BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:48 PM

Ron, you really must purchase a dictionary. Then look up "cynical" and "realistic", and note the difference.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:57 AM

Ron - Taking steps to try to promote honest elections is not defeatism. The subtitle to the "already stolen" article was somthing to the effect of: "unless something is done now."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 10:51 AM

"worth looking into", fine. 2008 election "already stolen", not so fine--and unlikely, to say the least. But more of the cynical defeatism we've come to expect from some Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 04:24 PM

In view of what went on in the last two elections, its certainly worth looking into.

                  By the way, are they still using electronic voting machines without paper-trails anyplace?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 04:11 PM

Last post in answer to Michael R.) I'm sure Greg Palast is the perfect political oracle. Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 04:09 PM

Never underestimate the self-defeating cynicism of some Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:37 PM

Frank, Kucinich may indeed be totally honest about his views, but that doesn't change the fact that his views appeal primarily to the far left of the Democratic Party, and I believe most Dems, and Republicans too, are desperate to see a power shift back to the center.
For example,I don't believe that most of the electorate advocates or desires immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq, whether or not they agree with the motivation for and execution of the war. And I can't see how politically correct newspeak like "the Department of Peace" would change the fact that negotiating and keeping peace is the legitimate charge of the State Department, and that appropriate and necessary use of force should be in the charge of the sensibly-named Department of Defense. If these powers are being incorrectly applied, the solution is to reform those institutions, not create another full level of bureaucracy.
But my point is not to argue Kucinich's specific proposals. He has had a hearing at each of the debates. If his ideas were going to gain traction in public opinion, they would be doing so now, regardless of media coverage or lack thereof.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:29 PM

Never underestimate the stupidity of the American electorate. This is not a cynical stance, it is a realistic one.

Besides, the 2008 election has been stolen already, just like 2000 and 2004. Just ask Greg Palast.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

"Does Iowa have a great concentration of students from out of state?"

    "Otherwise, wouldn't things balance out, since there would presumably be local students who go to college elsewhere who would be coming home to Iowa for Christmas."


                McGrath - The problem has to do with Iowa moving their primary. The students in Iowa were probably registered in Iowa, thinking at the time they registered the primary would be later. If they are registered in Iowa now, it's probably to late to change their registration back to their home state.

                I know the University of Iowa attracts literary majors from all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

My post was in answer to Rig, since he asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:06 PM

Yes.

She has huge negatives--in the country at large, not in the Democratic party--a large visceral feeling against her, both for her own behavior and as a reflection of lingering resentment by many against Bill--and many are not looking forward to a co-presidency of Bill and Hillary, which is predicted if she wins. (Alternatively, she could appoint Bill to the Supreme Court when the first opening occurs, which has also been suggested).

Many people, including many Democrats, are also disgusted at her desperate attempt to be all things to all people--on the illegal immigrant question, the question of attacking Iraq, the question of attacking Iran, etc. She imagines she can do this by straddling the fence on so many issues. All that proves is that she has the delusion she can calibrate the dead political center--and therefore have broad appeal. Wrong.

And the behavior of her staff- kindergarten, cocaine. etc.-- whether or not she then conveniently disowns the staff member in question, is unacceptable.

She is a prisoner of both the 60's and the 90's. Obama is neither--and someone who has taken and continues to take stands.


Obama has pointed out that Hillary has said that campaigning against other Democrats is "the fun part".   As he indicates, this sets the tone for her whole staff.   She already has an "enemies list"--and it seems to include the press, stupidly enough.

It's time for a change. And Hillary is not change.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:06 PM

The idea is being put out there by the media and even so-called progressive blogs, pundits etc. that Kucinich is unelectable. The people who are saying this are drinking media Kool-aid. He is the only really honest candidate on the issues. The rest are afraid of the Repubs.

Obama may have to seek a lot of advice because I don't see that he has any real plans
or ideas himself. Hillary is a corporate shill. Edwards still hasn't take military action against Iran off the table.

Dennis advocates 1. Bring troops home now, 2. Single-payer health care 3. A Department of Peace, 4. Control money spent on political elections, 5.Limit corporate greed through reinstituting some regulation, 6. Return Habeas-Corpus, 7. Repeal the Patriot Act,
8. Stop domestic spying by government agencies, 9. Diplomatic foreign policy not gunboat diplomacy, 10. Instant Run-off voting.11. No war in Iran

So what are these other candidates endorsing and what are their plans?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:53 PM

Does Iowa have a great concentration of students from out of state?

Otherwise, wouldn't things balance out, since there would presumably be local students who go to college elsewhere who would be coming home to Iowa for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:33 AM

Ron - You talk is if you think Hillary needs to be stopped. Would you be displeased if she were nominated?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:07 AM

Why will college students not be in Iowa during caucuses? Since if they are attending private schools (not state schools), many are from out of state--and will be home during the Christmas holidays. They will not be able to vote, unless they have arranged absentee voting, nor will they be able to ferry Obama supporters to the polls or do other work for him then.

So unless Hillary's campaign is going down in flames for other reasons, she will do well in Iowa--probably better than polls now indicate--since older women and union members, her strongest supporters, will still be in Iowa.

But if she does not for some reason win by a large margin, Obama and Edwards can team up afterwards and stop her.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:47 AM

That's what the pundits are saying. They think college aged students have been major participants in the caucuses in the past, but that this year--because the dates were moved up--they'll largely go home for Christmas, leaving the decision making to the right-wing Bible thumpers.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: mg
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:36 AM

Why would college students leave Iowa in the winter? No shortage of good state colleges and I can't think of huge private colleges where people would be drawn from all over. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:43 PM

One thing Obama is not dealing with, and Oprah isn't either, is the reality that ethnic division in the US is not black and white anymore. What is Obama's support from Latinos, and how does this affect other voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:18 PM

Amen, Alice. And far more pithy than my tome.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:02 PM

"...several things in what you imagine...."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Alice
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:59 PM

Maybe Obama will help us get past the label of black or white. He is a smart, talented man. Why label him by race. On and on people can label, but he was raised to be himself and to look beyond labels. It is time.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 10:30 PM

All you people who shed crocodile tears at the idea that a black man cannot be elected in 2008 are forgetting several things what you imagine to be your hard-nosed realism--but what is actually self-defeating cynicism.

1) Obama has already come further than any other black presidential candidate--if any poll can be believed. He is intelligent, thinks on his feet, and does not take the attitude that his candidacy is part of "reparations". He's just an excellent candidate who happens to be black. And who may be able to light a fire under young voters--and others-- not seen since JFK.

2) Hillary is self-destructing---proving more every day, with every leak, planned or not, from her campaign, that she is part of the old slimy adversarial politics--that her claim to bring "change" is the feeblest of facades.

3) Whoever the Democratic candidate is, there will only be one Republican to run against. If you think Giuliani can win, exactly how? If Romney, how? McCain is the best Republican--but with his immigration stance--i.e. a reasonable person-- and his insufficient tax-cutting zeal, he has no chance for the Republican nomination.

So any of the current top Democrats has an excellent chance--Obama or Edwards the best chance (or both on the same ticket)

Believe it or not, smug cynicism is not always the best political stance.

Obama's only large problem in Iowa, as I've noted before, is that his strongest supporters are young voters--and the caucus will take place during the Christmas break, when those college students will not be in Iowa. Whereas Hillary's strongest supporters are older women--who will still be in Iowa--and tend to vote in large numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:56 PM

You know...I can well believe that enough of the same people who voted for Bush...*TWICE* will vote for ANY Republican...and if enough others simply vote against Clinton or Obama based on sex or color, we could have a Guliani or Huckabee get in.
I don't 'think' it will get that bad, but the Republicans are way too good at digging up dirt, whether it is true or not, and appealing to various special interests like gun nuts, anti-abortion activists and flag wavers, that it scares me. Even Republicans are having a hard time finding a candidate they really LIKE...but that won't keep them from voting for one...no matter how the war is going.

In many ways, Edwards might be the 'most electable', but *shrug*...I doubt we'll get to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:42 PM

I'm not so sure that this is not on a cusp of change; and he is certainly the right man to make the change if it is possible to do it.

The notion that Americas would not elect someone of a certain color is less and less true in COngressional elections, after all, and mayoral elections.

I would not count on it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:35 PM

"...won't vote for him because they're afraid a white supremacist will off him."

                      The way security is today, I think that would be very hard to do. Unless they looked the other way, like say, with Kennedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: GUEST,Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:34 PM

Sure...go ahead vote for him.

We'll thank you in November.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: mg
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:29 PM

What cowards they (the voters) are then. He has addressed the issue, and his wife has addressed the issue. That should suffice. Vote for him anyway. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Alice
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:10 PM

I think Edwards is the most electable against any of the Repubs, but the more I see of Obama, the more I like him. Gawd save us from Hillary.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:08 PM

I think middle America will be more willing to vote for a man than a woman, regardless of colour.

As to the video -

The derisive laughter, especially from Hillary, shows how 'catty' and nasty she can be. People who try to make themselves look good by laughing at others, usually succeed in making themselves look foolish. In this case, Obama was very wise not to take offense but to answer with a little wit. Thats the kind of intelligence that is needed in the White House.

Hillary is just part of the old guard who are power hungry and arrogant. She may be very, very politically smart but socially, she is very unconnected to the needs of the citizens. She's been in the ivory tower far too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:04 PM

"intelligent, likeable, moderate, direct, rational, humorous, and caring"...

Name the last president who was elected on those traits.

I'm afraid the last few posters have a tenuous grip on reality concerning the mindset of the majority of Americans. Yes, McGrath, they really are that messed up.

Riginslinger -- the answer is Edwards (not that I like the guy - he's a millionaire trial lawyer, fer fuxakes).

If Clinton or Obama end up being the Dem nominee, 51% of voters will see past any flaws in the Repubs, and elect a shitheel like Giuliani, or a nut job like Romney.

Mark my words.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 08:56 PM

"...only the most dyed-in-the-wool racists will vote against him on color alone. And who needs them, anyway?"

                      Obama does, if there's enough of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 08:49 PM

Once America gets to know Barack Obama, I think he will be imminently electable, because he is intelligent, likeable, moderate, direct, rational, humorous, and caring enough that only the most dyed-in-the-wool racists will vote against him on color alone. And who needs them, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:02 PM

The general feeling, even among Republicans, is that as long as he or she is breathing, the Democratic candidate is going to be elected. That's why the only Republicans who are running are folks who are considered to be unelectable.

If we have learned nothing else in the last number of Presidential elections, it that anyone who is elected to public office in Massachussetts is, of necessity, way to liberal for even moderates in the rest of the country. Sorry, Mitt--

And, sorry Rudy, but that "New Yorker" attitude doesn't work for anyone South of Staten Island.

As for Mike Huckabee, when there is pandemic revulsion at the role that the religious right has played in washington--How much chance does Baptist minister from Arkansas, whose claim to fame is that he is an "Authentic"conservative" have?

Fred Thompson was supposed sweep in and rally the party behind him because he is both a conservative and an actor, just like the Beloved Ronnie--but if you've seen "Law and Order" you know that he's not much of an actor--

And then there's Ron Paul, the Republican Dennis Kucinich--he says all the right things, and still can't get anyone to vote for him--

And then there is Alan Keyes, who, as a trained operatic singer, is the Republican answer to Al Sharpton. Rather than running for president, he seems to be auditioning for the role of Mephistopheles.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:08 PM

At this time, there's (sadly) no way middle America will elect a black man or a woman.

They really are that messed up? Depressing thought. If they are, I think it's as well that we knew it for certain, so that'd be another reason for Obama to be the candidate.

I suppose the same goes for Clinton - but I suspect that it wouldn't primarily be her sex that might put a lot of people off voting for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 05:45 PM

I don't think a Republican candidate is likely to win, unless it's McCain against anybody who isn't Clinton, Obama or Edwards. Most of the Repub candidates seem to have some fatal flaw, some bizarre little thorn that will gather detritus until they splinter and come apart. They seem more extremist than the Republicans of older times. Then again, I think the whole party's become more extreme while the Democrats are becoming less so.

Kucinich has good ideas, but so do a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily make a good president.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:57 PM

I get so angry when I meet 18 year olds who don't vote. They could change the entire direction of the country if they used the power they have. Look what they have done to the Movie and Music industries.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

If half the people who never vote were to be persuaded, for any reason, to register and participate in the process, there's no telling who might possibly be elected ~ even a biracial transsexual, if any such person actually wanted the office.

But since that's unlikely to happen, MichaelR's point is probably well-taken. I like Edwards for a number of reasons, one being the electability factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

Michael - Which democrat do you think would have the best chance in the general election?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:39 PM

And I still maintain that if the Dems nominate either Clinton or Obama, we'll have another 4 years of Republican presidency. At this time, there's (sadly) no way middle America will elect a black man or a woman.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:36 PM

Something underhanded happened in Iowa when Kucinich was excluded from the debate on the flimsiest of pretexts.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 01:53 PM

I still think, the way things are in America, if Obama gets the nomination, we'll end up with another Republican president.
                  I think something underhanded happened in Iowa last time that took Howard Dean out of contention and left the Dems with Kerry, a very beatable candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 01:41 PM

Amos-

To "smoke" something used to mean in the Napoleonic period to be able to determine its true meaning. At least that's how Patrick O'Brian used the term in his Capt. Aubrey series.

You could also "smoke" a ground hog out of its den, if you lived down in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Then there'd be the question of how much "ground round a hound dog could hog if a groundhog was ground round."

Obama will make a fine vice president for Edwards.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 01:25 PM

research: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mfuckina.html says 1947 is 1st recorded print version...spelled "ay" by Norman Mailer.

I heard it in 1970 as "aye" and knew immediately what it meant. Obviously, some form was used, as the article says, in WWII or before. I, frankly, am not willing to believe that it originated as "A", and later transformed to "aye" by a few.

The exact answer may never be known, but unless one IS found, I will continue to claim that 'aye' makes sense and is a more likely original.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 12:42 PM

Something I like about Obama - politicians have a tendency to read from memorized scripts, and I haven't noticed him doing that yet. You ask them a question about one thing and they think it's an excuse to work in the prepared 'answer' and they seem to believe no one will notice they never answered the question. Pay attention, and you'll see it. We can talk about policies elsewhere. I like Obama because he doesn't have that air of insincerity that so many candidates affect. Hillary's got it, GWB has it, and Blair was saturated with it. Obama doesn't, and Edwards strikes me as being pretty sincere as well.

A candidate who doesn't need a prepared answer but speaks his own thoughts about a specific issue is already a step up on the competition. RB, you see it as a witticism; I see it as evidence of a functioning brain.

Bill, it's ALWAYS been 'fuckin' A'. If you can find some hard evidence of fuckin' AYE being used prior to the animated film 'Fritz the Cat', let me know. That's where I thought it started.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 12:21 PM

So are we looking at Huckabee versus Obama in the general election?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 12:15 PM

Pwn'd, as discussed above, has no common etymology with "pawns" or "peopns" -- it is a broken down version of "own" which is in turn a jargon of recent coinage describing conquest or humiliation of a competitor.

Cf. "To smoke" someone, still in circulation, which (I believe) derives from truckers' CB slang. Cf. "to blow one's doors off". Or perhaps from Vietnam-era military slang, where the meaning is more literal.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 12:04 PM

Why in the world is he parading around with Oprah Winfrey? Why is the Butter Queen from the local County Fair making recorded calls on his behalf in Iowa?
I don't get it?
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:44 AM

Why not? We've been choosing them by height and length of name for years! At least it DOES show some mental agility.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:39 AM

It causes me to be concerned that a nation might choose its leader by reason of such facile witticisms.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Wins Debate Moment With Hillary
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:36 AM

Graham-

Well, I'm willing to "concede" that you are correct with the origin of the term.

I did find the coincidence amusing.

Charley Noble