BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:24 AM

Maybe not Al-Qaeda as such, but people very closely allied and associated with them. Two that immediately spring to mind are Zarqawi (who ultimately formed Al-Qaeda-In-Iraq) and Mullah Krekar whose group Ansar al-Islam, was "hosted" by Saddam Hussein to foment trouble in the Kurdish North.

In August 2002, while Krekar was in Iraq, the Norwegian government revoked his refugee status on the grounds that he had traveled back to his homeland and spent long periods there directing terrorist activities.

In the summer of 2002, Zarqawi settled in northern Iraq, where he joined the Islamist Ansar al-Islam group that fought against the Kurdish-nationalist forces in the region. Before the invasion of Iraq in March 2003, Zarqawi met with Bin Laden's military chief, Saif al-Adel (Muhammad Ibrahim Makawi) in Iraq, who asked him to coordinate the entry of al-Qaeda operatives into Iraq through Syria. Zarqawi readily agreed and by the fall of 2003 a steady flow of Arab Islamists were infiltrating Iraq via Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:58 PM

There were no al-qeada in Iraq before Bush ordered up the invasion...

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:11 PM

ya hoo mission accomplished.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:52 AM

Al-Qaida leader captured in western Iraq
2010-04-18

RAMADI, Iraq, April 18 (Xinhua) -- Iraqi security forces captured an al-Qaida leader on Sunday in a raid on an insurgent safe house in the country's western province of Anbar, a provincial police source said.

Mohammed Abed, a leader of al-Qaida militants in Anbar, was captured after being wounded during the raid in the city of Rawa, some 280 km northwest of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on condition of anonymity.

Based on intelligence reports, a force from Anbar police command raided the house in Rawa in an attempt to arrest Abed who traded fire with the attacking force, wounding two policemen, the source said.

The police also seized 34 blasting caps which can be used in detonating explosive-belts, roadside bombs and car bombs, the source added.

Anbar province has seen deadly attacks in recent months, although it has been relatively calm in the past few years after Sunni tribes and anti-U.S. insurgent groups turned to cooperate with the U.S. troops and Iraqi security forces against al-Qaida in Iraq network.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 07:51 AM

Only if the cloud of ash from the volcano halts air traffic all over the world and that is not likely

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 04:56 PM

I understand the US is geared up to get Afghanistan surge men, equipment and supplies in place in a limited amount of time during the coming summer and fall. They apparently have a tall order to fill if the surge is to be effective.

The volcanic eruption in Iceland may play in favour of the Afghans.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:54 PM

Amos: "You guys really need to say which surge you are talking about."

When this thread was started there was only one surge.

Bobert: "I would doubt that if you were to ask a 100 people"

You are welcome to your doubts and assumptions and opinions but they do not constitute facts to anybody but you.

I realize that a question such as this is largely a matter of opinion so I have posted here several instances of important people that said the surge worked but you always want to divert the subject into another direction.

Does your opinion matter more than them. Obama can do no wrong in your eyes but when you and he conflict on something you immediately draw the discussion elsewhere rather than having to admit either you or he is wrong.

The only people left that argue against the success of the surge are the ones that so vehemently were against the surge. Then the more it appeared that it might succeed the nastier and more strident they would get. Now all they can claim is the Awakening did it.

Would there have been an awakening without the surge and if so would it have succeeded without the surge?

You can call me mental or stupid or whatever you want but that does not enhance your credibility. Instead, it weakens it.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:54 AM

The Afghan "surge" Amos has as yet hardly commenced, the troops assigned in December last year will not all be in place for about another six to eight weeks.

My son who is now out there on his fourth tour tells me that they are still in the process of building up base facilities to receive them.

At no time during the entire time the Soviets were in the country did the "Mujahideen" ever consider their war as being in a "stalemate" condition. At no time did they EVER consider talks or a compromise with the Soviet invaders. The leader of the Taleban, Mullah Mohammed Omar, has been stating that the fighting has been at a stalemate since 2008 and there have been numerous contacts with the various Taleban groups for years.

In the spring and summer of 2006 the "Afghan Taleban" swore that they would destroy ISAF in Helmand Province. This was the Taleban who had rested and re-organised over the border in Pakistan in the three years previous. They were then at their strongest and most capable and they only faced 680 combat troops out of a total ISAF force of 3,300. They failed to destroy, or even discourage ISAF in 2006, so how on earth do they think they are going to succeed against 30,000 ISAF Troops plus an equal number of ANA forces. Security, employment and education will defeat the Taleban in both Helmand and Kandahar, the international community and the Afghan Government can offer the people of those Provinces all three, the Taleban on the other hand can only offer those people a continuation of what they have had to endure for the past thirty years.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 09:31 PM

You guys really need to say which surge you are talking about.

The surge in Iraq was coincident with many other factors which contributed to the reduction of hostilities, but the Bush PR machine tried to cover itself with glory despite that.

The Afghan surge has not succeeded yet.


A

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 09:03 PM

No, Sawz... Just the things I know about... As fir "The Surge" I would doubt that if you were to ask a 100 people what the tactical components of it were that you'd find 5 who had any idea other than the PR on it which was merely "more boots on the ground"... That was a very simplistic answer then and it's no less a simplistic asnwer now...

Yeah, strings... Ike warned US about what we now have... He warned US that the military/industrial complex, if left unchecked, would damage our country and it's future... Now we're in the midst of it and guess what??? The very people who are pissed off about their taxes being too high are the ones who are always up for a new, shiney war??? Go figure???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:11 PM

The goal here is perpetual war. The Afghan war is the longest in history for the US and it isn't over yet. Why is that? What's so great about the "surge"? What happened with the surge is that it prolonged the war.

There are those who want and like war.

60 cents of your tax dollar goes to support the Iraq and Afghan war.

Don't look under the curtain.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 09:40 AM

"you self-proclaimed expert on everything."

Moi? You seem to have a grudge because the surge, according to several prominent people. worked. I merely posted what Bill Clinton said.

You can post anything you want.

You might want to tell us what would have happened without the surge.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 07:30 AM

The funny thing about ass-hats is that they are not content to just reveal themselves in current threads so they revisit old ones to further reveal themselves...

The must think that folks here are the same moron in the street who is too busy bustin' his butt making a living to undertand what the components of "The Surge" were... Problem for the ass-hats is that folks here ***are*** paying attention...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 07:00 AM

Whats the difference between an Ass hat and a Jar head? ...

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 02:31 AM

TIA - the asshats don't actually CONTROL the rum, although they think they do, and they try damn hard as well... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 01:38 AM

Go Google "Sunni Awakening" you self-proclaimed expert on everything.

Good God. Now I remember why I don't come here much anymore. There are lots of good thoughtful folks, plus the the four- or five-member asshat club.

Sigh.

Go ahead, delete the post. I won't even notice....

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 11:57 PM

Bill Clinton on NPR

....Clinton said that the general's much-discussed wish for more troops is based in part on the success of the "surge" in Iraq.

"But let's remember why the Iraqi surge worked," Clinton told Linda, for a story due to air on tomorrow's Morning Edition. "It worked because the United States and our allies performed well -- but they performed well in partnership with the Anbar arising ... with the Sunni Iraqis being sick and tired of what al-Qaida in Iraq did and willing to put their own necks on the line."....

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:41 AM

Harry Reid 4/19/07 press conference:
"this war is lost and that the surge is not accomplishing anything"

Harry Reid on PBS 12/21/07:
"The president said, "Let's send some more troops over there, and that will give the Iraqis the time to take care of themselves." We sent other troops over there, and there are a lot of reasons the surge certainly hasn't hurt. It's helped. I recognize that."

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:06 AM

Amos:

When was Guantanamo closed? When did Obama follow through on his big chest beating promise?

McCain was 100% correct that the follow-through should have been thought through first.

Why do you think I am bitter and angry? You sound like an Obama brown shirt or maybe even a Chavez red shirt, willing to take a bullet for the chief no matter how bad he fucks up.

The locals did have a lot to do with the surge being a success but how does that correct Obama's mistake and allow him to take credit for some one else's plan that he opposed?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:02 PM

My Sawz, you sound so bitter and angry.

Closing Guantanamo was a right action, but you are absolutely 100% correct that the follow-through should have been thought through first.

As for the Surge, don't get too stuck on the Right Wing Mythology; remember that the locals had a LOT to do with the changes that occurred in Iraq at the same time.

A

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:49 PM

People change history to cover up for their fuckups.

Also known as CYA.

You use Bush who did not change his mind as a smoke screen to cover for a whiney, weazely, flipflopper who tries to claim credit for what Bush did by claiming he said something different from what he actually said.

Bush was right about the surge and Obama was flat ass wrong but he is too arrogant to admit it.

Remember when Obama was chest beating about Guantanamo? Executive order signed January 22, 2009 to close Guantanamo within a year? Sorta over due now isn't it?

McCain said he thinks the new president may have been hasty in the decision and should have taken the time to consider everything associated with closing the camp before forcing himself into a timetable.

Specifically, McCain said he thought Obama needed to consider what would happen to the prisoners held at Guantanamo before ordering the facility to be closed.

"So, the easy part, in all due respect, is to say we're going to close Guantanamo," McCain said. "Then I think I would have said where they were going to be taken. Because you're going to run into a NIMBY [not in my backyard] problem here in the United States of America."

Obama was flat ass wrong and McCain was right.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:41 PM

Well Amos I think that General David Petraeus must absolutely silently kill himself with inner laughter everytime he meets Joe "wrong-again" Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:31 PM

Noting that people change their opinions as events unfold, none of what you cite is a patch on the towering deceptions of such statements as "I'm a uniter, not a divider" by the man who produced the biggest schism in the national psyche since the Civil War...



A

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:25 PM

How History is rewritten:

Obama January 2007
We cannot impose a military solution on what has effectively become a civil war. And until we acknowledge that reality, uh, we can send 15,000 more troops; 20,000 more troops; 30,000 more troops. Uh, I don't know any, uh, expert on the region or any military officer that I've spoken to, uh, privately that believes that that is gonna make a substantial difference on the situation on the ground.

Obama September 13, 2007:
After putting an additional 30,000 troops in, far longer & more troops than the president had initially said, we have gone from a horrendous situation of violence in Iraq to the same intolerable levels of violence that we had back in June of 2006. So, essentially, after all this we're back where we were 15 months ago. And what has not happened is any movement with respect to the sort of political accommodations among the various factions, the Shia, the Sunni, and Kurds that were the rationale for surge and that ultimately is going to be what stabilizes Iraq. So, I think it is fair to say that the president has simply tried to gain another six months to continue on the same course that he's been on for several years now. It is a course that will not succeed. It is a course that is exacting an enormous toll on the American people & our troops.

July 2008
Barack Obama's campaign scrubbed his presidential Web site over the weekend to remove criticism of the U.S. troop "surge" in Iraq, the Daily News has learned.

The presumed Democratic nominee replaced his Iraq issue Web page, which had described the surge as a "problem" that had barely reduced violence.

Obama January 5, 2008:
I had no doubt, and I said when I opposed the surge, that given how wonderfully our troops perform, if we place 30,000 more troops in there, then we would see an improvement in the security situation and we would see a reduction in the violence.


Biden February 11 2010
"this could be one of the great achievements of this administration."

Reporter to Robert Gibbs February   2010
Robert, the Vice President last night said that Iraq could end up being one of the President's great achievements. Given that the Vice President was in favor of a partial partition of the country and the President opposed the surge that helped stabilize it, how is that one of the President's great achievements?

Gibbs:
Well, putting what was broken back together and getting our troops home, which we intend to do in August of this year.Obama press secretary robert Gibbs

Reporter:
But the Status of Forces Agreement to bring troops home was signed before the President took office.

GIBBS
Something that -- something that I think the political pressure that the President, as a then-candidate, helped to bring about.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:20 PM

Sawz:

This is relevant to his influence in founding a democratic republic...how?


A

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM

"Jefferson made clear that he believed that blacks were inferior to whites."

I did what you asked and according to his writings, your hero Jefferson was a racist and a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:32 AM

Good work, Sawz... You got an stick a *gold start* on yer "I-learnt-up-somthin'-new" chart, however...

...we weren't excatly talkin' about Tom's views on black folks or slavery but his views on, ahhhhhhhh, democracy...

So, while ya' get some credit for trying to do yer homework, ya done the wrong assignment??? I just don't know what we are gonna do with you, son???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:02 AM

"it wouldn't hurt you at all to revisit some of Thomas Jefferson's writings if you think what we have is real democracy"

Well I took your advice Bobert and I learned something:

Thomas Jefferson on the Af****n Race

To our reproach it must be said, that though for a century and a half we have had under our eyes the races of black and of red men, they have never yet been viewed by us as subjects of natural history. I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind. It is not against experience to suppose, that different species of the same genus, or varieties of the same species, may possess different qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:55 AM

Elections signal progress in Iraq

The results of Sunday's parliamentary elections in Iraq are important. As the votes are being tallied, at stake is what kind of character the country's fledgling democracy will assume or, indeed, whether that democracy will endure or give way to a new religious and sectarian dictatorship.

Just as important as the election results is the fact that, once again, Iraqis voted in large numbers, defying threats and acts of violence to participate in their nation's open and competitive electoral process. At least 38 people were killed in Baghdad, the New York Times reported.

Even so, voter turnout was heavy. Fewer ballots were cast Sunday than in the first post-Saddam parliamentary elections held in 2005. Still, a healthy 62 percent of eligible voters went to the polls. This time, there was intense politicking for votes of the majority Shiite population. And, critically, members of the Sunni minority that largely boycotted the 2005 elections were active participants in this round of balloting.

That's a positive sign for the future of Iraq. The more people who are committed to resolving ethnic and religious conflicts through the political process, the less acceptable violence and intimidation will become.

A secure and stable Iraq is still far from being a certainty. What security and stability that does exist was purchased at great price by the United States, which has lost more than 4,300 military personnel over the course of the seven-year conflict.

Sunday's election was a milestone of progress for Iraq. It represents another sign that democracy is taking root in the country.

It also suggests that the ongoing drawdown of American forces, with the departure of combat troops scheduled for the end of August, is on course and that the future of Iraq is increasingly in Iraqi hands — as it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:03 PM

WOW!!!

I'm not sure how this occured but I go off to to a few things and comne back here and there is a new "window" open at the bottom of my computer screen entitled "Mudcat Cafe' messa..." and it is has nuthin but Sawz 3:25 post asking what LH meant by his "jarhead Canadians"...

Never had anything like that happen and maybe someone more familiar with in the ins and outs knows but no matter...

What LH is talking about is excatly what I just posted about... I mean, it's like one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter... So what LH is sayin' is that to folks who are being shot at by a Canadian "jarhead" (slang for marine) that the jarhead is the percieved terrorist... Everything is relative dependin' on who happens to be the shooter and the shootee...

Still not too sure how that thing happened with a seperate window with just that post... Maybe soemthin' new, I donno... Don't have time to figure the ins & outs of computers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:51 PM

The last war that was actually won was WW II... Since then, even the '67 June War, have been winnerless wars... They have just conusmed alot of the world's human and natural resources...

And as for the term "terrorist"??? This ain't nuthin' but a PR term that plays well before a control group... Not much different than selling toothpaste ot soap powder...

I mean, let's get real... If it's 2003 and yer living in Baghdad and there are bombs falling all arounf you who is "the terrorist"???

No, I'm not for any terrorists, be they ours, theirs, or whomevers... War is terribly fucked up and those who order it up are always the ones who refuse to fight in them... Always!!! Goes back to Biblical times... Jesus talks about it in Mathew... Calls the folks who order up the wars hypocrits... Right here in the Bible...

No matter... No I'm not for the Taliban and LH ain't for the Taliban and Amos ain't for the Taliban... What I have pointed out isd tyhe the Taliban is alot closer in philosophy to the Christain Right than it is folks on the left, be they Christain or not... The Taliban wants to impose its conservative avlues on everyone... Sound familiar... They would be the first to assisinate an abortion doctor... Heck, they have been known to kill women for very minor things that the men think is offensive... These folks are alot like our Tea Baggers... Very intolerant and very ignorant... Just liike the Tea Baggers... Like the right wing... Not too enlightened, thse folks... Purdy danged backwards... Sound familiar???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:25 PM

So WTF does all that mean LH? Jar head Canadians are terrorists?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:14 AM

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/world/8-weeks-on-Nato-admits.6102256.jp

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:03 AM

You're quite right that your jarhead terrorists aren't winning. But they haven't realized it yet. That's why they are still occupying Afghanistan and Iraq. They can't win, because final victory there is impossible. They can win many individual battles, though, and I expect they'll win a great many...just like they did back in Vietnam.

You can do that when you have the world's largest military machine at your disposal.

One day you may get to work for them yourself, Sawzaw, turn me and Amos and various others here in as "subversives", and get yourself a nice medal to show the grandkids.

Hail to the Chief, old chap.

Al Qaeda is nothing. They barely even exist. Your enemies are the people who are fighting to get foreign troops out of their country, and you will never see the end of them.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 12:52 AM

I can see LH and Amos are heartbroken because the terrorist they have been rooting for didn't win. Sorry guys.

Iraq vote a setback for Al-Qaeda
Mar 9, 2010 AFP
BAGHDAD - AL-QAEDA in Iraq suffered a major blow after Sunni voters largely ignored its death threats and turned out in force to cast their ballots in a crucial weekend general election, observers said.

Electoral authorities have put the final turnout in Sunday's vote at 62.4 per cent, and Sunni participation was seen as a defining aspect of the ballot, especially in traditional Al-Qaeda strongholds.

In the run-up to the vote, the Islamic state of Iraq (ISI), the Qaeda front in the country, threatened on a jihadist website to kill all Iraqis, and especially Sunnis, who went to the polls.

'The Islamic state declares... a curfew on election day... throughout Iraq and especially in Sunni areas,' US monitors Site quoted ISI as saying in an Internet posting.

The Qaeda front warned that anyone who defies the curfew will 'unfortunately expose himself to the anger of Allah and then to all kinds of weapons of the mujahedeen.' As polling centres opened in Baghdad early on Sunday morning, the capital came under a hail of bomb, mortar and rocket attacks that killed 38 people.

But Sunni Arabs, who had massively boycotted the last polls in 2005, were undeterred, with 70 per cent of the electorate voting in Diyala and Salaheddin provinces, 61 per cent in Anbar and 67 per cent in Nineveh. -- AFP

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 12:23 AM

So, Sawz--you're fully behind the glorification of war? Let's go in there blazing and take them bastids out, eh?

'Course, there will always be a little collateral damage, but, hey, you can't make an omelette...ya know what I mean, man?

Seems pretty clear you're all for it, and know deep in your heart that it--the great bloodbath of man's mutual destruction--will always be there for you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 12:01 AM

They (the soldiers in the war zones) are not there for you.

They're there for a bunch of banks and big oil companies and military contractors. They're being used, they don't realize they're being used, and they are dying for nothing.

And that is the case in most wars, so it's really nothing new. The only soldier who fights for something worthwhile in a war is the one who defends his own home ground and the land he was born on against an occupying foreign invader.

Avatar should have won best picture this year. The reason it didn't was because the fascists who run the military-industrial system you cheerlead for simply couldn't bear to have a movie win which is directly opposed philosophically to the fascist empire building your terrorist armed forces do around the world...so they pulled some strings here and there to make sure.

No, they had to have a film win that glorifies your terrorist armed forces...and that was "The Hurt Locker". They desperately want you to keep believing the myths they have told you all your life.

You don't get it. I don't expect you to.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 11:44 PM

And you are telling us we need to buy guns to blow away the tebaggers before they blow us away, right Bobert?

Them Al Quaeda guys and Taliban guys are against the US war just like you Bobert. They ain't thrown in the towel and neither have you. You root for them to kill Americans and hope they win so you can egotistically say you were right.

Iraq War Drama 'The Hurt Locker' wins six Oscars, including history making best picture and best director for director Kathryn Bigelow

Kathryn Bigelow dedicated her Best Director award to "the women and men in the military who risk their lives on a daily basis in Iraq and Afghanistan and around the world." When she came back to receive a second Oscar statuette for co-producing the year's Best Picture winner she once again made a dedication "to men and women all over the world who wear a uniform, but even not just the military HazMat, emergency, firemen. They're there for us and we're there for them."

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM

The terrorist ain't thrown in the towel yet, Sawz... Might of fact, they are doing quite nicely with their newest chapter, the Tea Party... You are a little quick to rush to judgement... No "Mission Accomplished" banners needed yet...

And let's keep in mind that the terrorists aren't exactly lefties... They are righties.... So I don't see why you think I want the righties to win... If anyone would want them to win I would think it would be you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

Of course the Iraqis are tenacious people. They have no choice. Any populace becomes tenacious under those kind of circumstances that Iraqis have faced. People tend to rise to the challenge offered.

This can be seen in war or any other extreme situation.

Multi-party elections do not a democracy make...although they do make the outer appearance of a democracy.

You don't have a real democracy until a government actually represents and responds to the genuine interests of its general populace.

Sadly, I know of no place where there is a real democracy right now. No place anywhere in the world. There are just a whole bunch of places maintaining the superficial appearance of a real democracy, but in every case what they really are is: rule by an elite and wealthy few, for the benefit of an elite and wealthy few, over the many who voted them in because they were offered no one else to cast a vote for!!!!

View this video:

Mouseland

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 11:56 PM

Iraqis may prove war was a mistake worth making
March 8, 2010

An Iraqi man places his votes in the ballot box at a polling site in Tikrit, Iraq on Sunday, March 7, 2010 during the country's much-anticipated parliamentary elections. (AP Photo/ Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Justin Merriman)

The Iraqi people have proven to be a tenacious bunch.

Our forefathers had to wait 12 years after the Declaration of Independence to have their first direct congressional elections. The Iraqis have now completed their second legislative elections in just seven years.

It would not have been possible without the unstinting sacrifices of the American military and the support of the citizens of the United States. But neither would it have been possible without the sheer cussedness of the Iraqis.

Iranian meddlers and al Qaeda terrorists tried to delegitimize the 2005 elections by suppressing participation through threats and violence, but almost 80 percent of the electorate turned out. By the time this year's elections came around, Iranian-backed opposition leader Muqtada al-Sadr told his Shiite followers to go vote and not get left out of the new government.

There were more than two dozen Iraqis killed in Election Day attacks, but after the past seven years, it takes a lot to rattle these people.

Turnout estimates will take time and the ruling parliamentary coalition is still shaping up, but the signs are that Iraqis voted in large numbers and that the new government will have a broader political base than the current one -- maybe no big deal by American standards, but quite a feat for the first Arab democracy.

America's founders fought an eight-year war that killed 25,000 of their countrymen -- 1 percent of the total population of our fledgling republic -- in order to be free.

Iraq has seen 9,400 men in uniform killed since the U.S. toppled Saddam Hussein's regime. That's not even half of a 10th of a percent of the nation's population of almost 24 million.

That's because 4,379 American troops were killed and 31,693 more were wounded trying to rescue Iraq.

But it's also because the civilian population of Iraq has absorbed so much of the blow. Estimating the number of Iraqi civilians killed by terrorists is difficult, but there is broad consensus that more than 100,000 Iraqis have been killed during the post-invasion insurgency.

American history has no parallel to that kind of civilian sacrifice.

Baghdad alone lost almost 30,000 of its 6.5 million civilian residents in the first three years of the allied occupation. Losing so many people so fast in a city the same size as the Dallas metro area means that every family paid part of the human price.

As for the financial price, we've footed the tab.

We have spent $700 billion on our Iraq democracy project -- as much as the Bush-Obama bailout package.

We fought the entire Second World War and funded the Marshall Plan at a cost, in 2010 dollars, of about $3 trillion. So at least on a per-person-liberated basis, Iraq has been our most expensive nation-building project ever: about $30,000 per Iraqi.

We have spent more than $257 billion blowing up and rebuilding Afghanistan -- about $22,000 per Afghan -- and the administration will have to spend at least an additional $100 billion on the second Obama surge.

There are half as many Afghans as Iraqis, but they are spread out over a country that is 50 percent larger and has neither a middle class nor a history of central government. President Obama may yet take the title of most ambitious nation builder away from George W. Bush.....

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 01:44 AM

"real democracy" That's when Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.

Bobert is just upset cause the terrorists didn't win.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:08 PM

Yeah, Royston, we don't want no trigger-happy-blind-Dick fightin' no wars fir US... Bad enough that he bullied George into invadin' Iraq... Might of fact, I think blind-Dick oughtta just be wheeled into a nursing home where he can't hurt anyone else...

(He might stab a nurse with a dinner fork, Boberdz...)

Oh yeah... Be sure that he gets ***THE*** pink pill (wink, wink...)

Bye, Dick...

BTW, ya' all... All that "The Surge" was was a "surge" of our tax dollars flyin' outta the treasury to pay Sunnis not to shoot at US??? Go figure??? And so the Tea Party folks think it was like, what??? I million GIs comin' over the hill with M-16's a'blazin' like from some 50s war movie??? Hmmmmm??? Me thinks there is merit to the theory that our forefathers did have sex with buffalo...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:35 PM

"Word on the street is that Dick Cheney is down to his last $19.5M so maybe we should just invade Canada for him???"

You'd better do it for him - with his aim he would probably sink commercial traffic on the great lakes before conquering Minnesota!

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 05:41 PM

"
"Amos, can you explain to us exactly how today Al-Qaeda and the Taleban in Afghanistan and Pakistan are a threat to the United States of America? It is also abundantly clear that Iraq has posed no threat to the United States of America since March 2003."

I don't believe it! Something Teribus and I can agree on.

None of these organizations and religious groups are a threat to the U.S. Iraq has
never posed a threat to the US even before March of 2003. Al-Qaeda is another name
for "communist" which was the key that Joe McCarthy turned in the U.S. Fifties.
The Taleban and Al Qaeda are not the same.

What poses a real threat to the U.S. is the hysteria and warmongering that is going on
with crazy Tea Partiers and members of the U.S. Senate and Congress who are making political capital out of war. Also, the corporations such as Blackwater and so many others who thrive on bloodshed and bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM

Word on the street is that Dick Cheney is down to his last $19.5M so maybe we should just invade Canada for him??? I mean, he will clean up with the stock options he has with Halliburton and, of course, Halliburton is the only corpoartion in the universe that knows how to drive trucks, build new schools and cook meals so they will get a fat no-bid contract and we won't have to worry about poor ol' Dick in the bread lines...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 02:07 PM

So when can we get all of our people (including private contractors) out of there? If Iraq is such a smashing success, we are no longer needed there.

I'd like to hear a response from the average Iraqi in the street to what is said in Sawzaw's article.

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 01:56 PM

Bobert: I mean, what would you know about real democracy, Sawz??? Me thinks it wouldn't hurt you at all to revisit some of Thomas Jefferson's writings if you think what we have is real democracy... It's far from that...

Quoted for the truth: and to think what potential the declaration of independence had.

As a great thinker once said "The last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams".

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

Yeah....(Ha! Ha!)...that's what I'm saying. Save us from our free health coverage and other horrible stuff like that. I'd much rather be presently owing the medical people here $800,000 for my Dad's fatal liver illness than being out of debt, because they treated him at no charge. How dare they not charge me the full fee!???

I'd also love to see our cities bombed and wrecked, and American tanks and troops all over the place here, shooting down those socialist fools who would resist and showing us a better way to live.

What's holding you back? Don't you like us as much as you do those lucky, lucky people in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: War is over. The surge has succeeded!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 11:19 AM

"Real Democracy"???

Hahahahahahaha...

I mean, what would you know about real democracy, Sawz??? Me thinks it wouldn't hurt you at all to revisit some of Thomas Jefferson's writings if you think what we have is real democracy... It's far from that...

B~