BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

Registering voters is something which anybody of any political persuasion should see as a good thing, even if they think those voters are liable to vote for the other side.

Every citizen who is not able to register to vote represents a failure of the democratic system.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM

Obama's campaign did not donate any money to ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:54 PM

Sawzaw: Reportedly Obama's campaign contributed $800,000 to ACORN. I'm sure there were no strings attached to the donation. Campaign officials probably said, "get as many Republican registrations as you can get! We are bi-partisan."

We will just have to wait and see what the various Justice Department investigations turns up on the organization. So far the news doesn't look good for ACORN.

I heard the other day that Henry Waxman had agreed to holding hearings in Washington, but "unfortunately" he can't get around to scheduling them until after the election. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

Acorn has defrauded the taxpayers.

ACORN and its affiliates have a multi-decade history of fraud and abuse of taxpayer funds. Recently, the
Consumers Rights League released a whistleblower report that uses internal ACORN documents to
highlight alleged misuses of taxpayer money by ACORN Housing Corp, which took in 40% of its funds
from the government and sent more than a million dollars to ACORN's affiliate, Citizens Consulting.


http://www.consumersrightsleague.org/uploadedfiles/Latest%20Million%20Dollar%20ACORN%20Scandal.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:44 AM

Everyone's not a victim of ACORN. ACORN has been doing the best they can with the resources at their disposal. And they have helped a lot of people. It's organizations like ACORN that help poor people when the government won't. Organizations like ACORN are the "Bailey Savings and Loans" of this country who are fighting the "Mr. Potters" of this country. They're one of the few things that have been standing in between the poor people and the Mr. Potters of this country.

It's easy for someone who is financially comfortable and living in a country that has universal health care to sit in judgement of the job ACORN is doing, but anyone who really cares about poor people won't be helping the Mr. Potters of this country remove one of the few sources of help the poor of this country still have.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM

Well .... I guess everyone is the victim.

another view of Acorn


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

I'm sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for someone who would commit a crime that could do the kind of far reaching harm to our democracy that submitting false voter registrations can have. And I say this as someone who worked for minimum wage many times in my life. He's not the victim. The voters who are being disenfranchised as a result of this guy's actions are the victims. A lot of them make minimum wage, too, and they're far less likely to get any help with their health care and meager wages with McCain in the White House than if Obama's in there. A lot of people are being denied the vote today because of that guy and others like him, and many of those people really need some help. Help they're not going to get from McCain. And I say this as one of the people with no access to medical care.

So yeah, when people do things like that, they need to face some consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

We still don't know the salaries of the people at the top who run ACORN. I'm not making any accusations; I'm just saying we don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

I would have sacked him too LH !!

Can't find good help anywhere these days ... and the salaries they demand ... whew !!

Hope ya find that toothbrush.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

I know how you feel. I can't find my gold toothbrush, and my valet did quite a poor job on polishing the Porsche! I've sacked him for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:16 PM

Damn it ... jeeeezuz H. ... somewhere in posting my rant above I've misplaced my glass of Chianti ... now where the hell is it.

biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

The link provided by Bill D provided more information than just the average salary ($34,000); if you scroll down, you see concrete examples of some of the highest salaries for specific job titles.

It is possible to make as much as $72,000 as "Director." That's pretty good money, but then again I'm not sure that there is more than one Director in the entire organization. The top person responsible for an enterprrise of similar size in the private sector would certainly be making more than than, probably more than twice that amount.

The next-highest salaries, for accounting and finance specialists, are in the $62-to-65K range. A "Community Manager" ~ probably the head honcho of each local chapater ~ makes a modest $39,000, not much higher than the ACORN-wide average of $34,000.

All in all, pretty defensible, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM

Acorn is a reflection in a system that has failed ... period.

NcGrath's last statement in his thread above is true ... but somehow the Republicans or the Democrats just don't get it, and aren't gettin it.

Now .. throw me to the wolves.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

Mickey Mouse can't vote. (He might register but will be flagged at the polls)

ACORN abuse is rampant by Republicans only. It's a partisan issue and there is no
voter fraud here.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

Here is the whole TRUTH about acorns:

Eat too many of them and you will get a really bad bellyache, your hair will fall out, and you'll experience delusions of being Woody Allen whenever someone brings up the subject of pastries or pedantry.

Note: the above warnings do not apply if you are a squirrel or a chimpmunk, only if you are human.

DON'T overeat when it comes to acorns!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

So I take it the critics of ACORN would like it to have more money so that it could pay higher wages to its workers, and could afford to keep open offices which weren't registering that many people? That sounds fine to me.

The bottom line should be that, one way or another, everyone who is entitled to vote needs to be registered, and that registering voters should not be seen as a partisan exercise, but as something that a democratic society has a absolute duty to ensure is carried out effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

I should add ... the election doesn't really mean a damned thing to that guy who was fudgin the ballot stuff .... when everyone is arguing about Joe the Plumber, McCain's high school record, $millions$ spent on election advertising, bank bailouts where the guilty are left to take take $millions$, $12 billion a month spent on a war which is a lie, no medicare, no hope, ... what should we expect.

Yup ... throw him jail.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:42 PM

In fact in SJ .... it's usually the burger flipper working on the drive by window, who is substituting his pathetic salary pushing drugs. Crime in many cases is sourced from the fact the the individual cannot make a decent humane salary from his/her job. Must be very hard in the U.S. were one does not have medicare. Can't believe how one can provide for a family of 3 $8.00 an hour. But throw him in jail and bail out the banks with an arbitrary figure of $7 billion ... a considerable amount of that is going to the bonuses of the banking executives.

Off topic somewhat ... when was the last time Congress increased the minimum wage and by how much? $8.00 doesn't get ya far in city like Seattle (where that guy lived). Minimum wage earners ... the forgotten populace.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:38 PM

It might be fun to compare the salaries of ACORN executives and managers to those of CEOs of major corporations, most of whom supported Republican causes and candidates, .... and compare them relative to the 'average' worker in those companies.

   What? You don't think that would be fun? *tsk*

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM

"The average salary doesn't really tell us that much. "

true ... point taken in the manager's salary of a Burger King ... aint much at all, in fact it's a joke ... but it's certainly more compared to the guy flippin burgers.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

With United Way and some others, a few people at the very top made (I want to say over a million, but I can't recall for sure) but it was very substantial. Most people did not make any where near that much.
          The average salary doesn't really tell us that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

define huge

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM

Good point Rigin.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

One of the most aggravating things about non-profits is, the rank and file workers hardly make anything, and the management people often pull down huge salaries. I'm not saying this is true of ACORN; I don't know. I wonder if anyone does?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: jeffp
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

ACORN is just like any other poorly-funded nonprofit. Forced to take whoever it can get to try to accomplish its mission. If you don't like the job you're doing, why don't you volunteer to register new voters in your local area?

Of course, it's easier and a lot more fun to point fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM

BTW .... I'm a proud commie socialist who happens to beleive in a decent minimum wage, healthcare benefits for all workers, and the right for all workers to form a union.   :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

What I'm saying is Acorn hires people who are on the low end of the social economic chain ... desperate for work ... Acorn hires them puts the pressure on in regards to quotas saying if not met, no job, no pay, no food and roof for the family.

Acorn is just like any other sweat shop employer taking advantage of the low end workers. A theme right out of Glengarry Glen Ross. $8.00 bucks an hour ... how is anyone supposed to feed a family with $8.00 and hour .... along with the threat of losing your job hanging over your head.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM

And of course, yet once again, those who are pointing fingers at ACORN, are completely ignoring the same thing when done by Republicans, like the California Republican Party, and the company they hired that has been submitting falsified registrations as well as fraudulently switching people's registration from Democrat to Republican.

More propaganda from the McCain camp.

Several years ago, I notice that schools had started a propaganda campaign to get more people to buy school lunches. I also noticed that around that time, the school lunches had become fairly inedible. The reason they had to resort to propaganda to get people to buy the lunches is because they sucked, and nobody with any sense would buy them on their own. Same for the Republicans. If what they had to offer was in the best interests of the majority of voters, they wouldn't have to resort to propaganda to get people to vote for them. And they wouldn't have to resort to massive election fraud to disenfranchise those who won't vote for them.

The Republican (American Fascist) Party has outlived any usefulness it ever had in the past. Time for it to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM

I suppose the disenfranchisement of low-income, or ethnic monorityu voters is a Social Good in Sawz' book.

He has not answered my earlier question about how he would handle the flow of occasional bad registrations or straight-out fraudulent registration cards submitted by low-dollar volunteers with low ethics and a high motivation to produce names. What ACORN does is flag them for close scrutiny before turning them in to the Registrar's office as they are required to do.

I submit that the implication that these bad cards are part of an ACORN plot is defamatory and disingenuous. It's fine to be enthusiastic about your side in this game, but slinging mud like this is below the salt. Take it from one who's done it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

Again..those workers are breaking the law and should be fired...and maybe prosecuted, if the D.A. thinks it's worth it.

They think they are being clever & turning in a bunch of forms to make them look like they are working, but it's stupid!

ACORN itself is a victim when some people associated with it, no matter at what level, pull such stunts. It just causes extra work and garish headlines....even though it almost never registers an illegal voter.

Pointing fingers at this problem to fix the problem is one thing, but pretending that it indicates a widespread attempt to load the voter rolls with bad registrations is patently false.


"Wowee! We found another instance of lazy, no-conscience hourly workers! It just proves the whole ACORN organization is corrupt! I know....let's go post the story on Mudcat and embarass all those commie, liberal Obama supporters!"

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:50 AM

How is that guy who defrauded ACORN a victim of ACORN? I would say that ACORN is a victim of people like him. He defrauded them, took their money, and created a situation in which it is becoming more difficult for that organization accomplish its mission of registering voters.

Every day, people face difficult choices. Most of us don't choose to commit fraud and violate election laws as a way of making the choices easier. That guy didn't just hurt ACORN. He hurt all people in this country who are struggling and whose votes are being disenfranchised.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:33 AM

Well Well Well

Everybody that thinks it is acceptable to pay people to fill out false registrations [example: Daffy Duck, Jive Turkey and 7 year olds] and bribe people with cash and cigarettes to fill out multiple registrations with taxpayer money, raise their hands.

1 VOTER, 72 REGISTRATIONS
'ACORN PAID ME IN CASH & CIGS'

CLEVELAND - A man at the center of a voter-registration scandal told The Post yesterday he was given cash and cigarettes by aggressive ACORN activists in exchange for registering an astonishing 72 times, in apparent violation of Ohio laws.

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the left-leaning Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' ".

Johnson used the same information on all of his registration cards, and officials say they usually catch and toss out duplicate registrations. But the practice sparks fear that some multiple registrants could provide different information and vote more than once by absentee ballot.

ACORN is under investigation in Ohio and at least eight other states - including Missouri, where the FBI said it's planning to look into potential voter fraud - for over-the-top efforts to get as many names as possible on the voter rolls regardless of whether a person is registered or eligible.

It's even under investigation in Bridgeport, Conn., for allegedly registering a 7-year-old girl to vote, according to the State Elections Enforcement Commission.....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:12 PM

me? copy & paste.... from Sawzaw's

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:26 PM

Jeeze, Bill D., I'M impressed! How did YOU get those symbols in your post?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:22 PM

the real victims of ACORN ...

just trying to keep a job

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

I hoped Sawzaw would know how he got those symbols in his post.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

It looks like sanskrit!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:32 PM

â€쳌 ... ’ ... ????

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM

"??? such as? It was an honest question"

The assumption I questioned was that Sawzaw had in fact heard that allegation rather than just dreamed it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

There's a movement afoot to strip ACORN of its federal funding. The organization has become so partisan that they can no longer claim tax-exempt status. The IRS will be on them next, if they aren't already.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM

New York times knew about this report in June but it purposefully withheld it from the public until October 21 because of it political bias.

Acorn Report Raises Issues of Legality

   
The June 18 report, written by Elizabeth Kingsley, a Washington lawyer, spells out her concerns about potentially improper use of charitable dollars for political purposes; money transfers among the affiliates; and potential conflicts created by employees working for multiple affiliates, among other things. It also offers a different account of the embezzlement of almost $1 million by the brother of Acorn’s founder, Wade Rathke, than the one the organization gave in July, when word of the theft became public.

“A full analysis of potential liability will require consultation with a knowledgeable white-collar criminal attorney,â€쳌 Ms. Kingsley wrote of the embezzlement, which occurred in 2000 but was not disclosed until this summer. In a telephone interview on Monday, Ms. Kingsley and Bertha Lewis, Acorn’s top executive, said the group had begun addressing the concerns raised in the report.

“Has everything been done yet? No,â€쳌 Ms. Lewis said. “We’ve been at this for three months, and we have taken everything she said in the report very seriously. It’s a huge undertaking.â€쳌 Over the weekend, Ms. Kingsley said, the national board adopted several good-governance policies, like appointing an audit committee for the first time.

Disclosure of her report, which was distributed to Acorn and 10 affiliates, increases pressure on the organization at a particularly troublesome time. Besides the inquiries into its voter registration efforts, Acorn faces demands for back taxes by the Internal Revenue Service and various state tax authorities. At the same time, foundations that have backed Acorn are withholding support.

Ms. Kingsley’s concerns about the way Acorn affiliates work together could fuel the controversy over Acorn’s voter registration efforts, which are largely underwritten by an affiliated charity, Project Vote. Project Vote hires Acorn to do voter registration work on its behalf, and the two groups say they have registered 1.3 million voters this year.

As a federally tax-exempt charity, Project Vote is subject to prohibitions on partisan political activity. But Acorn, which is a nonprofit membership corporation under Louisiana law, though subject to federal taxation, is not bound by the same restrictions.

“Project Vote and Acorn have a written agreement that specifies that all work is nonpartisan,â€쳌 Michael Slater, Project Vote’s new executive director, wrote in answer to e-mailed questions about the relationship.

But Ms. Kingsley found that the tight relationship between Project Vote and Acorn made it impossible to document that Project Vote’s money had been used in a strictly nonpartisan manner. Until the embezzlement scandal broke last summer, Project Vote’s board was made up entirely of Acorn staff members and Acorn members.

Ms. Kingsley’s report raised concerns not only about a lack of documentation to demonstrate that no charitable money was used for political activities but also about which organization controlled strategic decisions.

She wrote that the same people appeared to be deciding which regions to focus on for increased voter engagement for Acorn and Project Vote. Zach Pollett, for instance, was Project Vote’s executive director and Acorn’s political director, until July, when he relinquished the former title. Mr. Pollett continues to work as a consultant for Project Vote through another Acorn affiliate.

“As a result, we may not be able to prove that 501(c)3 resources are not being directed to specific regions based on impermissible partisan considerations,â€쳌 Ms. Kingsley said, referring to the section of the tax code concerning rules for charities.

She also found problems with governance of Acorn affiliates. “Board meetings are not held, or if they are, minutes are not kept, or if minutes are kept, they never make it into the files,â€쳌 she wrote....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM

ACORN, by its very nature, is a number of 'local' groups with some guidance by national officers...any individual group can be run more or less efficiently and/or carefully. That is what has been confusing. Only a few places have reported these silly & blatant submissions of fake registrations. There has been no evidence of real 'illegal' activities, in fact the fake registrations the Republicans are demanding be investigated were already flagged by the groups which submitted them as problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM

Sorry, Alice, I can't do that. Trotting out the Executive Director, a board member of Acorn, and Interim chief organizer of Acorn to defend the organization just isn't enough. What would one expect them to say? "Yeah, we're cheating?" Right.

Now if the entire Dallas Cowboys football team (which was listed on one of the registration forms turned in by Acorn) turns out to vote in Florida, I might revise my thinking. I think I would rather await the outcome of the many investigations being conducted by the Justice Department into the possible illegal activities of Acorn before becoming it's champion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:42 PM

☺

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:28 PM

That's because nobody is taking them seriously!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

no denying? Mercy! I know lots of folks that have denied it. They have not been struck by lightning.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:57 PM

Still, there's no denying, that ACORN outfit must be made up of a bunch of nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:04 PM

With the full weight and money of federal government prosecutors they have prosecuted exactly 24 people over 6 years.

There have been 2.3 million voters that have been removed from the rolls due to foreclosures, poverty, ethnic status and the new 2006 law based on the success of Catherine Harris tactics.

Colorado is looking at purging 20% of the voters.

24 fraudulent votes vs millions purged is a bit lopsided.

and rich white bigots want to keep it that way.

If your name is White aged 35 and above with your own home, you will probably not have your vote challenged.
If you are a college student or have an ethnic name or are part of the armed services overseas, your vote will probably disappear prior to counting.

If you mailed in your vote there are over 50 picky criterion to throw your vote away such as not an official envelope, you abreviated your middle name instead of writing it full on your registration etc.

If Acorn had been smart they would have burned the bad registrations rather than give zealots the opportunity to say that someone who registered as Harry Potter of Grifendor is tearing the fabric of democracy to shreds.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM

You're absolutely right, Don. And "None of the Above" would probably win most of the elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

I understand ACORN to exist as many chapters in many places. Because it is fragmented in such a manner it easy to see how in some places ACORN may be operating as it originally intended and in others it may have an agenda that is clearly not non-partisan.

The fact is I trust neither side to play fair, honest, or by the rules.

Factcheck.org has as many items that support ACORN as condems it. We all have to vote but vote with clear eyes. I can't support either of these choices that have been thrust upon us. So I am truly tween the rocks and shoals this time around. And I probably always will be until they have a "None of The Above" lever to pull.

Don