Pubs in decline

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 10:20 AM

one of my bars sells cans of any stout for 5 euros, and Beamish is 5 euros for a pint in all bars

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 07:12 AM

You were very lucky Guest, in the town, and surrounds, of the town I live in Guinness is 5.60 (town) and 5.30 surrounds.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 05:22 AM

prices of drink may be one reason for the decline of pubs, as patriot pointed out recently, the re beingsult fewer places for small scale musical events, so still relevant to thread, I think?

Ireland has for years been notorious for the high price of pub drink, but on a recent trip I found Guinness in Sligo/Leitrim pubs at 4.70 euro- just about £4 - changed times!

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 12:31 PM

Landlord does tend to be more expensive than other real ales.

One pub I use served Landlord at £4.90 and Harvey's Sussex Best at £4.00. I drank the Harvey's. New landlord took over in April and decided to price all his real ales at £4.90. Only get 4 pints for my £20.00 now, rather than my usual 5.

I was surprised that the new owners did not up the price on the Landlord.

Guinness down here is £5 and more. Just before Christmas 2023, I was in Wandsworth/Battersea and ordered a pint of Guinness in a pub. I could not believe it when they charged me £4.20. I was shocked.
£6.00 a pint when I was in the Soho area in February.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: cujimmy
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 10:10 AM

I was at Whitby Moore and Coast folk festival last weekend, I paid £4.90 fo for a pint of Landlord and £5.60 for Guiness. I know people pay more elsewhere but a lot of people just cant afford that ie £30 - £40 a session. I know many people inc relatives that have put a Bar in their back garden in the town where I grew up in Scotland, there used to be about 12 Pubs in the village ion West Lothian, now there is is one pub and two clubs (one of which only opens at weekends).

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 08:51 AM

In the early 60s it cost the SAME amount to 1 get a bus for about six miles to a First Division football match 2 pay to get in & 3 have a pint afterwards- about 1/3-- 6p in modern currency.

I think you'get the first & last for under a fiver ( first one free for me with my card !) But number 2- £50? just saying

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: RTim
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 08:18 PM

When I started going to the pub in my home village (I was 17 years old)....Bitter was 1 Shilling and 3 old pence..it was Watney's Alton Bitter.... The landlord told us he was installing a Lager pump soon...and we said - How Much....he said - 4 Shillings a Pint!! - in today's money that is 20 pence!!!

At least that is how I remember it....(it was 60 years ago...)


Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 07:52 PM

That works out to 11 pints per £1 with 1p change.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 07:50 PM

My first pint cost me £01.10 about 9p in new money, mind you that was in 1970 and I was only 15!!

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: RTim
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 06:44 PM

When I first moved to Oxfordshire in 1973....a pint of bitter in The Bell, Adderbury was a whopping - 11 Newpence....

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 01:55 PM

Houses

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,reluctant drinker
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 10:06 AM

the first pint I bought back in 1978 cost me 28p, the last pint I bought which was yesterday, 30th June 2024 cost me £5!!!!! what percentage rise is that? what other product has endured a similar price hike?

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 04:35 PM

problem is that too many pubs are pretty close to my earlier description- the real English pub is an amazing environment- why are we throwing it all away?

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 04:15 AM

Patriot posted 'Why would I go to a noisy pop music riddled modern 'superpub' with a giant scren for ghastly modern football where I wouldn't get TWO pints for that money?'

Well not all pubs are like that. Cost is one reasons why fewer are going to pubs, along with a change in drinking habits. For what ever reason, I get the impression that fewer young people are going to pubs now compared to 40 or 50 years ago. I have no idea why.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: RTim
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 09:51 AM

Here are some facts - Over the period in consideration the number of breweries in the United Kingdom (UK) increased from 1,489 in 2018 to 2,426 in 2022.Oct 18, 2023

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: RTim
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 09:47 AM

The irony of Pubs closing is - There are More Breweries now in the UK than at any time in the past....

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 04:11 AM

In 1970 the UK had 75000 pubs. In March 2024 there were 39000.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 04:05 AM

Last Closing Time

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 09:21 PM

smoking has now been banned in pubs but they are still closing i am lucky i have six pubs to choose from ,
going to a pub is about proper socialising which involves talking to people face to face and not having to put up with abuse from internet trolls
for me going to a pub is about talking to others which unlike the internet does involve body language.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 22 Jun 24 - 02:32 PM

I just bought a pack of 10 ten 500ML cans of Greene King IPA from ASDA for £8.
Not the most inspired beer in the oorld but OK for what it is- 3.4pc alcohol.
Why would I go to a noisy pop music riddled modern 'superpub' with a giant scren for ghastly modern football where I wouldn't get TWO pints for that money?
I can have peace & quiet & MY choice of music/film/radio/reading - it's a no-brainer.
I can understand it if your local pub is the Pilot in Berwick or the Red Lion on Romney Marsh but few of us are so lucky

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:42 PM

This seems the most suitable thread for the following.

From The Morning Advertiser

Pub closures in England & Wales up 51% for first 3 months of 2024

Not great news.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Frankham
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:50 PM

I can't but see this as a positive thing in a way. When we visited Ireland, we really love the music and wanted to hear it but most of what was accessible to us at the time was in pubs. We apparently couldn't get to the Fleadhs but we did fortunately come upon a dance for the "old folks" with a great Irish band.

We would love to visit Ireland again. We met such wonderful people and they were very kind to us. We dropped in on the Comhaltas in Monkstown and enjoyed every bit of it. We took in the Siamsa in Tralee and loved it. Our main regret is that most of the music was in the pubs. We feel the same way Fran does. We felt that we couldn't go into them.

I used to play in smoky bars. It wrecked havoc on my lungs and I never smoked. I love jazz and in the fifties and early sixties, that's where you had to go to hear or play it.

I realize that the pub has the same nostalgic meaning for many as the American jazz club and understand the feelings that the people who frequent them must have about their disappearance but I think that it's time to adapt to a new healthy environment, now, and let the music be accessible to all and not limited to those who smoke. Alcohol consumption is a matter of personal choice as long as it's under control by the user. That doesn't affect my lungs.

I think there might be a non-smoking and/or maybe a non-alcoholic pub that could do good business in the British Isles and if they were playing good music I know that on holiday, we would be there supporting it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: HuwG
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

Woe, woe, and thrice woe !


Yes, indeed, it's more than a shame that such a lively pub is no more. Tinsley boasts, or boasted, only two other pubs; and neither was anything to boast about, if you get my meaning. (The "Fox and Duck" was a large and rather delapidated building, the "Pike and Heron" was plastic and fizzy-pop).

It may or may not be a sign of the times, but the last time I drove past Tinsley, the newest and best-kept building was the Mosque.




I have happy memories of Tinsley, mainly associated with a girlfriend there. On days when the Pete Jones Outfit played at the "Florence Nightingale" in Rotherham, we used to take the bus to Rotherham Centre and walk the rest of the way, up more than a mile of very long and steep hill. How's that for dedication ? Of course, we were young, fit and very poor then.


I also recall jam sessions and other events in the "Travellers' Rest", not far from Rotherham town centre. I doubt if that place is still there; they seemed to be tearing down the entire area before I left.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM

I checked.....hold you seat.........what was the Plumpers is indeed a golf accessory shop!

Pubs in decline?................cities in decline more like.

Dave

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:28 PM

No problem. I can easily check since my daughter goes past every day. Although I live in Sheffield it is only rarely that I go around there - preferring to keep away from Meadowhell and all its works.

I'll ask though....(as a memory of the Plumpers it used to be the training pub for Stones (RIP) and they had a glass bottomed beer barrel with a light shining through to show how easy it was to stir up the shit in the bottom of a barrel).

I saw landlordism in a new light........so to speak.

Dave

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: HuwG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 12:50 PM

Folkiedave, I did indeed mean the "Carbrooke Hall". It's a shame what time and abuse does to one's memory.

I lived in Tinsley (before MeadowHole was built), and remember the "Plumpers" well; it used to have some nice music twenty years ago. Mostly fifties and sixties covers bands, but one nice bunch of C-and-W'ers, the "Pete Jones Outfit". I recall driving past it not long ago, and the pub appeared to have been replaced by a golfing accessories shop; say it ain't so.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 12:10 PM

[snip] the "Carbury Hall" out the front, which had oak panelling, [/snip]

I wonder if you mean the "Carbrooke Hall". An interesting boozer even now because the inside is in fact 17th century and the oak panelling referred to is in fact genuine and dates from that time as does one of the fireplaces within the place.

If it were in the Cotswolds it would be a real treasure and people would travel miles to see it. Since it is in (what was) the steelworks end of Sheffield few people bother. If you are travelling up the M1 and this sort of thing interests you then it is not far off the Meadowhell turn off. (Spelling deliberate)

Which reminds me that when I was a rep for a food company many years ago the landlord of the Plumpers - right next to the M1 - told me he wasn't bothered about doing food - he had no passing trade.

In fact.........I wonder how much the decline in pubs is due to the idiots in charge of some of them. I remember ringing up one pub to ask if it was OK to bring a couple of Morris teams up to dance in the car park........

"I don't know" said the landlady, "they'll be wanting drinks and things and I'll have to put on extra staff - then there'll be all them extra glasses to wash............." I did say as I put the phone down I was trying very hard to put some money in her till........put we would do it elsewhere....

Dave

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: HuwG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 08:53 AM

One or two of the pubs in Attercliffe and Brightside in Sheffield, which practically backed onto steelworks, had prominent notices which said, "No working clothes". The idea was to keep out some of the furnace charge-wheelers and so on, whose overalls would shower a cascade of rust, filings, turnings, clinker, soot and so forth, wherever they walked or sat.

Needless to say, the accountants were told that they could not come in unless they removed their ties and pinstripes.

This situation was unlikely to arise; if I remember, there was a crowded pub, the "Duke of Wellington" at the back of Forgemasters, which did a roaring trade with thirsty foundry floor workers. The carpets were about 50% cigarette burn marks, and sometimes you did need a hard hat to be safe while ordering a drink. Then there was a more genteel establishment, the "Carbury Hall" out the front, which had oak panelling, waitress service and all the trimmings, for the gaffers. I was once treated to dinner there after I bodged some of Forgemasters' scrap inventory software; I felt very out of place.


The "No Trainers" rule more often applies to nightclubs than pubs.


Pubs can say, "No dogs"; this is not a reference to less-than-attractive ladies. (Badly controlled dogs can be a nuisance). However, the words "No pets" on advertisements for property to rent or let, are usually a thinly disguised code for, "No coloureds"


As IanC says, a landlord can bar anybody, without needing to give any reason. Paul Merton once became involved in an argument with an elderly bigot of a landlord who objected to his style of humour on the TV. The landlord told him, "You're barred, for life". Paul Merton replied, "Whose lifetime ? Yours or mine ?"

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 08:26 AM

"No travellers" were quite common at one time, but I haven't seen them recently round our way. There were arguments as to whether it got round discrimination by saying "travellers" instead of gypsies, which is what it meant - because there are non-gypsy new agre travellers as well.

A notice up saying not under 25s might not be legal, or it might be. There's a lot to be said for raising the age of drinking to 25 anyway. And maybe 30 for driving...

Lower age limits are on odd kind of discrimination, because it is time limited - you move from one category to the other in the course of your life, which doesn't happen with racism and sexism etc.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: IanC
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:13 AM

Wolfgang

Religious discrimination is also illegal under the discrimination laws (perhaps we should get back to pubs).

:-)

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 06:59 AM

[Let's make it 'No Roman Catholics' then (grin).]

Sorry, I didn't intend to start a new line of discussion with off topic posts, for the discussion you had was and is still very interesting to me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: JudeL
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 06:01 AM

Landlords can display limitations on those entering the pub provided they do not break other laws such as those which prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race or sex. Thus a landlord may have a dress code that excludes anyone wearing jeans and trainers but is not allowed to post a sign saying e.g. no Irish.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: IanC
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:52 AM

Well, Wolfgang, it would be OK to exclude people on racist grounds (so long as you don't say so) but there are specific laws against racial discrimination so that overt displays like signs would be illegal. Sexism is frowned upon enough that there are no longer Mens Bars anywhere really (30 yeas ago they wer quite common in the North of England). Publicans would be frightened of losing their licenses.

Ageism isn't actually illegal, though, and not really very frowned upon either. After all, under 18s aren't allowed to buy drink and under 14s aren't allowed in.

:-)

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:33 AM

Thanks, Ian. I understand that even an outright racist sign or a 'men only' sign would be allowed then. I'm sure some laws in my country will seem puzzling to people in other countries as well.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: IanC
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:06 AM

Wolfgang

It's an interesting part of the law in England and Wales that a pub landlord can exclude anyone from a pub without even needing to give any reason at all. Though it's called a "Public House" it's actually a private house where the landlord allows people in at his discretion. Our private schools are also called "Public Schools" by the way ... it's the English way of confusing "foreigners" I think!

;-)

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 04:58 AM

I love to read this thread. I guees it's similar over here but that's just an impression without backup by data.

One bit, however, has surprised me. Is what the Crown in Old Harlow does, namely excluding customers below a certain age, legal in Britain? It would be completely illegal over here and the landlord would risk his license displaying such a sign.

We had a time when there were signs reading 'No...allowed' all over our country, even long after the war, when signs were disallowing coloured GIs to enter German pubs. Meanwhile, the general consensus (and a demand by a law) is that no landlord (same for hotels, shops,...) has any right to exclude any group of customers except according to what the law prescribes (no minors).

So any sign excluding any group which is legally allowed to enter a pub would be illegal. I have never heard or read of discrimination on basis of age in Germany, like e.g. no person above 65 allowed, but the cases we read of over here in the last couple of years are signs (or admission policies without explicit signs) of the type 'No turks allowed' or 'wheelchairs unwelcome'.

Of course, that doesn't prevent any landlord from dissuading some unwelcome groups by choosing opening times, loudness of music, late serving, pricing of drinks, interior style accoring to the tastes of subgroups catered for. So, you easily get a feeling whether you are too old or too young or whatever for a pub. But explicit discrimination is not allowed.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:18 PM

I suspect that anyone playing a fiddle or singing folk songs would be assumed to be over 25, Peter. There are two other pubs in the street and if you poked your head in there you'd see why the Crown has that policy. Anyone much over 25 would be liable to feel out of place in the others.

I suspect you're way out in your estimate of drinking habits, Ed. If I'm driving there's no way I'm going to drink four or five pints. But if it's a thirsty night after I've drunk my beer I'll still be feeling like drinking a few more pints of something, if I'm sticking around for the music or whatever - and I'd sooner a lemonade than alcohol free beer, which is revolting. Or preferably dandelion and burdock, which has a bit of a flavour.

It maybe that publicans do think that way though - but if so I think they misunderstand their public. And I'm sure that there are people who faced with the choice between lemonade and beer at the same price per pint, jib at being ripped off like that, and buy another beer instead, and risk their driving licence or worse. And even from a money point of view, that's a lost customer.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:10 PM

I had to drink eight pints of the Tinners to keep my voice in condition. Wouldn't have done it otherwise, of course!

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Nemesis
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM

DG&D Dave, altho' the beer in the Middle Bar, Anchor this weekend was by and large disgusting (as was the Guiness :( (The Tinners just about passed muster apparently).

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:52 PM

My local is a Punch Tavern.

They also own different businesses one of which is a nearby competitor a "Mr. Q" student-orientated or yoof market boozer. The Mr Q outlet is currently selling Draught Guinness (Ugh!) at £1.50 per pint. (Eat your heart out southerners!) He cannot buy it for that price.

Punch Taverns own about 5,000 pubs.

He is an excellent landlord.............(has camapaigned against the current bill and in favour of live music) sells great real ale......quality food...........and is thinking of leaving the trade.

There is only one thing worse than bad taste........brewery and pub accountants' bad taste.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk
www.holmfirthfestival.com

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:51 PM

Really, Peter?

You've drunk 10 pints of coke of an evening???

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:33 PM

ED - on the contrary, I will drink more if I am on soft drinks.

McGrath - Well the Crown is one pub I'll avoid then. Both my daughters sing, one also plays fiddle and both are under 25. If he doesn't want their custom then my money gets spent somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:12 PM

I'd like to make a defence for the publican regarding soft drink prices.

If you're a beer drinker and spend your whole evening in a pub, you may well drink 4,5,6 or more pints of beer.

If you are drinking soft drinks over the same period, you are very unlikely to drink more than a couple of pints of lemonade/lime and soda, or whatever. You are however making equal use of the premises, taking up a seat, using the toilets etc.

The publican isn't a charity. S/he has a business to run. Having a clientele who wish to sit all night with 2 glasses of reasonably priced orangeade will be a sure way to bankruptcy for the publican.

Ed

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 01:02 PM

DG&D Dave:
presumably the tune to follow (still awaited) is "You'll always find me in the kitchen at parties" by Jona Lewie (1980)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:19 PM

I've only come across one pub with a definite anti-yoof policy - the Crown in Old Harlow, where there's a sign in the window saying "No admission to anyone under 25 unless they are with their parents." That's the way! One of the few pubs I know where they had a major refurbishment which actually improved the place. And they like the odd bit of live music too.

Pub can survive the kind of thing Daev mentioned - the old George and Dragon in Epping got taken over by a new chain who gutted it and called the the Firkin and Forest or something like that, and yoofed it up. But now it's gone back to being the George and Dragon, and abandoned the quest to pull in people who aren't old enough to legally drink, and it's not a bad place now.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:00 PM

I always used to use the bedford with Len Davies. Haven't been to Sidmouth for four years now. Might be going and helping my old friend Leadfingers out this year! Well Might meet up with you in the Anchor DG&D Dave, always nice to put faces to names!

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM

That's why you'll always find us in the Anchor at Sidmouth,
That's why you'll always find us in the Anchor at Sidmouth.

Tune to follow!

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,steve benbows protege
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:10 AM

well said Dave I agree totally with you. Also the young trade includes the twenty something yupies where the pubs turn into would be wine bars. Did that with the "Turks Head" in st. Margarets. That was a famous music pub now sadly dead to the world of yuppism. Many of the local clans drank in there and now we all drink as far away as possible.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:29 AM

I enjoy singing in pubs - I find the atmosphere the most conducive for folk song and music. I also enjoy a pint (or quart if I've got my tankard with me) of good real ale with it. I don't drink for dutch courage - no-one who knows me would accuse me of needing it. I do find that beer seems to lubricate my throat better than water or other liquids.

I agree with the comments about excessive smoke and try to avoid pubs where this is the norm. Essex Girl and I have noticed the way that the right publican can make such a difference to a pub. We've seen things go both ways, a good pub go right downhill on a change of of management, but also (sadly rarer) the success stories where a new imaginative incumbent has revived a pub which was almost on the point of closing. One Pub which we often sing at, was an Indian Restaurant for quite some years, but is now a lovely pub again, with wonderful (Harvey's) draught beer - all on gravity feed.

One of the problems is that many new landlords decide that the quick way to make money is to try and attract the "young" trade. This usually entails stripping out most of the fittings which make it comfortable and repainting it in a minimalist fashion. This works all right for a while, but often there are problems with under-age drinking and drugs as well as complaints from neighbours. Young drinkers tend to be fickle and soon another establishment becomes more fashionable, leaving a pub which because of it's state and reputation, no-one wants to drink in. I can think of at least half a dozen such pubs which are now McDonalds, Wine Warehouses, Restaurants, Offices or just empty eyesores.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: JudeL
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

Some of us Kevin are rapidly getting more willing to make a fuss given the number of times we've had to leave places because of the lvel of smoke.