but shares a similar necessity; in short, it sings about how good the old one was.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

Oh shit, horses again.

And, what is worse, a horse that appears to have eaten several dictionaries without learning how to convey meaning.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:23 AM

IMHO the requirement that the song has been adopted into and modified by the community is correct, but the requirement that the song be anonymous is probably no longer correct

It is the genre as a whole we're looking at here; the collective cultural process by which said genre lives & breathes & perpetuates itself by virtue of its own transfiguration. The essentially occult & objective nature of this process gives rise to the subjective brilliance which is it immediate and singular manifestation, very often upping the anti for the entire genre, restructuring the whole thing. In jazz, think John Coltrane, who was only building on what others had done before him; think Rahsaan Roland Kirk who took it onto another level. In folk, think Davie Stewart: an idiosyncratic genius giving voice to a tradition; he may not be actually writing it, but in purely corporeal & creative terms, he is the medium conducting a very essential seance. The individual voices of rap are similarly mediumistic; the tradition being reinforced in fierce competition with clear rules wherein skills are honed and perfected and the music as a collective entity is enforced and sustained. Whether this makes it folk music or not is another matter, because folk music, in any case, doesn't actually exist, but it does make it a powerful and beautiful music and a force, and manifestation, of human musical genius on a par with any other.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:08 AM

what PRECISELY qualifies him to decide who IS entitled to express an opinion, and who is NOT?

If expressing your opinion amounts to an unqualified rant against something you have absolutely no experience or understanding of, which you clearly don't in this instance, then I'd say said opinion was really best kept to yourself. It's a negative outpouring - perhaps even trolling in Mudcat parlance - indicative of broader levels of such bigoted intolerance in the so-called folk community. As for what qualifies me to say this, simply my belief in living and letting live & that it takes all sorts to make a world.

As someone for whom all music is folk music as I've never heard a horse sing a song, then by that definition alone, rap is folk. There's nothing new about rap and hip hop, with an established & evolving structural vocabulary going way back, as has been shown. It is as old, if not older, than Folkie Folk Music, which only begins in 1954, born from a theoretical construct based on an interpretation of certain corporeal precedents which may, or may not, have seem themselves in that way, or in any way at all. Like all folklore, it's only the folklorists who perceive it as such.

In terms of both the Spleen Process and the Horse Definition, then rap, along with all world human musics, bar none, is folk music because all music is folk music by default. However, whether or not these musics see themselves as folk music is another matter entirely. Personally I doubt they would out of dread association with what Folkie Folk Music has become as a result of its own somewhat precious definition (1954 or otherwise) thus informing the self-serving bigoted myth that is the very worst of what Folkie Folk Music has become in its self-imposed cultural exile from folk music as a whole. You want evidence of that, look no further than this thread.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:01 AM

There lies, I think, the nub of it. Is it sufficent to qualify as "folk" if "style, words & trademark phrasing" (I assume here that you mean short phrases of words, not a substantially entire lyric) are retained in and modified by the community?

As I read the 1954 definition it would only suffice if the song as such were so treated.

Somewhat similarly if C#'s view that a folk sing has to be anonymous is correct then the pride of authorship in the rap movement negates the possibility of rap songs being folks songs.

That takes us back to the question of how accurate the 1954 definition and C#'s opinion were.

IMHO the requirement that the song has been adopted into and modified by the community is correct, but the requirement that the song be anonymous is probably no longer correct.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:50 AM

Not only is the answer to that no but it could very well set off a bloody musical "turf war".

But I'm sure that as one older incon mentor passes on his style, words & trademark phrazing to their proteges, they will retain in the oral tradition how the song was 1st recorded in the field & the evolutionary changes the songs have gone through (whilst avoiding copyright & legal issues)as it passes through the community f singers or rappers as the case may be & also where the various varints & versions sprouted from.

Damn, a folk genre all in a mere 40 yrs, an anomaly for sure.

And here I thought I have to wait untill I died to see & hear that happen


Barry