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Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Fred McCormick Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:11 PM Ollie, you've about nailed it. I just wish that serious contributors to what are now four Mudcat antifascist threads, would stop rising to the bait. Ignore the begrudgers and they'll go away. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:00 PM "Amen to that, except that most of the people causing the arguments on Mudcat are not FAF and have no interest in pursuing FAF ends. They are BNP trolls" - Fred McCormick Fred, there either that or people whose interest in everyday life extends only to what the next fashion trend will be, when the next "big" rock concert will be and where it'll be. and I came across this quote from the American writer Dwight MacDonald,in his book On Movies, who was referring to the late film director Otto Preminger, but it works for certain contributors to this thread...here goes " No one is more skilled at giving the appearance of dealing with large controversial themes in a bold way without making the tactical error of actually doing so." Stand and Be Counted Olivia Beak (Ms) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Fred McCormick Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:42 PM Derek Schofield:- "here's an idea ... let's stop fighting each other, and start fighting fascism. This is just dstracting us from FaF's purpose." Amen to that, except that most of the people causing the arguments on Mudcat are not FAF and have no interest in pursuing FAF ends. They are BNP trolls, who are simply seeking to sew the seeds of confusion. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:06 PM "Lest we forget who we are talking about." - Jim Carroll speak for yourself, I don't forget for one nano-second who I'm dealing with. "A few old hippies in FaF" - Paco Rabanne this from someone naming themselves for some fashionista *LOL* Honestly you coundn't possibly make this stuff up.... (Discover all about Paco Rabanne: perfumes (One Million, Black XS, XS, Ultraviolet, Paco Rabanne for men), accessories (watches and eyewear) and fashion *LOL* Paco Rabanne |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: dj bass Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:40 AM I WAS at the FaF event. As I stated on another thread, it was a highlight of the week for me (and I was a Ham Evening ST holder so I saw some "headline" acts). Before he sang the first song, Steve Knightley clearly stated what the issue was and his interest in taking part in the launch. Perhaps Mr Harris arrived late as well as left early. IMHO, the ratio of talk to performance was fine. I would not have wanted a long speech at the start, but then I arrived early and picked up the explanatory leaflet, badges and stickers. I'd have liked Jim Moray to "claim" Sweet England for the good guys, which I think would have been entirely appropriate in the circumstances, but other than that I loved the content. As a general rule, I prefer to state what I am for, rather than what I am against, but I am wearing my FaF badge with pride. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:35 AM here's an idea ... let's stop fighting each other, and start fighting fascism. This is just dstracting us from FaF's purpose. Derek |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Surreysinger Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:17 AM Actually Vermin,dear chap - I think that should be tee-shirts in the plural. I have photos of two different types. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Old Vermin Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:12 AM What was that about ageing hippies? Best sort, really. Especially considering the alternative, When's the FAF website going to show the T-shirt? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:47 AM Lest we forget who we are talking about - here are a couple of selections from Martin Walker's history 'The National Front - the fore-runner to the BNP before they went 'respectable'. Jim Carroll The most enjoyable part of the camp was the opportunity to get away from the cosmopolitanism of the cities and to live in the manner of our forefolk amidst the beauties of our own Northland, England. None will forget the comradeship round the campfire, with songs of our race and nation upon our lip and tankards of English ale in our hands. We are the front fighters of the BNP, True to our soil and people we will be. Red Front and Jewry will finally fall; Our race and nation will smash them all. Policy statements: Send those coloured immigrants already here back to their homelands. Impeach the Tory Cabinet and the 1945-50 Labour Cabinet for their complicity in the black invasion and hold a trial of all those journalists who have aided and abetted them. At the age 18, the half-caste would be given free passage to the country of its choice or he or she would be allowed to remain in Britain, enjoying all rights and privileges, including marriage, except for the fact that he or she would be legally enforced to undertake sterilization, under correct medical supervision. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Fred McCormick Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:14 AM This is crazy. Yes by all means join a political party, vote anti-BNP, campaign against them or whatever. But doing things in other directions doesn't negate the need to confront the BNP over their attempts to expropriate our traditional culture. And joining FAF certainly won't fragment or weaken the anti-fascist movement. On the contrary, it will strengthen it. What's more, we have an obligation to confront the BNP over this particular issue. If the BNP have started showing an interest in British folk music, it is not because they like the sound of the stuff. It is because of their crackpot white supremacist ideology. IE., they believe that the British race is one of a number of European master races, all of which have become weakened and debilitated by immigration and by absorption of foreign cultural elements. They believe, just as the nazis believed, that folk music is a product of race, and that the type of music we make is a natural consequence of our racial/genetic makeup. Therefore, as part of the process of repurifying the master race, of completing the job that Hitler started in fact, they have to eliminate all 'non-Aryan' music, whether it be Negro, Asian or Islamic. That is why FAF is important. It is not just that fascism is detestable. It is not just because the BNP is trying to muscle in on 'our' music. It is because no-one in their right mind would stand by and watch while a bunch of nazi thugs expropriates this fabulous heritage that we have helped to nurture and propagate and preserve, and uses it as a weapon against us and against all the other races which we share this earth with. Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Paco Rabanne - PM Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM Ruth/Diane/ollie/guest/echo, Well done! This all reminds me of the Rock against racism movement of the 1970's. A small question though - who, in the rest of England will have even heard of Sidmouth? FolK agianst what??? Stop wasting your time by fragmenting a drive to suit your own right-on purposes! A few old hippies in FaF T shirts will sort f##k all! For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt! jOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE! We may have a rickety political system but if everyone participates the BNP have no hope. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:28 PM Sorry, typing finger went awol Out goes John MacKenzie after tellng us how much it AMUSES him "to see people realising TOO LATE, just how obnoxious they are", previously having told us that Folk people should't be involved in politics because folk is about music". In come Paco Rabanne to tell us folk and a few old hippies count for nowt - both have obviously decided which side they are on. Please end the post mortem on the launch,learn whatever lessons there were to be learned (if any) and get on with the job. Thanks for your efforts, Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:18 PM I have been pretty incandescent with Diane in the past, but may I express my total agreement with and support for everything the Borchester Echo has said on this tread? Nice to see she is not insisting that the name of the group be changed to F**k against Fascism. (jocular tweak, honest) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM Folkiedave, if someone goes to a launch event of anything, whether it's a product or an idea, and is kept waiting for 20 minutes before it's explained to them, then you're not going to get their attention, especially if they're not especially interested in the entertainment you're providing in the meantime. So the answer to your question is "yes". If Joan's speech had been early on in the event instead of 20 minutes into it, Steve would have heard it. How he would then have reacted, I can't say. Steve's message was, don't assume too much knowledge on the part of your audience and get to the point. I'm struggling to understand why this got such a hostile response. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jeri Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:50 PM I wish some people would stick with one membership, not to mention country. Not my main point. For Paco, specifically, but maybe others who want FaF people to just shut up and go away: why do you care what other people are doing? If you don't think it's going to matter at all, why do you seem so pissed off? Personally, I think the only time the world would have no chance of improving is if people stop believing they can make their ideals into reality. People might not get 100% of everything they want, but they get some of it. If they don't even try, they might as well just drop dead now and save the ale for those involved. Your old world is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand For the times, they are a-changin' You're either marching forward, trying to go backward, or you're a speed bump. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: gnu Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:33 PM Hmmm... my last post is about to fall off the 50 post mark and Ricky still has not answered. I guess he must be busy at other things. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Paco Rabanne Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM Ruth/Diane/ollie/guest/echo, Well done! This all reminds me of the Rock against racism movement of the 1970's. A small question though - who, in the rest of England will have even heard of Sidmouth? FolK agianst what??? Stop wasting your time by fragmenting a drive to suit your own right-on purposes! A few old hippies in FaF T shirts will sort f##k all! For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt! jOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE! We may have a rickety political system but if everyone participates the BNP have no hope. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Folkiedave Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:13 PM That's one person lost to the cause, who may not have been had the event been structured slightly differently. Howard, are you seriously suggesting that Steve Harris's and in fact anyone else's opposition to fascism depends upon the way an event like the launch is structured? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:49 PM "Let's recap" - Howard Jones again? We've already been through this god knows how many times, my position is not going to change anytime soon, as I stated, the world doesn't revolve around a couple of people, never has, never will do. and it"s goodnight from her. Olivia Beak (Ms) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Leadfingers Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:45 PM It would seem to me that the F A F Logo on ANY artists Albums would be a pretty good way of stopping B N P Mis selling said Albums as any kind of support for B N P . Or is that too simplistic ? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:40 PM I'm not demanding that any future events should be restructured. What I'm saying is that any feedback, positive or negative, should be welcomed. Most organisations do, and some pay large sums of money to gather it. I'm not criticising the organisers of the Sidmouth event (and incidentally their gender is irrelevant to me). My criticism is aimed at those who seem to think that any feedback which they perceive as negative is an attack on the whole event, on FAF as a movement, and is supporting the BNP. Let's recap: Steve Harris said the event didn't work for him, and so he left. Perhaps he had different expectations from the event than the organisers. When asked to, he set out succinctly what might have been done to make it work for him - points which any trainer in selling or presentation would recognise. For that, he has been jumped on in hobnail boots. In my opinion, that is unfair on Steve (who by the way I've never met, so far as I am aware) and is not helpful to FAF because it may discourage people from offering honest feedback. The important thing is that the organisers now know that they failed to reach at least a section of the audience and more importantly why. That should be useful information. It's up to them to judge whether that is a significant section of the audience who should be targeted next time, or whether Steve really is a minority of one. They may feel that Steve has a valid point, or they may decide that to change the order of the event would lose more people than it would gain. That's entirely up to them. The point is, whatever they decide will be a better-informed decision as a result of his feedback. Let me say again: all feedback, both positive and negative, is good. It tells you how you are doing, and where there may be room for improvement (and there's always room for that). Eliza C obviously understood that when she asked Steve to explain what would have made it work for him. If Ruth or any of the other organisers feel that their post-event euphoria was deflated by anything I've said, then I apologise. I'm sure that by now they've also had a debrief, decided what went well and what could have gone better, and are taking on board all the feedback they've had from whatever source. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: theleveller Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:27 PM Not having been at Sidmouth, I presume that this was a symbolic launch - a cutting of the ribbon. Most of those who have signed up had already done so; no doubt even more will do so in the future. The launch appears to have successfully achieved its aim in generating interest in the folk community and in the media and well done to all involved. Now the real work begins - to promote FAF in the widest arena possible. That is something all those who support this movement have to do. Let's hope that those who choose not to actively give their support will not hamper the rest of us in this. Let's go for it! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:41 PM The whole of his last post - Howard Jones you know how the saying goes, those that can do (once more, well done Ruth Archer and Company!), those that can't either teach or criticise. One perhaps two people left, the rest stayed, that says it all for me, restructuring just because ONE person's needs weren't met..hey, the world doesn't revolve around YOU, so get over it! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: The Borchester Echo Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:23 PM I'm not just "bad tempered", I'm incandescent that H Jones (who wasn't at the FAF launch) continues to bleat that "it didn't get to the point quickly enough", alongside inexplicable, quite embarrassing, backing for that galumphing hoofer S Harris who walked out after a few minutes because they weren't doing the Notty Swing. Both these know-alls would have done it "differently". We know that because they just can't stop saying so, sneeringly. Sounds a bit like the IMG telling the SWP that they got one word wrong in their sit-in manifesto. But it's far worse than that. It's personal abuse towards an experienced festival director and to one of our foremost and best-loved artists. Why, I wonder? Cos they're "girls"? Perhaps you should have had the idea of setting up such an organisation first, and actually done it. I wonder if you'd have attracted 4,000+ recruits in the space of four weeks? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jane Bird Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:47 PM Must people be so bad tempered? I thought us anti-fascists were opposed people being nasty to each other? I'm quite up for a civilised and well tempered debate, though. Cheers, Jane |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:30 PM Ms Echo, I was responding to your post of 12 Aug 09 - 07:05 PM in which you said, "It's not "constructive criticism" to seek to modify such a basic fact [the evils of fascism] under the guise of claiming that the FAF launch "should have got to the point quicker"" which I took to be in answer to my own post of 12 Aug 09 - 06:46 PM. Let me be clear - the event was clearly a great success, and congratulations to the organisers. However at least one person left early because the message wasn't put across sooner. That's one person lost to the cause, who may not have been had the event been structured slightly differently. In what way is it unhelpful, let alone insulting, to point that out? It's usual these days at many types of event to invite feedback from the audience to help the organisers to refine their message - indeed, filling in a feedback form has become a slightly tiresome ritual at the end of every conference or training session. Whether the feedback advice is followed is another matter. The organisers of FAF may feel that, overall, the balance of the event was right and attracted more interest than it lost - that's a judgement for them to make. But to jump on someone merely for offering feedback, which has been the overwhelming response, and to equate their suggestions with denial of the evils of fascism seems to me, to use one of your favourite words, "bonkers". Here's another suggestion, which I hope won't appear too unhelpful or insulting: I was surprised to see Ruth Archer's admission that the BBC hadn't been sent a media release and had picked up on the event from Facebook. With the greatest respect, that seems like a bit of an oversight which the organisers might think about remedying for the next event. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:06 PM "Even if the BNP became a force in Parliament they would still be impotent since all our rules and regulations will soon emanate from Brussels. Now, the dismantling of that corrupt shower is a cause worth singing for!!" - GUEST,John from Kemsing hmmmm now THIS sounds just like something the BNP and their associates would advocate, and I feel that the posting from Kemsing is simply another attempt to detract from the thread at hand. Nice try Kemsing! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: The Borchester Echo Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:24 PM What the fuck are you talking about? I wasn't at the launch and have not commented on its structure. The organisers and artists have stated clearly that i achieved what they set out to do and I support that entirely. Nitpicking from the sidelines and mouthing know-all criticisms of what "should" have occurred (according to a few carping fencesitters) is unhelpful and insulting. If, on the other hand, you think there are other ways of opposing fascism, you are of course right. No-one's stopping you from organising your own speechifying public meetings or whatever. Anything Against Fascism goes as long as it works, deters even more waverers from voting for the BNP, rescues music from misappropriation . . . oh, and sounds good. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: GUEST,John from Kemsing Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:11 PM Even if the BNP became a force in Parliament they would still be impotent since all our rules and regulations will soon emanate from Brussels. Now, the dismantling of that corrupt shower is a cause worth singing for!! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:36 PM If the organisers of the Sidmouth event are entirely satisfied with the way the event went, and don't feel that there are any lessons to be learned, that's their prerogative. It seems a bit blinkered to me, there's always room for improvement, but so be it. How even Ms Echo can turn a suggestion about how the structure of the event might be improved into a denial of the evils of fascism is beyond me. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Paco Rabanne Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:20 PM PLEASE!!!!!! Anybody read P.G.Wodehouse? Sir Roderick Spode? The British Knee? Extremists have always existed in England, but thanks to our (somewhat descredited )electoral system they haven't a hope in hell of being elected.. Over to you Peace! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:04 AM "Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much squabbling." Bit like watching the bluddy histrionics over "Who stole the Cocoa Pops?!!" on Big Brother.. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Folkiedave Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:17 AM I think FAF could do some valuable work, but it needs to focus on one area - the BNP and local traditions. It may be helpful to explain what FAF stands for and demonstrate how supporters can help make that stand. For instance: Can I in the spirit of real friendliness suggest you read the thread where you will find all the information you need - including websites. Then type Folk Against Fascism into and take a look at the Facebook page. You don't need to be a member of Facebook to read that. Then you can seek out local anti-fscist groups (most areas of the country are covered) and join that. You'll find they will be very helpful. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Flashmeister Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:15 AM Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much squabbling. It it a cause that will be supported widely within the folk scene as well as cause distemper among other members of it. we are all different in our views BUT bickering on here is not going to change or solve anything. If people want to get behind the cause, brilliant, if not then then that is just the reality of things, you can't please everyone and there will always be dissent from those who think they know better or are closet fascists. I for one am behind FAF and against the BNP to the point that i would very much like to start making moves to organise an event in the FAF week in Luton where I live (read the papers on the BNP/NF there and you shall see why!) so no, I'm not just sitting on my arse giving it lip service here. Folk music has also long been a form of protest from the the Diggers to the miners to today; it's story-telling, history, humour, cautionary tales, solidarity, love, loss, times of bounty and famine all rolled up and sung out loud by anyone moved enough to do so, go to any open session and you'll get it all so lets stop moaning that 'I don't want my folk political'. All those who say 'yay!' to support FAF just bloody well do it and don't waste time picking the bones of a pointless argument. ps. a little LOL at Mr.Harris preaching to eliza c on how to play folk music to lots of people...the novice that she clearly is :-D |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Stower Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:14 AM Mr Red and Mr. Harris, I am at a loss: "It pains me to agree with Steve Harris but you have to make the message appealing." If attempting to defend the image and integrity of folk musicians whose work is being (mis)used by fascists isn't already important and appealing (Mr. Red); if Steve Knightly at the FAF launch starting the event with his song 'Roots' because it has been appropriated by the BNP doesn't make the issue clear enough (Mr. Harris); if the attempt by fascists to fund folk events under a pseudonym to recruit members doesn't already scare you ... then I really don't know what anyone can say to you to help you become aware. Mr. Red, think on your own quote: "For evil to triumph, good men have to stand by and do nothing." It saddens me that this thread has (once again on Mudcat) been an occasion for posters to do the equivalent of a child sticking a tongue out and shouting 'yah boo sucks'. This issue (like many others) is bound to raise passion, but sarcasm and insults do nothing to promote understanding: only engaging openly with others can do that. Unfortunately, there are some who would rather play games rather than engage in rational discussion. The hardcore of the BNP and their ilk are not able to engage in rational argument. That is part of the condition and definition of being prejudiced. Being rational and factual may only win over a few who are tempted on the margins of the BNP. But those few are important. Unfortunately, one will always find it difficult to engage rationally with an irrational/fearful/passionate person. But we have to try. If all we do is sling mud, shout 'yah boo sucks', and get some kind of thrill from insulting others, making no attempt to bring understanding but feeding on negative emotions, then I wonder how our approach and behaviour is different to that of the BNP? And I wonder what we can ever hope to achieve by it? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: GUEST,MtheGM Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:00 AM "I wish FaF all the best, but I fear that it will not, on it's own, put a stop to the BNP.": J MacKenzie Of course it won't ON ITS OWN, John, Neither will anything else ON ITS OWN. But can't you see it as a valuable part of a cumulative process? A perhaps minor but nevertheless important cog in a mighty machine which, like Woody Guthrie's guitar, kills fascists? The fact that something isn't going to achieve its purpose on its own seems to me a poor reason for belittling and sneering at it {and don't pretend now you never did either: your tone thruout this thread has been scornful & negative and it's much too late now to try and save face by saying that it hasn't}; & that's the 'reality' that you denounce this thread for not welcoming here. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:45 AM I think FAF could do some valuable work, but it needs to focus on one area - the BNP and local traditions. It may be helpful to explain what FAF stands for and demonstrate how supporters can help make that stand. For instance: I would like to be able to alert the 'Management Committeee' (if there is one) to local events that are being organised by the BNP. I might need some help making the stand - dealing with the media, opposing licences, contacting the police because there is a risk of public disorder and getting information on other strategies. As for the appropriation of folk songs by Excalibur or the BNP's radio station - I can't see what a non-musician can do about that. Musicians themselves have to get their act together with more than a logo and a sticker. Take every care about who they sell rights to in the future? Donate any royalties received from the BNP to a worthy cause? I don't know the answer. I think we also have to get the 'tone' of this movement right, too. There's some very muddled thinking and talking about OUR music - as though we are an exclusive club and only people with the right credentials, opinions and persuasions are worthy listeners. If FAF can overcome this paradox (inclusive music that excludes the BNP) then that will be an achievement indeed.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: John MacKenzie Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:34 AM Read Old Vermin's post, the one before yours. I am not sneering, I am pleased that you actively went out and campaigned against them, but you were a minority. So is FaF, and that's what I'm trying to point out. I'm afraid that casting aspersions as to the veracity of my feelings about the BNP is not very constructive, and it sort of reeks of the sort of tactics that they adopt to discredit others. Once more, and for the final time. I have nothing but disdain for the BNP, and in no way do I sympathise with, or support any of it's aims. I wish FaF all the best, but I fear that it will not, on it's own, put a stop to the BNP. That's me, out of this thread, as I feel that reality isn't welcome here. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: theleveller Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM "Where were you when they were elected? Did you go out and vote at all?" As a resident of one of the constituencies where they got in, I was out campaigning against them (my house is directly opposite the polling station) and, yes, I did vote. Anther MEP who got in was the buffoon Godfrey Bloom of UKIP who is also a complete waste of space. And, no, it isn't too late. This is a way of helping to prevent the spread of the odious policies of the BNP. John, why are you spending so much time sneering from the sidelines and why do you find it amusing if, as you say, you loathe the BNP? Doesn't ring true to me. On the positive side, there is shortly to be a bi-election in Barnsley. The BNP have a candidate who, last time, failed to get elected by only 300 votes. Anyone interested in stopping another fascist getting into a position of power should join the Hope Not Hate campaign. http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/index.php/content/home-wk/ |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Old Vermin Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:32 AM Oh dear, a sigh from Ruth Archer. Should count myself lucky, I suppose. Was trying to gently mention that I might have got along there were it not for the brute practicalities of sorting out the escape from the camp-site. My feeling was that by Friday morning campers there were beginning to let go of the festival and concentrate on getting packed up and off-site. I shall be very pleased if the campaign does some good. Not wholly convinced that folkies have that much influence with the BNP target demographic, but open to discussion. Yes, the Ghastly Griffin is wittering about taking over ritual, etc. Does that mean his followers or potential voters are remotely interested in it? What he doesn't, thankfully, have is the background of WWI ruin and disaffected veterans as a starting point. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: GUEST,Mr Red Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:00 AM As an avowed apolitical (within the sartorial affectation context - and within folk) this has me in a dilema. For evil to triumph, good men have to stand by and do nothing. It pains me to agree with Steve Harris but you have to make the message appealing. After all the intention is to fight what is seen as "a message in danger of appealing to the masses". It is a well known artefact of media messages - particularly questionaires, if in doubt people tend to say yes. So give them something to say yes to, not a message full of "no"'s. I wasn't at the launch so can't comment specifically. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: John MacKenzie Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:57 AM Well for the record, and for those who can only see things from a black and white viewpoint. I loathe the BNP and their policies, I always have done. It just amuses me to see people realising TOO LATE, just how obnoxious they are. Where were you when they were elected? Did you go out and vote at all? I always exercise my vote, and in case you're interested I vote for the SNP of which I am a member. However at the last elections for MEP's I voted UKIP, because I loathe what the EEC fisheries policy has done to the Scottish fishing industry in particular, and the UK one in general. I assume that will be construed as right wing, just because it wasn't New Labour I voted for. Not that they are very left wing are they? Thank you for reading all my posts Azizi, but I woukld have thought my feelings about the BNP were obvious from what I posted. Anyway, as the general tendency in this thread is to 'shoot the messenger' rather than read and/or understand the message, it doesn't surprise me that you misconstrued what I wrote. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: jeddy Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:26 AM oh poop!!!! i meant to post on here about leon but did it on the why have the BNP gained votes thread. woops. have a great day everyone take care jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: theleveller Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:28 AM "Everybody is right wing compared to you Richard." Wrong again,John! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: GUEST,ifor Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:00 AM Around ten years ago an elderly concentration camp survivor came to Swansea to talk about his experiences in the Aushwitz extermination camp during the war.Leon's wife and baby son had been murdered by the nazis but somehow he had survived. This gentle elderly man was a shining example of humanity but he warned his audience that we must never allow the fascists to regain their confidence. I had seen Leon some years previously at the head of a 60000 anti nazi march in Welling South London where the BNP had its then headquarters. Leon had received death threats from fascist thugs and his home had been attacked. He had to have security cameras and other safety precautions installed around his house.This man was in his eighties. We owe it to the millions murdered in the war to ensure that these racist Hitler loving thugs dont ever get the chance to threaten people like Leon and dont ever get near state power. ifor |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: The Borchester Echo Date: 12 Aug 09 - 07:05 PM Fascism / racism = evil. It's not a matter of how many (Orwellian) legs it has. It's not "constructive criticism" to seek to modify such a basic fact under the guise of claiming that the FAF launch "should have got to the point quicker" That's fatuous. What the BNP (and its antecedents) are doing / did is WRONG / I NHUMAN / PLAIN & SIMPLE EVIL. Yes, one Mackenzie sneer was right: he claimed anti-fascists saw it in stark terms, right or wrong, no in between. Dead right we do (speaking for myself and - I'd hope - for all but a handful of snivelling apologists lurking on this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Howard Jones Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:46 PM I haven't seen anyone saying the event was a failure. On the contrary, it clearly was a success. For the avoidance of doubt: bloody well done, good effort. However, it could have been an even greater success, instead it failed to keep the interest of at least one person for long enough to get the message across. Why assume he was the only one? There may well have been others, and they too will have left early so you won't have had feedback from them. Steve has explained why it didn't work for him - the basic message is, don't assume your audience knows what it's all about, and get to the point sooner. There are two possible reactions to this: one is to take his comments on board and consider whether future events might be arranged slightly differently to make sure the key message is delivered while you still have everyone's full attention. The other, which with the exception of Eliza C seems to have been the reaction of most here, is to attack Steve for failing to understand a message you hadn't actually got around to delivering. Frankly, I find this attack on constructive criticism painfully reminiscent of left-wing student politics in my youth. This is feedback which should assist you to do better next time, rather than an attack on the entire event. For god's sake, don't be so defensive about accepting it as such. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: Azizi Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:44 PM I live in the USA and I am a member of Folk Against Fascism. Why? Because I believe that no matter where we live we should be against fascism. I also believe that no matter where we live, people should take a stand against fascists' attempts to appropriate folk music and other forms of folk culture for their own hateful purposes. John McKenzie, I've read and re-read all of your posts to this thread. And in doing so, i've noted that in those posts on this thread you have never used the term "BNP". For example, on 11 Aug 09 - 03:37 PM you wrote: "I'm not going to let them do it either my anonymous friend, but joining silly groups isn't going to stop them either. People need to get out on the streets, campaign against them in public, attend their election meetings and ask awkward questions. -snip- [italics added by me to highlight those words] And you concluded that post with additional "thems" and "theirs", never once using the initials "BNP" or the word "fascists". And on 12 Aug 09 - 06:14 AM you wrote: "Oh I agree with the ends Jeddy, just the means I quibble with. We get them up here too now, so it's not just England that suffers from their hideous activities." -snip- For point of clarification, what ends do you agree with? And who or what group or groups is "them" and what are "their" hideous activities? I'm asking you for this clarification because of this subsequent post of yours: Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: John MacKenzie - PM Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:02 PM Well Mr Beak, if you prefer to descend to personal jibes, rather than discuss another person's point of view that's fine with me. But I would have thought that was the sort of thing that the people you are fighting against would do. Other people are entitled to have a point of view too, so ignoring that, or denigrating it because you don't agree, isn't very constructive. -snip- John, it's clear to me from her statements that the BNP are the people Ms. Beak is fighting against. Given that, John, if you are also against the goals of the BNP, I'm interested in knowing why you wrote "the people you are fighting against" rather than "the people we are fighting against". What I'm asking for, John, is that you clarify for me and perhaps for others your point of view on the BNP by sharing where exactly you stand regarding the BNP. Thank you in advance for your response. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: jeddy Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:42 PM the way i read steves last post was of different ways to fight them but maybe i have been decieved? i certainly didn't agree with his earlier posts and nor do i agree with johns, but i would never say you shouldn't say what you truely think. as long as what you are saying you do actually believe. i don't mind someone playind devils advocate, but as long as i know that is what they are doing, i am the first to admit, i can be very thick sometimes. just to be clear i am not knocking the progress so far. and i admire the stamina and effort that has gone into making the group and sustaining it. my sound off was simple. i just don't like being told it is none of my buisness, coz i am a nosey, opinionated git!!! not to mention very stubborn. however i do feel bad if you all get the idea that i was being too judgemental. take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: The Borchester Echo Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:31 PM I was just trying to work out if "being Unneccessarily (sic) virulent " involves passing on the flu when you don't have to when Mudcat went on one of its all-too-frequent walkabouts. I assume that antipodean pest is putting a bad spell on it . . . I never know what Steve Harris is talking about and just generally assume he's bonkers but this time I'm close to getting it and no, I DON'T like what he and similar apologists say from their pretendy perch of "reasonableness". It's one thing for crypto-fascists to try to undermine an embryo anti-fascist organisation. Whatever do you expect? But be not fooled by the apparent difference between nazi thugs going after The Clash at RAR in Victoria Park 30 odd years ago and middle-class wankers today preaching :free speech". It's just a tweaking of tactics. A nazi is a nazi is a nazi. As Ollie Beak says, they have to be opposed in any way possible. If this involves knocking the likes of MacKenzie, Teribus and hmmm Leadfingers (?) offf their fake fences, so be it, More power to FaF (our music needs it) and all praise to Ruth for thinking of it and pulling off Phase I. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth From: jeddy Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:28 PM i think mr harris's last post wasn't all that bad. what he was saying was maybe to start some gigs rally n stuff by saying what it is all about. sometimes we should just assume that no one knows why they are there. i think what we cats forget is that we are a handful of people, there are so many who still do not have the internet at home, or have never even heard of mudcat or don't use facebook. john, i agree i am a silly person on a silly website in a silly country. AND I AM DAMN PROUD TO BE. we are known for our sense of humour and quite frankly sir, you are kinda letting the side down somewhat. that said you are right to say we should fight them in numerous ways not just like this, but what a hell of a start!! no, i wasn't there and no, i probably won't be at codnor either due to family commitments. i will however be there in heart and sould if not in body. i don't understand why it should matter if we were there or not, people have brought forward ideas and thoughts and it is that we are responding to. no need to get arsey about it, just go with the flow and if there are any ideas that make sense to you maybe they could be used in future. since this is such a new group and things haven't become stale yet it might be worth storing ideas for the future to make sure it never goes stale with overdoing it. i do not like being told that i can only hold an opinion on stuff that i have actually been to. this is what a conversation looks like, it goes this way, it goes the other way but all are valid points and should not just be swept aside by saying, well you weren't there so your opinions don't count. sorry if that sounded to harsh but it felt like that was what you were saying, if i took that the wrong way i am sorry. take care all jade x x x x x |
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