BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:12 PM

I can never get my head round this "spiritual journey" thang. I'm already here and I'm not going anywhere else. If there's a spiritual journey, then it's going to have me hitting the buffers in a big spluttering mess one day. I'll have spent far too much time plotting my spiritual route and wondering if I'm going in the right direction. I might even start to fret about the meaning of life or whether I'm getting my spiritual fill, heaven forfend. Life is and should be deliciously earthbound, with time for flights of imagination, lots of reverie, serious bouts of reflection and private musings and occasional bouts of transcendent joy, but mostly down 'ere in the rough and tumble. A big patchwork quilt.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:02 PM

""If, however, a religion offers you a way of getting together with other people you really like and with whom you share common values...if it offers you a way to build a better community and help the poor, for example...if it helps you to look deeper into ideas and philosophical viewpoints that you find inspiring, and finding greater inner peace...if it motivates you to be a better person and to treat other people in a kinder way...that's NOT a scam.""

I would agree that all of the above activities are very desirable, and in fact I believe that I have managed every single aspect of your outline, including helping others without one ounce of input from any religious organisation.

I even managed to raise about £4000 in one year (jointly with a friend) for the purpose of helping to prevent the collapse of a church spire, simply because the friend in question was a member of that church congregation.

I'm not saying that your comment is untrue, because it isn't!

I am simply pointing out that empathy and human feeling are not the exclusive property of the religious.

After all, in addition to the virtues you describe above, the world's three major religions (I don't count Buddhism in this), have been, are still, and probably always will be busily engaged in trying to slaughter one another by any means possible.

Go figure!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:58 PM

Good post, Steve. I like the images you came up with.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM

Okay, Don. That's interesting. Can you elaborate a bit on being a Deist?

I don't want intermediaries of any kind between me and God either...I think of everyone as an equal in that respect...but I don't go to a church or a religious setup in order to find those intermediaries or be dependent on them. I go in order to participate and connect with other people in a way that helps brighten up my life and encourages discussion and sharing of ideas.

What I find with spiritual study is this: it doesn't supply a set of pat answers or dogma or a set of rules...rather it encourages asking a lot more questions and considering all kinds of new possibilities.

I have no idea what heaven or hell might be like...assuming they are actually some kind of dimensional existence....or whether they are just symbolic of states of mind. But I do know what is heavenly...and what is hellish. That's pretty clear.

I do think that part of the spiritual journey has to do with relating to other people, so although, like you, I don't need the guy in the robe or skullcap to "get me to heaven", I do find much benefit in just being around people with similar spiritual interests and ideals.

It's more fun than hanging out with people I can't stand or have really little in common with. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:37 PM

Strip away all those religious connotations (I would, wouldn't I) and I actually think that heaven and hell are quite useful concepts for helping to define our lives on this planet. Seeing a simple linearity, though, doesn't wash. There's no scale of one to ten with hell=0 and heaven=10. You can have a heavenly orgasm and realise, two seconds later, that you foot is itching like crazy, or that you're on your last clean shirt. You can have a hellish day at the office and savour that sublime first draught of Talisker when you get home (which you had increasingly heavenly expectations of as the afternoon dragged on). You can be standing there freezing nearly to death at the bus stop and when the bus finally arrives the most beautiful woman you've ever seen is on it. You can hurry along worrying about what you'll have for lunch, or you can savour the feel of your feet on the ground, right there at the exact interface between the Earth and space. Stand outside and wish you'd cut that bloody tree back that is now shading your barbecue, or see it for what it really is, a true winner in the billions of years of evolution that produced it. You can indulge yourself with hellish dark thoughts but you can turn it round in a heartbeat and relish your good fortune in just being here. If you can do all that you're more fortunate than many, a heavenly thought in itself. Heavenly things and hellish things are all little vignettes that make up a great big kaleidoscope of life, and the one knocks the sparks off the other.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:34 PM

""What exactly is wrong with offering a person a carrot and a stick if it is done with a positive intent? We do it all the time with our own children when we're bringing them up.

What Don T. appears to be ojecting to is the very idea OF organized religion per se, rather than the concept of the carrot and the stick. ""

Where exactly did you get that idea from anything I have said LH.

I don't object to religion, organised or chaotic. I simply don't feel the need for it.

Like Kendall, I am a Deist. My communications with God are my own affair, private, and I have no neede of men in black frocks, Turbans, or skull caps to tell me how to reach him.

I have somewhat less than no interest in how other people communicate with him, providing only that they do not try to force their way on me, or teach children their beliefs as science.

I gave my reasons for ditching Catholicism without suggesting or implying that anybody else should follow my example.

I hope that is now abundantly clear!!

As to stick and carrot, there is nothing in the least wrong with a system which offers punishment and reward, and I don't believe that I implied otherwise.

I simply stated what heaven and hell amount to in real and simple terms.

Knowing how you feel about having your words misinterpreted, perhaps you might accord me the right to the same feelings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:31 PM

I recall that Al Stewart mentioned Old Compton Street in one of his songs...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:16 PM

""& a coffee bar in Soho ~~ Greek St, I think ~~ I used to meet my girlfriend Jackie there in 1957. Or maybe it was in The Strand. Ah me; my memory is not what it was ~~ how hellish!""

Heaven & Hell, Old COmpton St, Soho, two doors away from the 2 Is, and a short distance from Le Macabre in Wardour St, where you sat on hassacks around coffin shaped tables and stubbed your out Players Navy Cut in ceramic skull ashtrays.

Happy days Mike! Rock & Roll, Jazz, Skiffle and Classical music, all within a five minute walk.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM

"scams. Based on fear, ignorance and ego."

That's how I feel about most government propaganda nowadays, kendall! ;-D And much of what the news media tells me. And religions too when they are mishandled....but not when they are not. And most commercial advertising, for sure.

You see, governments try to sell you a policy that may very well hurt your nation...for the gain of a few rich people at the top.

Businesses try to sell you a product you may very well not need...for the gain of a few rich people at the top.

The news media, owned by a few rich people, tell you the propaganda that their rich owners want you to hear, so as to form public opinion as they would like it to be.

Those are scams too.

If a religion tries to sell you a false or frightening idea in order to control you for the gain of that religious hierarchy...or for the gain of a few leaders...that's a scam.

And I avoided religions for many years simply on that basis. But I knew almost nothing about them at the time. My prejudice (having grown up as an atheist) was based on a mere sliver of knowledge and supposition about religion, not on actual experience around religions.

If, however, a religion offers you a way of getting together with other people you really like and with whom you share common values...if it offers you a way to build a better community and help the poor, for example...if it helps you to look deeper into ideas and philosophical viewpoints that you find inspiring, and finding greater inner peace...if it motivates you to be a better person and to treat other people in a kinder way...that's NOT a scam.

Having discovered a number of religious groups over the years who did all of the above (and they were not all in the same religions, and some were inclusive of all major religions or were non-denominational)...I know that religion is not necessarily a scam.

It's just a scam when it's used in a hypocritical and fraudulent way.

To be cynical about ALL religion on principle is about as perceptive as thinking that "all women are stupid" or "all men are brutes" or "all Irish are drunkards" or "all Americans are fat, racist, fundamentalist slobs". A prejudice like that can't be based on a whole lot of real experience with a variety of different examples or cases of the subject at hand. It's a position of blind prejudice, not actual knowledge.

****

Don - I pretty much agree with everything you said in your last post. As you said, "religion should be a matter of choice, not of coercion. And the carrot and stick is counterproductive in that context"

Absolutely! Dead right. Anything I have ever had to do with religion was definitely a matter of my own free choice as a freethinking adult. I don't go near any outfit that tries to coerce me.

Since my parents made no effort to enroll me in any religion whatsoever, being atheists, I can assure you that I've been under no coercion at any time to join a religion. And if people are so foolish as to threaten me now with "hell" if I don't take up their specific beliefs, I avoid them. I don't judge them. I just avoid them.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:22 PM

As far as I can see, all religions are scams. Based on fear, ignorance and ego.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:09 PM

Oh... yeah! A lad I knew said once, "I am a Frisbetyrian... I believe that, when ya die, yer soul lands up on the roof and ya can't get it down." Fat Boy Lee Clark. He was a gem of a man... a true comedian. Broke his back in a rail yard accident workin fer the CNR... used to say he was the only one who ever broke his back workin fer CN. That lad was a joke a minute. RIP, Fat Lee... wherever you ended up ya crazy b

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:46 PM

i think that geogiansilver pretty much expressed how i would answer.some of the expressions and wording of the texts may be poetic but hell is still a place to be shunned and heaven a placed to be accepted [by repentance and faith] but i wish there were not a hell but i am not going to gainsay the perfect judge.He also takes no delight in it.
"God is not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:45 PM

Don... well said. And you struck on my fundamental belief in the concept, as have others, but they have not put it so simply. Still, I am pondering my explanation... my belief. All of this gives me food for thought and the insightful and thought provoking posts are a breath of fresh air.

I was inspired to ask this question because of a poem/song I wrote when I was a teenager. I remembered it after my other thread went south. Odd how the memory gets jogged. It was an 'OH... yeah!' moment.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:02 PM

There is nothing wrong with the carrot and the stick analogy in many situations. "If you work productively, you will be rewarded." Carrot. "If you lead a life of crime, you'll eventually wind up in jail." Stick.

But religion should be a matter of choice, not of coercion. And the carrot and stick is counterproductive in that context.

For example, who is the better person, someone who does good works because he genuinely feels it's the right thing to do and because he wants to, or the person who does good works, not because he cares for others in the least, but because he's afraid if he doesn't, he'll go to hell?

The outward results may be the same, but the motivation of the two people is far different. One out of love for others (deemed to be a Christian value) and the other out of fear of the consequences.

Who, then, would God judge to be the better person?

Which, within some religious denominations or churches, is the issue. Some of them use the Heaven or Hell issue for reasons of secular power, such as getting their congregations to beggar themselves by making lavish contributions to the church, or voting a particular way the church favors.

=======

Back in the days, the Church was "selling indulgences." Offering the very large carrot of being able to buy one's way into heaven—with the implied stick of hell if one doesn't, hovering in the background. The wealthy could buy their way into heaven by making a lavish contribution to the Church. The popes where still trying to pay off the mortgage on St. Peter's and Michelangelo had to be paid for decorating the Sistine Chapel. The Church needed money. So they set up a turnstile and charged for getting into heaven.

The idea that the wealthy could bribe their way into heaven, and that the Church was selling this idea to obtain funds was one of several things the Church was up to that really got up Martin Luther's nose.

He did a bit of raging and storming.

Hence, the birth of Protestantism (i.e. protesting against this scam the Church was peddling). The carrot and the stick of Heaven and Hell to manipulate people for secular purposes (such as fund raising).

God, Who is the Ultimate Judge, Luther maintained, doesn't work that way. He sees into every heart and judges that way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:33 PM

He said:

Reduced to the simplest terms, a stick and a carrot for the faithful.

Hell awaits if you disobey.
Heaven is the reward for doing what you are told.

But what would we call it when an idealistic cop or teacher advises a young gang member as follows: "Look, Jason, if you keep hanging with the gangs and dealing crack, you are going to wind up very badly...in jail or dead. Is that what you want? Why not instead go back to school, obey your parents, obey the law, and then I won't be on your back anynmore, will I? And you can have a good future ahead of you, get a good job, find a nice girl, and live a happy family life. What's it gonna be, Jason? What future do you want for yourself?"

The cop (or teacher) just offered the crack-dealing kid a carrot and a stick.

What exactly is wrong with offering a person a carrot and a stick if it is done with a positive intent? We do it all the time with our own children when we're bringing them up.

What Don T. appears to be ojecting to is the very idea OF organized religion per se, rather than the concept of the carrot and the stick.

Every crucial decision we face between making a serious mistake and not making it does involve a carrot and a stick if you are capable of seeing the situation clearly.

Religious teachings in all cultures and religions advise people not to be cruel, selfish, criminal, violent, greedy, unloving, etc...or there will be negative consequences. Will anyone here assert that there are no negative consequences to such negative behaviour? We can argue till the cows come home about what form those consequences will take, but they will definitely come in one form or another. In India they call that "karma".

We all know about the carrot and the stick, and we face it everwhere in life, not just in religion.

If Don's objecting to a religion based on fear, well, then, we're on the same page. I'm not at all attracted to religious groups that use fear as a motivator. I'm attracted to those who use love, idealism, and a sense of responsibility and community as motivators.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Kenny B Sans kuki
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:16 PM

To a masochist heaven is hell and to sadist hell is heaven and for all those in between .... its just what you make it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM

One could write all kinds of lengthy treatise on this subject, but after giving it a good think and reading some of the (quite lengthy and verbose) commentaries above, I come to the conclusion than Don(Wyziwyg)T nailed it quite succinctly in his post at 18 Mar 13 - 07:36 a.m. above.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:40 PM

Could be, Ebbie. If by "God" we mean: every good thing that there is....then separation from God would indeed be hell, wouldn't it?

I've been somewhat puzzled by the traditional notion of Jesus' "sacrifice" too, but not because he died in an ordinary way. That's neither here nor there. It doesn't matter which way he died. All that matters is, what was his own personal nature? What was he doing? And why? The degree of his sacrifice would depend on those factors.

For a comparison to explain what I mean: If the English army in the early 1400s had siezed a young French girl who had never done anything of particular note and burned her at the stake in Rouen...would we be hearing about it till today? No, we wouldn't. Actually, the English troops killed a great many young women, men, children, whoever they wanted to kill all across about half of France in those days, and they did burn some of them, but we don't know the names of most of those people.

But when they burnt Joan of Arc in Rouen, they did something that will not be forgotten! Why? Because Joan was a remarkable individual who had done extraordinary things to help many people. That made her innocent sacrifice an enormous event with reverberations that are still being felt today.

The thing that is significant about Jesus being innocently sacrificed is likewise that he was a remarkable individual who had done extraordinary things to help many people. How he died (on the cross) is not the point. What he had done before he died, his character, and what he died FOR is the point. That made the event extraordinary, and that's why he is still remembered, while thousands of other people who died similarly on the cross are not.

People long remember those whom they care deeply about.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:18 PM

kendall - PM
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:15 AM

"Heaven is being one with god. Hell is being apart from god."

OK- a bit of religious history here:

Christians speak of Jesus's sacrifice as being superlative, the ultimate altruism, in his choosing to die on a cross, to be killed for humankind.

That has never made sense to me. To be crucified was not an uncommon way to die - even in the biblical story, a common thief was condemned to die on the cross.

So that cannot be the point. If human being were capable of identifying with ants, say, became aware of their problems and discovered that if s/he sacrificed their life, knowing that s/he would then return to life as a human being, I have little doubt but that someone would do it.

Where the sacrifice comes in, I believe, is not the dying on the cross but the necessary separation from God.

And perhaps, that is what hell is: Separation from God.

Thus spake Ebbie, product of longtime indoctrination.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

It is a good smell. And I don't like coffee anymore either.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:03 PM

How about the smell of freshly ground coffee?    That's heavenly.   And I don't like coffee in the least. Humans are funny in a lot of ways.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

Hell is also referred to as "sheol" (Hebrew word) in a number of places in the Bible. Sheol simply means "the grave".

People decide for themselves whether the various descriptions of hell in various Bible passages should be interpreted literally or metaphorically. I doubt that most of them were intended literally, and I also think that unless you can place yourself in the mindset of the social culture at the time the biblical passages were written, you will very often be misled as to the meaning of the words used.

We use common language now in all kinds of ways which someone 2,000 years from now would be very much misled by, and it has always been so.

So, a study of ancient writings in any tradition needs to be accompanied also by a study of that ancient culture and the common ideas of the time if one is to understand what one is reading.

Rob Naylor - Way up there in the posts you said something quite interesting: "If you were always in the same blissful state of joyful consciousness, how would you *know* that this was a "good" state unless you'd also had a taste of unhappiness or despair to calibrate against?"

Good point. We do gain perspective and understanding from experiencing all the various ups and downs in life...just as we develop character by encountering difficulties, and grow strong overcoming adversity. We (hopefully) gain compassion for others through experiencing pain ourselves. We appreciate plenty by experiencing scarcity. All of this is very useful on the path of evolution, the path of maturing, the path of gaining wisdom.

This can make a pretty good argument for why God wouldn't just swoop down one day and make everything perfect, doesn't it? If He/She/It did, we'd be deprived of the opportunity to find our own wings, deprived of the chance to learn through experience, deprived of the chance to reach our true potential through using our mental and moral muscles.

If you do that for a child...simply remove every obstacle and provide a surfeit of every desirable circumstance...what happens? The child gets spoiled, bored, and does not mature. Challenges are good. Without them, how would we learn to become our own best selves?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:41 PM

Heaven is the smell of roasting coffee beans drifting down the street.

Hell is knowing that the taste of that coffee will never be as good as the smell of the roasting beans...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:21 PM

when Hell freezes over

(Note.. Dante used images of the damned frozen in eternal ice for his 9th circle)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM

It's a fear tactic used by fundamentalists to control others. It's sort of like Grimms Fairy Tales used to scare children into good behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM

"L'enfer, c'est les autres," usually translated as "Hell is other people."

Jean Paul Sartre.

I'd better go there, as if I went to the other place, I wouldn't know anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:22 AM

As I said before, you create your own Heaven and Hell, whether or not there's an afterlife, a mandala, or even being chained to a rock with vultures eating away you liver for Eternity.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:15 AM

Heaven is being one with god. Hell is being apart from god.

The name Hell comes from Scandinavian mythology. She is the equivalent of Hades in Greek mythology.
Remove hell and Christianity pretty much falls apart.

It's up to each of us what we need to believe. I'm a Deist; the creator gave me an inquiring mind, one that questions everything, and I doubt that he/she/it will punish me for using it.

To me, all religions are superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:31 AM

Heaven:
What the Human Species is capable of Creating.

Hell:
What the Human Species is capable of Creating.

Purgatory:
Where the Human Species finally decides which it WILL Create.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:15 AM

Meaning Johns post re gay club

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM

Best answer yet!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:06 AM

& a coffee bar in Soho ~~ Greek St, I think ~~ I used to meet my girlfriend Jackie there in 1957. Or maybe it was in The Strand. Ah me; my memory is not what it was ~~ how hellish!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:52 AM

Used to be a gay nightclub, in Brighton.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM

Reduced to the simplest terms, a stick and a carrot for the faithful.

Hell awaits if you disobey.
Heaven is the reward for doing what you are told.

When I was a kid, it was the bogeyman who dealt with naughty children (so we were told).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

"Women are the only heaven. Marriage is the only hell" - Abiezer Coppe, according to Leon Rosselson and (probably) Christopher Hill, but I can't find the book just now.

Human beings were never intended to go into hell

I wonder why he created them then, since, being omniscient, he knew that some (according to some believers the vast majority) would go to hell and, being omnipotent, he had the choice of creating the Universe in a different way.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:31 AM

Excellent discussion. Much appreciated. Thanks. I hope it continues.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:53 AM

Human beings were never intended to go into hell, but the ones who chose to reject God will one day follow satan right into this eternal torment. There will be no exit from hell, no way out, no second chance. That is why it is so important in this life to reveive the pardon that God extends to all men through the Cross of Jesus

To paraphrase Frank Zappa : if hell there is, then it is reserved exclusively for those who not only believe in it, but routinely take delight in condemning others to it on account of the somewhat warped tenets of their utterly idiotic faith. If heaven there is, OTOH, it's there for the rest of us who just want to quietly get on with our lives without consigning people to eternal torment for the expedient of simply being human. Burn again, Christians!

Otherwise, whilst the reality of hell is confined to the maggot-ridden brains of lunatic who choose to believe in it, the historic iconography of hell has long intrigued me. I adore the imps, devils, demons that run riot over the churches & cathedrals of the middle-ages. I especially love the medieval depictions of the Harrowing of Hell in which Christ liberates souls through the mouth of hell which is invariably depicted as simulacrum of female genitalia in a double symbolism of rebirth on the one hand and luscious drooling fragrant blossoming sinful dripping pussy lust on the other.   

And then, of course, there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr00G-UMgVU

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM

This is taken from a Bible... is not my personal interpretation!
What is hell like?
>>>>>>>>>>There are two descriptions of hell in the Bible. One is of burning fire.. Jesus often used the word Gehenna to describe hell. Gehenna was the refuse dump outside Jerusalem that was always on fire. Jesus said hell is a place of worms, maggots, fire and trouble. FGrom that we get the image of the lake of fire and the concept of perpetual burning. The evil ones there are full of remorse and torment. (Mark 9:43-48)
Jesus said hell would be 'outer darkness'... weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 18:12). Here the image is one of terrible loneliness: separation from God and man. Those who are consigned to hell will be put into the inky blackness of eternity, with nobody to turn to or talk to- constantly alone. They will suffer the remorse of knowing they had the opportunity to come into Heaven with God but turned it down. The Bible speaks of a lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41) Human beings were never intended to go into hell, but the ones who chose to reject God will one day follow satan right into this eternal torment. There will be no exit from hell, no way out, no second chance. That is why it is so important in this life to reveive the pardon that God extends to all men through the Cross of Jesus Christ (Rev 20:11-15<<<<<<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:45 AM

Interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:40 AM

"As hell is a Christian construct"...
.,,.
In the main, indeed; though Isaiah & probably Jude which you cite CS, are pre-Xtn. Tho many regard Isaiah as proleptic and predictive of Christ's coming, this would clearly not be a Jewish view. But the concept of Hell is generally, in its Biblical citations, NT rather the OT otherwise; though there are some refs to Gehenna, a sort of Jewish equivalent named after a valley near Jerusalem where human sacrifices took place in evil times.

Wikipedia ~ "This article is about the Biblical term that has been interpreted as analogous to the concept of "Hell" or "Purgatory". For other uses, see Gehenna (disambiguation).
Main article: Jewish eschatology
Valley of Hinnom, c. 1900
Gehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.
Originally, it was believed that this was a location where children were sacrificed to Moloch, hence from the perspective of the authors of the Hebrew Bible, it was deemed to be cursed.[1]
In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell."

OT refs are given in the rest of this article in wiki. But this is not altogether the Christian 'Hell", which appears indeed, apart fom that one mention in Isaiah, to be a later concept. The Gospels quote Jesus' use of the term, saying e.g. that anyone who, in anger, called his brother a fool was "in danger of Hellfire", Matt V.22.; and Jesus was a Jew, of course, tho he had clearly his own theological glosses on many of that faith's traditions an teachings.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM

As hell is a Christian construct, I'll stick with primary source. On the other thread mg replied stating that hell was a fiery pit in which you are roasted for eternity (approx) and it certainly seems like the Bible agrees with that. As to what metaphorical places different denominations of Christianity imagine, I've no clue.

Cut & Paste from: http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/hell.html

"3. What is Hell really?

Hell is a place of flaming fire.

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

II Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Mark 9:44 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Mark 9:46 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:47 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:"
Mark 9:48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Hell is a place of smothering smoke.

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Hell is a place of dismal darkness.

Jude 1:13 "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

Hell is a place screaming and wailing.

Matthew 22:13 "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Hell is a place of everlasting chains.

Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Hell is a place of flesh-eating worms.

Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations."
Isaiah 14:10 "All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"
Isaiah 14:11 "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."
Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

Hell is a place of no rest day nor night – no sleep.

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.""

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM

It seems very unlikely to me that there's an afterlife, so in that respect the concepts have no meaning for me.

In terms of consciousness or state of mind while alive, people can be in either a joyful or despairing state, sure, but not continuously, or there's be no yardstick to measure the feeling.

If you were always in the same blissful state of joyful consciousness, how would you *know* that this was a "good" state unless you'd also had a taste of unhappiness or despair to calibrate against?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:51 AM

"What are heaven and hell? Well, I think that Europeans and their offspring got most of their concepts from Dante," Joe wrote above.

Right. And another source to be mentioned is the C18 Swedish scientist & occasional mystic Swedenborg, who published a book called Heaven & Hell. It's not easy reading ~~ in my literarily conscientious youth I found a Penguin edition, which I still have somewhere I think, and did my best to read it, tho much of it was pretty heavy going. I simply mention it here as a reference for any who want to follow up the topic. There are good Wikipedia entries on the author & his book.

HTH

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:31 AM

I suppose you need to differentiate between seeing them as what you wish for versus what you hope you don't get, or what you are promised versus what you are threatened with.

The former is using terms to describe your own take on life and the latter is the take others wish to prescribe.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 03:57 AM

What are heaven and hell? Well, I think that Europeans and their offspring got most of their concepts from Dante, but where did Dante get his ideas from? It the Divine Comedy almost entirely from his imagination mixed with a bit of scripture, or are there folkloric sources also?

In general, I prefer not to speculate, but I do have some general idea of heaven as being absorbed into the One, the unity of all with God (or if no God, then just the unity of all). Some theologians speculate that if God is as good as we claim God to be, then hell could not be God's creation - that it is built somehow by the evil that exists in humankind. Most progressive theologians seem to think that if there is a hell, not many people go there.

But I don't think about heaven or hell very much. I focus my life on the present, of drawing as much as I can out of the current moment. I was raised in a Catholic family and went through 16 years of Catholic education (half of that in a Catholic seminary), and I didn't really get very much exposure to thinking about heaven and hell.

Works for me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:59 AM

Fiction, is what they are. Figments of the human mind which is desperate for meaning.

John Lennon had it right:
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky


Anything we imagine beyond that gives rise to the dangerous mental illness known as religious faith.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:48 AM

"We know instinctively that to torture is wrong, is evil."

Exactly. So it's ridiculous to imagine that God would do something like that to people who are purportedly His/Her own children! Though my parents certainly made some mistakes in bringing me up, I'm very glad they didn't put the idea of a vengeful God into my head. It would have been nice, though, if they'd put the idea of a loving God into my head...it would've helped.

Oh, well, it worked out pretty well anyway, so why complain?

Zeus and Athena and the other Greek gods and goddesses were an interesting and entertaining lot, but they seem to have had a penchant for all the same competitive, nasty mindgames that people waste their time on, and that seems odd to me. It worked for the Greeks, though. ;-) They clearly saw the gods and goddesses of their pantheon as larger and more powerful versions of themselves, afflicted with the same strengths and weaknesses...but with greater authority. That makes no sense to me.

Native Americans spoke of a Great Spirit (or Great Mystery) that was the source of all existence and of all life...not a god or goddess, but a universal, immeasurable, infinite source. That makes more sense to me than a pantheon of human-like gods and goddesses, because they are just too small to believe in.

The Infinite is implicit in everything that exists...and it's limited to no one thing or expression. That means it doesn't begin or end anywhere, but is simply everywhere. That's something big enough for me to believe in...or at least consider worth believing in.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:28 AM

I too have fairly vague notions regarding heaven and hell.
Though I was raised in the concept of "ever-lasting punishment with unrelenting agony of burning and unquenchable thirst" it amazes me that I believed it and feared it for as long as I did.

If there is a god, vengeful or otherwise, then, yes, I can believe that extinguishment is a possibility. I can even accept that any creator has the right to knock down the tower of blocks.

But hell as in the first depiction? Nah. For one reason: We know instinctively that to torture is wrong, is evil. And a creation cannot be better than its creator.

And heaven? There have been brief periods in my life that felt like heaven. A period of time and space where I was exactly where I wanted to be and doing what I wanted to be doing and with exactly the right people around me.

A literal heaven? I suspect that "heaven" is a transitional place, a graduation if you will, a completion of one level.

A little segue here: Has it ever occurred to you that Zeus and Athena and all the rest may be our gods in reality? Yoicks.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:10 AM

gnu, I think that everyone has to find out in their own heart what heaven or hell means to them. Nobody else can decide that for you, but there's no harm in people discussing what they think about it. If they're willing to respect one another, it could be quite illuminating.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:32 PM

My life partner, Susan Urban, and I have a Unitarian/Universalist service on the very notion. I remember having a stoned conversation with another friend where we thought if you were into materialistic things when you died, where you went would be like hell. If you were not into that sort of thing, it would seem like heaven. I could send you what the whole homilies were if you wanted.