BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:19 AM

"It is Jim and Greg who just can not or will not engage in any kind of reasoned exchange of views without being abusive."
I have not been abusive - show me where I have.
It seems that presentg too many facts is considered "abusive" by some
Now - that abuse I am supposed to have given???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:15 AM

"Jim, the page you linked to was six years old and has been superseded by events many times since then."
The page I linnked to was about hack journalism and it included your "terrorist expert"
Nice try, but no cigar.
If he has suddenly graduated into being a "real historian", I look forward to receiving the details
The Daily Mirror "left wing"!!!!!
It's an establishment bum-wipe
I suppose that copared to your outlook on life it is possessively revolutionary.
Nothing has changed

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Cookie wherefore art thou?
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:53 AM

What is a "left wing" newspaper? Why give it credence versus any other rag?

Why try to start a thread laying down pompous rules meaning not being able to point out the distortions and not very well hidden agenda Keith is attaching to it?

A gun man massacres lots of people. That is the fact of the matter. He was brainwashed by some religion inspired attempt to control society. That is the rationale of the matter.

So, where do opinions come into it? Other than giving them the oxygen of publicity that they crave.

A wider debate on the dangers of religion on vulnerable minds through suggestion or the impotence and failures of western military ideas might come of it.

But too soon eh? Let's let relatives bury their dead before using them for idealistic point scoring Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:48 AM

Leaf out of a boot? Wondered what was irritating my fook...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:47 AM

Thanks Keith. So why 'you people' when addressing me? Why 'you people' at all? It is ridiculous. If I may take a leaf out of that boot you said

I suggest we stop raking over old arguments.
I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions.

Followed by HiLo saying

You have been very nasty on occasion.

You people say one thing and then do another.

See? Stupid isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:01 AM

It is also rich that you ask if you have ever abused anyone. You have been very nasty on occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:59 AM

No abuse from me Raggy.
Or from you Dave.
It is Jim and Greg who just can not or will not engage in any kind of reasoned exchange of views without being abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:25 AM

That's pretty rich coming from you. Your posts are littered with remarks like "you people" and "your gang" etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:09 AM

Dave, obviously I know that mine is not the only view.
You people have all been putting a different one.
Do you accept there are other views Dave, because Greg just stated,
"Of COURSE its not the ONLY one, Keith. But it is the fact based one, the evidence based one, and therefore the correct one."

If you people are unable to make a case reasonably and rationally, and without abuse, you will just get us deleted again.


This was addressed to me. Why 'you people' again? Why would you think that I not accept there are other views because Greg said something? What have I done that is either unreasonable or irrational? Where have I abused anyone? Address what has actually been said rather than a mysterious gang of 'you people' and the thread is more likely to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:02 AM

Jim, the page you linked to was six years old and has been superseded by events many times since then.
Poor homework!

The current page I provided was from a Left Wing paper which acknowledged the status of the "expert."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:38 AM

Jim, I heartily agree about those with no facts and set agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:33 AM

"Jim , you need to learn to do proper research"
You have no idea what homework have done.
These forums of for the exchange of opinions and information - if I have missed something, feel free to fill in the gaps rather than to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about.
So - you have what I think I know - educate me!
I suggest that "part of the problem" are those who come with no facts, just set agendas
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 02:25 AM

No-one seems to be thinking of the people of Tunisia in this discussion (I haven't read every post so if anyone has mentioned Tunisia and Tunisians, my apologies). This brutal act may well destroy, or at least severely damage, the Tunisian tourist industry - which, in turn, probably represents a significant part of the Tunisian economy. Many Tunisians, who work in the industry, are likely to be thrown out of work and left poverty-stricken. And poor, workless people are more easily radicalised. There is also the risk of de-stabilising the Tunisian state. Terrorism always has objectives beyond gratuitous slaughter - it is "the war of the flea". This flea with his AK47 may achieve as much as all of the much bigger monsters with their tanks and artillery and their drones and air-strikes. They're all 'paving the way to Hell', of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:04 PM

Without doing any homework it should be obvious that the blowback revenge by people who had children parents spouses and friends murdered by one or multiple insurgent groups will carry those wounds for many generations to come.

There are examples like the Tutsies and Hutus of healing national or religious war wounds in one generation but I do not know this to have happened in The United States or the middle east.

Not even the confederacy seems to have buried the hatchet after 4 generations.

Will it take 2 centuries or more for middle east civility?
Or is this too an unreasonable question.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:39 PM

Jim , you need to learn to do proper research. Your kind of talk is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Please put your prejudices aside, do some homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:41 PM

Neil who?
At least he is admitting (whoever he is - another "expert", no doubt) that the rise in Islamic terrorism is due to Britain's own actions and not out of the Muslim religion - which is more than you are.
HERE'S YOUR "TERRORIST EXPERT"
Obviously a "real one" who sells his books in "real bookshops".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:34 PM

Is that what you want?

That should be obvious by now, stifling debate is the MO of ideologues.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:05 PM

Jim, this from Daily Mirror,
"Terrorism expert Neil Doyle said reports Rezgui – one of an estimated 7,000 Tunisians to have joined IS ranks – was deliberately singling out Brits was "particularly worrying".

He continued: "The slaughter in Sousse means that Islamic State has perhaps reached one of its main objectives: the mass murder of Britons in retaliation for the limited participation of the UK in military action against it.""
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/tunisia-terror-attack-killer-relaxed-5961141

Dave, obviously I know that mine is not the only view.
You people have all been putting a different one.
Do you accept there are other views Dave, because Greg just stated,
"Of COURSE its not the ONLY one, Keith. But it is the fact based one, the evidence based one, and therefore the correct one."

If you people are unable to make a case reasonably and rationally, and without abuse, you will just get us deleted again.

Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:38 PM

Another bloodbath in the Sinai today as Islamic State-affiliated gunmen killed at least 70 Egyptians, mostly soldiers and police.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:14 PM

Which advice, Hi? - Or are you confusing me with Dave? Again?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:59 PM

It would be grand Greg of you toOk your own advice

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:07 PM

See, there you go again, Keith. You people. You are kidding yourselves. You think yours is the only view. Etc. The language of confrontation. That seems to be your goal. Goad people then complain when they react. Not once have I said mine is the only view. In fact I have said very clearly that it is a very complex issue with many facets. Just who are "you people" anyway? If you really do not want this thread closed try listening to other people instead of tarring them all with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:00 PM

Surely there is a component of the West's intervention, because the British & French, post WW1, decided to carve up the middle east (aka Ottoman Empire) by some weird geographical system rather than ethnic and religious lines. Hence Iraq has Sunni, Shia and Kurd elements not to mention Christian and Turkey has a Kurdish separatist movement also.

Lawrence of Arabia advised not to do it the way they did. As if he didn't have a lot of inside knowledge!

One thing you can be sure of is that solutions can be engineered if people are prepared to talk to one another. Shouting isn't communication. And guns shout. And both parties have to have a stake in the result if they are to agree. That and they must have truth in their heads. ISIS has a truth in its head, but who's truth is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:25 PM

"This thread is about the massacre of British and Irish people in Tunisia, "
I most sincerely hope it isn't - it should be about HUMAN BEINGS being massacred - whatever their origins
As far as I know, there has been no suggestion that they were killed because of where they came from.
Sousse s a popular holiday resort for British tourists, but it could just as easily have been Germans or Americans
You bewail the fact that the victims were British and Irish, if you wish - the rest of us will mourn the loss of human life and try to understand why it happened.
You have been given the obvious reasons for the rise in popularity of radically extreme groups - you can blame the internet, if you wish - lets the West off the hook.
" oversimplification of the scourge of terrorism."
Not in the slightest - every action produces a reaction.
Millions of oppressed Arabs tried to better their way of life by protests
The West sat on its hands, did nothing to help and continued to sell weapons and give respectability to the oppressors.
Within a fortnight of the outbreak of the Arab Spring protests, Cameron hosted a massive arms fair in London, it's main targets, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.
It is more than likely that the Homs snipers were trained with ammunition.
Britain sold armoured cars and riot control equipment to the Assad regime and later it was found that Britain supplied chemicals which could well have gone into the weapons used against the Syrian people.
Earlier, some of the electronic equipment sold to the Assads were used in his torture chambers.
All this is custom-made to produce a reaction.
As far as Israel is concerned - there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims scattered all over the globe having been driven out and refused the right to return by the regime there.
THere is no indication that these killings were in any way ritualistic - they were the act of a madman.   
As was proved in former Yugoslavia, in Rwanda, in Israel, in the Sabra/Shatila refugee camp and other such places, religious fanaticism is in no way confined to one belief and it is aworld-wide phenomenon.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:22 PM

You are wrong Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:16 PM

This thread is about the massacre of British and Irish people in Tunisia

No, Keith, your thread is about "those evil, subhuman Muslims" and its about the three-hundredth one on the same topic that you've started.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:16 PM

I think that blaming the west, or for some reason, Israel, is a tragic oversimplification of the scourge of terrorism. There are myriad causes, one of which is Islamic fanatics. The question is how to keep them from killing people. The other question is how to protect people from this lunacy.
Yes, it is a complicated issue but until ordinary people discuss and search for solutions, nothing will change.
   It seems to me that we spend far too much time making excuses for these aberrations than we do in trying to counter them.
    Good people are irrelevant until they act on their disgust at these ritualistic killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:14 PM

If you people think that yours is the only view on why there is an IS

Of COURSE its not the ONLY one, Keith. But it is the fact based one, the evidence based one, and therefore the correct one.

Now yours, on the other hand........

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 01:50 PM

Dave, much has been written about how people are radicalised.
It is not by BBC and mainstream media.
IS are producing slick, high tech recruiting videos.

If you people think that yours is the only view on why there is an IS, you are kidding yourselves.
Perhaps we would be allowed to discuss it, but I doubt it.

This thread is about the massacre of British and Irish people in Tunisia, and the threat of more massacres.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:56 AM

"It is worth a mention that, India's Shia population is the world's second-largest after Iran. Unlike the Arab countries, differences between Shias and Sunnis in India are doctrinal, and mainly in areas such as ritual law, theology and religious organisation.

"To counter the increasing Shia influence, a certain section in the Saudi establishment has been propagating Wahhabism in India," says an MHA official in an interview to Sunday Guardian.

In the last three-four years there has been a steady rise in Wahhabi preachers coming to India to conduct seminars."


Saudi pumping millions to promote Wahhabism in India

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:36 AM

the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet.

No it doesn't. It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? The stuff that comes over the internet can, as you have just discovered, be removed quite easily. Do you think for one minute that if the authorities wanted to block certain messages they could not? Remember the whole concept was based on a defense network originally.

Besides, you asked the question and I provided an answer. I am not saying it is the full picture but it is my opinion. Why ask the question if you are not prepared to listed to potential answers?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:27 AM

"Again, we all disagree with each other "
No - you disagree with the rest of us
"We have been over it all many times before."
We have - and nothing has changed
"the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet."
No, people are drawn into Isis by what is and is nor not happening
What do you suggest - another generation or so of trying to achieve a military solution?
What is happening in Israel at the present time is as much a part of the success Isis is enjoying - grist to their mill
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:19 AM

Again, we all disagree with each other about why there is an IS.
We have been over it all many times before.

Dave, the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet.

How do we prevent that, and how do we prevent the next massacre of innocent people?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:14 AM

"Simbal Khan, a security analyst based in Islamabad, said that Afghanistan was part of the proxy war being waged across the Muslim world between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which has also supported insurgent groups in Afghanistan, including parts of the Taliban."

Saudi Officials Linked to Jihadist Group in WikiLeaks Cables

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:21 AM

"I suggest we stop raking over old arguments."
I'm sure you do - you never did too well on them first time around
"but we did both agree with Obama's plan,"
We never agreed on anything - if intervening in the first place was "fascism" Obama's military intervention after Assad started using chemicals (sold to him by Britain) of his own people, must equally be Fascism.
The fact that it was too little, too late underlines that.
I've said over and over how these people should be stopped - stop backing despotic feudalistic regimes by selling them weapons and address the problems of disaffected Muslims who have turned to Isis out of desperation hearts and minds.
"They are a vicious, brutal reaction to the vicious, brutal interventionist policies the western allies have pursued"
Wish I'd put it like that - this is exactly what and why they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:03 AM

"IS arose out of the Syrian civil war which can not be blamed on the West."

No it didn't. It was conceived of in Camp Bucca, an American prison in Iraq where the US were holding senior al-Qaida figures and other captured militants. It was formed in reaction to the Shia-dominant, US-backed government that had ignored the Sunnis.

Camp Bucca concentrated the most wanted insurgents in one place, in safety, and enabled them to form ISIS, to channel the anger of those who had survived the atrocities of Abu Ghraib and other US torture sites.

ISIS are a monster the west have created. They are a vicious, brutal reaction to the vicious, brutal interventionist policies the western allies have pursued. They are a pigeon coming home to roost, but they are bringing the gore to us instead of hiding it away as the western allies have done.

The west has little or no moral high ground, that was frittered away by Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld and their successors; even at home their own societies are riven by slaughter and and violence, some of their own citizens hellbent on slaughter whilst their fellows look on, too afraid to tackle vested interest or too greedy to surrender their own. We even export this sorry, sordid attitude to others at the end of a gun.

You couldn't engineer a fuck up like this if you tried, it could only be achieved through stupidity, greed, intolerance and plain nastiness, and every side is part of the gorefest.

As for the answer, it'll be lots of dead (mainly poor) people for countless years before we realise we were so distracted by our petty squabbles, boundless capacity for greed and adherence to out-of-date, divisive religions that we have trashed the planet and it's too late do a thing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:47 AM

One partial solution is for Package Tour operators to issue British holidaymakers with automatic weapons
on arrival in foreign hot spots.
Something small and effective like an Uzi which can be kept handy in the beach bag along with all the other usual sun bathing essentials.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:09 AM

The situation in the Middle East is very complex, and there are no easy answers. No doubt, much of the problem had its origin in European and American imperialism of the 19th Century, and European and American warfare in the 20th.

You're forgetting ham-fisted and counterproductive U.S. intervention in the 21st Century, Joe, as well as 21st Century Israeli imperialism.

IS arose out of the Syrian civil war which can not be blamed on the West.

No Keith, it arose primarly thanks to George W. Bush, "Mad-Dog" Wolfowitz & Dick Cheney and their bogus Iraq war.

I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions.

Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:05 AM

Now, how should we stop their rampage and stop the enticing intelligent kids from respectable families to go and join them?


I have already suggested that cutting off their free publicity may go a long way to stopping their 'rampage'. Trouble is the ones giving them publicity are probably the ones helping to fund it.

As to stopping them enticing intelligent kids from respectable families - It cannot be done because such kids will always rebel. No publicity for the terrorists will move the focus of these rebels to something else as well. Hopefully something more peaceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:56 AM

Your last statement "I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions" is historically inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:54 AM

OK Jim.
We disagree on why there is an IS, but we did both agree with Obama's plan, and we were the only ones here who did.

- "mostly engaged with killing Shia Muslims" - are you joking?

No.
They have killed many more Muslims than non-Muslims.
Read that Guardian piece, or any piece about who are IS's victims.

Now, how should we stop their rampage and stop the enticing intelligent kids from respectable families to go and join them?

My suggestion was that the West overode the Russian/Chinese veto as a humanitarian measure to stop the likes of Homs - someone (can't remember who!) described that as "fascism".

No-one did Jim.

I suggest we stop raking over old arguments.
I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:09 AM

"Jim wanted Britain and the West to send troops into Syria from the start."
My suggestion was that the West overode the Russian/Chinese veto as a humanitarian measure to stop the likes of Homs - someone (can't remember who!) described that as "fascism".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:55 AM

"Assad was no better or worse than other Arab dictators."
Yes he was - and why redistrict it to "Arabs" - the West has backed and sold weapons to war criminals of all shapes and sizes - the British Trades Minister has been more than happy to admit as much.
Far from 'not intervening', we actually backed Libyan State terrorism and were happily training Qaddafi's son to take over so that the dynasty could continue.
Isis stepped into the gap left by the west - "mostly engaged with killing Shia Muslims" - are you joking?
Isis is a product of the West's predatory policies and inhuman indifference.
"We will never agree on the history, so let's consider what to do in the future."
We certainly won't while one of us refuses to address it and takes sides.
There is little more to do oter than wring handkerchiefs to catch the crocodile tears unless we recognise that what is happening is happening directly because of hat out governments are doing in our - you shed your tears - we'll try to make sense of the whys and wherefores
"but had Jim wanted Britain and the West to send troops into Syria from the start"
And please don't distort my position by reducing it to "sending troops"
My argument was for a whole tranche of actions, including boycotting, the seizing of property, ostracisation of a family that valued Britis patronage - none of which happened.
I can't remember ever supporting you on anything - your views come with too much of a not-very-well hidden agenda and are seldom what they seem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:37 AM

Look at who is funding the terrorists and ask what it is that they are hoping to accomplish.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:34 AM

Mick, Jim and I did both support Obama's plan for attacks on Assad after his chemical attacks, but had Jim wanted Britain and the West to send troops into Syria from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:25 AM

Why are Arab states, who always object to Western interference, happy to let US and UK fly most of the airstrikes against ISIS.


Errrr. You are in a dispute with your neighbour. You are given the option of either going punching him on the nose or getting Jim, who's interference you always object to, to do it for you. Which do you chose?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:11 AM

Keith thinks that the Syrian civil war, out of which the IS group arose , was an internal Syrian affair and IS can't therefore be blamed on the West . Jim likewise thinks that the West didn't intervene in Syria . Isn't there some basis for agreement there, lads in that you both think that ISIS grew under conditions of the West's failure to intervene in Syria?

When I heard David Cameron say that Britain was in a state of "shock and grief " after the Tunisia beach killings, I immediately thought of George Bush's "shock and awe" doctrine. Sure enough, there is a linguistic connection between the words "awe" and "grief" .The two words are "distant relations" according to the online etymology dictionary .

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 06:57 AM

Assad was no better or worse than other Arab dictators.

We did intervene in Libya, we did not in Syria.
The outcome was the same. Islamists exploit the weakened state.

IS is mostly engaged with killing Shia Muslims.
That war has been going on for centuries.

We will never agree on the history, so let's consider what to do in the future.


Why are Arab states, who always object to Western interference, happy to let US and UK fly most of the airstrikes against ISIS.

Guardian 22 hours ago,

"For it is Muslims who are the biggest victims of Isis. They fight the jihadists in Syria, Iraq and Libya, and it is they who hourly die brutal deaths at the hands of Isis. The soul-searching of Muslims in the UK and beyond is now at fever pitch – the question they ask constantly is: what more can they do?"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/30/islam-leaders-muslims-victims-crimes-uk

The writer does not address the issue of the estimated 700 UK Muslims who have gone to fight FOR IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 06:13 AM

"IS arose out of the Syrian civil war which can not be blamed on the West."
ISIS arose out of the Arab Spring, and the failure to act on what was happening in Syria, particularly in Homs, it was very much the fault of The West, and the U.N.
Syria started as a protest over what had been happening there for decades - the west was fully aware of the crimes of the regime, yet the West said or did nothing to prevent it - in fact, the Assad regime was considered one o their greatest allies.
Russia and China vetoed action on Syria, but, had there been oil involved in the Syrian situation, those vetoes would nnot have been worth squat - plenty of past examples to go by.
Not only did the West fail to act, but they continued supporting the regimes being protested against, both politically and in selling them arms.
The ongoing problem of U.N. vetoes is that they have been used far too many times to protect War Criminals and human rights abusers - the U.S. is one of, if not the, greatest culprits - a human rights abuser itself, it has continually fueled an incendiary situation in the Middle East with its blanket support for one of the aggressors.
Discussions such as this one become equally null and void when participants condemn one side while excusing the other.
I have little doubt that this is what will happen here - the green shoots of appeasement are already beginning to show.
All acts of terrorism, human rights abuses, injustices, massacres... carried out in the name of one god or one religion or another are intrinsically evil - there are no sliding scales to claim that one evil isn't as great as the other, or that, it's not evil because everybody soes it.
To take sides is to become part of that evil
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:29 AM

They are just articles indicating the complexity of the situation. Sorry if they do not fit in with your opinions. And you are STILL on about the moderation policy when it has been specifically stated that you should not. Give it a rest.