BS: Can People Forgive?

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM

Stars
.....and you had some interesting thoughts too.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:02 AM

What a lot of interesting and intelligent posts! Mudcat really is excellent with this type of thing. Thank you everyone for your ideas and comments. I feel quite reassured and encouraged to continue to grow in my understanding of this subject. Best wishes to all. Eliza x

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:28 AM

I forgive George Lucas for the dialog in the last three Star Wars movies.

And I do this only because I must.

I even forgive him for Jar Jar Binks.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 09:16 AM

Max said what this guy is saying. When he told me where he got it, I wasn't that surprised.
Yoda on Destination Darkside

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 08:56 AM

Someone did me dirt many years ago. Since then, I have forgiven her, but I would never trust her again in that area.
Forgiveness does not mean condoning what she did.
With the help of real communication with her, I was able to forgive and we are now close friends. However,I will never forget.

Holding a grudge is like allowing that person to live in your head rent free.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM

What's all that hogwash about me never doing anything wrong Kevin?

That's a mental leap I would expect from the usual shallow suspects.

I said I have never sinned in the Christian sense because I am not a Christian. Do keep up. If you read into that that I have never done anything wrong, you stereotype with the worst of them. I merely said that to judge as a Christian, you have to judge a Christian because that is the only remit. My acts, thoughts and knob gags can be judged by people, but not on the basis of heir membership of something irrelevant to me.

Mind you, fair enough, I am a psychopath.   

Not sure about the happy man though. I was only saying to the wife's sister in bed this morning.......

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:42 AM

Eliza, please do not worry too much about words. Anger and outrage are normal reactions to observed wrongdoings, comparable to eating being a reaction to felt hunger. Eating too much is unhealthy and may be a sign that something is wrong with the person's regulatory system. If you work on it as much as you can, you will do yourself and others a favour. Just feeling bad does not help anybody. Neither does measuring oneself against an abstract ideal.

As for prisons, libraries have been written about their aims and reasons, with considerable success, albeit far from conclusive. Excessive collective outrage, like its private counterpart, can be detrimental to forming a peaceful and meaningful society.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 05:42 AM

In my work with prisoners, I saw that even the judicial system isn't clear about punishment, retribution, rehabilitation and forgiveness. It appeared to be a very muddy area. No-one could tell me exactly what the aims were in putting people in prison, and a prison record was always a barrier to finding work, no matter how remorseful the ex-inmate. The idea of pardoning people who hurt one personally is one thing, but we are all members of society which punishes wrongdoers in our name, so the wider picture does apply. I don't find anger and non-forgiveness damaging personally; as has been said above, it reinforces my moral compass and my standards of behaviour. Such a lot to reflect upon! As I told the vicar yesterday, one can always pray humbly for enlightenment and guidance, which I do, as my religious exam score would be 5/10 for effort, but 1/10 for success!

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 05:27 AM

As Joe wrote about forgiveness,

It's letting go of the desire for revenge or retribution

- personally. I think it (or at least the willingness, as Ebbie writes,) is a requirement for any notion of faith, however general. It has nothing to do with leniency in moral judgment. Neither it affects civil punishment and the fight against crime and injustice. Lizzie, think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM

If you've never done anything you think is wrong, Musket, you're an unusually happy man. That's assuming you're not a psychopath, which I do.
.......................

Forgiveness, as has been said, is something you do for something that's been done to you. I suppose that includes the indirect hurt that's been caused, so you might be able to forgive someone who had hurt a friend for the pain that caused you, but you wouldn't have the right to forgive on behalf of the friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 02:42 AM

Eliza's dilemma is summed up inadvertently by Jack the Sailor when he points out I don't know what Christians believe.

Too true I don't. I'm not a member so don't know the rules. But neither does anyone, Christian or otherwise if they have issues that need someone to forgive them for.

Forgiveness is something everybody can and does decide upon at a personal level. Being a member of a religion or not does not make it any different. Sounds to me that controlling the congregation isn't just a medieval tradition in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 02:18 AM

Joe O, I agree with you about the layers surrounding forgiveness. I had a brother three years older than I (who has since died. I had nothing to do with it, I swear :) who had a tortured psyche all of his life and he spent that life torturing others. No one in the family knows how he became the way he was, but I know it was very early in his life. There were 10 years at times when he and I didn't speak- our dad once said to me, I thought you would make allowances for him, since he is your brother. I told him truthfully that if he hadn't been I'd have dropped him long ago.

Anyway, there came a time a few years back when I became willing to forgive him. Mind you, I hadn't done it yet but I was willing. So I wrote him a short letter saying that I forgive him and asking for his forgiveness. He wrote back: "Gladly. Hope you can do the same."

We didn't meet often during the rest of his life but when we did, although we never spoke of the letters, we chatted freely if a bit warily.

My point is that I had not yet forgiven him but I was willing to achieve that state. And that was enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 01:49 AM

I wonder what it really means to forgive another person. I think it has many layers of meaning. It's letting go of the desire for revenge or retribution, and figuring out a way to continue a civil relationship with the person who caused the offense. It's not dwelling on offenses, and not allowing our lives to be ruled by anger against real and perceived offenses.
Just about everybody we know, will offend us at one time or another. If we dwell on those offenses, we're not likely to have a happy or constructive life. Forgiving is a hard thing to do, but it's the only way we can carry on with life.

Now, about religion and forgiveness....I hate the bumper stickers that say, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." It's an attitude of smug superiority that implies that the owner of the bumper sticker is bound for his/her "heavenly reward," and others aren't (and are probably damned to hell for all eternity). I think a case could be made that God is the essence of forgiveness, not somebody who doles out forgiveness only to Christians and damns everybody else. I found six instances in the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures where it says that God is loving and forgiving, slow to anger, and rich in loving kindness. Some might say that to them, God is the essence or embodiment of every virtue, and that the quest of humankind is to reach out and attempt to attain those virtues.

The idea of a vengeful God who must be repaid for offenses, seems to be mostly prevalent nowadays among Evangelical Protestants - particularly in the United States. In days gone by, it was a concept popular among the power elite, who sometimes made use of it to control the unwashed masses. But through the history of religious faith, there has also been a view of a deity who cares for humankind and does not dwell on their misdeeds.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:19 PM

While I do often judge the moral worth of others, I don't see that I can claim an objective right to do so. I have no reason to think my worth by virtue of the fact I am alive on this earth is in any way superior or inferior, i.e. more or less moral, than the existence of any other person, animal, insect, or micro-organism, whether or not I deem their actions to be moral, life-sustaining for me, my family, my tribe, my species, my particular natural neck of the woods, the earth, or the universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 10:15 PM

Jeri, I think that is pretty the Christian view as well. The call for us to forgive does not negate justice or give absolution.

From a societal point of view is punishment for a higher purpose than revenge? I am happy to forgive a paedophile even if he does not express remorse as long as he serves his time and we do everything possible to ensure he cannot repeat the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 09:56 PM

Thanks. I think forgiving is just giving up the grudge. It doesn't mean you're absolving the other person, or thinking they shouldn't be punished legally. It just means you let go of your own stake in it. Of course, I'm not looking at it from a religious point of view.

Think about who suffers when you don't forgive someone. Not the other person. Of course, I suppose one could also not forgive someone else for "making" you feel all that bad shit, but if you're finding reasons why it's right to do so, it's not anyone else's fault but yours. It's hard to move forward when you're always trying to fix what already happened, and you get twisted.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 09:18 PM

Jeri and JAnie said it well enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:29 PM

I empathize with Eliza's initial post:   when she heard that "as a Christian, one should forgive absolutely anyone, no matter what they've done".   

I don't like blackmail of any kind.

I also really value forgiveness.   But carrying resentments could have their value too......if that's what we choose to do. It helps to reinforce our own values.    If our resentment is harming our own mental or physical health.........then I think forgiveness is a great option.

If we want to do some 'work' with the perpetrator to assist them to take responsibility first........great.    If we decide that doing that is giving the perpetrator too much 'power' over us....so we'll forgive unconditionally!   Just as great.

As for "Matthew 6:14-15
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."?   I say what a terrible reason for choosing forgiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:03 PM

Musket, It is clear that you don't understand what Christ said about forgiveness and what most Christians believe.

This sums it up pretty well.

"Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:59 PM

here is a list of bible verses about forgiveness

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

That is perhaps the most important principle from Jesus' ministry.

Eliza, The way I see it. You are not asked to forgive those who sin against others you are told that if you forgive those who sin against you, God will forgive you for your sins against others.   

I can't claim to know what Jesus knew 2,000 years ago, but he was a very intelligent individual. Others here have made similar points to this. Forgiving is for the forgiver. I think it is easier for a camel to roller skate across the Sahara than for an unforgiving person to have peace of mind. That's why you should forgive those who trespass against you. Even if they steal or do you violence. Don't get me wrong here. You should still aid in the prosecution. If you thought they were a danger and you wish to prevent another victim from feeling your pain you can speak against them in a parole hearing or refuse to give them a character reference. But for you be forgiven by God, you have to, in your heart, forgive the criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:14 PM

Yes, there is free will in most cases.
Yes, there is responsibility in most cases.

No, people should not be forgiven without them facing up to what they've done, in most cases, showing real sorrow for how they've made someone else feel and asking that person for forgiveness.

No, not everyone should be forgiven.

No, if someone is insane, they still do not have to be forgiven by the victim or relatives of the victim, if they don't feel like forgiving them.

Why should people forgive those who can't even bloody well apologize in the first place, or show any remorse?

FAR too much pressure is put on people these days to forgive the guilty people anything at all...almost giving others total freedom to behave like Absolute Shits and STILL be forgiven for it...

And if the Church wants everyone to forgive, it's more likely because it gets them off the hook of having to ask forgiveness from all the wonderful, innocent people they've traumatized throughout history...

Oh..and if anyone ever attacked/raped/abused/murdered my children, or someone I loved, I'd kill them, if I were able to, bugger forgiving them.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:02 PM

Janie just said a lot of my feelings on the matter.

I tend to think of forgiveness in a couple of ways... in the traditional religious sense (wiping away all blame and concern?), and in a personal sense of simply 'not letting a former situation interfere in current interactions with a person'. As has been said, that is not the same as 'forgetting'.
Once, a guy I knew (who I already had some low opinions of) came into my house uninvited and physically assaulted another friend over a stupid matter. I threw him out and thereafter refused to associate with him... that is, I did not 'forgive' him... even when he asked someone else why.

Then... my ex-wife was careless and disposed of some personal items of mine before I could visit & retrieve them (she could easily have taken them to my mother's house.) In the 2-3 times I met with her or talked to her after that, I didn't bother to mention it. I still 'remember' and am sad about the lost items, but I don't really think it was a hateful or mean thing. Thus, I 'forgive' in the sense that, if I saw her, I'd not bring it up.

That may not totally express all senses of forgiveness, but it perhaps gives a bit of a perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 06:01 PM

I think the point which impressed me most in Janie's post, were the words, "when one is able to do so". I know for a certainty that there are some things which I could never forgive, but accept that bearing a grudge is destructive in some ways.

I think it is possible to be too forgiving, I think perhaps our society is becoming brainwashed, our sympathy for wrongdoers of all descriptions, seems to outweigh our compassion for the victims of their evil deeds.
We have lost our moral compass.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:45 PM

There is, of course, a whole other aspect to all this, namely the psychological/philosophical one, centred on the question, 'Is anybody really to blame for their actions?' Modern research is starting to show that brain damage, genetic traits, early head injuries etc coupled with traumatic experiences/abuse during childhood can produce a character who may be morally bad, even evil. Should that type of person be forgiven for their wickedness, or at least understood and pitied? In other words, is there truly free will in such a case? I would tend to say not. On that basis, I can forgive. After all, when one of my cats wees on the curtain, I forgive him, because he's only doing what cats do. I feel this is more scientific than religious.   Such ideas were of course wholly unknown 2000 years ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 05:35 PM

Thanks Janie.


Err Goofus. Your slip was Freudian. A huge difference between don't understand and can't understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:28 PM

I mostly agree with you, Musket. Regarding forgiveness being subjective - I guess my answer is I suppose it depends on what one means by forgiveness. Also think there is both a more abstract notion of forgiveness that is philosophically based, and a more personal concept that impacts one emotionally, and is applied to personal relationships. Those personal relationships may vary from tenuous to very close, but certainly effect our behaviors toward others that fall anywhere within the realm of our personal circles. One of the main variables may be at what distance is knowing or knowledge of a person and their circumstances distant enough to not be experienced as personal, combined with what was/is the nature of that relationship, the personal harm done or not done, and one's intimate knowledge of the either the person or the circumstances that surrounded the transgression - not to mention the nature of the transgression.

Maybe Jeri said it best early on in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:54 PM

Musket: "Not sure Christians are the link here. It applies, if indeed it does, to all."

"..and don't criticize what you don't understand"...Dylan


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:49 PM

Good point Janie. A friend of mine went to prison a few years ago. I wrote a character reference for the sentencing court. I said that I could forgive the sinner but not the sin.

After all, he had pleaded guilty and had been convicted. I am sure the balance of his past community work, friendship and support over the years made my view somewhat subjective. I wasn't a victim, and in this case, the victims were third party rather than people you could name, but my view was skewed by his exemplary past. Not to mention the fact that a good friend was in a position nobody wished to see anyone in.

What I learned from that episode was that judgement should be cold, even and without prejudice. Perhaps forgiveness is subjective too? When society says time is spent, should anybody express lack of forgiveness? I accept that I see my friend and his wife, we go out for meals and drinks etc, yet some other friends of mine cannot understand why I still give the time of day to him. I see their point too, but we are who we are.

Not sure Christians are the link here. It applies, if indeed it does, to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:34 PM

If you're going to sin then THINK BIG. Murder one person and you risk spending a big chunk of your life in prison. But murder thousands - or even millions - and there's a good chance that the world will 'forgive' you and allow you to die peacefully in your bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 01:32 PM

Eliza 12:59pm because I know I could never forgive some of the most heinous, evil deeds, not even if the perpetrators have been thoroughly punished. Oh dear. :)

Can you forgive the person, rather than the deed?

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:59 PM

Lots of very interesting points of view so far, and much food for thought. Mudcat folk have so much wisdom to share. I do feel that 'bearing a grudge' is harmful, and carrying bitterness around for years does one no good at all. Reconciliation is nice, but it depends with whom. The vicar talked about Maureen Greaves, and also the completely different attitude of the family of Mark Duggan (shot by police, as it was thought he was armed) He also spoke about warring neighbours, boundary disputes etc. I must be a really crabby, crusty old thing, because I know I could never forgive some of the most heinous, evil deeds, not even if the perpetrators have been thoroughly punished. Oh dear. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:55 PM

Janie said,
"I will say that the benefit of forgiving, when one is able to do so, is primarily to the person who forgives. Resentment is a painful and often self-destructive emotion."

Exactly so, very well put.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:40 PM

The story reported here.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/22/maureen-greaves-forgive-killers

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:34 PM

'Unforgiveness' is a waste of time and energy, and is detrimental to all those who employ it!

'Unforgiveness' is the act of being 'pissed off' because someone who's offended you, has not been 'punished enough', to YOUR satisfaction, regardless if the other person has learned from it, or not.

In the course of WAITING for that 'punishing vengeance', the longer you wait, the more like the person who wronged you, you become. It's called 'emotional focus'....and really, aren't there better places for your head to be thinking about, or creating???....or as they say, "If someone gets your goat, you must have a goat to be gotten!!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:34 PM

I heard the wife of that elderly church organist who was murdered on Xmas eve a year ago.
She said she had forgiven the killers, who she called by their first names.
She was quite clear that they should suffer the consequences of their actions, a long prison term.

To be so forgiving is hard.
She is a better Christian than I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:33 PM

Paraphrase: "Nothing common to the human condition can be alien to me". I think that understanding is the key to forgiving. I'm not using understanding in the sense of "I would have done the same thing" but instead as being able to accept that, given the processes in that person's mind, I can see how that person got to that point.

But understanding the sequences of thought in that person necessarily dictates that I/we/society must be alert and cautious with that person, and of course, that person's actions have consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM

I tend to have a measure of agreement with you in some respects. I don't think that it is our business to forgive on behalf of someone else wronged, but as a Christian I am called to forgive those that ...trespass against us.....as per the Lord's Prayer .there is also the example of Jesus ....forgive them father, they know not what they do. Also when Stephen was stoned....lay not this sin to their charge....I find it helpful to remember that forgiving is an act of the will, and that feelings may not follow for a while.i also do not think that just because we may forgive that the due process of law should not be pursued in cases of criminal activity, especially in some cases, for example, paedophiles who may need help as well as punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:57 AM

You are not a rubbish Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:54 AM

Being serious for once... The whole Christian ethos is around everyone being sinners and it is up to Christianity to forgive them. I'm not a sinner because nobody in a dog collar has the right to judge me by dint of their membership of something I'm not signed up to. So it falls at the first hurdle.

Now... I'm not influenced by any religious creed or thought, but the idea of putting some fictitious general sin in the same boat as real sin, such as the ones Eliza mentions.... Christians have no right to forgive or otherwise. People forgive, and being a member of your church or any other doesn't elevate the person to any higher moral ground at all.

A prison chaplain would soon find themselves out of a job if they went around forgiving in that sense. The parole system itself states you are not forgiven till you show remorse.

You aren't a rubbish Christian Eliza. At least you are trying to make head or tail of the concept. I rather doubt you will find a satisfactory answer though..

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:53 AM

Cross posted with all that was already said, and better than I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:52 AM

Well, I'm not a Christian, and I try to stay away from "shoulds." I will say that the benefit of forgiving, when one is able to do so, is primarily to the person who forgives. Resentment is a painful and often self-destructive emotion to lug around in one's body and mind.

Also, I do not understand "forgive" to mean forget, nor to remove the other of their responsibility for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:47 AM

...pretty much what GUEST said without all the extra words.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM

I can forgive anyone. Forgiving only affects the one who decides to forgive or hold onto the hurt. Forgiving does NOT mean I can't mistrust or dislike someone, because that's based on who I think they are, not what they've done.

When you don't forgive, you keep holding onto hope that things can be made right, and that's far more poisonous than just letting go of the whole mess. Especially if you're the only one who wants something to happen or wants a specific outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:44 AM

To forgive is one thing. To forget: there's the rub.

Subject: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 11:33 AM

Interesting discussion this morning in our church about forgiveness. Apparently, as a Christian, one should forgive absolutely anyone, no matter what they've done. Found this a bit hard to swallow. For me, a person has at the very least to show a bit of remorse and be determined not to do it again. I asked if paedophiles should be forgiven, even if they intend to continue their activities? Yes. What about serial burglars? Yes. People such as Hitler etc who have committed mass atrocities? Yes. Should the parents of an abused child forgive the person who did it? Yes. Now I think this is outrageous. Only the victims themselves can decide to forgive, and others have no right to dictate to them. It was even suggested that punishment is out of order, and kindness/understanding is better. Surely this would result in total anarchy? A line has to be drawn somewhere. Obviously, I'm a rubbish Christian! What do others here think?