What price the truth!!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 11:12 AM

"All this debating seems to prove one basic point,...."

PROVE? You have a very strange notion of 'proof'.....you have people agreeing with you that Jesus was likely NOT real, or at least not 'holy', and you can't even take 'yes' for an answer.

Bye

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 10:56 AM

Oh, by the way, voting for the Democrats and Republicans isn't healthy either. Supporting illegal invasions of small countries (as your Mr. Blair did) isn't healthy. And buying into the consumer lifestyle can also be quite unhealthy. All these are more vital matters you might concern yourself with at this point.

Surfing endlessly on Mudcat is unhealthy too, but I haven't managed to overcome that one yet! We all have our weaknesses.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 10:38 AM

So, how do you explain the fact that I've never been a churchgoer, was raised as an atheist, don't belong to any particular religion, and still believe that Jesus really existed (as a physical human being, I mean, with a whole lot of wonderful spiritual teachings to give)?

You gonna blame the church for that, Tunesmith? Ha. I laugh! I've regarded churches with grave suspicion for most of my life, and as a small child I walked out of Sunday school class on the 2nd or 3rd session, vowing to never come back, because it was all a bunch of fairy tales as far as I was concerned. You don't hold the monopoly on rationalism and objectivity, my friend, you're just a man who's jumped onto a particular bandwagon, and wants everyone else to jump on too. You oughta go into politics and satisfy that zeal to convert others to your own way of thinking.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 07:26 AM

All this debating seems to prove one basic point, the church has done its job well. Blind faith in the existance of Jesus in the face of so much evidence to the contrary is, well .... amazing! Brain washing! Indoctrination! Call it what you will, but it can't be healthy.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 Jun 03 - 03:23 AM

If Jesus Christ never existed, what's going to happen to the bloke over here whose research just proved that he was homosexual?

:-))

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: PeteBoom
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 10:34 PM

Having read this entire bloody thread, I've reached a monumental epiphany.

I suspect Tunesmith is a Uni student (or generally recent grad) who has latched onto an idea from a lecture with all the fervor of a true believer. Anyone asking questions or trying to clarify general points is shot down as blind (if TS was arguing for the existance of Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph and Mary in the popular accounts - "Christ" was, after all, a Greek title accorded to him sometime after his mythical death) he'd be calling all the people asking questions heretics.

I find this remarkably ironic.

I should be practicing. So I will.

Pete

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 09:23 PM

Well, the fundamental is the same, LH -- in the face of confusion, loss, betrayal, people grab for any stable viewpoint, and there are a lot of artificial ones out there which, like cheap plaster agents, look like they will fill the hole or stabilize the confusion. And they do as long as you don't jar them, but not being flexible in the way that self-discovered t4ruth is, they set one up for later avalanches.

In this respect asserted religion and asserted atheism are one and the same Band Aid.

A

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 09:02 PM

So...how come that guy I knew turned to atheism when experiencing loss and stress in regards to his church-based faith?

I think loss and stress can swing people either way. It has been said though, that there are no atheists on a battlefield. Yup, it's been said, but it's probably not quite always true.

I regard people who put their faith in modern political parties to be participating in bizarre cult activity based almost entirely upon faith, given what I have seen in the last few decades.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 07:02 PM

The predisposition to religion is not genetic, IMHO. It is a response to loss and stress.

Infinite goodness on tap is a great remedy to a painful bout of brick-wall-itis.

A

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 06:59 PM

Absolutely true, Don. I knew a "born-again atheist" in Orillia, and he was an utter fanatic...spent all his time trying to convert the whole world to atheism. For him it was a holy cause. :-)

The same fellow had previously been a born-again Christian, by the way, and had become disillusioned. His method remained the same...harass people until they see it your way, wave your favourite book in their faces and demand that they read it, and simply don't take no for an answer. He could have written a book of his own called "How to Lose Friends and Alienate People".

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 06:44 PM

I'm afraid it's hopeless.

The religious fundamentalist and the anti-religious crusader are the world's two most rabidly closed-minded and pig-headed types in the world. You can't tell them a thing because they already know it all.

Don't waste your time.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 05:47 PM

You could convert to Islam, Tunesmith, like Cat Stevens...but no, wait! The Muslims also believe in Jesus! Well, geez... (oops!) Okay, how about becoming a Wiglafarian, then? They only believe in Harry Lee Wigley, and NO ONE would dare question the existence of Harry Lee Wigley. Ask Khandu for details.

And if that doesn't pan out, join the WSSBA and worship William Shatner. He is real. I can guarantee it.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 05:33 PM

Tunesmith...I struggle with the problems presented by organized religion daily, but you are being as careless and slippery in your arguments against a historical Jesus as THEY are in support of him!

It is not likely to be possibly to prove or disprove this point, but the way you are approaching it is likely to more harm than good for your thesis.

You seem to me to have an axe to grind, and you are as willing to skew logic as the fundimentalist Christians are to make some sort of point.

It makes no difference whether the story of Jesus resembles earlier stories or not...that proves nothing either way. If you NEED to 'disprove' classic Christianity for some reason, there are easier roads to travel.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 05:32 PM

So, why not concentrate on the central parts of the message, rather than the "mythology"? That's what is important in the message.

What difference does it make whether someone turned water into wine (most probably a symbol) or various other such things?

What is important is the spiritual philosophy imparted by Christianity.

I think it very probable that Jesus existed, merely because the events of his life had such an enormous and lasting impact on first, a small group of followers...and then, a much larger group...eventually converting the Roman Empire itself from the top down against absolutely collosal odds. Such things are not started or inspired by mythical people, no more than the Buddhist religion or the Hindu religion was...BUT...the followers of such people are very inclined to concoct exciting myths or exaggerated stories or symbolic stories about their prophet AFTER HE IS GONE.

And I think that is a very large part of what happened. It was natural that the followers of Jesus who survived him would come up with stories that fitted the traditional culture they were living in. Thus they borrowed all kinds of religious ideas that they could relate to, and wrote a bunch of books which we know as the New Testament.

To suggest that Jesus himself did not exist is far less plausible than questioning the accuracy of the people who wrote stories about him after the fact.

When a stone is thrown in the water it makes a splash, and the ripples keep spreading for a long time. To suggest there was no such stone as Jesus doesn't strike me as plausible when the ripples are still all around us. Do you know of any completely fictional person now who has that kind of impact on people? Not bloody likely. It takes a real prophet to launch a religion.

There were many, many other would-be prophets and messiahs around at that time, but they are barely remembered, if at all. Jesus is remembered. That in itself is the clearest indication that he did exist, just as did Buddha, Ghandi, Sri Ramakrishna or a host of other such people.

Consider another example: Robin Hood. I doubt that the story of the real man who started it all was much like the one we hear (which had a lot of Celtic mythology woven into it), but a real man certainly must have existed as a catalyst to start the whole thing off in the first place, and he must have been fairly unusual to have that sort of impact on people.

Once people form a belief (religious or not) based on faith or partial information (and what information is not partial?) they also form an emotional attachment to the belief, and defend it tenaciously.

I think, Tunesmith, that you have formed such an emotional attachment to the idea that Jesus never existed. It has become important to you. Other people have equally strong emotional attachments to the idea he did exist. How about you respect their right to their attachments if they respect your right to yours? Why do other people have to be wrong? Why can they not just be different?

If Jesus had never existed, we wouldn't be arguing about this... :-) We'd be arguing about someone else, most likely.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 05:26 PM

The Santa Claus legend is based on the real Bishop of Myra:

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 05:24 PM

I'm manipulating one of Chomsky's theories here, but it seems to me that there is a certain type who is predisposed to religious belief.
It's as if they have a "religion blueprint" set in their brains. Unfortunately, this excludes them from being one of life's freethinker.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 04:59 PM

My post has nothing whatsoever to do with statistics.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 04:56 PM

we need to think outside the box here, people, clear blue skies. maybe THIS is the answer.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 04:43 PM

Wolfgang: That's a good move. Bring statistics into the debate, that always muddies the water.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 04:26 PM

And the more elements recur, the more that in itself becomes the interesting point.

"...turn your cosy, safe world upside down and you don't fancy that at all..."

Stop trying to wind people up, and come up with a tune to match that handle you've adopted.

Of course, if we get other GUEST leap in screaming and shouting and denouncing GUEST,Tunesmith the suspicion will arise that it's the same guy playing with himself. Or herself.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 04:25 PM

Tunesmith,

your central error is to assume that there is only one possible interpretation to a set of data presented.
BTW, it is always interesting to learn new things about oneself though I fail to see what puts you in a position to teach me new things about myself.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 03:59 PM

McGrath of Harlow. Give Over! It's not just one element that's reoccurs, it's every element!! Listen very carefully, the story of Jesus is simply a rewrite of earlier myths! If you, and all the others, can't see that then there's only one explanation: you're in denial, and it's not that you can't see it - you simply refuse to see it, because, if you did. it would turn your cosy, safe world upside down and you don't fancy that at all.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 03:26 PM

Just because something has happened before, or just because it's been said to have happened before, doesn't disprove it.

But the Joesph Campbell suggestion, passed on by the O'Meara, makes a lot of sense. The fact that certain elements recur in the kind of stories people have told to explain the world implies that there is something in those stories that resonates, to use a word that came up very appositely in a recent discussion about songs.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 02:30 PM

OK. Where do I start!!
A)I think the evidence for the Bible Jesus being a fabricated story is overwelming! It is a fact, that nearly every major event in his life -as reported in the Bible - mirror events in the lives of earlier God/Men; And to those I listed 23 June 01.25pm a lot more can be added e.g. the King ( Herod in the Bible ) who tries to have the baby god/child killed by the slaughter of the innocence is found in many pre-Christian myths.
B) This idea that the existance of there pre-Christian god/men with a similar profile to Jesus is common knowledge among your average Christian is nonsense! A year ago I was talking to a group of Catholic teachers, one of whom had studied the early- Christian Church at college( a Catholic College ), and they were flabergasted at the parallel lives of Jesus and the pre-Christian god/men. If this educated Catholics were ignorant of such connections, I'm pretty sure your average Christian Church-goer is even more in the dark. It is not in the Catholic Church's interest to encourage its members to start asking questions.
C) And by the way Wolfgang, you are not an atheist!

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 02:07 PM

I'm just as suspicious of fundamentalist Christianity as you are, Tunesmith, but it hasn't stopped me from pursuing spirituality or finding spiritual meaning in my life. My suspicion is that Jesus would be about as upset with many of the churches founded in his name as you are...and with good reason!

There are a fair number of Americans who hold fundamentalist Christian views, but I doubt that they comprise a majority. I'll tell you what the majority-held religion is in North America: CONSUMERISM, that's what! Worship of money and material goods. And you will find that that is the key ingredient behind American policy, as well, with religious fundamentalism simply coming along now and then as a handmaiden to the remorseless search for profit, excess, and material gain.

Build a religious shrine, and a handful of people will come there. Build a casino, and twenty-thousand people will pour through its doors every day, in hopes of getting something for nothing. That's what I call FAITH, considering the fact that 98% of them get fleeced.

As for TV...most of it is a spiritual wasteland. People are brainwashed by it every day of their lives for but one purpose: to sell commercial product. An inevitable side effect is the promotion of mind-numbing conformity in society, and mental laziness, and the desire for instant gratification (same principle as a casino).

One way to escape it is to gut the damn TV and turn it into a plantholder. Another way, which I have suggested from time to time, is to take it out into the backyard, execute it with a shotgun, and celebrate the recovery of a large chunk of your waking life! This is frowned on in some municipalities...but, oh, is it ever satisfying. :-)

I would be all in favour of an open questioning of the assumptions of traditional religion, as you suggest, on TV or elsewhere...but you are unlikely to see it, because it wouldn't sell much product. Instead, count on more stupid shows with sex, violence, "attitude", and other marketable stuff like that. Crap sells in America. Serious content? Forget it.

Like I say, consumerism is the dominant religion here. Its main tenets:

1. Material stuff is the only thing that really matters in life.
2. If some stuff is good, a whole lot more stuff is better.
3. Buying more stuff will make you happy.
4. Having more stuff means you are successful.
5. Buying the right stuff will make you sexy and desirable and maybe even keep you young longer.
6. People will love you if you buy the right stuff.
7. He who dies with the most stuff wins. Everybody else is a loser.

All in all, it may just be the most simple-minded, destructive, wasteful religion in history. Maybe. In 500 years it has taken a once pristine continent and turned a very great deal of it into a garbage pile overrun with people who have no idea what to do about their predicament.

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 01:46 PM

What's the upsetting part? Amos has asked in the second post in this thread and this is still the question without a clear answer, Tunesmith.

With each new post you change the focus.
not enough people are asking questions about the institutions that control great areas of our life Many here would agree with that sentence who do not at all agree with what you write about religion.

I'm upset that people in power lie to us. Here, too, hardly anyone will speak against you.

Whether there was a historical Jesus or not? That can be debated, but what you have given us so far is a very thin argument and, at least to me, thoroughly unconvincing.

That earlier myths from other people have been integrated into the stories of the Bible? For most Christians I know, such a thought is hardly upsetting, neither for their personal faith nor from a rational point of view, but then we scarcely have any literal-minded Christians over here.

Now, in your most recent post, you come with a comnpletely new argument, namely that The Bible, and the insistance that it is a true word-for-word account, has led to the death of countless thousands.

If you would be clearer in what you attack and change the main topic of your atteck less often there even might be a debate. You might even get support from an atheist like me in one or two points. The way you do it with sweeping generalisations and an unclear focus of attack you come over as a completely unfair critic of most of Christianity. Such an attack will never have me as an ally.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 01:16 PM

Tunesmith, I would suggest that you look back through the old threads, easily accessed by setting the filter date, and read through some monumental discussions on religion, etc. you may learn something esp. about Mudcat.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 01:13 PM

Reading it the way you explain now it was meant, Don, I have no disagreement.
Though I admit it seems curious to me that you did write 'McGrath is right' when all he did post was one lexicon definition for 'myth'. I too agree with McGrath's 23 Jun 03 - 02:37 PM post. Who couldn't?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 01:10 PM

Amos!Amos!Amos! Religion is not just another topic. Religion runs the lives of millions of people's . It has also ruined millions of people's lives. This is not a small subject! The Bible, and the insistance that it is a true word-for-word account, has led to the death of countless thousands. It has been waved high in the air as clivisations have been swept away. It has brought untold misery to millions across the centuries. It has filled children's minds with terrifying fears. No, this is not a small subject. A TV program, at prime-time, where all aspects of this debate were discussed and laid bare, would be watched by countless millions world-wide. And it wouldn't matter who might win or lose the argument, the damage to Christianity would enormous. The West couldn't afford to have its religion so exposed. That is why such a debate will be left to small groups of people - like on these pages.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 12:50 PM

No, Wolfgang, I wasn't paraphrasing McGrath, I was agreeing with him. Then I added my own thoughts. I, too, have read a lot of Joseph Campbell, and what I added was derived from those readings.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: The O'Meara
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 12:17 PM

I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell, who is considered by many to be a real authority on mythology - including Christianity. It was his opinion that mythology provides people with a guide to how the world works and a blueprint for living their lives. He also suggested we should stop quibbling over small details and pay attention to the message in the myth, particularly those myths that are repeated over and over in many different cultures and times. If Dionysus, Mithra and Jesus all share the same characteristics, what are those myths telling us?
    When he was asked what a culture would be like that had no such mythological guidelines, he said "Just pick up one of the major newspapers."
    As an example of how religious stories can become skewed, soon after WWII the U.S was in the process of rebuilding Japan's economy by encouraging manufacturing. One of the products produced by the Japanese was a Christmas ornament consisting of a lovely cross upon which was hung a white bearded fat man in a red suit. They never caught on, but they are quite valuable now among collectors.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 11:32 AM

"The highest level" -- what are you talking about, exactly? And if your concept of a free society is one in which public media must bend to include every topic porposed by every member of the society, I am afraid you're being unrealistic. You think television should broadcast debates on all subjects from colors of underwear to the sexual practices of axolotls? If not, what are the optimum protocols for a "free society"?

A

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 10:43 AM

I am puzzled about a number of points that have been raised. I'm British and so my perspective of how the story of Jesus is viewed in the States in somewhat limited; however, I'm pretty sure there are millions of Americans who believe every word of the Gospels and would be up in arms - literally many of them, if anyone tried to each their children anything different.
    I'm, also, hugely concerned with the notion of " Jesus as an idea ". By that I mean that, even if Jesus did not exist physically, the ideas embraced in his teaching ( as presented in the Bible ) are such a force for good that they now have a life of their own and so have, in a concrete way, created their own reality.
    Finally, the things discussed in these pages will never be debated on primetime tv. Such a debate has already been vetoed at the highest level. So much for a free society.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 04:37 AM

to read that book objectively and not start to question things (Tunesmith)

Tunesmith, I am unable to do both things at the same time. If I am reading a book objectively (that is in another state of mind than the one when I'm reading, say, a novel) then I start to question things.

By the way, McGrath is right. Myth is metaphor. It illustrates a point. Not factual. But true. (Don Firth)

No, Don, McGrath has been too careful to state that. He has just cited one of many meanings of 'myth'.
Another definition for instance is: "An ill-founded belief held uncritically by an interested group."

I'm not completely sure what Timothy Freke means when using the word 'myth', but he most certainly doesn't use the word in McGrath's definition.

The definition that may unite most of us goes like that: "A person or thing having only an unveryfiable existence"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 01:35 AM

Your attention please. Eric Hoffer, please pick up a white courtesy phone. Will Mr. Eric Hoffer please pick up a white courtesy phone. Thank you.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 12:41 AM

I would say they are the heart of Mudcat.

And I would agree, and I would say that the treatment of these people (and the relationships that are woven among us) as mere text, as Tunesmith seems to me to do, is to miss the heart and to wrestle only with the surface.

It isn't the TEXT-- it's the PEOPLE (especially in their music) that one must engage if one wishes to engage what is real, what is valuable-- what is true-- about anything Mudcat.

~Susan

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: TIA
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 12:11 AM

Tunesmith - Perhaps I have an inkling of what you're saying. Many religious persons believe things about their religion and it's icons that they wouldn't believe in other facets of their lives (e.g., if one of the girls came in the door and said "Dad, I just walked across the pond", I'd be inclined to think it was in her imagination). There are many claims in the bible and other holy texts that actually are testable in a scientific fashion (and might not fare so well). BUT, given this, do you believe that there is no place in the world or peoples' minds for faith, or that faith is delusional or destructive? In my opinion - absolutely, it can be destructive in the wrong hands (or minds), but I have also seen it used for tremendous good. Seems to me it's more about what you do with your beliefs about the world and the meaning of it all than it is about the details and falsifiability of those beliefs.

For the record, I have tremendous faith that before I die, we will find proof of life elsewhere in the universe.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:59 PM

I have a wonderful idea -- whether or not we are religious, why don't we act like secular humanists. Kurt Vonnegut's definition: "a secular humanist is one who tries to live a good moral life, without fear of punishment or expectation of reward at death."

Easy, isn't it?

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:50 PM

You can neither touch nor be touched by the heart of Mudcat in mere text.

I'd hate to think that the "mere text" of any Mudcatters who have shared their heart, emotions, lyrics, songs and stories with us fell short of the heart of Mudcat. I would say they are the heart of Mudcat.

kat

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 08:41 PM

Amos, tiz-o, tiz-o. Think about it-- I don't recall we ever had a tangle, a wrangle, or a pole-flingaround over, in, or around a song. Shows how smart we wuz. Ooops!

~S~

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 06:38 PM

As Sue suggests, if you're a tunesmith, give us a tune.

Just because something is a myth doesn't rule out it being a fact. But the truth of a myth need not be dependent on it being a fact, still less a proven fact.

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 06:07 PM

I'd say that pretty well covers it, Tunesmith, save for for C and E. Not everybody out there knows that much of what is attributed to Jesus came from previous myths, but a lot of people do. And I don't assume that you are not well-read on the subject. But I do wonder if you have understood what you have read. As to F. and G., nothing to add other than to ask, what's the problem?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 06:03 PM

Oh, Suzy, say it ain't so!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 05:21 PM

Tunesmith, I like your name. How about a tune to say what you mean, if we don't understand? Isn't music the lingua franca among musicians? Doesn't music trump text every time? You can neither touch nor be touched by the heart of Mudcat in mere text.

~S~

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 05:01 PM

I'm not sure where all these various postings leave us. But I'll try to sum it up - as I see it.
A. The Jesus of the Bible is probably a myth.
B. That which is stated in "A" doesn't really matter because the Jesus
   story is a jolly good one and contains lots of fundamental truths -
   and puts a smile on peoples faces.
C. Everybody out there knows a lot about the various religions
   that were plagerised in the creation of the Jesus myth.
D. " Tunesmith" gets too uptight about things.
E. People assume that "Tunesmith" isn't well-read on above matters.
F.
G.
Please fill in own "F" and "G"

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:49 PM

Make that some Christians, Tunesmith, and you'd be correct. Make it all Christians and you would not be correct. I have sought enlightenment through science, knowledge, nature, schooling, religions (all of them), meditation, relationships, work, play, and every other possible method I could think of, so I am not particularly afraid of entering doors...nor do I restrict my attentions only to doors that you can break your nose on if you forget to open them. There are some nonmaterial doors out there too, and you will not be able to find any empirical evidence either for or against them.

You are mistaken in assuming that all people who don't see it your way are necessarily wrong, stupid or deluded in some way.

Why not just live and let live? I bet you believe in some stuff that I would consider a religion based upon mythology too. If you were a Republican or a Democrat, for example... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:39 PM

Geez wodda crock.

Tunesmith, breathe deep. No need to act adversarial among friends.

A

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:28 PM

Hmm. Cross-posted. Lotsa good stuff there by Little Hawk. Well said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:24 PM

You hit the nail on the head, LH...literal-minded

Subject: RE: What price the truth!!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 04:23 PM

Such wriggling!!! Will all those people who keep quoting things at me please start using their brains!! It's like this ; in life we encounter many doors; doors can lead to knowledge, understanding and enlightenment but when Christians approach the door marked " Religion", they don't try to enter but blindly read the information posted on that particular door and walk away contented - and probably with a smile on their faces.