BS: Children's behaviour

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:08 AM

We also have a 'traditional' Sunday roast and both my kids have stated their intention of coming home on Sundays for Sunday lunch wherever in the world they get to!

We also sit down together for breakfast on Sunday mornings, though the rest of the week is too hectic to manage that.

A lot of other cultures make a ritual out of shared meals and I think it is one of the many 'ritual' things we severely lack...certainly in England., probably in America too

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:54 AM

Our Family has supper together each evening and all are present for Sunday dinner. Although our kids ,three of them, have busy lives they also know that six o clock is supper time and they are always there. There are always one or two extras at table, they love to invite friends and the friends are amazed that we eat together as a family EVERY nihjt. Many of my childrens friends seldom have family meals. More often they take it out of the cooker and eat alone in front of the telly.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:00 AM

I agree dianavan. I've always made it a rule that we sit down at the table together for our evening meal. There is an alarming number of my kids' friends who don't even have a dining table. They NEVER sit at table for a meal but always in the lounge, usually with the television on. I admit we've lapsed occasionally this winter because we've not been using the central heating much and there is an open fire in the sitting room, but once it's warmer we're back to the dining room.

SRS, yes, that's why I no longer restrict my son's games and tv time. He is into so many things that I have no fear, any more, of him spending all his time on them...but perhaps that's because I MADE him do other things at a time when he otherwise would have done so?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:42 PM

My son has an older sister (18) and until this year they shared the video game players and the games. There are several types of players here, but only one of each and they managed very well. Since she is in college now she doesn't have much time for games, but when she does she plays a subscription online computer role playing game (she usually only pays for the blocks of time when she can actually play it, like the month over the christmas holiday). And we gave her brother a duplicate of the PlayStation 2 that they used to share, since she has taken the first one to college where she keeps it at her boyfriend's apartment so they can share.

This evening my son has worked out a strategy to get everything done he needs to do. He did some homework, ate dinner with me, and asked if he goes to sleep early would I wake him at midnight so he can read for school. I told him no, that his uninterrupted sleep would do him more good and I'd get him up early instead. He's reading The Odyssey in his pre-AP English class and he has his classical guitar lesson tomorrow, so he's practicing guitar from now until bedtime then getting up early for more homework. He's passionate about his guitar (which lessons cost me a small fortune and which we pay in advance every month). So I'm not too worried about the time left over that goes to games.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM

MBSLynne: I have a daughter (nearly three) who would crack up if I told her, the nurse was looking for a stick. If the parent was seriously trying to scare the child then that was inappropriate.
With regards to the circumstances though, you just never know what they're going through and the kids do know when you are uncomfortable.
My daughter got her own "Computer" for Christmas.. "V. Smile TV learning System" it comes highly recommended. There are other kids' computers. Some of them don't even plug in. I wouldn't be too alarmed about that.
On a side note: While I was writing, my daughter just drew all over the walls with an ink marker. Sigh!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:54 PM

The most important thing a parent can do is have a regularly scheduled dinner time where everyone in the family is present.

Not only do they have the opportunity to develop their oral language skills (a pre-requisite for reading and writing) but it gives parents the opportunity to impart their values.

Its a small thing really, but research supports this.

You can point your finger at video games, t.v., working moms, divorce, etc. but really its family dinners that make the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:39 PM

Yes Guuest, you're right and it scares me too. A lot of children of the future will not know how to be in a family situation.

Yes, JennyO I am proud of my son, though his 'individuality' has cause him a lot of problems along the way. When he was at primary school and he absolutley refused to conform to his peer group and in consequence was picked on and ostracised. In his first three years at secondary school it was even worse because, of course, the years from 11-13/14 are the worst for the 'peer group pressure' thing. It worried me a lot, and I spent a lot of time 'phining the school or going in to see them because of the way he was sometimes treated by the other kids. Fortunately I knew he wasn't going to get into smoking, drugs etc because of peer group pressure!

Now that he is 16 and in his second year at the upper school he finally has a really nice group of friends and is well-known at school The other kids have become mature enough (generally) to appreciate his 'eccentricity' and he is quite a popular boy. It's taken a lot of heartache to get here though!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM

I worked in schools for 35 years and what a HUGE change there has beeen in the behaviour of children. Parents, many of them at least, have become hostages to the whims of thier children, they are afraid to say no to them...

This is my 29th year as a private music teacher, and I do know, very well, where you're coming from GUEST. I'm just so glad I finally took Mooh's advice and changed my studio polices last year regarding payments, missed lessons and termination of lesson agreement. (THank you SO MUCH again, Mooh, if you're reading this!   :-)

The financial hits I used to take on a regular basis, as parents catered to the fleeting whims and fancies of their little darlings -- and neglected to pay me for the resulting no-shows and last-minute cancellations -- became just plain staggering. And the stress of dealing with at least half a dozen requests for rescheduling per week - for the most ridiculous of excuses too (ie 11-yr old doesn't show up at lesson time. I'm sitting there waiting and wondering, the phone rings and I get "Sorry, she just doesn't feel like getting out of the hot tub right now. So I guess she won't make it to piano tonight. What else can I do with her?!?") - well, it was starting to take a physical toll too, believe me!

I simply cannot accomodate the ever-changing schedules and whims and wishes of 25 or 30 families - there is only one of me, and only so many hours per week available for teaching. So if you want lessons with me, then you will make a commitment for the term, pay me IN ADVANCE and live up to your scheduling agreements - whether Junior happens to "feel like it" or not. Or go elsewhere.

That's my new policy, and I love it!   :-)

(a much happier and richer) daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

I worked in schools for 35 years and what a HUGE change there has beeen in the behaviour of children. Parents, many of them at least, have become hostages to the whims of thier children, they are afraid to say no to them, they don;t see much of them, ,,,six hours at school ,five hours at day care. Parents and children have become strangers to each other and it shows because many parents are overcompensating for being absent parents by giving into the kids every whim. It scare me.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:03 AM

That's good to hear, Lynne. 16, eh?   Wow, at 16 what turned my twins on most were online role-playing (re life-sucking grumble grumble) games and Nirvana.    And for my eldest it was Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics. He liked em better than girls, even! EEEEEKS ... oh, what a wicked whalloping of worries and woes were on my plate back then....

And I can see I haven't changed much. I'm STILL a worrier, and I do need to lighten up. Thanks so much for your thoughts Ebbie, kendall, Lynne - that helped. And you're right, there's nothing wrong with tactfully suggesting (or, uh, requesting) that the games stay home from now on. They are tiring and distracting, and detract from the educational atmosphere I strive to create and maintain as much as possible here, in my home-based music studio.

I do keep an attractive selection of comics, books, and puzzles here for the kids who are waiting - but for most kids these days, such things just can't compete with the lure of a "D-S". And I do have an excellent interactive music theory site on my desk-top, beside the piano -- when those two are a bit more advanced with reading, they'll be able to use it while they are waiting. If they insist on burning out their eyeballs, they may as well do it musically while they're here!

But I have this feeling that after the incident last week, Mom will have worked it out for herself without my "help" before I see them again. She is a fine, thoughtful Mom! So I am going to save myself the time and trouble of a stressful phone call, STOP WORRYING and wait and see. If the problem does not solve itself, I'll deal with it easily, at the appropriate time -- EASILY I say!

ANd Stilly, wow you make it sound so easy. Admirable! And I guess it must BE easier, as you have only one boy at a time to manage .... no-one to fight or compete with over the games .. can you imagine the difference if your son had a twin? ANd a big brother to boot? And the playstation was shared, and hooked up to the one and only family tv in the one and only living room ...

Anyways, I do appreciate your thoughts and suggestions folks. Thanks again!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:41 AM

Sounds like you have an extraordinary son, Lynne - one who's not afraid to be an individual. I'm sure you're very proud of him!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:21 AM

JennyO:
:-)
If you knew my son you'd know that Morris dancing is the least of my worries! He's older than me, sings in pubs and folk places and would rather be at a folk festival than messing about with his school mates. Very weird for a 16 year old! He's actually started a Morris side at school as well as being in an established side. He has even been asked to teach a PE class Morris...he really enjoyed it and so did they!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:06 PM

There are some developmental benefits to the eye-hand coordination in gaming, and some intellectual skills, so it isn't all negative. But too much of anything isn't good for them, and I set limits on the games when my kids were little. My son spends so much time doing homework now that he has little time for the games, and after chores and practicing his time is his own before bedtime.

I make a point of coming through the room every now and then and watching or inquiring about the game. He has friend over regularly to share in games so they get some good social interactions, and actually, they can be lured away from the video games by waving the RISK box in their general direction. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

What would be wrong about informing the children and their parents that the games are counter-productive in the class room and that from now the child who is waiting for his lesson should bring a book if he wants to be entertained meantime? Seems to me that the moods of gaming and playing are not compatible.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:44 AM

Morris dancing, Lynne? And you're not worried? Oh dear, there's no hope for him now ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:24 AM

All these screen things are so addictive that it takes a strong parent to fight them! We had to restrict our son to so much 'screen time' per day. Now he is unrestricted because he has got into things like rugby, cricket and Morris dancing and spends a lot of time on homework so it's less of a problem. Our daughter was never quite so attached to these things as him. Didn't even watch tv much, though lately she's started doign that more than I'd like so we may have to bring in restrictions there. It is quite difficult to enforce these things though, when it's so easy just to leave them alone and get on with it.

If I were you I'd find a tactful way of saying the games should be left at home. They need to be taught that, if nothing else, they are anti-social and should only be played with in their own homes

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:53 AM

You must decide which is more important to you, and it sounds like it won't be an easy choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:30 AM

Two little boys, age 4 and 5, signed on for piano lessons with me a few weeks ago. I am really enjoying them for the most part -- so smart, quick, enthusiastic, and adorable too. Like two little peas in a pod! They come from a privileged upper middle-class home, go to a private school, absolutely love their music, and Mom loves learning along with them (YIPPEEEE!!! says teacher) In fact everything about their lives appears idyllic, but there's one thing I don't understand. With all the caring and smarts and advantages this parent appears to have, why oh WHY does she allow those two to spend hours on end playing hand-held computer games??

They come in for their lessons clutching their precious "D-S's" (never heard of that before, but they are like tiny little Nintendo units). One flies over to the sofa and settles in for half an hour of digital oblivion, while I teach his brother. Then they switch around - and the first several minutes of the second lesson is usually wasted while #2 urchin comes back down to reality, telling me about every last oh-so-exciting (?) moment of the game he was just playing. (That's when he makes through the lesson at all -- sometimes they are so red-eyed, whiney and restless after being square-eyed and totally "out of it" for half an hour we cut the lesson short, and Mom helps him catch up at home).      

Now, I can see what a great babysitter those things make. The kids don't make a squeak -- hardly move at all with one of those things in hand, leaving Mom free to work away on her lap-top oblivious to everything going on around her as well. What a great way to handle little kids and hospital rooms, airplanes, music studio waiting areas etc, huh?   

NOT! For one thing, all those hours gazing at a screen, no matter how small, is bad for the eyes, the brain, the body and the emotional state. I know this for a fact -- I remember playing a pinball-type video game for hours and hours on end many years ago, determined to beat it. Well I did beat it finally -- but was I happy? No. I was just miserable, cranky, achy, and swore I would NEVER play that or any other stupid video game again. And I haven't. But I'm glad I had that experience -- at least I understood, first-hand, what was going on with my own kids!

My kids wanted to spend ALL of their spare time glued to those games, and they would have if I'd let them! They became quite the gaming experts, winning all the time --- but were they happy?

No. The more time they spent playing, the more their moods would deteriorate and by the time they finally put it down, they'd be just miserable, fighting, cranky, irritable, impossible to be around. It was so predictable!! And they were no pre-schoolers at the time. They were almost 10 when I finally broke down and allowed their step-dad to hook one of those things up to the TV - a mistake I would never make again!

But back to my two little Mozarts-to-be -- they had to reschedule their first four lessons because they were both sick for almost a month they first signed up. Had colds, couldn't seem to get over it. Hmmmm -- I wonder why! Could it be that hours and hours of video-gazing, on a regular basis, is bad for the immune system too?

But I think the last straw finally fell last week. Urchin #2, almost 6 yrs old, had an "accident" on my couch while waiting for his lesson - he was so absorbed in his "D-S", and Mom in her lap-top, that neither one realized what was happening until a certain odour filled the air. Very embarrassing for them, and quite a pain in the you-know for me, having to clean the furniture ... AARRGGHHHH!

I have been considering asking them to please leave the games at home from now on -- better for them, better for me, better for the furniture. But I know it will be like asking them to remove their eye teeth, and I want them to LIKE coming here, and .... and ... oh, what to do what to do!

Anyway, this thread seemed like a great place to safely let off a bit of steam re children and video games. So thanks, Mudcat, and thanks to you all just for reading all this (if you did!)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:56 AM

My children have never been allowed boiled sweets. Even quite big children have choked on them. In addition, they are probably the worst sweets as far as teeth go since they are just about pure sugar and because they take a long time to suck, come into contact with the teeth for a prolonged period.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM

So choke instead of scream? Not a great choice

At some stage stilly the parents have to be responsible for their kids choices...a four year old past the stage of nursing hopefully ( but their lies a whole new thread) can have a boiled sweet or not...their parent knows if they have mastered sucking or not...presumably four year olds who don't know how to suck a sweet have something else supllied by their parents.

The worst kind of child on the plane is the one with parents who are not used to flying...their parents are ill prepared.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Gizmo
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:11 PM

I have to agree Ruth, very rarely does social services or schools get involved with unruly middle class children, but the children reared by single parents (especially those on low incomes)are singled out, drawn into a corner with the patronizing

"Are you coping ok?....." and further reviews.

I have met more children unruly for being spoilt and little discipline given, than the children of parents who may shout at their children to get them inline, then the said parents scolded for doing so.

I know many parents with the same attitude as your friend above.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:12 PM

I hasten to add that this is a VERY middle class family of farmers.

I thought I'd add that as sometimes these things are so readily assumed to be drawn on class lines. In my experience, middle class parents are the worst offenders, because they are SO indulgent of their little treasures...

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:36 PM

Ruth
We did and do similar things as you. Our kids take books with them now to read, if we go anywhere.

In your info, it does sound like your friend is so out of order. I think you have to do a lot to be barred from a pub. If ours ever misbehaved they got a rollocking and inveriably we would leave the premises immediately.

She probably needs parenting classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:06 PM

My friend makes me want to scream in her approach to child rearing. She never even taught her (3) kids their alphabet: that's what school is for, apparently.

They were actually barred from our village pub because they were never under control. Whenever we took our daughter to the pub, we brought books, paper, colouring stuff - and when she was older games, cards, etc. And we all interacted as a family. Nicola and her husband would sit and chat to friends while the kids ran wild. Of course, when the kids got barred she was very cross. "But they're just children. That's how children behave..."

When they went abroad for the first time, the kids were so unruly on the plane that there were complaints from other passengers. One man apparently said, "Your children have ruined my holiday, and it hasn't even started." She found this very funny. I would have been mortified. Again, her mantra: "Well, they're just children - what do people expect...?"

Parameters and discipline. That's what kids need. And sometimes it's the parents who need a spanking.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM

So choke instead of scream? Not a great choice. Eating some thing chewy will work. When my children were small, before they were eating solid food, they were nursing. When we flew anywhere I made a point of nursing when the plane took off and landed. The sucking motion keeps their ears in good shape.

I was on a flight from hell with a family in front of me, their 2-year-old in agony. He already had tubes in his ears for infections, and that wasn't enough, he screamed for probably 30-45 minutes after the plane took off. His ears eventually evened out, and the screaming had tired him out so much he slept, but then we had to land. . .

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:01 AM

A boiled sweet - the individually wrapped hard sweets that they hand out on planes, especially before descent, the sucking is meant to alleviate pressure in the ears. But believe me I fly once , sometimes twice monthly and children can have the most terrible time. Ninety nine per cent of the time they are fine, but it only takes one child on a plane with ear pressure problems to make a racket that at the time sees interminable, the crew are used to this and given the time they will walk/carry the child about intermittently, if only to give the poor parent a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:27 AM

what is a boiled sweet?

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:50 PM

I am horrified at people who put infants in shopping carts. A small can accidentally pushed from a shelf can kill them. Better to have them strapped to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

Small children flying can have terrible ear problems. A boiled sweet is not enough. Nothing but descent will help.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM

Ebbie, I know what I would have done. I would have told that clueless mother to take her brat in hand or I would call the police. Animal cruelty is still illegal.

That incident on the plane...I can't imagine anything more like HELL than sitting near people like that! The last time I flew to the UK, there was a clueless mother a few seats ahead with a small child that howled most of the way over there.

None of my kids ever acted like savages at any age. And, I never had to smack them either.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:50 AM

And sometimes you are struggling unaided and unadvised and it feels like the end of the world.

Thanks for your vote of confidence for my kids Andy! If they grow up like Toby I'll be well-satisfied

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:01 AM

From a film (possibly 'Parenthood' with Steve Martin) and probably mis-remembered:

You need lessons to drive a car, but it seems any ol' person can be a parent.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:50 AM

Hey! I agree with everyone...simply because we don't know the parents mentioned at the start of the thread and the rest of life is full of so many variables who are we to judge. Luckily (no I don't think luck came into it) both MBS Lynne and myself have pretty damn good children. No coincidence that they were all brought up in the folk world and used to knowing when to be neither seen nor heard under a pub table. They also knew that their time would come when they would be the centre of attention again.
Smacks? Hmm..I always thought they should be used, but in moderation and hopefully not in anger, but my little blighter never needed any!! (Thanks T.)

Final thought, as has come out on this thread...Parenting is probably the most continuing challenge we take on in life. But we go into it so unprepared.
A.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:09 AM

Yes I think we've all been close at some time or another. I bet the man was prepared to throw himself off a cliff afterwards. I can remember thinking as I threw a screaming child into it's cot after hours of difficulties with it, how easy it must be to slip over the line into actually hitting it, not with the purpose of training or teaching, but just out of being at the end of one's tether. Of course some people, due to many factors, have less control over slipping over that line, than others. It's part of why Kendal is right on the "Spank or no spank" thread when he says "Never hit in anger". It's just that sometimes it#s not so easy not to.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:45 PM

MBSLynne: Just looked back at my post, and I see how you would take it that way - I did start it off referring specifically to your post, and then became more general - in my own mind at least -

Parenting can be an extremely difficult job ... There was a young man near here just recently convicted of assault for having broken the leg of his two-year-old daughter - it was the middle of the night and she had been bawling for hours; he is a working guy, was tired, alone with her and at his wit's end, and just lost it - no history of violence, no police record, etc. - prosecutor was calling for a prison sentence of several years, haven't heard a report on sentencing yet ... But I think many parents hearing the story must have thought, there but for the grace of God ...

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:43 PM

Part of your job as a parent is teaching kids how to behave in public/around other people. If you don't, you're not doing your job and are shortchanging the kid. It's not doing him/her any favours by allowing him/her to grow up to be someone people hate having around.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:10 PM

Sorry Guest, meself, I thought you were referring to me starting the thread in the first place.

I still don't think this child was autistic or anything like it. I do realize that there are various types and it's not necessarily possible to spot it from an outsiders point of view, but this child wasn't really even being particularly naughty. He just needed a bit more control than he was getting.

I really feel for you guys. I have seen children with varying degrees of ADHS in the school where I am a Governor and it must be devastating to be in that situation.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:31 PM

Gizmo
I am with you 100% The bells were ringing as I read your post.

Unfortunately if you have never experienced it, you never know how bad it is.

I remember having to phone a help line in the middle of the night, just for support, becuase I couldn't hack it anymore with my daughter. I had severe lack of sleep and was trying to hold a day job down. It was horrendous.

Incidentally it is very interesting about the ADHD/Aspergers situation. That is something they test for if you are diagnosed with ADHD. My daughter had mild traits of Aspergers, but not bad enough to diagnose her with Aspbergers. I occasioanally see things happen with her and think, Blimey that is as bad if not worse than my Autistic daughter. Incidentally, she knows that she has ADHD, but she doesn't know that the Aspergers part is there. She would be mortified if she knew.

What a lot of people don't know, is the effect it has on married life. We vowed we would get through it together, but what a price.

Keep at it Gizmo :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,parent
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:29 PM

Gizmo that is one hell of a post, it left me drained reading it, i admire how you do cope and can not even begin to imagine how I would fare in your shoes.

A drama shown on UK TV recently, based on a true story of an autistic boy , was an excellent way to get across the message to the rest of us that kids acting 'naughty' are not always doing so deliberately.

With very young children of my own I do not join in with the tutting when a child plays up in a supermarket queue, but I have seen many that do.

I wish you and your family all the very best and hope a diagnosis that can help is reached for your son.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Gizmo
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM

I agree with The Villain about autism - sorry Lynne - but there are different types.

My son was like that at the age of 2 - 3. Nothing could stop him running up and down corridors, waiting for him to have his next check-up at the hospital. No amount of distraction, playing games etc would work - he bacame fixed and then acted like a twister in human form. Admittedly at that age, if he was really bad I would pick him up and hold him tight - something he really hated, but he learnt slowly that I would let him go when he had calmed down.

Unfortunately as he got bigger and bigger - now 10, still undiagnosed (another long story) - He STILL gets his moments. As far as the therapists are aware, until he gets further diagnosis, he seems to be a cross between ADHD and aspergers, but displays the symptoms at the innappropriate times i.e. an ADHD response, when most aspergers would respond differently, then act like aspergers when most ADHD kids would display something else.

I often am at my wits end, and my son has no sweets, never any fizzy drinks, no fruit squash, and only occasionaly allowed pure fruit juice. Tiredness gets him hyper, as well as any change. His modes are similar to a drunk person, he always slurrs his words and pronounces them thickly (usually he has good diction) then he will giggle and be slightly merry, cries alot and is extremely emotional, and the other one is the worst - the loud mouthed agressive one. He can get violent with the latter mode.

Sometimes parents are at their wits end, and although never show it to the outside world - are at breaking point inside. Many times have I been alone in that situation, a child running around and no amount of anything will stop him. You feel as a parent that you should say something - anything to the kid, because pre-diagnosis - you don't know what causes this behaviour, and the guilt that you're a bad parent weighs incredibly heavily.

The magic you should do x y z book never seems to work for everyone. Sometimes the parents need help - but can't get it until it is very, very bad.

Everyone loses in these situations, and the guilt I have racked up about how I may have failed my children,certainly give me sleepless nights. I will not know how they fair until they are adults. Thats a few years away yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:57 AM

I have a fear of children falling from shopping carts. Too many parents pile children into the cart, or when they're in the child seat don't restrain them. Children DIE falling from carts on to the linoeleum-covered concrete floors. A friend wasn't fast enough with her 9-month-old who managed to fall from the child seat. She was lucky she only broke her leg.

In stores I have lunged to stop children from standing in that child seat and caught parents' eyes, reminding them the kids need to sit. I've told children to sit down, and I can even say it in Spanish, though I only know a few phrases, learned from my Puerto Rican ex. I sometimes just remind them that the floors are concrete and I invoke my friend's bad example--"it could be worse than a broken leg." There was one day at the checkstand when I stopped a toddler from pitching out and the mother scolded me for taking her to task in caring for her child. I think I asked if she expects her child to survive childhood with her. She was so worried about how SHE looked that she would disregard the safety of her child.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

to get back to the wild little boy in the hospital, who was the subject of the beginning of this thread -

I once knew the dad of an obstreperous two-year old. When she was getting out of line he didn't say something vague like "Calm down" or "Knock it off!"

He'd say, "That's too loud, Holly." That way she knew what he wanted and who he was talking to.

Since then I have also learned that it is much easier on everyone if you tell what you want rather than tell the child what you object to. For example, instead of saying, "Don't climb on the dining room table," say "You may play on the floor or on the couch." Naturally there are times when this won't work, but as a general principle, it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

"GUEST, I don't believe I was sneering. Hard for me to teach by example as I had no children with me."

I wasn't directly my remarks particularly at you and the specific situation you described - there were about thirty posts between yours and mine, some of them describing related situations, and some of them not entirely devoid of contempt.

What I meant by the idea of "teaching by example" is, for example, the possibility of engaging the annoying child in some little game - even if it's not your child, and the parents witnessing how their child can be dealt with in a positive way. It takes a village, etc. (I'm talking in general way; don't take this as some kind of personal attack).

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM

You are right Guest, my younger child is 11. Depends what you class as expensive/inexpensive I guess. I have to say that my daughter was reading this thread over my shoulder this morning and said in horror "A computer for a 3 year old??!"

The mother of two of my children's contemporaries at school was working overtime to buy her son, then aged 10, £1000 worth of quad-bike for Christmas. The child would have been far better to have her time. She was getting it because 'other kids had them'. The particular child and his sister were given 'things' of quite high value on a regular basis and valued them not the slightest.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:06 AM

"What is wrong with picking up and carrying a three-year old who won't get ready for nursery school. I am definitely of the pick them up and transport them school of thought."

Because then it takes 3 hours to get ready instead of 5 minutes! And it is a bit difficult to pick up and carry a reluctant child to nursery when you are also trying to push his baby brother in a pushchair.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:34 AM

As far as the computer goes, my children started at that sort of age with a program called "Fun school" but we would not have thought of getting them their own computer. I persoanlly feel that buying children very expensive things for birthdays and Christmases gives them the wrong messages. Especially since a lot of it is more to "Keep up with the Joneses" than anything else.

GUEST, I don't believe I was sneering. Hard for me to teach by example as I had no children with me.

Villan, I don'd in any way believe this child had Autism or any of the other related conditions. As I said, he wasn't really being naughty, just normal (and bored). Would the child being autistic have made it ok for the father to threaten him with a nurse and a big stick?

I have to say that the parents weren't getting wound up or angry. The threats were made in a perfectly conversational tone of voice. It's not that they'd tried to make him behave and been ignored or anything

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:51 AM

Lots of good posts, by and large. Some I disagree with. Peace, you were spot on that the parents were clueless. Ranger Steve, right on.

Let's assume that those parents were unable to get someone to mind their charge and he had to accompany them to the hospital. From the pusillaminous utterences you get a very clear clue as to what parenting skills these folks had: NONE. Outrageous threats that even a three year old could see would never be carried out. Just a little verbal dance and business as usual. That is to say that the parents had abdicated their parental responsibilities.

As I said in the spank/nospank thread lack of discipline, appeasement, empty threats and the like proves to your child that YOU DON'T CARE about him. You don't love him.

Further proof of these clods indifference is that they didn't care about the other people around them and what THEIR condition(s) may be. and they were perfectly willing to make a boogey man out of Santa Claus and a Witch out of the nurse, just so they would not be percieved as the real bad guys in the situation.

One parent simply taking the child out side to play or walk on the grounds would have been a sufficient and caring resolution to the scenario. Many other creative and caring resolutions could be advanced. These people were clueless and unfortunately there are many who are taking the same path with regards to childrearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:50 AM

No-one ever said that bringing up kids is easy but I think there is truth in the saying 'You spend the first part of your cognitive years being bugged to death by your parents and the rest being bugged to death by your kids....I guess we all have to handle things in the best ways possible using knowledge gained from others unless we are experienced.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:31 PM

Sorry I was so glib.

Most children respond very well to diversion.

I cringe when I hear parents threaten their kids. The kid soon learns that the parents never follow through and the behaviour continues.

Everyone brings to parenting their own set of rules. Those rules change depending on the child but when the chips are down, isn't it amazing to watch yourself reverting to the same method your parents used? My mother used to say cruel things to me. The day I said something cruel to my daughter, I cried for hours. Its not easy to be a parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:29 PM

many years ago I worked in a grocery store. One day I was standing in an aisle, when a mother with a boy about 5-6 came by. He had a cowboy outfit on, with a cap gun in a holster. He looked up at me and said, "I'm gonna shoot you!"...I looked down and replied, "Oh, you are?"...."Yeah!" he said,.....and hauled off and kicked me in the shin!

His mother IMMEDIATELY took in the situation and told him....."Now, Jeffrey, don't do that..."...in the weakest little voice I can imagine. I moved away...


Later, I was in a checkstand, when who should show up in my line but Cowboy Jeffery & Mom....she started unloading groceries on the belt, and Jeffrey, bless his little heart, climbed UP...onto the moving belt..and began pushing the various items past me...faster than I could check them..(this was way before scanners). Mother, once again on the alert, admonished the little brat her little darling, "Now, Jeffrey, please behave..".
   Something came over me, and I stepped around the end, picked him up under the arms and set him firmly on the floor, saying, "you can't do that...stay down here!"
He stared up at me with BIG eyes and his mouth open...I think NO one had ever told him "NO!" firmly before. I went back to checking, thinking.."Now, I've done it...Mom is gonna get me fired...", but she never raised an eyebrow. She seemed glad to let someone else...anyone...deal with it all.

Obviously, I don't recommend taking action with other folks kids as a rule...but I have seen similar cases where the kids simply had learned..(and kids learn fast)..that they could push the limits.
......I have often wished I could have said what I wanted to Jeffrey's mom, as SHE was the source of the problem. It's a good thing all that happened when I was about 22...at 3 times that, I might have said what I thought....