Birmingham play closed by mob

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:28 PM

The Jewish fundamentalist extremists versus the moderate Jews, Martin. Some moderate Jews are calling these extremists "Jewish Ayatollas". One example of that would be the extremist who assasinated Rabin. There are plenty of other examples in the Israeli press on a fairly regular basis. The more moderate Jews in Israel are no more happy with the more extremist Jews than moderate Christians, Muslims, and Sikh's are with the more extremist elements in their own cultures.

Go suck a lemon, John 'Giok' MacKenzie.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:27 PM

For goodness sake don't wind her up!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:08 PM

What violent and extreme culture clashes in Judaim Carol C?

None of the Jewish press I subscribe to (which is quite a bit) mentions any violent or extreme culture clashes. Orthodox and Reform don't always see eye to eye on some issues, but we do consider ourselves one family of God.

You win this month's complete generalizing award.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 02:55 PM

In fact, I would go further and say that the issue is not at all about different cultures clashing, but is about what I have been talking about for a while now... clashes between different factions of each of several groups. Fundamentalists, vs. progressives are clashing within many different cultures (Christianity, Islam, Judaism and, apparently, also Sikhism), and the clashes seem to be getting more and more violent and extreme. But it is more about clashes within cultures than clashes between cultures.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 02:40 PM

The Shambles, my point was not in any way about the Sikh culture. It was only that this situation can't be used to bolster the "clash of civilization" red herring that many people are using these days as a way of trying to oversimplify what are really very complicated issues, as well as a way of trying to scapegoat people who are different from them.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 11:47 AM

In any conflict situation a bias in favour of one side has to mean a bias against the other side. (McGrath)
Just because one side is in the wrong doesn't mean the other side is in the right (McGrath)

Somehow it must make sense to you to hold both of these positions, but it doesn't to me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 10:15 AM

But the dwarves are the Good Guys in Snow White. Now if you were protesting on behalf of witches or step-mothers you might have a point...

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 10:11 AM

Why don't we all dump all pretense at trying to get along, and just go ahead and openly disrespect and piss everyone else off? Might decrease the excess population. Having concern for others is a drag anyway.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 10:09 AM

PS, I'm not a dwarve but i think someone should stick up for midget folk, I'm going to finish my dinner, then go and smash the theatre up.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 10:06 AM

I might be wrong, but I thought that the football clubs paid for the officers inside the ground, and the ones in the surrounding streets/town centre, railway station etc were paid for out of the general police budget by the local Police Authority, funded by Council Taxes and Non Domestic Rates.

Anyway=I just heard that my local theatre is staging Snow White and the 7 Dwarves, I reckon this is offensive to dwarves, so I'm going to go there, and smash the place up.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 10:06 AM

"you have dramatically and obviously changed sides completely in this argument over the last 48 hours, while pretending you have always said the same thing." I disagree, greg. I am inclined to think that there is fault on both sides, and have been all along.

It seems likely to me that the people producing the play acted in a way that they anticipated would stir up controversy, in the expectation that this would attract protest and publicity. That doesn't in any way justify the threats and violence by protestors.

Just because one side is in the wrong doesn't mean the other side is in the right. That is true of an enormous proportion of conflicts.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:36 AM

I believe that football clubs are charged/billed [sic] by the police Surge0n, but you're right about the rest.
Giok

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 08:16 AM

Qoute="they decided to end the plaay, as they could no longer gaurantee the safety of the audience"

Suerly it is the polices job to keep law and order and protect the public from rioting mobs? not theatre box office ticket stall staff.

The police spend thousands on crowd control at football matches, Notting Hill Carnival, and demonstrations by Hunt supporters, and anti hunt people.

So why should it be left to theatre staff to sort out riots at a theatre?

This sort of incident is waht riot police are trained for, and experineced at, [Miners Strike, Poll Tax riots etc].
Why werent they deployed?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 06:11 AM

below is the answer from the Culture Secs office to an E mail I sent.
My point was that the Culture Sec should have been backing the Theatre over the freedom of speech issue and opposing the rule of the mob. However, the reply, as you can see, dodges the mob issue completely and only talks about the play's subject matter, an Issue I never metioned. No backbone whatsoever! But what did I expect!


"Thank you for your email of 20th December about the Birmingham Rep's
production of "Behzti".

We are of course aware that there are strong feelings about the performance
but the theatre's artistic programme is a matter for the theatre and
Ministers cannot intervene in individual decisions. I understand that the
theatre took the decision to end the play's run because they could no longer
guarantee the safety of their audiences.   

Artists from all disciplines often confront difficult issues through their
work, and theatre has always thrived on innovation, experiment and
re-invention in its efforts to stretch the mind and challenge artistic
sensibilities. This can, at times, lead to controversy and criticism, but
it is not the role of Government to act as censors, nor to second guess the
decisions of individual theatres."

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 05:54 AM

Not really, since the person who wrote the play, and the people who are protesting against the play all come from the Sikh culture.

The culture issue is a big red herring, so is the idea that the issue is complicated and all the other flimsy attempts to disguise the issue at stake here. The simple and basic right of freedom of expression is just that - simple.

It would not have mattered what the play was trying to say or what those who were trying to prevent it were trying to say. The right of freedom of expression - guaranteed by legislation to all those who live in the UK - means that both sides have the right to say exactly what they wish to - but neither side has the right to prevent, limit or inhibit the other's right to say it. Nor should those that make this attempt have excuses made for them.

There are many other tactics that are used by those who would try to justify and limit this freedom and they are all baloney. I suggest that Kevin's problem is that he is worried that a clear and simple outright defence of freedom of expression in this matter, may make it difficult to continue to support its limitation by others elswhere.

You can dress-up the quibbles and try to make them more presentable. By questioning the language used or limit where or when it can appear (in order to protect children, old folk or the cat) but accepting the freedom that you may have, to say and do as you wish - is also open to everyone else - is scary concept. It is obviously far too scary for some of us...................

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 04 - 04:54 AM

I always liked to monster raving looney parties policy on defence. They were going to paint all de fences white so no-one could sit on them...

:D

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM

McGrath: you have dramatically and obviously changed sides completely in this argument over the last 48 hours, while pretending you have always said the same thing. Which is your line exactly, so as we can clearly decide which we agree with? Is it the playwrights naughty fault, for not making the reasonable changes you think she should have? or the nasty drunken would-be theatre demolishers and brick throwers who removed her right of free speech? The pain caused to one's fundamental principles by sitting on the fence are well-documented. You seem to be avoiding those troubles by sitting on both sides simultaneously.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 06:16 PM

a miasma of thoughts attempting to say all things to all people.

What my the intention was was trying to put this into a context, rather than coming out with some kind of verdict. It seems to me it's all a bit more complicated than it's being presented; some of the actual facts as to what happened and what didn't happen aren't even clear, and we're seeing it through a media lense that always tends to distort and oversimplify everything. (As anyone who has ever been involved in a press kerfuffle can confirm; and as everyone who has ever worked in the mass media surely knows to be the case.)

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 05:44 PM

It's just a an inevitable clash of cultures.

Not really, since the person who wrote the play, and the people who are protesting against the play all come from the Sikh culture.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 04:51 PM

It's just a an inevitable clash of cultures.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 04:18 PM

As I pretty clearly said, I wholly disagree with rioting against the play, or disruption of performances or threats to the people involved. That would be clear enough if it wasn't swamped in a miasma of thoughts attempting to say all things to all people. For instance you imply that in this case there was an onus on the playwright to head off the mob violence. This is exactly like saying a victim of rape brought it on herself by dressing provocatively.

But a belief in free speech includes a right to peaceful protest by people who felt it [the play] insulted them, for example leafletting playgoers. Who's said otherwise? Not me. Not anyone in this thread. Not the theatre management. Not the protesters. (They did protest peacefully and they did leaflet the audiences. It just wasn't enough for them.)

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM

As weelittledrummer said "The work we do does not exist in a vacuum and and it gains at least some of its validity from the audience." If the effect of the production has been to ensure that it won't be seen by Sikhs, that is a loss which I am sure would not have been in the author's mind. You can't challenge people to look critically at themselves if you have driven them away.

You are in grave danger of falling off of the fence.

Again you seem to be blaming the production for the fact that the play has been prevented (by a mob). It is hardly the author or production that have driven this audience away. Unless it is because they did not agree with the protesters requests or the alternative (gun to the head threat) - if these requests were not met.

The right to protest about a view, that a piece of drama may express and to leaflet the audience, is one option - but not the only one. As you have said this protest (and its lawless result) is an option that will bring attention to something that many folk would never have been aware of.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:58 PM

Leadfingers, I thought all of the sexual activity took place in an ORIFICE. And the whole thrust of it lasted only about 30 seconds.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:52 PM

And I got a 100 without even realising it !

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:52 PM

The 'Sexual' activity in the play takes place in an OFFICE - not in the actual temple ! And the whole thrust is about mistreatment of Women !!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

I don't think there ever really is a "final version" of any play or song. Every production of Shakespeare is liable to rewrite it, and it's pretty clear that Shakespeare did that too.

As I pretty clearly said, I wholly disagree with rioting against the play, or disruption of performances or threats to the people involved. But a belief in free speech includes a right to peaceful protest by people who felt it insulted them, for example leafletting playgoers.

As weelittledrummer said "The work we do does not exist in a vacuum and and it gains at least some of its validity from the audience." If the effect of the production has been to ensure that it won't be seen by Sikhs, that is a loss which I am sure would not have been in the author's mind. You can't challenge people to look critically at themselves if you have driven them away.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:03 PM

And that's what's cool about you Blissfully.

Guest is way too worried about what he/she says. Political correctness is truly a lifestyle.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 01:03 PM

As artists do we have to censor ourselves?

Yes but by the time you arrive at the final version - you have done enough of this. If you don't like the reaction to it at this point - you may choose to take action to limit the effect and any possible offence (like the donkey/pope song). Or you may not.

But surely any positive statement risks causing offence to somebody - does this mean that we should not ever make any positive statements?

This is probably the test of music. For music that does not risk being thought unpleasant sounding is probably not going to inspire anyone either.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:44 PM

"I have a friend who makes crude remarks that would offend ANY woman,"

Bet you they wouldn't offend me. I'd just out-crude him.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:41 PM

If you are walking around on egg shells for fear of offending someone, maybe you are not aware of other people's sensitivities. I'm reminded of the bull in a china shop.
I have a friend who makes crude remarks that would offend ANY woman, but when they get upset, he says, they should develop a thicker skin. No way does HE need improvement.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:27 PM

And a nice donkey?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:19 PM

Its all very interesting, and raises a worthwhile debating issue - well several issues really.

As a pre-amble I must say that I don't buy the one about us being the most secular nation in the world.

The men who founded the welfare state and the NHS had internalised the Sermon on the Mount much more deeply than some tripehound earnestly seeking to save his soul with a lot of prayers, and chanting and mumbo jumbo.

As artists do we have to censor ourselves?

The work we do does not exist in a vacuum and and it gains at least some of its validity from the audience. In his book My Guru by Christopher Isherweood - he describes taking his Guru to a performance of George Bernard Shaw - a play where GBS was poking fun at the church, in his imitable way. Isherwood asked his Guru, would you have laughed if those jokes had been about yourself and Krishna?

If the Rushdie case did not make it clear enough. It is apparent that some religious people simply do not have that spanner in their toolkit. No sense of humour, irony, literary understanding that separates the words said by the character in the book from the thoughts of the artist writing the book.

A while back I wrote a song called The Day Delaney's Donkey had sex with the Pope. I thought I'd done a decent job writing it. the only time I performed it though - a friend in the audience begged me never to sing it again. It had obviously caused deep offence, and I trusted his instincts. Some people came up afterwards ans said that they never missed a mass in their lives, but they loved it but I never have performed again, and doubt I ever shall. and when a mainstream radio station in Ireland started playing it - I asked them to stop.

I do admire people like Woody Guthrie who would sing a song fearlessly to a gang of segregationists.

I think maybe the difference is that Woody knew he was taunting complete assholes. Rushdie, this Sikh lady and myself - I suspect we were affronting some rather nice people........

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 11:03 AM

Interestingly enough, there is a piece in the Guardian today about an actual rape in a place of worship(not a Sikh temple, I should make clear).

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 10:49 AM

I totally agree Shambles.
I've written 2 plays, a drama set in a cafe, and a comedy set in a hospital, if any religous groups don't like them, they can get lost.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 10:43 AM

If Shambles, or anyone else, wants to suggest ways in which any song of mine could be improved they are welcome. If I agree, I'd change it. And even if I disagreed, they'd still be perfectly welcome to sing it their way if they wished.

A kind of answer to a simple question that Mr Blair's Government would no doubt approve of, for in this case we are not talking of improvements or asking the originator to come up with a solution - the protestors are telling the author what would be acceptable to them and not accepting the right of the playwright to state exactly what they wish to.

Would it not be equally reasonable and prudent - to leave the play as written and for those who had seen the play and did not share that view to produce something that did express their position?

Perhaps you would suggest that everyone should have their own website where they could tinker with and have their own preferred, safe and sanitised versions of all the existing great works of art? Art must be a personal statement. It is there to be appreciated or shot-at, but it cannot be first subject to committee approval or latterly to mob rule.

The only reason to ask a playwright to change the final version of their work - is in the expectation of their possibly being such a change in response. In my view, it is not acceptable to even make such a request or to have such an expectation - no matter how reasonable or prudent you may think the request to be (this time). Next time the mob is stirred-up you may not think the demands to be reasonable or prudent.

What is the message being given by this action to other groups, who may be making in the future - what you may feel, to be less reasonable and prudent demands? It really does not matter whether you or I think the demanded changes are reasonable or prudent - do you not accept that this is a matter entirely for the author?

You seem to be suggesting that the author was in some way responsible for the mob being allowed to break things and threaten violence - by not agreeing to what you consider were reasonable or prudent demands.
All this quibbling by you is not acceptable - we do have the right of freedom of expression guaranteed to us under legislation - the important question is why is mob rule being allowed to prevent it?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 10:30 AM

ROFL jOhn!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 10:27 AM

Perhaps anyone writing plays from now on, should take a copy of it to their local religous leaders to see if it meets with their approval before staging it?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 10:21 AM

McGrath, I've just been talking to a (non-practising) Sikh acquaintance in London. He reckoned a gurdwara was probably the most likely setting for a mother to approach a third party in seeking "a suitable boy" for her daughter. Apparently a gurdwara is a community centre anyway, in that it will typically be a drop-in centre, open to all, where rough sleepers for instance might get a square meal, have a chat or just get warmed up. To argue that rape and murder could never happen in such a place would be ridiculous.

So even if you can't tune into the setting's relevance to concepts like trust and authority, the argument would seem to be against you even on the level of simple practicalities. In terms of the former, however, it should be noted that many young Sikhs have rallied to the playwright's support. Clearly the play has struck a chord with some in the Sikh community.

I hesitate to lure you down from the fence to which you've so resolutely nailed your colours, McG, but I wonder whose fault you think it is that Gurpreet Kaur Bhatti is now in hiding: hers, or the mob's? And to go back to what The Shambles said, is there really nothing you've written yourself that you'd hold out for, even in the face of threatened violence?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 10:02 AM

Peter K, yeah, but they were there first. I don't care if the Sihks are from the moon. Matter of fact, they can all go to the moon. You guys can now enjoy the diversity they bring to you.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 09:08 AM

If Shambles, or anyone else, wants to suggest ways in which any song of mine could be improved they are welcome. If I agree, I'd change it. And even if I disagreed, they'd still be perfectly welcome to sing it their way if they wished.

Greg, I think you misunderstand my position. I think that asking a playwright - or a songwriter - to change a play or a song, for example because it seems insulting to people who do not deserve to be insulted, is a perfectly reasonable think to ask, and I think that it is right for a playwright or a songwriter to consider such a request seriously, which doesn't mean an obligation to comply with it. But nor is there any duty to refuse to comply, if there are no good reasons to do so, which of course there may be.

I also think the right to protest peacefully can apply in such cases. However I do not think there is a right to riot or to threaten people.

Om this particular case I can't see how switching the action to "a community centre" rather than "a Sikh Temple" would in fact have significantly weakened it. Here is an extract from the play, anyway, from The Independent.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 08:14 AM

Next thing you know we'll be letting them ride motor bikes without a crash helmet, and exempting them from the law on carrying bladed weapons, so that they can carry a Kirpan at all times as their religion requires.
Then of course our government wouldn't do that would they? I mean we all live in the same country and obey the same laws don't we?
Giok

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 08:06 AM

The Guardian exerpt for which Wolfgang gave a link is fairly short and doesn't really show why the setting of a gurdwara was central to the drama. The much longer extract in The Independent was much more useful in that respect and I doubt if McGrath would have blandly fallen in with moving the action to a community centre if he had read it. But the setting does not mean the play is about religion. It is about honour and dishonour, abuse of authority, the complexity of family bonds and the status of women.

All of which is irrelevant to arguments about free speech. But it does show that the playwright, in exercising her right to uncensored artistic expression, was not doing so out of sheer wilfulness. (According to her friends, by the way, she is still in hiding, on police advice. Some democracy.)

The whole furore has been an unmitigated disaster for the Sikh community in the UK and will set back by many years the progress towards wider understanding of their heritage and traditions. But we should keep in mind that very many Sikhs are ashamed and disgusted by what the Birmingham mob has done in their name.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 05:12 AM

I'm getting tired of spending my life walking on eggshells for fear of offending someone or other. If people want to live somewhere their religious beliefs and superstitions will be treated as sacrosanct they know what they can do.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 02:01 AM

Unlike people in Birmingham - your mother did have the choice to see it or not - she also had the choice of whether to fall asleep or not. That is probably the right approach and also the best criticism....

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Dec 04 - 12:34 AM

My mother went to see "The Last Temptation of Christ" picking he way through a crowd of pickets who were chanting, "Don't see this blasphemous movie". The film was picketed all over the country, but no one was violent.
Mother caught the first 20 minutes of the movie, before she fell asleep. She didn't wake up until the last credits. So, she didn't really see the blasphemous movie.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM

As I understand it the position of the Sikh community leaders was to ask for the play to be amended, so that the action took place in a community centre rather than a Sikh Temple, and that seems a reasonable and prudent suggestion.

If I don't like a song that someone has written - I don't have to hear it, I don't have to sing it and I can always write one with my views on the subject. If someone does not like my song - they are equally welcome to write their own.

Kevin the next time you produce one of your songs here as a finished piece of work, (without asking for folk to comment on it) - would it be OK to reasonable and prudently suggest that you amended it to my wishes? And if I asked and you refused - would it be OK for me to demand its removal?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 07:17 PM

McGrath of Harlow's contribution was a little sad, from a man who used to support liberal values. He thinks the playwright should adjust the setting of the play to appease some elders or some mob or something. That's why O'Casey left Ireland: he felt, as a playwright, that he would kind of like to write his plays himself, and not have them written for him by priests. Joyce likewise.
    I can think of all sorts of ways I would like playwrights to rewrite their plays(and especially how Andrew Lloyd Webber should rewrite his musicals, basically he should give up): but by and large I'll go along with the kind of society which a lot have people have fought hard over centuries to achieve in Britain: when playwrights write plays and priests can organise church services.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 07:00 PM

Martin, I doubt if the Sikhs would be unwise enough to stir up a fuss in Iran. Maybe you're getting your enemies confused? Anyway the Catholic church, some other Christian churches and the main political parties in Birmingham bave all sbown themselves to be just as intolerant as the Sikh protesters.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 06:53 PM

As a Dutch politician, now living under death threats because of his speeches after a Dutch filmaker was shot by Muslim extremists said;
"We have been too tolerant of the intolerant"
This surely is the new war. The intolerant are in all our communities, from the fundamentalists of America to the Sikhs of Birmingham. Our dilemma is how do we defend our tolerance? By becoming intolerant ourselves? If we don't they win. If we do we lose what we hold most dear. It's a rock and a hard place. But if we don't fight what I saw today called "the counter enlightenment", then we go back to ignorance.
I think it's time to be counted though the cost may be great.But are we brave enough as our fathers were when faced with fascism?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:39 PM

"OK, British culture equals Monty Python."

Unfortunately not. If it did, it would be worth defending.