Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 05:26 AM

It's not fishy, JM: I'm not into fishing but somehow heard about and checked out this book, The Complete Angler, for it's verses, and it did indeed make several references to unaccompanied singing for a fish or two. So that was in the 17th century, and I also mentioned the Joseph Taylor recordings when someone asked for some concrete evidence about the many centuries of UA singing I mentioned above. It's not I, JM, who is deluding himself.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 03 May 08 - 05:05 AM

"There's about-a-hundred-years-old recordings of the Englishman Joseph Taylor singing unaccompanied in the EFDSS"

Joseph Taylor was recorded in Lincolnshire by the composer Percy Grainger over several visits between 1906 and 1908. The famous recordings (released by the Gramophone company in 1908) of him were actually done at studios in London. Graingers friend Delius also used them as the basis for his piece 'Unto Brigg Fair' for full orchestra, which Taylor was at the premiere of and was reportedly very proud of.

None of this gives any validity to your earlier point. And I'm not sure what 'the compleat angler' has to do with anything.

"I've also read and heard on TV documentaries that in the 17th century there was an English cittern in nearly every barber-shop and tavern in England "

Well it must be true then...

The problem here is that there are more than a few people on this board who have devoted their life's work to research of traditional music and customs. In another thread you used something you saw about Bob Copper on TV to argue a point against people who knew him well. Now you are trying to use an irrelevant piece of information about Joseph Taylor (which you haven't even got correct) in front of people who are experts in their fields.

Drop it. You are not doing yourself any favours.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 04:10 AM

Isaac Walton, The Complete Angler (1653).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 May 08 - 03:56 AM

There's about-a-hundred-years-old recordings of the Englishman Joseph Taylor singing unaccompanied in the EFDSS, and I once had a quick look at an English book on fishing? from a few centuries ago where folks would, indeed, sing for their supper unaccompanied. Perhaps others could confirm the name of the book and mention other sources...I've heard several say it, since I got into folk four years ago.
But, to question myself (again, in a way that has not yet been answered in these threads), I've also read and heard on TV documentaries that in the 17th century there was an English cittern in nearly every barber-shop and tavern in England, used to accompany songs; so, if not folk-songs, what songs?..early barber-shop songs..? A period musician came onto a period "reality" programme with cittern and feather plectrum...for playing the top-line melody (embellished)?
Rounds - I've had a brief taste at 1 or 2 singarounds but wasn't so keen...maybe it wasn't done that well on these occasions?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 03 May 08 - 03:53 AM

The Albanian video is a fairly extreme example of the sort of vocal heterophony that emerges when people sing together; as Poppygator pointed out, people are incapable of singing in unison! Some would call this polyphony, but when one thinks of polyphony one invariable thinks of orchestration, and this is so much more immediate than that somehow. This isn't to say these Guy's don't rehearse, on the contrary, just that it comes out of something living rather than written down, or else composed.

Doo-wop emerged on the streets of Chicago in much the same way, and there's no reason to believe that it was any different with sea-shanties or chorus songs in the English tradition. We hear it in the singing of The Coppers, The Watersons, The Wilsons and we heard it in The Young Tradition too; it's certainly there in Shape-Note Singing and other English speaking traditions, so why wouldn't it be there in the carolling of yore?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:34 PM

No problem , whatever label you use Captain !

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 08:00 PM

It's not adapting the tradition Leadfingers, it's developing it.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:53 PM

Nic Jones strong point was the interesting guitar part he used to accompany what had , for the MOST part , been unaccompanied song !
I dont see any problem in adapting the tradition if that is what turns you on , any more than I would object to someone singing a song exactly as it was collected !

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:13 PM

Can someone tell me why it matters how things were done in the past?

Surely communication of the songs is paramount. I notice you don't use a quill pen and ink to preach your message WAV.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:07 PM

I like hearing chords although for example I'm not sure whether I prefer this accompaniment or this one to the same tune (the Swedish Jig bit).

--
From a playing tunes in a session point of view, I really do like a guitar playing chords in with the tunes - a good one can really help keep things together and give a clear rhythm to follow.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: JeffB
Date: 02 May 08 - 07:02 PM

Wow! Viper, that's wild! It's been a long time since I've heard singing that prickled the hairs on the back of my neck quite like that. Thanks very much indeed.
A top-line melody might sound great on its own, but put in a snarly dissonant drone and you've got a very different animal.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:59 PM

Have you ever sung any rounds? They've been around for centuries, and the reason for them is the chords.

There was a chap who printed book(s) of rounds in England in the 1600's. The name eludes me now, but the rounds were great hits and went through many printings. They are still being sung today.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:56 PM

"It's widely accepted that for centuries it didn't change much - singing unaccompanied, repeating a tune for dance"

Really? Widely accepted amongst whom? Certainly not amongst music academics.

Cite your sources.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 06:34 PM

I absolutely cannot believe that people never sang in harmony in the "good old days." Of course, I can't prove my point ~ but neither can those who hold the opposite opinion.

One thing that I do believe is that common people throughout the ages, when they sang and/or played music for their own enjoyment, did not concern themselves with arguments over whether or not their performances authentically duplicated those of their ancestors.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:43 PM

It's widely accepted that for centuries it didn't change much - singing unaccompanied, repeating a tune for dance; and, I think, not just because there was not much other entertainment available to these folk, or the pride that they took in their tradition, but because just the top-line melody played or sung well sounds great.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:36 PM

And watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Y_tuSsCXw

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:29 PM

Here's a word for you, WAV - heterophony

Look it up.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:22 PM

And open field farming sustained the peasants for centuries while the nobles ate lavishly. I don't think I'd like to go back to a diet of maize, oats and turnips.

I can't understand this argument that traditional music must be played as it was centuries ago. Traditions by their very nature grow and develop and take on the influences of the time. If they do not live they are not traditions.

So bring on the chords, the electric instruments, the brass, the jazz synchopation, the Asian and African textures and rhythms. These are the influences of our times. Enjoy it and celebrate it for crying out loud. Don't pickle it!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:17 PM

It's the polyphonic, choral trousers that are the real problem.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:16 PM

I'm quite sure there was/is call-and-response in shanties, PG, but, again, I think it would have been just the relatively-simple tune...they were often working to the rhythm as well, yes?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 08 - 05:01 PM

I feel pretty strongly that tunes/melodies include implied chords (harmonic structure) whether or not any such "arrangements" were ever written, and whether or not instrumental accompaniment (or even additonal vocals) is present for a given rendition. That's just the way I hear music.

It might be argued that my sense of musicality is influenced by the fact that I play guitar, but I didn't take up the playng of that very "chordal" instrument until I was a teenager. I had been singing harmonies for many years before then, and the sense of finding a "correct" or fitting harmony definitely implies a simple chord structure.

One pedantic argument that really annoys me is that sea shanties could never have been sung otherwise than in unison. First of all, no recordings exist that could possibly support or refute this ridiculous assertion. Secondly, my observation of general group singing among living people is that some folks are incapable of singing in usision with others. I can't imagine that a group of sailors would not include a member of two singing an expressive but dissonant countermelody, and several others improviding some sort of more cenventional harmony, if only because their voices couldn't reach the notes required to sing in true unison.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:59 PM

So now chordal harmony is destroying civilization?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:47 PM

No, Captain, I think I'll just keep singing and playing the TOP-LINE MELODY, and enjoying the performances of those folk who do the same.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:38 PM

Times change - live with it!

Subject: Strike a Chord?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 May 08 - 04:13 PM

"English folk-music, for centuries, has entertained folks, with telling &/or dancing, via the repetition of relatively simple TUNES." (me)...polyphony and chords were found, rather, in church and court..?