BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:58 PM

And you know this HOW, Doug?

Unless you DO have evidence, that's the kind of rumor/remark that starts problems in the first place.

Many, many LIES....that's **LIES**....have been told about Acorn in the last year, and the few true items were not serious enough to cause this. This is a case of 'guilt by innuendo'.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM

ACORN is not going out of business. It's just going through a name change in hopes of again being able to rip off money from the government.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:15 PM

It's small wonder considering how complicit the news media has been in propagating the lies about ACORN that caused the withdrawal of their funding. The young woman in the videos even has admitted that the guy was not posing as a pimp in the ACORN offices. They were posing as a woman who was trying to escape an abusive relationship and her friend who was trying to help her. The fiction about the pimp and prostitute was added later, when they were not in the ACORN offices.

I hope the guy who made those videos goes to jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:40 AM

ACORN's been succesfully Swiftboated. Big surprise.

Not sure that this should surprise anyone- just because yanking their funding is unconstitutional and the video in question was a patched-together fraud and a lie?

That's what Rove & the BuShites do- and are proud of.

God Help America

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:28 AM

"Honesty won't get you the house."

ACORN disbanding because of money woes, scandal

AP CHICAGO   The once mighty community activist group ACORN announced Monday it is folding amid falling revenues six months after video footage emerged showing some of its workers giving tax tips to conservative activists posing as a pimp and prostitute.

"It's really declining revenue in the face of a series of attacks from partisan operatives and right-wing activists that have taken away our ability to raise the resources we need," ACORN spokesman Kevin Whelan said.

Several of its largest affiliates, including ACORN New York and ACORN California, broke away this year and changed their names in a bid to ditch the tarnished image of their parent organization and restore revenue that ran dry in the wake of the video scandal.

ACORN's financial situation and reputation went into free fall within days of the videos' release in September. Congress reacted by yanking ACORN's federal funding, private donors held back cash and scores of ACORN offices closed.

Earlier this month, a U.S. judge reiterated an earlier ruling that the federal law blacklisting ACORN and groups allied with it was unconstitutional because it singled them out. But that didn't mean any money would be automatically be restored.

Bertha Lewis, the CEO of ACORN, which stands for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, alluded to financial hardships in a weekend statement as the group's board prepared to deliberate by phone.

"ACORN has faced a series of well-orchestrated, relentless, well-funded right wing attacks that are unprecedented since the McCarthy era," she said. "The videos were a manufactured, sensational story that led to rush to judgment and an unconstitutional act by Congress."

ACORN's board decided to close remaining state affiliates and field offices by April 1 because of falling revenues, with some national operations will continue operating for at least several weeks before shutting for good, Whelan said Monday.

For years, ACORN could draw on 400,000 members to lobby for liberal causes, such as raising the minimum wage or adopting universal health care. ACORN was arguably most successful at registering hundreds of thousands of low-income voters, though that mission was dogged by fraud allegations, including that some workers submitted forms signed by 'Mickey Mouse' or other cartoon characters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 11:25 PM

Yes, it looks like he's totally become honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 10:24 PM

"I'm not just reporting on something, I'm becoming something I'm reporting on," said O'Keefe.

Looks like he was definitely right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 10:17 PM

Well Well Well.

Looks like O'Keefe might be a crook after all. He has definitely done overdid it this time:

CBS January 26, 2010

James O'Keefe, ACORN Foe, Arrested for New Stunt

James O'Keefe was riding high last year when he released a series of videos showing employees of community-organizing group ACORN offering advice to O'Keefe and a friend that seemed to endorse trafficking in children, among other illegal activities.

The undercover videos made O'Keefe a star in conservative circles and presumably helped him muster the courage for another high profile stunt – though this time, it seems, things went badly for the 25-year-old.

O'Keefe and three others – including the son of an acting U.S. Attorney, are accused of trying to manipulate the phones in Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu's office in New Orleans. According to an release from the United States Attorney's Office, witnesses say O'Keefe was in Landrieu's office when two co-conspirators came in "dressed in blue denim pants, a blue work shirt, a light green fluorescent vest, a tool belt and a construction-style hard hat" and pretended to be there to repair the phones. (Here's the affidavit.)

O'Keefe allegedly filmed the men handling the main reception-area phone in the senator's office with a cell-phone camera. The faux-repairmen, who are believed to have been attempting to tap the phones, then asked for access to the telephone closet to work on the main telephone system; asked for identification after being directed there, they said they had left their credentials in their vehicle.

The four men – O'Keefe, the two fake telephone repairman, and another alleged co-conspirator – are now "charged in a criminal complaint with entering federal property under false pretenses for the purpose of committing a felony, announced the United States Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Louisiana." They could face up to ten years in prison and a fine of $250,000.

The men had an initial appearance this afternoon in court, where they were released on a $10,000 UN-secured bond. A preliminary hearing has been set for February 12th, though that will be cancelled if an indictment is filed before then. Landrieu's office declined comment, citing the ongoing investigation.

O'Keefe, a former Rutgers University student, has a history of stunts that predates his ACORN hidden-camera work: According to the Star-Ledger, he "mounted a satirical campaign to ban Lucky Charms cereal from campus dining halls on the premise the breakfast fare was offensive to Irish-Americans" as a student.

He told the newspaper the tone of his videos, which include an investigation of Planned Parenthood, is unique.

"I'm not just reporting on something, I'm becoming something I'm reporting on," said O'Keefe.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM

It was reported in today's newspaper that ACORN had completed it's internal investigation of itself and found no criminal wrong doing.

Surprise, surprise, surprise.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:34 AM

Yeah ACORN sucks, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:02 PM

Maybe you could summerize some of that, Sawz!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Moyer v ACORN transcript:

...is ACORN a membership organization? Yes. How does that work? The members pay dues out of their checking account, so an organizer will go out into the field, door knock, get a member to sign up. The goal is to get them to enter their If checking account information so they can do direct debit. not, they'll come by and collect payments from the -Q Let's just break this down a bit. If you were an ACORN organizer and I was a member of your community and you approached me, would I pay you monthly to become a member? A Q A $30. Q Would that be -- was there an encouragement by the Yes. How much would I pay? It would depend. I've heard anywhere from ten to organization to have a direct deposit out of my checking account? A Q Yes. And were there problems with those direct withdrawals from checking accounts? A Q A Yes. And what were the problems? Sometimes I would answer the phones or I would be I was always manning the faxes in the D.C. local office. hanging around. And I remember overhearing about members that were calling in -MS. SIMPSON: Objection, hearsay. Not offered for the truth of the MS. HEIDELBAUGH: matter asserted. Offered for the organization's lack of organization in regard to keeping funds and also the membership status. MS. SIMPSON: we're here. MS. HEIDELBAUGH: THE COURT: I'll move on. It's also irrelevant. That's not why Very well. I'll move on. MS. HEIDELBAUGH: BY MS. HEIDELBAUGH: Q Have you been intimidated in regard to your coming here today? MS. SIMPSON: THE COURT: Objection, asked and answered. Overruled. Yes. I was asked to back down, and I THE WITNESS: was told that they were bringing their big guns for me and, you know, it would be best for everyone if I just didn't testify. BY MS. HEIDELBAUGH: Q A Q Are you frightened? Yes. Why did you decide to go ahead if you're frightened? A Because someone needed to do it. This is a very important time in ACORN's history. this is going to sound so stupid. They're on the -- and But I really do feel like   they're ready to where they can be a really great organization but there's people that are digging their heels in and they're fighting the truth. And the truth is the only thing that's going to make this all go away, not another coverup. And I don't like to be threatened. be backed into a corner. afraid. I don't like to I'm not -- I don't like to be And so I realized I'd like to just tell the truth. I can either stay in the corner and be scared and, you know, hiding at my mom's house or I can come out and get in front of everybody. Q This is a little out of order, but when a fraudulent voter registration card is found, is there an attempt in the organization to try to fix it? And if so, how does that whole thing work, and can you tie in the money in regard to that? A From what I understand, there's a project called Project -- Project Fix Error where they contact bad cards, whether they be from ACORN or whoever submitted the cards. They try to find out the type of information that is needed to get this person on the rolls. And from what I also understand, Democracy Alliance was approached or is funding this project. Q All right. Now, does ACORN seek additional donors to fix the bad registrations that they know they already have to get additional money? A Well, that's what's happening. But they're saying because they're getting cards from everywhere, they're not just fixing ACORN's bad cards. They're fixing any bad cards to make sure that these people get on the rolls. MS. HEIDELBAUGH: have for this witness. That's all the questions that I At this time, I would move for the admission of the documents that I have presented to the witness which were moved without objection, I believe, Your Honor. THE COURT: inclusive? MR. MASLAND: THE COURT: No, Your Honor. Any objections to Exhibits 1 through 4 They're received. (Exhibits Nos. P-1 through P-4 were admitted into evidence.) THE COURT: All right. We're going to take a brief break ....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:10 PM

In early October 2008 my office was flooded with reports that Northwest Indiana ACORN dropped approximately 5,000 voter registration applications at the lake County Voter Registration Office during the last few days, even hours, of the voter registration period of the 2008 General Election. Many of these forms appeared to the Lake County Board of Elections and Registration to be suspicious, incomplete, or unverifiable. Officials at the county voter registration reported that there was hardly enough time to adequately verify the information on the applications, but that on quick review, thousands of the applications appeared invalid.

Rokita's office studied copies of 1,483 of the flagged applications and found that 88 percent of the names could not be verified. 61 percent had one or more critical defects rendering them invalid or useless. 26 percent showed evidence that a third party assisted, corrected or altered required data and 22 percent appeared to be multiple applications prepared by the same individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM

The documents contain fliers announcing programs that bring people into the ACORN offices for the first time. "ACORN is working with CitiBank to help homeowners avoid foreclosure," one flier read.

Anita MonCrief, a former ACORN employee and whistleblower, testified that unsuspecting individuals would come to ACORN for help, fill out a form that included their banking information, not understanding that they were agreeing to a $10 per month membership fee auto-debit from their bank account.

"They did not understand what they were signing," MonCrief said.

There were printouts in the released documentation of member data forms that included the banking information, and there were handwritten notes, emails and snail mail repeatedly demanding that ACORN stop auto-debiting $10 a month from their bank account.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:44 PM

You brought "Negative consent" into the discussion. You explain it.

"the way the people who made the tapes want us to think it happened."

Is a pre-judgment the say that they "want us to think" a certain way when there is no proof.


What is it that you know for certain, without any proof, trials, convictions or sentances that they "want us to think"?

Whom, other than you, are in this group known as "us"?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:22 AM

That was the dreaded 666 post...

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:31 AM

Most of the really poor people I know don't have bank accounts. It was part of the laughable "de-regulation of banking." If you overdraw your checking account and you can't get the money together to make a deposit in a certain amount of time, the bank closes the account, comes after you for the negative balance--adding a lot of fees along the way--and then puts you on a list so you can never open another account anywhere else.

               Even if the people on the tapes did everything their accusers are saying they did, I don't see how they broke any laws.

               That having been said, those executives who stole money from the organization should be in jail, along with the ones who promoted voter fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:09 AM

I don't see where you have been accused of anything but prejudging the undercover people while demanding that ACORN should not be prejudged and that matters.

Pre-judging would be if I said we know they falsified the tape, so we don't need to see any more evidence. It's not a pre-judgment to say that we can't determine whether or not the accusations by the people who made the videos are true until we see the rest of the evidence. Which is what I am and have been saying. The only pre-judging that is being done is by you and those who think we can make a judgment about the guilt of the ACORN workers in the videos before we have seen all of the evidence.


Please explain "negative consent", and show us the evidence that they used this tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:17 AM

ACORN debits bank accounts of the poor

    This is an organization touted to care about the poor rather than make the poor poorer...

Have you ever had automatic debits taken from your account without your active consent? The oldest marketing scam in the world, negative consent, was used by ACORN. This took advantage of the poor they are supposed to be helping.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:44 PM

With ACORN Paying The Salaries, The Progressive America Fund Providing The Framework And The Working Families Organization Paying For Lobbying, The Working Families Party Expands Nationwide

With the 2009 New York City election results, the Working Families Party proved itself the most potent new political force in the city and state. But the success has been building for years—as has an ongoing effort by leaders of the Working Families in New York to expand the party's reach around the country.

Together with like-minded activists in other states, they have poured money, effort and inspiration into the Missouri Working Families Committee, the Connecticut Working Families Party, the Oregon Working Families Party, the Washington Working Families Coalition, the Massachusetts Working Families Organization, the South Carolina Working Families Party, a Maine Working Families effort, the Delaware Working Families Party, the New Jersey Working Families Alliance, the California Working Families Party and the Nevada Working Families Party—all of which have risen and fallen in various forms in recent years. And the Vermont Working Families Party is about to start coming together, with several town caucuses already underway.

According to multiple interviews with the people involved in other states, the expansion of Working Families parties has been overseen by Dan Cantor, the executive director of the Working Families Party and Working Families Organization, and Larry Moskowitz, the national labor coordinator for the New York WFP.

Moskowitz also serves as a WFP state committeeman from Upper Manhattan and has been listed as a contact for the Progressive America Fund on tax forms filed with other organizations.

Moskowitz was also one of the people listed as assisting a January 2008 report by the Progressive America Fund's subsidiary, the National Open Ballot Project, entitled, "Technical and Cost Considerations of 'Fusion Voting' in Oregon and Maine." Listed with him as assisting with the report are Joanne Wright, a former ACORN employee who was the treasurer of the Progressive America Fund, and Clare Crawford, the ACORN deputy political director for national organizing who not long after the report came out identified herself in government testimony in Oregon as the national director of the National Open Ballot Project.

That report lists a National Open Ballot Project advisory board which includes Bertha Lewis, who is the CEO of ACORN, a co-chair of the Working Families Party, an initial director of the Working Families Organization and a former treasurer of the Progressive America Fund. Also on the advisory board is Melissa Mark-Viverito, a former Service Employees International Union (SEIU)organizer who had WFP and ACORN support in her 2005 election and 2009 re-election bids to the New York City Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:41 PM

-- A former Las Vegas supervisor for the political advocacy group ACORN was sentenced Monday to up to three years' probation for his role in a plan to pay canvassers to register Nevada voters during last year's presidential campaign.

Christopher Edwards pleaded guilty in August to two gross misdemeanor charges of conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters. He testified in September that ACORN canvassers making $8 per hour were paid bonuses of $5 per shift if they turned in 21 or more voter registration cards.



Edwards is expected to be a star witness at an April trial for ACORN and a former regional director, Amy Busefink.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 09:44 PM

"So am I being accused of having said that the ACORN workers in the video did nothing wrong or not?"

I don't see where you have been accused of anything but prejudging the undercover people while demanding that ACORN should not be prejudged and that matters.


There are thousands of organizations that do what ACORN claims it does. They go about their business quietly and correctly without causing a controversy. Acorn is making the good organizations look bad.

I think ACORN blows it's own horn about how great it is, covers up it's own corruption even front it's own board, collects dues from it's poor members and shakes down businesses for protection money like the Mafia. All they want is more and more money. Then they play an Enron style shell game with the money through their 300+ entities. If ACORN is so benign, why won't Bertha open the books?

Take that money being given to ACORN and give it to reputable organizations that do it right. Then more of it will actually benefit the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 07:56 AM

Even if the employees did everything they tape makers say they did--and I think they did exactly that--what laws were broken, and what charges could be made to try them in court?

               The people who need to be prosecuted are the ones who embezzled the non-profit's funds, and those who worked to cover up the embezzlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:30 AM

Doesn't matter whether or not I am judging their motives. All that matters is that we don't have any evidence that would stand up in a court of law that the ACORN employees did what the people who made the video say they did. That's all that matters, because they are the ones who are being accused by the people who made the video, and it is that, and whether or not any punitive action should be taken against ACORN that are the subjects of this discussion.

It doesn't matter one bit what I think of the people who made the video. The only thing that matters is whether or not they have any valid evidence of the things they are accusing the ACORN employees of doing. So far we have not seen any.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 11:00 PM

Horrors. What a terrible thing it is to say "I don't know"!
What hypocrisy! What a pathetic lack of self-righteous certainty!
How can you not reach a definitive conclusion from an edited tape?
You partisan hack!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:39 PM

So am I being accused of having said that the ACORN workers in the video did nothing wrong or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM

I can't find any words accusing you of saying the workers did nothing wrong on those dates.

You make conflicting statements such as:

"the way the people who made the tapes want "us" (whomever us includes) to think it happened." as if it is a fact that they wanted "us" to think it happened a certain way, whatever way that might be, different from the way it actually happened.

You have prejudged these people by claiming they want "us" to think it was different from what happened. You have convicted them of "bad behavior".

but you say "that judgments shouldn't be made until the results of the investigations are reported."

This is nothing but a bigoted, straw man, us against them argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:58 PM

And one of the times I was accused of saying they did nothing wrong was after I said that they did do something wrong, but not necessarily what was in the tapes.

I think someone is just trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

20 Oct 09 - 09:27 AM

18 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:54 PM

21 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:30 PM

Please show me where I have said that you said the accused employees never did anything wrong.

Bertha must have decided they did something wrong and fired them.

And yes, the tape is questionable but how does that prove the undercover people did anything wrong? How does that prove that it is not representative of what actually happened? You are prejudging them, the same way you claim others are prejudging ACORN.


Bertha Lewis:You know what? I have to thank, I have to thank the undercover folks because they sort of did us a good service...


BLITZER: All right, that was in the Baltimore office of...

LEWIS: right.

BLITZER: ...of acorn.

What -- where -- where was that doctored or edited, if you will?

LEWIS: well, first of all, you didn't see the entire unedited version. You saw a very small clip. Also, you see...

BLITZER: but was that little unedited clip accurate?

LEWIS: and that little -- that little piece that we saw, this was...

BLITZER: did that woman cooperate with this sting operation?

LEWIS: that -- well, first of all, she never filed out anything. But that woman was terminated immediately. This is just not with our values. And whether or not they were duped or stupid doesn't matter. That kind of thing cannot go on. This is why people were terminated quite quickly. And this is why we are instituting...

BLITZER: so...

LEWIS: ...a top to bottom review. BLITZER: so you say they actually did you a favor, these -- these filmmakers -- by going out there and finding these bad apples. But you want...

LEWIS: (INAUDIBLE).

BLITZER: in the past, your people have suggested you want to sue these guys. LEWIS: well, here's the thing. In certain states, you can only tape people with their permission. You have to have both parties.

BLITZER: on telephone calls.

LEWIS: and telephone calls, too.

BLITZER: on telephone calls.

But could you...

LEWIS: but not in video. And...

BLITZER: you can't go in?

LEWIS: and in Maryland, you can't do this audio at all. So our lawyers are looking to go after Mr. O'Keefe, who has done this before and admits he is a right-wing conservative videographer who does things like this.

And, you know, we are going to make sure that all of the tapes get out and have -- and seek to stop this kind of thing.

BLITZER: are you open to an external review right now, because there's talk not only of federal, but state and local authorities -- they want to investigate acorn and find what else is going on given all this commotion.

LEWIS: well, ever since last year these kinds of things have come up, you know...

BLITZER: but now the FBI director says he's -- Robert Mueller, he's open -- he -- he's thinking about an investigation.

LEWIS: well, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But here's...

BLITZER: Mayor Bloomberg of New York says this Brooklyn operation...

LEWIS: and we will -- well...

BLITZER: ...he wants -- he wants an investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 04:36 PM

The tape is quite obviously edited. There are breaks in the action (missing sequences). That is editing. All of the footage is not there. Some of it is missing. That's not disputable. What we don't know is what is on the parts that are missing, and we don't know for sure what the people posing as the pimp and prostitute were saying for sure because we can't see their mouths while they are speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM

The tape wasn't edited!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

OMG.
No.
The point is that a heavily edited tape is not evidence of anything.
Is that so hard to "get a grip" on?
Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 12:47 AM

Please show me where I have said that the accused employees never did anything wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM

"The possibility renders your "evidence" worthless."

I haven't produced any evidence. You haven't produced any evidence.

What the hell does Rush Limbaugh have to do with the validity of these tapes? Someone altered a tape of him and that means the undercover people did the same? Get a grip.

"they were giving advice about how to report income" So now CC says Acorn did do something wrong with out waiting to see the outcome.

How can you twist things around so far as to say Acorn did something wrong but thier funding should not be cut off because there is no evidence they did anything wrong?

There are thousands of organizations that do what ACORN claims it does. They go about their business quietly and correctly without causing a controversy. Acorn is making the good organizations look bad.

ACORN blows it's own horn about how great it is, covers up it's own corruption even front it's own board, collects dues from it's poor members and shakes down businesses for protection money like the Mafia does. All they want is more and more money. Then they play an Enron style shell game with the money through their 300+ entities.

Take that money and give it to reputable organizations that do it right. Then more of it will actually benefit the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 11:39 PM

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. My own opinion is that it's too early to tell whether or not funding for ACORN should be cut off, and that investigations into the matter are entirely appropriate, but that judgments shouldn't be made until the results of the investigations are reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM

I think the ACORN people did what was shown on the tapes, but what did they do that one could prosecute for. The did a lot of things that should get their funding cut off, but nothing for which to be prosecuted.

               The people at the top who stole the money should be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

"Tia says anyone can do anything but the possibility does not make evidence. That is about the flimsiest proof I can imagine."

No. The possibility renders your "evidence" worthless.

Or would you similarly argue that the Limbaugh song I linked to is a completely accurate depiction of him? Because the *possibility* of it being a cut and paste job does not negate the evidence, right?

I think you are greatly confused about burden of proof issues in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 10:18 AM

And, as I have said repeatedly, I didn't say they did nothing wrong. I am saying we don't have any proof that they were actually told that the people who we are told were posing as a pimp and a prostitute actually told them that, and we don't know that they told them they were going to start a child sex slave ring. As of right now, we have no proof of those things.

They were fired because we do know that they were giving advice about how to report income that they shouldn't have been giving. But that is not the same issue as whether or not they were under the impression that they were talking to a pimp and a prostitute who were planning on starting a child sex slave ring.

I've already answered that question several times here in this thread. I would suggest actually paying attention this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM

No, what I'm saying, and what I have been saying all along, is that we can't take the evidence we've been given so far (the videos) as the truth, because they have been edited, and they wouldn't stand up in a court of law. We need to see the whole, unedited footage before we can say that the ACORN employees shown on the tape have done what we have been told they did by the people who made the videos. I am saying that their evidence is faulty and does not prove anything at this time. That's what I'm saying.

And I would consider offering advice, and more importantly, not reporting people who say they're planning on starting a child sex slave ring to the authorities, as aiding and abetting. Like I said, I don't know if the law would agree with that, but it's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:27 AM

CC:

Now that were are getting to specifics instead of generalities, you have raised some legitimate concerns.

The acorn people did not actually aid and abet. They just talked about it. I guess you could say giving advice was aid.

As to tortured logic, you claim that the undercover people unquestionably did something wrong, you do not wait to see it is true but you say to wait to see if ACORN did something wrong. It isn't torture for me. Your run screaming comment is more shrill rhetoric.

Tia says anyone can do anything but the possibility does not make evidence. That is about the flimsiest proof I can imagine.

It is also possible that the ACORN people did what was shown in the videos.

And I still can't understand why the ACORN people were fired if they did nothing wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 11:28 PM

Wow, Sawzaw - you really do need a map don't you?
The point about Rush Limbaugh (see my link above - or did you even bother to?) is that you can make *anyone* say *anything* with clever editing!
Now go listen to the link, and think about that (and compare to the clearly edited ACORN tapes).
No double standard here - apply the same standard to both (if you are capable).

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM

In my opinion, anyone who aids and abets human trafficking and sex slavery (or slavery of any kind) belongs in jail. I have zero tolerance for that kind of thing. I have no idea if the courts would agree with me in this case, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 08:41 AM

The Louisiana District Attorney who has re-opened the embezzlement case might find grounds to prosecute for criminal behavior. What would be criminal about the stooges in the taping incident?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:18 AM

It's really a crime the way some people torture logic. I am not suggesting that the people who made the video should be punished in any way unlike the person who is causing logic to run screaming for its life just above with regard to ACORN. So guilt or innocence is beside the point when it comes to whether or not the videos would stand up to scrutiny in a court of law. The plain fact is that they could not stand up in a court of law, where the accused have a right to be considered innocent until their guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and what is said by the accusers must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's the American way. Anyone who doesn't like it maybe should go find a more dictatorial regime in which to do their propagandizing and smear mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 12:59 AM

So according to CC the undercover people are guilty until they can prove their innocence?

And of course Acorn is innocent until proven guilty.

"It is illegal under state law to tape someone without his or her permission." When they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Privacy does not exist in a busy public office with several people present.

Or in a bank with security cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:38 PM

And if anyone thinks that just seeing something on tape or film is proof that it is real, that person is the one who is superstitious. I guess those dinosaurs in the Jurassic Park films prove that there really are dinosaurs roaming the earth today.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM

I would suggest actually reading my posts before responding to them. I did not say the ACORN employees did nothing wrong. It's right there in several of my posts. I said that the accusation that they knew they were addressing a pimp and a prostitute and that these people told them they were going to operate a child sex slave ring is disputed by the people in the videos and by ACORN.

I support investigations into what actually happened like this one by the government of California. If they are found to be guilty of the above charges, I think the workers in question should go to jail. However unlike the above poster who still lives in the dark ages, I don't think they or the organization they worked for should be punished before they are found to be guilty, and I don't think the organization should be punished if they were not aware that things like this were happening in some of their local offices. They should take responsibility for a lack of appropriate training, and they should correct that (and they are doing that), but there is no reason whatever to shut down the whole operation for something like that if they correct the problem so it won't happen again (if, in fact, all of it turns out to be true).

The edits in the tape are quite apparent. All one has to do is watch the tape to see them. And we never actually see the "pimp" and "prostitute" actually say any of the things we hear them saying. There is no way for us to know whether or not that is what they actually said. These things are quite obvious and because of them, the tape we saw would never hold up in a court of law. They would have to show the whole tapes and even then, we still might not know if we never see them saying the things we heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM

No Idea of how to prove a negative?

If the Acorn employees did nothing wrong, why did Bertha fire them?
Wouldn't it be bad behavior to fire somebody that is courageously helping poor people and did nothing wrong?

How do you know what "the people who made the tapes" wants you to think?

Who is included in people "on their side of the argument"? Am I somehow responsible for what Rush Limbaugh says and am I somehow obligated to condemn or defend it?

Who is included in us? Are you speaking for some sort of group that I am supposed to show a tape to that I don't have?

Is this some sort of hypothetical battle between two opposing sides? A straw man argument?

I am only one person and I am not uncivilly, shrilly calling anybody an asshole because they disagree with me. I invite all points of view. I merely ask that you follow the requirements you place on others.

Remember the dark ages when people thought everything they saw was not real, just the work of demons? You know what you saw but you prefer to demonize some sort of straw man group of people rather that face reality.

If there is any evidence that those tapes were altered somehow, I would like to hear it instead of calling someone an asshole because they ask for proof like you do. The burden is on the accuser, not the accused.