BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 16 May 12 - 09:29 AM

I agree, Bobert. GfS and the rest of the right-wing don't seem to be able to continue any conversation past the bumper-sticker slogan stage. But there's more to the problem than that, if I may return for a moment to the asshole theory. If GfS wasn't a complete asshole all the time, these discussions wouldn't devolve the way they do. I would love to have a reasoned discussion on these topics, but it's pretty hard when GfS invades every thread and hurls imprecations at everyone he disagrees with. If the whole problem was that he doesn't have any answers he would just shut up. The real problem is that he doesn't have any answers and he's an asshole in how he talks to others. Little Hawk says we are all attacking each other, but he's wrong. GfS is attacking everyone else and starting fights. Little Hawk, of course, is one of the many who think our political stalemates are the result of both parties bickering. While not defending the many assholes amongst the Democrats, it is, by a vast margin, the Republicans who poison political dialogue in this country.

Quite like the Tea Party folks in that regard. And yes, GfS is a right-winger, at least with the social issues. Any analysis of his posts shows that. More, if you look at the other members who always agree with him and with who he always agrees, it becomes pretty obvious which pack he runs with. But even if he was a total progressive liberal, his tactics make him one with the Tea Party -- attack, no compromise, call names, attack, tell lies about others, attack, deny civil rights to minorities, attack, tell everyone else they are stupid, attack, lie, attack. If he was a simple troll, he might get ignored. But he's just enough of a real person to get taken seriously sometimes. But then he acts like an asshole again.

Get rid of the asshole and we will have better discussions. Here and as a nation as whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:48 AM

Oh, sorry, Sawz... Didn't mean to slight you...

We have thrown facts after facts after facts out here on this thread... The *FACT* that you and GfinS don't ***do facts*** is ya'll's problem, not TIA, Don, Stilly, et al or my problem...

GfinS promised to present an alternative to the Affordable Care Act... Had that actually occurred we would be having an interesting policy discussion but the right has no ideas... It is fascinated with "No"... Bring on your policy positions that deal with ***real*** policies and we can have discussions...

Sandbagging ain't a position...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:19 AM

Yo, GfinS...

Where's the beef??? Ahhhhh, the "PLAN" that you promised???

BTW, I did find your lengthy post entertaining but...

... you are dodging the issue here... Bet you are one heck of a dancer...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:10 AM

Sheeeeit!

All I do is come in here and post a news article and I am personally assaulted!

Ad Hominem 2.0:

"Personally, I think the OP was a conflation of hyperinflated vitriol concocted with equal parts spiteful generalization and inaccurate assertion."

Why not assail the facts presented with your own facts that disprove those facts you disagree with?

I think the reason might be that you have no facts to present so you attack the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 12 - 02:54 AM

AHH!..I finally got to respond to some rather amateurish nonsense from so whipped up, frustrated ideologues, who are watching their 'messiah' slip in the polls!

Little Hawk(not a parrot): "Okay, that's it. This has gone far enough. You're all making yourselves sick...."

Well, Obamacare won't be able to help them get well!..Some messiahs can heal the sick, and make the infirmed, whole again...Obama, the illusionary messiah, makes the lame, blind!
Congrats!

PDQ: ""...With the passage of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies were allowed to consolidate. The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton."

Yes, BTW, you forgot the Tom Delay(presently in jail), was the 'hammer' to get this to Clinton, on behalf of his banking buddies. Clinton was such a great Democrat, working on the behalf of the beliefs of a lot of VERY LIBERAL(?) folks like a lot of you, could have vetoed it......ever wonder why he didn't??? (HINT: He was working for the banking buddies, too!)..Fooled ya'...didn't he??!!??
He was either VERY stupid, or very clever at deceiving the intentions of those who voted for the scumbag!...Bobert should re-think his incense burning to the Democratic party, just based on that one, alone! Stupid dick-wad(Clinton), set the groundwork to completely fuck up the economy, just for his banking pals....well, didn't he?

Don Firth: "Busy day. Just checking in to see if there has been any progress.
Nope."

That's 'progressives' for ya' 'two steps forward three steps back!'
(P.S. I'll get to it when I get to it....There REALLY IS life away from the computer!!....and I've been buried in busy..and then there is reading all the stuff, that nobody WANTS to read.....(or can't)!

Bobert: "But GfinS says again that a plan is forth-coming... Of course we've heard that before and apt to hear it again..."

'If you have reached this recording in error, try calling back a little later'

Don Firth: "Right on, Little Hawk!"

Of course!

Guest,999: "'Anyway, we no longer have a choice, it's change or perish.....and it wont be the sort of "democratic" change to which the "liberals" pay lip service.'

Hi, Ake. Tell you what, old friend, when you hit the nail on the head you hit it a good one. Trust all is well."

Kudos to both of you!

Bill D: "Take what Canada & the UK do, give the basics to Bernie Sanders, Barney Frank, Elizabeth Warren. Let them choose a committee to work out details relevant to the USA such as...."

BARNEY FRANK?????????!!!!????.....Now I know you're nuts!....He just did wonders with Fannie and Freddie....i wonder if he'll get prosecuted for corruption charges....at least he ain't runnin' again..ever wonder why? He made his crooked millions(or billions) he'll be frolicking off in 'See ya', suckers, world!'

From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:32 AM (too long to post again)....but right on!....Bobert could never understand that post..way too 'dialed in' and over his head! Bobert wants a cracker...to some, he is a cracker!

Don Firth: "I've met a few politicians who would not only sell you their grandmother, but who will deliver. But I also know--personally--a number of politicians who are honest and genuinely concerned for the citizens and the state of the country. They have integrity, and not only have they not been bought, they are not for sale!"

You have actually met Obama????...Integrity????....He's got more broken promises, and told more lies than just about anybody in recent history!!!!!.......but there are those who just keep stroking themselves with excuses, of how he's still their messiah....but, with the power of the faithful, he is actually able to make the lame, blind again!!

Don Firth: "Little Hawk, another lecture from you that indicates that you flunked your Remedial Polical Science class."

You misspelled 'political'...wonders never cease!....(Clue: stick to music!)

Bobert: "Here's the deal, LH...
GfinS has been all over Obama for anything and everything Obama has done, tried to do, not done or has not tried to do..."

Not so, when Amos and I went round and around, about him during the elections(I called him 'Oblabbo' at the time, because I clocked him as a liar, talking out his ass....I gave him a year, before I ever mentioned him again, on here, giving Amos AND Obama the benefit of the doubt, and to give him a chance to see if I was wrong...but like in music 'speed is a bi-product of accuracy'....I was right about him, and accurate...and time has validated my earlier position. I think I was more 'shovel ready' than he was!!!!

Akenaton: "Oh fuck!... why don't some of the "brilliant minds" on here learn to interpret
Little Hawk is saying we are doing the wrong thing....for fuck sake!
and he is perfectly correct, playing the political game is actually regressive.
If we really want to change this shit heap, it can only be done by conducting ourselves as people, not political pawns.
It is not us against the conservatives, without the conservatives and their many good ideals we will change nothing.
It is "US"(left and right and centre)against the system which prints the labels."

Right the fuck on!!!!! It's all theater, while the REAL bullshit is going on behind the scenes!! The arguments are just 'diversion and uproar' lest you hold these bastards accountable!

Tia: "...and while I am here and on this topic...don't forget that before we were promised a detailed analysis and recommendations of US health care, we were promised (two years ago?) some "eye-opening revelations" from "The Counselor" regarding causes of homosexuality."

I posted it long ago...(there is even more)..you must have missed it..go look it up!
..................................................................
......Now 'Silly Drivel Rage' posted a comment, on here, that I couldn't get to, because I was way too busy..but he called my music 'pretentious'...and that I was a 'pretentious musician'....well that post has been taken down....but if you really feel that way, I'll wager you...you bring $10,000, (not food stamps, or hippie beads), meet me here, we can arrange it, and you come down to the basement, I'll play for you, and two witnesses picked at randon...and if is ANYTHING but 'LIVE' and nobody's mind is blown....you win...if not, pay up....and put your money where your mouth is!....and BTW, I'll treat you to dinner at the best restaurant in town, afterwards!


P.S. Now some might take this wrong..and some will 'get it'...but, it is an honor to be reviled and ridiculed by some of you!......Jeez!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 May 12 - 11:24 PM

...and while I am here and on this topic...don't forget that before we were promised a detailed analysis and recommendations of US health care, we were promised (two years ago?) some "eye-opening revelations" from "The Counselor" regarding causes of homosexuality.

Memory of an an elephant is both blessing and curse.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 May 12 - 11:21 PM

"Everyone knew that discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong."

But discrimination based on what naturally and involuntarily arouses you is mandatory in the name of public health.

Got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:15 PM

And not everyone knew that "discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong"...

Still don't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:41 PM

"Everyone knew that discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong. "

But not on grounds of 'lack of religion' or 'being female'

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 05:51 PM

Well Bobert I was rather thinkin' Dr King's way.
The Civil Rights movement could never have succeeded without the support of the conservative majority.
Everyone knew that discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 05:05 PM

I don't buy that either, Ake...

The UK and the USA have one thing in common: they are each wealthy and each has a problem with income disparity...

Here in the US 1/2 of the population lives ar 125% of the poverty threshold OR LESS... With the cost of living if the government were to end its social programs, the US would look like Somalia in 30 days and drop into a Depression that would make the Great Depression of the 20s and 30s look like the good ol' days... At least then people lived on farms and could grow their own food...

That isn't "entitlements"... That's basic survival needs...

As for LH, I'll stick with what I have said... We don't have luxury of allowing the Republicans enough power to destroy our safety nets... That is not an option... And make no bones about it... Given the "stand your ground laws", all the union busting and the disenfranchisement of voters these radical libertarians will do just that...

Maybe that's what you want, Ake... An insurrection... I don't... I'd rather do it Dr. King's way...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:23 PM

You are right Bob...we should strive to make a better world.....but I think LH is of the opinion that we should not divide ourselves on Party political lines, our real battle is against the powers of darkness...the global capitalists, the corporations, the financial institutions and we should not allow ourselves to be diverted by political constructs.
It will be a long road and none of us will see it, but some day we will live in a world of peace and unity,where people are valued for what they contribute to society, not for the amount of money they can amass.

I heard a Chinese guy on radio today, he was asked for his opinion on the contrast between UK workers and Chinese workers.
He said that there was an enormous difference. A Chinese is ashamed to be without a job...his family are ashamed that he has no job...
He feels part of a team at work no matter how menial the task he has to perform. Chinese are encouraged to respect everyone who contributes to society from scientist to road sweeper.

The guy has lived here for a few years and reckons there is a culture of "Entitlement"....to be looked after when the system fucks up...no attachment to the betterment of society...only the urge to do well personally and of course the number who "make it big" is very small.

I suppose after another twenty years of a capitalist economy the Chinese will be just like us, "Rights" for all, a rich elite and a huge lumpen,purposeless underclass. What an aspiration!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:07 PM

Well, Ake wants us all to get together and storm the Winter Palace.

When Lenin was accused of betraying the Revolution, he responded, "What's the sense of having a revolution if you can't betray it?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:32 PM

Hells Bells, Ake... Have another hit of Geritol, man...

No, what LH is saying is that everything sucks and will suck forever so sit on yer hands, play your music, don't worry and be happy...

That is what defeatist do, Ake, ol buddy...

That's what way too many people did back in the 30s in Germany...

Not striving to make a better world is irresponsible... Yer not paying for your carbon footprint if that's all you have to give...

Here in the US we have a very dangerous minority - as Hitler did in the beginning - that is advocating the privatization of everything... They've all but killed the public school system already... I mean, I'm not going to sit on my hands here or in my community... I write more letters to newspapers and congressmen in a week than most people do in a life time... I go to the demonstrations... I make my donations and...

..I post here because I think that if I throw enough FACTS at people then some will one day wake up, just as my Republican father did late in life, and say, "Fuck it... My son is right... These people really are creeps!!!"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:13 PM

Oh fuck!... why dont some of the "brilliant minds" on here learn to interpret

Little Hawk is saying we are doing the wrong thing....for fuck sake!
and he is perfectly correct, playing the political game is actally regressive.

If we really want to change this shit heap, it can only be done by conducting ourselves as people, not political pawns.

It is not us aginst the conservatives, without the conservatives and their many good ideals we will change nothing.
It is "US"(lft and right and centre)against the system which prints the labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:03 PM

One Affordable Care Act coming up:

Take what Canada & the UK do, give the basics to Bernie Sanders, Barney Frank, Elizabeth Warren. Let them choose a committee to work out details relevant to the USA such as:
   Start taking a bit more in deductions (pro-rated according to income!), reduce malpractice insurance costs, prosecute Medicare fraud with a WILL, allow drug imports, get rid of all the Republican attempts at legislating abortion and contraception..... and a few more... YOU add some.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:50 PM

Little Hawk, another lecture from you that indicates that you flunked your Remedial Polical Science class.

"I'm not saying that nothing should be done. I'm not saying that nothing can be done."

So you're saying that one's efforts in the political realm are simply futile? If so, then, why even attempt?

You ARE counseling that people who are concerned with the way the country is being run are wasting their time and energy to even attempt to change it.

You can't have it both ways.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:02 PM

It's important, LH, because, in essence, what is going on here is a microcosm of what is going out out there...

We have a law in place... It's called the Affordable Care Act... It was not only passed by majorities in both houses but also had to climb a steep mountain by getting not 51 Senate votes but 60 Senate votes...

Here's the rub... Many states that are run by Republicans won't even set up the insurance exchanges that the law calls for because they don't like the law...

I mean, either we are the "United States" or we aren't... I have no problems with states not wanting to obey the laws of the United States opting out of the country... If the South wants to leave, fine...

Reality is that the South doesn't want to leave because it gets more back in federal dollars than it pays in... The South just wants to think of federal law as a lunch menu...

They (we) have gotten away with all but desegregating our schools with bogus charter schools so folks have this mentality that anything they don't wnat to do they can just sandbag and sandbag some more and eventually the crybabies wear everyone out...

That is what GfinS has done here...

No, nothing that anyone says here will change what the Supreme Court will do but having these discussions is all part of the "little" things that is part of having an informed electorate that Thomas Jefferson said democracy needs...

I mean, sure, we could all just sit on our hands, play our music and make no effort and let the BS section become just the Chongz & Aches 'n Pains section but there's more to life than imaginary monkeys and bum knees... Or is there???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:10 PM

Don, what I meant is...we would all like to see something done to change what's wrong with society. Agreed?

However, who would it be done by? And how? It looks to me like it would be done by the people who run the government, because they are the ones who enact new legislation and have the power to change what's going on in society.

So we try to persuade them to do what we think would be good to do. We try to persuade them in various ways. By voting. By voicing our opinions publicly. By writing letters. By whatever way we can work it out.

If they respond to us favorably, fine. If they don't...then what?

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. I'm not saying that nothing can be done. What I am saying is that 5 or 6 argumentative, personally critical and judgemental blathermouths on THIS talk forum here who get together to fight about it every day are NOT going to be the people who actually DO something about it! ;-)

Now, do you get what I mean? I'm seeing a lot of hubris and grandstanding here, and it's just people expressing their frustration and getting wound up.

Why should anyone here care what GfS thinks? How important can it be? Why should you care what I think and why should I care what you think...in light of the fact that it's about as important as what Mrs McGillicuddy's poodle thinks? Our petty little opinions are not WORTH fighting over with each other every day of our lives, Don. We could be happier not doing so, and we could get on with doing something more positive than endlessly trying to prove someone else wrong.

But if you think your individual activities in regards to "saving the nation" are hugely significant and will make a big difference...fine with me...get right out there and do your thing. I wish you all the luck in the world. Seriously. And I wish GfS all the luck in the world too. And you too, Bobert. ;-) We could all use some good luck now and then.

You now what the Mudcat political threads are? They're a walk through an emotionally toxic waste dump. And they're a serious emotonal and mental addiction for a few people. Addictions aren't good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 10:25 AM

Tell us how you really feel, John... LOL...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 15 May 12 - 10:00 AM

I don't really care what GfS believes or doesn't. The reason everyone is down on him all the time is because he's a raging asshole. Well, OK, that and the fact that he is so unethical he can't tell the difference between Republican policy and Democrat policy. Oh, wait, that's just another way of saying he's a raging asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 09:08 AM

Here's the deal, LH...

GfinS has been all over Obama for anything and everything Obama has done, tried to do, not done or has not tried to do...

Obama got the A0ffordable Care Act thru Congress and, whereas no one is saying it's perfect, reasonable people see it as a step in the right direction..

So those of us who are part of the "reasonable people" challenged GfinS to offer and alternative and GfinS agreed... That was 2 weeks ago... I mean, if GfinS had a better idea then he would have presented it by now... So, it's safe to assume that GfinS...

a. hates the Affordable Care Act

and

b. has no atlternative...

Put those two together and guess what you have, LH???

Give up???

You have nothing... In other words, just go back to before the Affordable Care Act with 50,000,000 uninsured...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:35 AM

Hi Brucie Baby!!...It must be all these years with the big stone hammer! :0)

Bruce, i've been meaning to PM you just to catch up...will do so in the next few days.....my very best A.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:06 AM

I had high hopes for Obama, but unfortunately he's no FDR. But then, he's had this obstructionist Congress to deal with. The vicious and mean-spirited attacks that have been flung at him right from the start give a clear idea of the nature of the opposition he's been facing.

I DO NOT buy this glib and cynical idea that he's simply been bought. Given a second term, I think he might surprise a lot of people. Especially if there are a few more Democrats in Congress.

I've met a few politicians who would not only sell you their grandmother, but who will deliver. But I also know--personally--a number of politicians who are honest and genuinely concerned for the citizens and the state of the country. They have integrity, and not only have they not been bought, they are not for sale!

I will NOT give up, thank you very much!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:40 AM

Little Hawk, first you say "nobody is saying 'do nothing,'" and then you say "there's nothing we can do."

???????????

What ARE you saying?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:32 AM

So just give up, eh?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:32 AM

When did he say we should do nothing, Bobert? I don't think anyone here is suggesting to "do nothing". The primary thing that leads to the endless arguments between GfS and his loyal opposition here is simply this: he criticizes Obama and the Democrats as well as criticizing the Republicans. He says they're both wrong.

If he concentrated only on criticizing the Republicans and the Right, instead of attacking both the Right and the Left in the USA, you'd love him. ;-) But he doesn't restrict his attacks to only one partisan angle. He attacks both of them. And that's why these disputes keep arising. It troubles you that he attacks Obama and the Democrats...you hardly even notice if he attacks the Right (and he does), because you are so incensed over him attacking the Left.

Well, the thing is, from outside the USA it looks very much like those 2 parties are really serving the same imperial, military, and banking interests...but are tailoring their divisive rhetoric quite differently to appeal to 2 bitterly divided constituencies in the USA (sometimes called "liberals" and "conservatives", among other things).

And yet...they both go to war in foreign lands, they both abrogate your civil rights, they both privatize public institutions, they both bail out banksters, they both lie and grandstand to get your votes...but they deliver superficially different messages about various emotionally-charged (and sometimes very trivial) issues to manipulate different sectors in your public.

Right now, for instance, Obama is maneuvering around the issue of gay marriage. I doubt that it's an accident...or a sudden noble inspiration he got. I think it's a calculated election tactic. Romney is put in an awkward place by that tactic (he wouldn't want to be seen as a homophobe...but he wouldn't want to be seen as a traitor to the fundamentalist Christians either...so he has to tread very carefully in how he responds...his method of responding looks like it will be to barely respond at all). I think Obama's people have gambled that it will work well for them. It is a gamble, because it might backfire at the polls.

Anyway, I think it's a distraction to what they really care about in the high levels of power. They couldn't care less about gay marriage rights one way or the other (in my opinion)...it's a non-issue to most of those guys in truth...but they do care deeply about fighting wars, making money, having power, and controlling oil.

The rest is just a shiny bright ribbon tied around Pandora's Box to get the public all worked up about something that will hopefully translate into votes in November. It's the usual electoral soap opera that happens every 4 years.

And we'd all like to do something to change the way things are. But what? That is the $60 trillion dollar question, and I'm certainly not going to say that I have the answer to it, because I know darned well that I don't. Hell, I have enough trouble changing my own life in any significant way without lapsing into the incredible hubris to think that I would have a prescription all worked out for changing America!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:20 PM

Here are a couple sobering facts:

2/3s of bankruptcies in the US are a result of health care costs...

There over 1,500,000 in the US bankruptcies in 2011...

Now I'm sure that folks understand the concept of the ripple effect and here's how those bankruptcies effected all of US:

*100s of thousands of home fore-closers which has depressed not only the housing market, the value of existing home but the economy in general

*100s of thousands of smaller retailers effected as receivables were written off...

*100s of miilions og kids getting pulled away from their schools and friends...

*100s of millions of domestic violence & divorces...

*100s of millions of families having to move in with relatives and/or friends...

Plus suicides, murders, crime, more police hours, clogged courts, incarcerations, etc., etc....

Tell me again why we should do nothing, GfinSs of the world...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:00 PM

'Anyway, we no longer have a choice, it's change or perish.....and it wont be the sort of "democratic" change to which the "liberals" pay lip service.'

Hi, Ake. Tell you what, old friend, when you hit the nail on the head you hit it a good one. Trust all is well.

B

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:56 PM

I didn't mean as a war leader LH....I meant as an inspiration, that's what we need more than anything else.

Our current leaders, Obama, Romney, Cameron, Milliband are all wedded to a corrupt system, despite what they say none of them want anything resembling "CHANGE".

Anyway, we no longer have a choice, it's change or perish.....and it wont be the sort of "democratic" change to which the "liberals" pay lip service.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:09 PM

Fables of wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:57 PM

Well, one thing is for sure and that is Cuba has universal health care and from what I have heard is purdy good...

Maybe that's why the righties want to keep the embargo going... They don't want too many Americans discovering that it is much more humanistic when it comes to health care then we are...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:23 PM

Right on, Little Hawk!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 12 - 09:53 AM

Yup, I know, Bobert. Just as you say. It's a very sad situation.

We have a neocon prime minister in Canada who I am sure would LOVE to dismantle and privatize our public health insurance system...but he doesn't DARE to, because it would be political suicide for him to even attempt it. People here are used to having a socialized health care system, and it has massive public support, so no Canadian politician dares to dismantle it.

Damn good thing! If it wasn't for that system, a lot of people I know who've had illnesses in the family would be homeless now, penniless, living on the street....or dead...my family included (due to illnesses my parents suffered in their last few years of life).

***

Akenaton - Interesting stuff you post about the situation in the UK. Seems like a general decline in standards of honesty has gone right through your system there. I wonder where the rot started? And when? There is undoubtedly some abuse of our Canadian public health services too by people who are taking advantage...but it's not something I worry about too much. The main point is, if someone here gets cancer, liver failure, kidney failure, serious injury, etc...the care they need is covered by tax-funded health insurance that everyone pays...and that is the only sane way to do it.

To not do so would be kind of like having a fire department that only responds to calls from rich people whe can PAY BIG BUCKS for a visit from firemen...and lets the other people's houses burn to the ground...because they want you to pay them at least $30,000 on the spot just to make a "house call". That's what would happen if the fire department was a "for profit" organization.

And that would be a blatant crime against humanity, deserving of a violent revolution and the overthrow of the criminals by said humanity.

I think the present social/governmental system in the USA is richly deserving of such an overthrow...but I wouldn't recommend it. The "cure" in such a case would probably turn out to be even worse than the original ailment. Violent revolutions have a way of doing that...and they usually end up killing mostly innocent people.

One exception I'd make to that, though, was Castro's revolution. I think Cuba was way better off having that revolution succeed than they would have been having it fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 12 - 09:34 AM

You already know the answer to your own question, LH...

The for-huge-profits health insurance companies like things just the way they are... If you look at the vast sums of $$$ that went to Dick Armey's lobbyist firm and then funneled to FreedomWorks who then funneled the cash to the Tea Party then you understand why American's don't get it...

It's a matter of what Bill Clinton calls "microphone time" and in Amnerica he who has the most $$$ also has has the most "micropone time"...

Now people might think, "So what?"... Unfortunately, the candidate who spends the most still wins 90% of elections... Same with policies... The US has been deluged with anti-Affordable Care Act PR... Some of it comes in TV ads paid for by very patriotic sounding organization and the rest from the Tea Party 24/7 SCREAMING at US...

Here's the deal, LH... Who exactly has the money or clout on the pro- Affordable Care Act to take on the Big Boys??? No one... If Obama gets 20 seconds of face time on the evening news saying exactly what you and dick greenhouse are saying by the end of the night the haters will log in 5-10 minutes...

What America is suffering from is planned & willful ignorance and unless we reconstitute some kind of "fairness" (equal time" doctrine we are going to continue in a downward spiral...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:17 AM

Sorry LH.....I meant to link to your last post by saying that insurance fraud has become part of life in the UK....the additional cost is added to our house and car insurance annually, which means that honest people have to subsidise the fraudsters through their insurance premiums.

As a builder i am approached regularly by people (who can well afford to pay for their repairs),to falsify insurance claims.

I'm afraid our society is fucked!.....We dont need "liberal democracy", we need another Fidel Castro!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:07 AM

LH...as you know, I am basically a socialist and support the NHS in principle, but the fears of many people in the US about such a scheme are not without foundation.

Our NHS no longer funtions as a genuine public service, as it is widely abused by a new generation with different values.

Everyone has the "right" to abuse the service and most do regularly.
from drug companies, GP's, right down to the general public.

A national health service is a wonderful ideal, but people must be made to understand and appreciate the value of such a service.....a value which cannot always be weighed in personal terms.

A service which is worth more than we can take from it personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 12 - 12:46 AM

Exactly. Same as legally mandated car insurance. Everyone needs auto insurance coverage in case of an emergency...which can incur enormous costs in personal injuries and resulting medical care. Everyone shares the cost of auto insurance. Only a few have to use it at any one time. Therefore everyone can afford it since the cost gets spread around through the whole population.

And that's exactly how it should work with national health insurance...and does, in most places. But not the USA.

I'd rather pay a small amount of money each year in taxes than suddenly be owing someone a million dollars that I don't have and can't possibly get!

Why do so many Americans not get this? I'd guess, because they've been scared by false information and just don't understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 May 12 - 12:05 AM

Has anyone polled Massachusetts residents to see how they like their healthcare system? The "public mandate" is just a thinly-masked way to avoid the nasty word "taxes"----and so what? It's obvious that, for universal insurance to work, everyone must be covered...and everyone must pay a share.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:28 PM

Yup, Don... If anything, I guess we are the insane... We keep expecting the GfinS plan??? There won't be one... GfinS, as many folks have pointed out, is a bitcher and complainer, ain't a policy wonk... Ain't in GfinS's DNA... Bitchin'??? Yeah... Complainin'??? Heck, yeah... Ideas??? Are you kiddin' me???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:20 PM

Same old meaningless static.

But that's to be expected from this source. Ignore.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:08 PM

BTW, I'd bet that Fido & Rocky's bodies arrive at my door from the Fed Ex guy before GfinS gets around to presenting an alternate plan to the Affordable Care Act...

BTW, Part 2... Looks like many Republican states have chosen to disobey federal law which requires them to set up health care insurance exchanges as part of a provision of the Affordable Care Act... Reminds me of Little Rock, Selma, Farmville...

Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the halls...

But this is what Redneck Nation does...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:31 PM

I'm willing to risk it, LH... Give the tree rat the gun...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:23 PM

The squirrel? But...he might be on your side, Bobert. He could be a registered Democrat, after all...or an independent who is willing to vote for Obama. Don't be hasty until we get an interpreter to work out exactly what he's saying. Then we'll know if he's good or evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:13 PM

Same dog I saw diggin' in my newly planted asparagus bed... Shoot the sumabich, LH, and then ship him to me... I'll grind him up and use him for fertilizer...

Send the Rocky, too... I don't eat 'um but the P-Vine will...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:11 PM

That poor little dog's life is hanging by a thread, Bobert. "Be vewy, vewy cawreful what you say," to quote Elmer Fudd.

****

Now, here's another arguing addict who wants to weigh in on the Mudcat political threads. He's small, but he packs a wicked punch! Yes, this little guy is absolutely enraged about the political situation in America, and willing to take on all comers and tell them exactly what he thinks of them! The only trouble is, we need a translator, because I'm not sure what side he's on. Is he a homophobic, fundamentalist, redneck, gun-loving, racist supporter of Fox and the Tea Party? Or is he a limp-wristed, atheistic, union-loving, latte-drinking, traitorous, sexually deviant, socialist Obama-hugger? That's the question. ;-D Which absolutely awful and complete character stereotype shall we saddle him with?

Well, anyway, here's what he has to say:

And he's REALLY ANGRY!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:19 PM

But GfinS says again that a plan is forth-coming... Of course we've heard that before and apt to hear it again...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:17 PM

Busy day. Just checking in to see if there has been any progress.

Nope.

(I don't really expect any, actually. Hard to provide an answer when he doesn't have any, Just likes to bitch, and insult people who are more knowledgeable.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:01 PM

See how easy it is, GfinS???

Now finish the quiz or yer buddy, LH, might get a nervous trigger finger and it will be on your hands...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:47 PM

"...With the passage of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies were allowed to consolidate. The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton.

A year before the law was passed, Citicorp, a commercial bank holding company, merged with the insurance company Travelers Group in 1998 to form the conglomerate Citigroup, a corporation combining banking, securities and insurance services under a house of brands that included Citibank, Smith Barney, Primerica, and Travelers. Because this merger was a violation of the Glass–Steagall Act and the Bank Holding Company Act of 1956, the Federal Reserve gave Citigroup a temporary waiver in September 1998. Less than a year later, GLB was passed to legalize these types of mergers on a permanent basis."