BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

I'd like to see some documentation for the assertion that ACORN is running ads against McCain on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

It is, however, in conflict with being non-partisan!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

Most reasonable people KNOW that Acorn's leaders and political action committee are more liberal and supportive of Democratic ideals...which, in case you missed it, INCLUDES registering all voters, including Republicans! Being against the particulars of McCain's candidacy is not in conflict with believing that all Americans should register and be involved in the voting process.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

Any illusion about ACORN being non-partisan can be put aside. They are now running ads agains McCain on television.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM

And the Democratic Party is responsible for those two guys in Tennessee who were trying to make a martyr out of Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:59 AM

If people are responsible for the people they employ, then the Republican party is responsible for those two guys who were arrested recently for falsifying voter registrations for the Republican Party. Which means that the Republican party is a corrupt, criminal enterprise.   I guess that means we need to purge millions of Republican voters from the voter rolls now.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:59 PM

This report in the NYT says that a hight percentage of voter registration applications gathered by ACORN were either not new registrations or were rejected for one reason or another, but it doesn't suggest widespread fraud of any sort -- especially not "vote fraud" or fraud deliberately perpetrated by ACORN.

And perhaps the most important aspect of the Republican's assault on ACORN's legitimacy is the diversion of voter rights lawyers' funds and efforts away from protection of the public from ELECTION FRAUD and DISENFRANCHISEMENT and toward defense against ridiculous "voter fraud" charges.

This report also describes the criminal investigation of Mark Jacoby, of Young Political Majors, a firm hired by Republicans for voter registration. Jacoby allegedly used a fraudulent address to qualify for gathering signatures on petitions and registering voters in California and is accused having deceived Democratic party registrants into registering as Republicans. The firm of another Republican operative, Nathan Sproul, has also been investigated for voter registration fraud in several states.

[[ Group's Tally of New Voters Was Vastly Overstated

October 24, 2008
By MICHAEL FALCONE and MICHAEL MOSS

On Oct. 6, the community organizing group Acorn and an affiliated charity called Project Vote announced with jubilation that they had registered 1.3 million new voters. But it turns out the claim was a wild exaggeration, and the real number of newly registered voters nationwide is closer to 450,000, Project Vote's executive director, Michael Slater, said in an interview.

The remainder are registered voters who were changing their address and roughly 400,000 that were rejected by election officials for a variety of reasons, including duplicate registrations, incomplete forms and fraudulent submissions from low-paid field workers trying to please their supervisors, Mr. Slater acknowledged. ]]

NOTE: Lots of voter registration applications, regardless of who collects or submits them, are rejected, at least temporarily, because of incomplete information, clerical errors, or duplications.   (If you've sent in a voter registration application and not yet received your card a month later, you might well send in another one, just in case your earlier one was lost or destroyed.)
Also, part of the job of a voter registration drive is to help make sure people's registrations are up to date, so submitting new cards for people who have changed their names or addresses is quite valid and important.   Those voters would probably not have been able to vote without updating their registration info.


[[ In registration drives, it is common for a percentage of newly registered voters to be disqualified for various reasons, although experts say the percentage is higher when groups pay workers to gather registrations. But the disclosure on Thursday that 30 percent of ACORN's registrations were faulty was described by Republicans as further proof of what they said was ACORN's effort to tilt the election unfairly.

"We were wondering how many were Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse," said Danny Diaz, a spokesman for the Republican National Committee. "The group is really tainted, and any work they do is suspect."]]
This is, of course, silly.   Donald and Mickey aren't going to be issued voter registration cards or ballots, much actually vote or even try to.

[[Republicans had been prepared for months to make an issue of Acorn's registration drive. A year ago, the party's national committee anticipated the surge of new registrations by putting a map of the country on its Web site, labeled "You Can't Make This Up! Vote Fraud."

Democrats and officials with ACORN accuse Republicans of trying to manufacture a controversy to deflect attention from alleged voter suppression activities in several states. Election officials and experts say there is little chance that significant numbers of supporters of either party would actually try to vote through a fraudulent registration.

Over the last few weeks, the ACORN registration drive has become a flash point in the campaign when the flood of new voter registrations prompted complaints from election officials about the high number of improper submissions. State and local officials have begun investigations into possible fraudulent activity in at least 10 states.

If interviews with two dozen voters in the swing states of Florida and Ohio are any indication, Republicans' efforts appear to have resonated with some members of their own party as well as with some independents and Democrats.

"I'd have to see how bad it is and what happens," said Dorrie Cohen, an 82-year-old Democrat in Boynton Beach, Fla. "If it's very organized fraud, I think that I would question the election. If it's just a few people trying something, I don't think I would. However, there's so much on the newspapers and the TV about it, I imagine it will be organized."

Mr. Slater and ACORN officials have defended their voter registration work. They said that it remained technically difficult to weed out duplications without better access to election records, and that their internal auditing identified many of the fraudulent registrations, which they flagged for election officials to review.

"Everybody knows that when 1.3 million applications are submitted, not every single one of them gets on the rolls," said Brian Kettenring, a spokesman for ACORN. "That's common sense."

The Republican drive to publicize ACORN's problems has had another less visible impact on the race, shifting the focus of election lawyers in the homestretch to the Nov. 4 election. Much of the Democratic team of lawyers and operatives who had intended to work on monitoring voter rights at the polls has instead played defense the last two weeks, responding to accusations of fraud.

The Obama campaign has also sought to deflect Republican efforts to tie ACORN's registration campaign to the Democratic presidential nominee, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois. The Republicans highlighted a federal election filing by the Obama campaign that showed an $832,598 payment last February to an ACORN affiliate, Citizens Services Inc., for "staging, sound, lighting." The Republicans suggested that the payment was actually for voter registration. But the Obama campaign said it had mislabeled the payment, and it filed an amended report that reflects the money was for get-out-the-vote efforts.
In a letter on Thursday to Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey, the general counsel for the Obama campaign, Robert F. Bauer, said he worried that Republican Party officials or candidates would pressure the Justice Department to improperly involve itself in the election.

Accusations of impropriety by a Republican voter registration campaign surfaced this week in California, where the authorities arrested the owner of a firm hired by the California Republican Party to register voters. Officials said that the owner, Mark Jacoby, fraudulently registered himself at a childhood address to qualify for gathering signatures on petitions and registering voters.

Mr. Jacoby's firm, Young Political Majors, is also facing accusations of tricking residents into registering as Republicans by having them sign petitions seeking tougher penalties for child molesters.

Mr. Jacoby's lawyer, Dan Goldfine, said that the charges against his client were "baseless," and added that although the authorities have been looking into accusations that Mr. Jacoby's firm improperly registered voters, they did not charge him with those violations.
In June, federal election records show, the California Republican Party paid $175,000 for voter registration work to the firm of a Republican operative, Nathan Sproul, who has been investigated for voter registration fraud in several states. Mr. Sproul could not be reached for comment.

In interviews this week, ACORN officials said they had an extensive program to detect fraudulent applications, which included calling the registrants to verify information provided on the forms. They also said they had combed through electronic records from the group's field offices across the country, and that their internal audit did not show evidence of pervasive voter registration fraud.

Most of the registrations that were rejected were duplicate forms, followed by incomplete forms. The ACORN officials said their investigation found about 9,000 voter registration cards that were determined to be fraudulent. A lawyer for the group estimated that perhaps 5,000 to 6,000 more cards employees turned in were fraudulent. ACORN officials said that 20 percent to 25 percent of the applications it submitted were likely duplicates, 5 percent were incomplete, and 1 percent to 1.5 percent were fraudulent. Mr. Slater said the estimates were based on past registration drives and a sampling of this one.

ACORN officials said they were unable to provide a state-by-state breakdown identifying where the fraudulent voter registrations were submitted, but a spokesman said that at least some bogus cards cropped up in all 18 states where the group had major registration drives. ACORN conducted smaller drives in three other states.

Mr. Kettenring, the ACORN spokesman, said the number of fraudulent cards did not vary widely from state to state, but he identified Acorn's office in Gary, Ind., as a particular trouble spot. After ACORN officials identified the percentage of problematic cards to be "unsatisfactorily high," they shut down the office for three weeks beginning in late August, and brought in new management and canvassers before reopening it.

The group also said it was forced to fire 829 of the 10,000 canvassers it hired during the election for job-related problems, including falsifying registration forms. ACORN officials say they pay canvassers an hourly wage and not by the number of forms they obtain.
Mr. Kettenring said ACORN intended to change the language on its Web site to reflect that 400,000 of the 1.3 million registration submissions would likely be rejected by election officials, but said the group did not intend to be misleading.

In Las Vegas, where state officials raided ACORN offices this month to seize records, the county registrar of voters, Harvard L. Lomax, said his workers had found hundreds of potentially fraudulent registrations beyond those identified by ACORN.

"What this has done is undermined confidence in the system, because voters don't understand that we have checks and bounds," Mr. Lomax said. "I'm confident in the integrity of elections here."

Echoing other election officials, Mr. Lomax said registration fraud could be sharply reduced if registration workers were all volunteers. "I have a solution: Make it illegal to pay people to register to vote," Mr. Lomax said. "Money is the root of evil."

But ACORN officials say that paying workers helps their voter registration drives succeed in signing up large numbers of minority and low income voters.

Joseph Hickson, an automobile designer from Naples, Fla., who is registered as a Democrat, said the voter registration issue would be made moot by a large margin of victory for Mr. Obama.

"It really depends on how much of a landslide he has — if he has one," Mr. Hickson said. "If it's close there may be some questions."

Renee K. Feltz contributed reporting.

Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company]]

Sounds to me like "voter fraud" could only swing the election if a state's electoral college votes were "won" by a mere handful of votes.   
Even if voter registration fraud -- registering the same voter multiple times or registering dead people or fictional characters -- were widespread, it's hard to see how this could result in a lot of actual VOTES being cast fraudulently.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

Spread the wealth, that's what I always say.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

It's an interesting kind of drift, isn't it - starts off being passionate supporter of one Democratic candidate. When she fails to win, switches to "nothing to choose between McCainn and Obama", moves on to "on balance McCain"; ends up praising Fox News, demonising Obama, and looking forward cheerfully to the prospect of Sarah Palin as president.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

Rig:

I assume your eyes have always been brown?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:10 PM

"Spread the Truth About ACORN"


                The Republican Party and Fox News alreayd have!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

Donna Brazile remarks:

"...The so-called ACORN scandal is no more than a few canvassers trying to meet their quota and make easy money by cheating the system.

Ask yourself how likely is it that someone would go through the effort and risk of submitting multiple false registration forms, find an accomplished forger capable of producing IDs of sufficient quality to trick election officials, and then spend Election Day racking up a couple extra votes at the potential cost of spending a decade in jail?

A simple cost-benefit analysis tells us this is not a reasonable or significant threat. The real threat here is the Republican Party using attacks on ACORN as a calculated strategy to justify massive challenges to the votes cast in Democratic-leaning voting precincts on Election Day. And this is what is truly outrageous, but where is John McCain's concern when it comes to people being harassed at the voting booth?

The same Republican Party shouting "Voter fraud!" is also furiously trying to prevent Ohio from registering voters at early voting sites and suing to shut down some early voting sites in Indiana.

Just as the GOP will use the so-called "Bradley effect" to explain away voting irregularities it created through voter suppression, it will use allegations of voter fraud to cover its efforts of voter suppression.

McCain and Republican candidates up and down the GOP ticket don't want increased voter turnout.

Let them sputter and fret. A swelling of the voter rolls strengthens our democracy. The more eligible voters we have participating in the process, the stronger we are as a nation -- and the more accurately the results on November 4 will reflect our nation's choice for president.

We must be vigilant in protecting people's right to vote, not vigilant in suppressing it. We must be vigilant that new voters aren't threatened, harassed or turned away. And we must be vigilant that resources like voting machines and poll workers are distributed appropriately to accommodate the projected influx of new voters.

Finally, we must be vigilant that this election, unlike 2000 or 2004, doesn't return conspicuous voting irregularities, and that those irregularities aren't left unchallenged.

We must be vigilant in the protection of our democracy because the way things are going in the United States right now, democracy may be the only valuable left in our national treasury."...

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Donna Brazile. (CNN)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM

Bobert cannot carry on a conversation with out injecting race into it.

He is the racist. He believes people of one race deserves different treatment from people of another race.

His type will keep racial prejudice alive forever.

If somebody does fraudulent things, race has nothing to do with it.

The organization that hires people that do fradulent things is responsible for the actions of the people they employ.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

The kind of disenfranchisement the GOP is supporting is criminally abusive to the democratic ideals of the country.

Notice that they typically do not seek to disenfranchise the apathetic know-nothing voters who vote every year based on no information except the last burst of rumor.

They seek to disenfranchise those for whom a more equitable national organization would be beneficial.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM

Actually, that's no longer true. The internet has made it possible for Obama to raise a lot of money without having to use a lot of money in the process. Obama's organization is incredibly effective at harnessing the power of the internet, and that's how he has gotten most of his money. With that money he built a large and very effective ground organization that has multiplied the effect of the money he gets online, which allows him to buy advertising, and that generates more financial contributions. But it started with the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:08 PM

"He gets his funding through having an incredibly effective organization, both nationally and locally."


                  This is kind of a chicken-or-the-egg kind of a proposition. Without massive funding, an effective organization is impossible to construct--at least in America.

                   With the kind of funding that Move.On and others have been able to direct to Obama, there are any number of people who could do as well as he did.

                  If you're getting information about this from reading his book, one would only caution--consider the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM

I'm reading his book, Audacity of Hope right now. He won his Senate seat by driving all over the state of Illinois, just talking to people wherever he could get the chance, and winning them over to what he had to say... mostly by listening to them and then pointing out how much most people have in common and what can be done to bring people together rather than dividing them.

He doesn't rely on others to get his message across. He does a very good job of getting it across himself. That's why his rallies get such large numbers of people attending them. If he didn't have a message that people responded well to, it wouldn't matter how much effort MoveOn put out to try to get him elected. MoveOn is just another way to get information. They don't shape how people think.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

Not hardly. He gets his funding through having an incredibly effective organization, both nationally and locally. I know, because I've done some volunteer work for his organization, and I've seen how it operates.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:05 AM

"His funding comes from millions of voters (in small amounts)."



                        Manipulated by one big media center!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM

I guess we haven't progressed as far beyond Jim Crow as we though we had.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM

From today's Guardian this piece about the efforts which are being made to stop people from being able to vote if it's thought they are likely to vote the wrong way:

The manipulation and intimidation that African-Americans must face in order to cast a vote will only get worse this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:49 AM

That's one of the reasons I prefer Obama to McCain this time around. His funding comes from millions of voters (in small amounts). His campaign has democratized how a campaign gets funded. So that makes him beholden to a lot of regular voters rather than a few special interests. I intend to hold him to a high standard if he gets elected, but at least he will know who he's going to have to answer to if he wants to get re-elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:53 AM

As posted before, by yours truly, its the corruption that is our biggest enemy..both in breaking the laws, and not enforcing the ones, that could clean house! The hypocrisy, and selective enforcement depending on the political agenda being promoted, without the will of the people, to me, makes virtually all politicians suspect!!

....As for 'Princess', the goldfish, she wasn't exactly bribed, but she went for it hook line and sinker!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:47 AM

GfromS, I would welcome the government using RICO laws, with equal vigor and without bias, to investigate and prosecute any and all organizations suspected of either voter registration fraud, voter fraud, voter intimidation, or election rigging/tampering - or all of the above.

As for "Princess" being involved in "voter fraud," get some footage of her showing up at the polls to vote and you'll make a mint! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:20 AM

They wouldn't be in any trouble at all if they didn't break any laws. And they didn't. The Republicans have been saying all of this same stuff about ACORN since 2000. If there had ever been any truth to the allegations, ACORN would have been shut down years ago. Obviously, they haven't been, and obviously, there was never any truth to any of the allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:13 AM

If the Attorney General's office went after ACORN, with the RICO statute, they'd be in a world of hurt!!

One to add to your list, Genie, They found a goldfish, named 'Princess' registered!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:52 AM

Sawzaw: [[Acorn takes taxpayers money and pays people to register voters. Those people bribe people with cigarettes and cash to fill out multiple registration forms which is a felony.

If Acorn lets the people they pay with public funds from doing this, they are abusing the use of public funds.

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' " he said. "]]

Come on, Sawzaw.   Sweeping generalization from a couple of anecdotal incidents?   Maybe Freddie Johnson's telling the truth. Maybe not. He could be just seeking publicity. He could be one of the people trying to sabotage voter registration efforts. Who knows?
But even if he's legit, it proves nothing except that one, or a few, ACORN workers tried to cheat ACORN.

Once again, ACORN DOES NOT ISSUE VOTER REGISTRATION CARDS or add people to the state's voter registration rolls. The state is not likely to issue voter registration cards to Disney cartoon characters, dead people, vacant lots, etc.   Especially if those "applications" have been flagged by ACORN as "questionable" or "suspect."   

Given the absurdly careless way that the Help America Vote Act was put together and run through Congress, it's far, far more likely that T. Boone Pickens will be kicked off the voter registration rolls in Texas because he goes by that name for business but the IRS and Social Security bureaucrats insist on identifying him as "Thomas B. Pickens."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:36 AM

The minimum-wage ACORN worker (or whoever it was) who filled in fake voter registration applications SHOULD be prosecuted, mainly to discourage other shirkers and pranksters from pulling similar stunts (wasting ACORN's money, taxpayers' money, etc., and gumming up the important work of letting citizens vote). But that offense probably is, and should be, a misdemeanor, punished by a fine and/or community service.
The important crimes that are, or at least should be, felonies and that really need to be vigorously prosecuted are things like these:
~tampering with electronic voting (or vote-counting) machine software
~falsely "notifying" or advising citizens of changes in precincts, changes of election dates, etc.
~voter intimidation in the form of harassment of would-be voters by "challenging" their eligibility at polling places without probable cause.   (Note: someone's race, apparent ethnicity, gender, manner of dress, etc., or the location of the polling place is not probable cause for questioning someone's eligibility)
~voter intimidation by fraud, e.g., sending messages to students falsely informing them that if they vote at their campus location they will lose their scholarship eligibliity; sending messages to urban residents that if they have outstanding parking tickets or are late on child-support payments they will be arrested on the spot if they try to vote.
~deliberately omitting or distorting the name or party affiliation of a candidate on the ballot (e.g. leaving Bob Barr's name off the ballot, listing Barack Obama as "Barack Osama," or listing John McCain as an Independent).
~state election officials deliberately allocating disproportionately more voting machines to suburban precincts than to urban ones.

The various and sundry serious election fraud tactics are not going to stop or even slow down until some people face serious jail time for them.   (Fines won't do it, because they don't matter to rich people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:35 AM

Yes, I hope the Democrats fight illegal voter disenfranchisement tooth and nail this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:40 PM

"If Acorn had been smart they would have burned the bad registrations rather than give zealots the opportunity to say that someone who registered as Harry Potter of Grifendor is tearing the fabric of democracy to shreds."
No way.   If they were even ACCUSED of selectively destroying voter registration applications -- much less, observed doing that -- they'd be subject to even more serious allegations, investigation, and prosecution.
Despite the Republican-driven and media-echoed brouhaha over "Mickey Mouse" and dead people trying to register, ACORN has broken no law by turning in those application cards.    In fact, in most states they're required to turn them in.

ACORN is an organization engaged in many projects, not just voter registration.   They do tend to focus their community work (on behalf of education, legal rights, etc.) on urban areas and do a lot of work with lower-income and minority people. In that sense, I guess you could say they tend to be "liberal" and work more with groups who tend to vote Democratic than with groups who tend to vote Republican. But that's not the same thing as being "partisan." Especially when it comes to voter registration drives.

BTW, there's nothing unethical or illegal about a nonprofit organization focusing most of its efforts on a subset of the community (e.g., Native Americans on reservations, inner-city disadvantaged youth, battered women, unwed teen mothers, African-American youth, etc.). Lots of nonprofits target subgroupds. They're just not supposed to discriminate in administering their services (e.g., refusing to let people register to vote unless they register as Democrats, refusing meals to non-Christians, etc.).

But I blame the Democrats -- and, yes, Barack Obama too -- for not using their media spotlight to set the record straight about the difference between "voter REGISTRATION fraud" (which, apparently, some people tried to commit, either out of laziness, a twisted sense of humor, or maybe even the attempt to sabotage ACORN), "VOTER fraud" (someone ineligible voting or voting twice or buying someone else's vote), and "ELECTION fraud" (the systematic kind, that changes the outcome of elections at the local, state, or national level).   

If the Democrats lose this time, in spite of exit polls that show them winning, they have themselves to blame for not raising bloody hell about the widespread ELECTION tampering that can so easily happen with massive voter registration purges, voter intimidation, inadequate facilities for voting (making wait times long), malfunctioning machines (e.g., broken machines), and electronic voting machines that use proprietary software and provide no transparency or means of checking the accuracy of the count.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:01 PM

Actually, Barry, I agree with you!..and if ACORN was helping those who can't make it to the polls, or facilitating them, in any way, to exercise their right to vote, well good for them. If it is used for the manipulation of anyone they are helping, to further a party's agenda, for a buck...well, that's a different story. Someone, somewhere can get to the bottom of this, and get it over with!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:46 AM

Yeah, apparently Saez is only interested in quoting Right wing propaganda which leave out the 99% of the folks at ACORN who abide by the law...

That is what is called "over generalization" and "over generalization" is the the basis of racism... Now we are back to the "Big Lies" of the 60's that are being dusted off and reused by the McCain folks...

Sawz will never see himself as a racist but you can take it to the bank that he his furthering racist propaganda here in Mudville...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM

So it appears that some people employed by ACORN have defrauded the organisation and broken the law. ACORN has tried to identify where this has happened,and has informed the relevant authorities. As a result it gets accused by partisan opponents of colluding with and encouraging the offenders.

This is a bit like saying that if someone on a check-out counter in a supermarket is short-changing the customers, the shop is to blame, especially if it takes steps to spot the offender and deal with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM

The only "news" source I can find the first quote in is the New York Post. We've already seen how they distort and fabricate things to suite their propagandist agenda. I think I'll reserve judgment on that one until I see it from a less propagandistic source. I didn't find any news sources for the second quote. Just blogs and forums.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

"Okay, the truth about ACORN, is it is a corrupt political organization. A good place to start, to prepare one for higher office....and that's the truth!"

It's a damn shame that it's citizen groups & organizations like these that see to the needs of the voting public, espically those with limited resources, finiances & limited time, education & where all when it should be the right of every citizen to vote freely without the harassment & intimidation from the powers that be. Voting should be accessable & made easy to all. It should not be the responsiblity of anyone but the government's to make that happen. Voting in the US needs to be monitered by a world watchdog group just as we claim we should be watching other nations where we know that the electorical systems are tampered with by elected officials. The untracable & falable voting with diebold should be tossed & some are worried that ACORN is a threat, please. We've had less than a handfull of voter fraud cases throughout the whole country & millions have become disinfranshied, that's bullshit, who's the asshole here. The poor are screwed when it comes to voting, they have trouble with finding the time to vote, working 2 or more jobs with no time off, election day(s) (should be held over a long weekend-Friday-Saturday-Sunday) should be a work holiday. The poor ought to be offered FREE PUBLIC transportation to the polls, be shelterded for the elements if they have to wait hours to vote. Those that are raving about ACORN sicken me, they ought to live in the real world instead of looking around with their heads up their asses it's no wonder all they see is shit.
OK, "bring it on".

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:04 PM

"ACORN doesn't bribe people to fill out multiple registrations"

Read very carefully the things written in newspapers, not blogs:

Acorn takes taxpayers money and pays people to register voters. Those people bribe people with cigarettes and cash to fill out multiple registration forms which is a felony.

If Acorn lets the people they pay with public funds from doing this, they are abusing the use of public funds.

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' " he said. "

Bobert can puff himself up all he wants and blame things on racial bias but it does not change the facts. Acorn is pissing his tax money away on frivilous illegal activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:38 PM

But it's true that as long as that kind of massive voter disenfranchisement is going on, this country really can't be considered a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Video the Vote doesn't help prevent disenfranchisement for a lot of people, though (as much as I applaud their efforts). For instance, it doesn't help the people who are having to wait for hours in very long lines in Florida because the Republicans if Florida changed the law and severely decreased the number of hours the voting places could remain open. What they're doing could help the next election, but by then they'll have thought of new ways to disenfranchise voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:00 PM

Of course signing up to get registered is only part of actually getting to vote. This is an interesting initiative aimed to help bridge that gap, or at least show up when it doesn't get bridged - Video the Vote 2008:

Video the Vote is a national initiative to protect voting rights by monitoring the electoral process. We organize citizen journalists—ordinary folks like you and me—to document election problems as they occur. And then we distribute their footage to the mainstream media and online to make sure the full story of Election Day gets told.

Of course it is pretty weird to have a situation in which people feel this kind of thing is necessary. But it would appear that they are right to feel that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM

Right, Carol...

That is why McCain is going around tellin' his folks that Obama wants to take their money away and give it to other people...

Of course, this isn't what Obama is talking about here but...

...what John McCain's supporters are hearing has nothing to do with reality... It has to do with the ol' Welfare Cadiallac Mother, a "Big Lie" from the 60's and that "Big Lie" has alot to do with race...

I mean, anyone old enough to actually remember the 60's remembers well the "Big Lies" that "The Establishement" used to portray Black people as lazy and no-good... The 60's was the decade of codified Jim Crow...

It is very sad that John McCain has chosen to resurrect the codified Jim Crow racism of the 60's but that is exactly what he is doing... The attak on ACORN is nothing more than yet another run of Jim Crowism... It's like when Redneck American cheered when Lester Maddox threatened to beat civil rights workers to death with a baseball bat...

Hey, let's get5 real here... There ain't no hidy holes here where racists herein Mudville can hide as they deliver one slam after another against an organization that is doing purdy much what the folks who Lester Maddox threatened to kill some 40 years ago...

I am sick that folks can actaully bullsh*t themselves into thinking they are on the "right side" on this argument when their only interest is keeping as many potential Obama voters away from the polls...

You all know exactly who you are...

And, inspite of your protestations, you are the unAmericans among US...

Square business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM

That's true. The climate in the US has become (since Reagan got elected) one of blaming the poor for their misfortune. Anyone who tries to advocate for the poor (like ACORN, for instance) gets trashed in both political discourse as well as in the popular media. It's almost like people think poor people have some kind of contamination that rubs off on anyone who tries to advocate on their behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:16 PM

Yes, McG... In terms of actaul numbers there are alot nmore poor white people... But in terms or porportion, Blacks people still are disporportionatley pooree than whites... That is where race enters into the ACORN debate...

"Trailer trash" isn't a block of voters that can be pinned down but I would guess that most would vote McCain... But you don't find these folks in urban areas where ACORN does most of it's work... You find more Black folks...

Like I said, there is an under-current of racism in slamming ACORN for what it does...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:59 PM

So if Acorn can't pay a living wage, that seems to indicate they need more money, tied to a commitment to use that on higher wages.
................................
Yes, I understand that being Black and being poor go together disproportionately in the States (and not just in the States). And that is also true for Hispanic people. But I understand there are actually a lot more poor White people than poor Black people or poor Hispanic people in the USA. See here.

And my impression is that there are people who would shy away from making racist comments about poor Black or Hispanic people don't feel the same reluctance to use terms like "trailer trash" for poor Whites.

And I note that while your politicians are always taking about "the Middle Classes", those who are lower down the economic scale seem to be largely disregarded in public discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM

I wasn't referring to opinion pieces in my 25 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM post. I was referring to articles that are presenting news items. Of course, people should use the same methods when debunking opinion pieces if those opinion pieces are being used as though they are supporting what someone is presenting as facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:55 PM

Yes, McG, it is also about class... But undeeneath it all it is also about race since a disporportionate number of poor people are also Black...

And thank you, Carol, for pointing out that I did not say anything close to what Sawz says I said about bribing people... That came straight out of his head... And its a lie... No two ways abnout it...
I don't think that Sawz has any idea how voter registration actually works... I do... I was the voter registration captain for the Obama team here in Page County... Those ACORN folks, like me and my folks. only present people an opportunity to register by filling out the forms... The forms then go to the "registrar" who checks for accuracy and to make sure that folks aren't allready registered... That is the real world... No bribery... No conspiracy... Just democracy at work...

Sawz must not like democracy at work since he makes every attempt to discredit the folks who are out there trying to get people to participate in democracy... I can't think of any other plausable reason why Sawz would be so critical of folks becoming voters??? Maybe he/she will explain wher he/she has against people having and exercising their right to vote??? Maybe he/she won't???

Doesn't cvhjange the fact that the assault on ACORN by McCain and his supporters is a non-issue... It's even below flag burning as an issue...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM

ACORN's Minimum Wage Hypocrisy

ACORN doesn't want to pay the "living wage" it foists on other employers. ACORN has tried to get out of paying the minimum wage to its employees.

In 1995, ACORN sued the state of California, claiming that it should be exempted from the state minimum wage. The group realized the simple economic fact facing all employers: being forced to pay higher
wages means that you must employ fewer workers. A legal brief filed by ACORN during the appeal of its lawsuit admits:

As acknowledged both by the trial court and California, the more that ACORN must pay each individual outreach worker—either because of
minimum or overtime requirements—the fewer outreach workers it will be able to hire.

This argument is particularly ironic. In 1996, when New Orleans business targets of Rathke's minimum wage increase campaign acknowledged the economic reality that increasing the cost of labor would lead them to reduce employment or cut hours, Wade Rathke snapped, "If their business is that marginal, they probably shouldn't be in business."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

Opinion pieces are not (or at any rate, should not be) cited as evidence, except as evidence of the opinion of the people who write them. They may point in the direction of evidence, and in some cases the fact certain people (eg Colin Powell) have particular opinions is significant in itelf..

That applies whether the opinion concerned is that of a someone posting on the Mudcat or the Daily Kos or Move ON, or an editorial writer in a newspaper.

The essential principle should always be that of CP Scott, who wrote in 1921, on the occasion of his 50th year as editor of what was then the Manchester Guardian, "Comment is free, but facts are sacred."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:40 PM

ACORN doesn't bribe people to fill out multiple registrations. It takes a special kind of bone-headedness to think an organization like ACORN would think they could get away with that and not be shut down.

ACORN pays people to register voters. Some of those people defraud ACORN by filling out fake registrations. ACORN flags those registrations they think are not legitimate and they alert the authorities about them. People can keep repeating the same lies over and over, but that doesn't make them true. This kind of dishonest bone-headedness on the part of the McCain people is one of the reasons more and more Republicans are deciding to vote for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM

When people quote sources like DailyKos and MoveOn, people are free to point out in what ways the material in those sources is wrong, as I did with the New York Post. If they just say (as many do), "that's not a credible source", but they don't provide any counter arguments, they have not made a successful argument against that source. I didn't do that. I said they're not credible, and then I debunked their arguments. I made a successful argument against that source.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM

I'd surmise that it is probably as much about class as about race.