BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 02:56 PM

Wolfgang,
Teaching religion in school- it may well have changed I don't see that on the TV when I see kids busily reciting the Koran, or, thinking back to my own days - needing recite the Catechism by heart. Why do organised Religions need to exercise this level of control, supported by all the willing people who range from very decent humanist people to the nutcase zealots.
Also Wolfgang , it may also worth be remembering in historical terms when you cite the German lands , what an easy passage Mr. H had with the R.Catholics in Bavaria when he was starting on his road to infamy.
Were they already a captive audience because of their religious indoctrination ?.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:15 AM

I agree completely with Wolfgang's reasons for the choices he made regarding his children's schooling. This idiomatic cultural baggage is the lingua franca we must deal with. The mythological and linguistic elements must be taken into account to raise a child with adequate cultural literacy. It's something that English-as-second-language speakers also have to sort out, even if they don't practice the dominant religion among English speakers.

I would not go so far as to send my children to a religious school, but make a point of discussing the occasions when they or I myself recognize some new (to them) use of biblical or liturgical references in everyday usage. I don't know a great deal about a lot of religions, but we also have discussed (at least in passing) what we know about other religions or spiritual practices going on around us. We try to be open minded and look to good sources when the need arises. I have a few reference books on the subject of World Religions in the shelves next to where the kids do their homework.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 08:24 AM

Dianavan,

thanks for asking, for that made me think about the reasons I have. Shambles has given a good part of my possible response.

Religious instruction in schools is (mostly) fairly undogmatic. It teaches ethical questions, the stories of the bible, and faiths in general. Specific dogmas of one particular religion are only a minor part. When I went to school for one long year for instance we learned about and discussed the better known religions of the world (including communism, by the way). I loved that year most of all.

I don't believe in anything supernatural, but the general ethical teachings (nearly all) of Christianity ("love thy neighbour...") are dear to me. I see nothing wrong in them and nothing an atheist should not follow. And the Bible stories? They are a part of our cultural heritage like our Grimm stories and fairy tales and our songs. Our language has so many expressions from the Bible or the folk tales that I think my daughter will be richer if she knows the background. When I read to her (or tell her) the folk tales I do not give a single thought whether the content is factually true. The best I personally hope for is that she considers these stories another type of fairy tales but looks for the good lessons of morale often found in the bible stories (of the NT).

I'd prefer a non-denominational general ethics/philosophy/beliefs course in school like some other Germsn lands have. But I have to take what I can get and whenever we get the impression that the teacher of religion is too dogmatic or or turning indoctrinational we'll take her out.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:19 AM

Sorry to be late responding to Little Hawk, but I would ask him to look again, very carefully, at the context in which I used the word "fallacy." I did not use it in the way he has read it. In fact as a general rule I try to use words fairly accurately, which is a much sounder basis for communication than his own method, which he seems to have borrowed from Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland: "When I use a word, it means exactly what I say it means, neither more nor less."

(As an aside, I did myself notice, as I expect others did, that where Wolfgang said he had told his daughter the truth, he did not enlarge. I was not sure that this had been laid as a trap, but I did then skip down the posts to see if Little Hawk had picked up on it, which of course he had....)

What Shambles said about religious education needs just a small qualification. Certainly in the UK's state schools, RE covers the ground of the main religions without requiring or expecting a commitment to any. That's fine. But many schools in the UK are part funded by organised churches - overwhelmingly the Anglican and Catholic churches. Again there is an introduction to the beliefs of the main religions, but on the basis (not quite in so many words) that one is right and the rest are wrong. Thus the first stated aim of the school my daughter attends is to turn out good Catholics.

It was my daughter's choice that she goes to that school, and I'm entirely relaxed about it. She will work out for herself what she wants to believe. I was similarly relaxed about her being an altar girl at her local church for some years. I happened to know she would always rather be on stage than in the audience, and that the novelty would eventually wear off.

It is of some concern to me that this present so-called Labour government is now actively encouraging more faith-based schools as a way of getting more education funded from outside the state's coffers.
Indeed some schools - known as academies - are now being built, owned and managed entirely by private funders who appoint their own governing bodies and determine the ethos of their schools. This is an irresistible opportunity for, for wealthy religious fundamentalists who would not normally have a platform in the UK.

One such academy in north-east England, with Tony Blair's blessing, has abandoned the teaching of evolution and replaced it with the Old Testament creation story, taught as fact. The owner of that school promised millions of pounds for a similar state-of-the-art academy in Doncaster. But parents in the community, to their credit, protested and the local authority told the religious nut to take a jump with his millions. The town would rather make do with its existing, inadequate facilities than have folklore pumped into impressionable minds as fact.

I realise that all this would be small beer in the US, where several education authorities are already in the hands of the creationists. But as with everything else, where America is today, the UK will be tomorrow. This is more true than ever for as long as the unedifying Bush-Blair love-in continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:25 PM

The Shambles -

I was one of those kids that was allowed to decide for myself.

When I started having questions and doubts, my parents encouraged me to go to Sunday school at the church around the corner. My mom took great pains to make sure I had the right clothes and that I would 'fit in'. I liked it. I also attended other churches nearby. I loved the Sunday morning ritual.

As I grew older I started questioning the ministers. When they couldn't adequately answer my questions, I decided not to go through with my first communion.

Now that I am an older, I realize that I just wanted to be like everyone else. I'm grateful that my parents allowed me to explore and, in fact, encouraged it. I am especially happy to have found that I have a personal relation with God/Goddess that nobody could have given to me. Church is good for community but it doesn't meet everyone's needs.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:25 PM

Just caught the last in a BBC 4 series of Jonathan Miller talking to equally articulate people on the subjest of atheism.

On the subject of relgion being a physical illness - the line I rememered from tonight's show was that - Religion was a kind of moral Viagra................

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:29 PM

Mental - maybe not.
Physical - almost certainly!

Holy smoke not so hot

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:29 AM

Yeah, that's pretty silly, isn't it?

There was a news story on NPR over the weekend about the complaints that came it to the FCC about a program on CBS that had such low ratings it had been cancelled. The reporter was curious about the complaints, and through the freedom of information act found that there were only a couple of hundred complaints (all filed on religious grounds), and when the text of these complaints were viewed, two were completely original and all of the rest were the cut and paste of the text written by one other writer. So there were actually only three original complaints against this cancelled program and over which the FCC leveled something like a $10,000 fine. It's completely looney that the FCC seems to have no built in common sense. I suppose we could all start writing to the FCC to tell them what programs we DO like, to balance out the number of complaints?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:56 AM

But doesn't Organised Religion and it's brainwashing cause this sort of Outburst - "TV network CBS was fined $550,000 (£300,000) by watchdogs after more than 542,000 complaints were made about Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction".
Organisers have promised there will be no repeat of her nipple-baring incident that sparked thousands of complaints on US TV's most-watched broadcast."
For goodness sake - a womans nipple ?? and this from a country which pours out massive amounts of pornographic films and material.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:08 AM

There is a downside to this new approach of letting the children decide for themselves, whilst they are living in a community that never had this choice as children.

My daughter who was not exposed to a daily school assembly and the saying of the Lord's Prayer, complains to us that see does not know these things and feels 'out of it' when such things are said at funerals, weddings etc. She also thinks (wrongly) that she is the only one who does not know the words to the hymns.

It could be worse. She could have had (at a certain age) physical mutilations imposed upon her by the collective faith of her community. But physical scars are not the only ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:03 AM

Seems to me with so many religions floating about, that religious instruction should be left to the parents or the church. Unless of course you want your child to be instructed in a faith which may not be your own.

Seems odd to me. Here we celebrate the 'traditional' Canadian holidays but also Dwali, Chinese New Year, The Moon Festival and
Hannakah. Just what type of religious instruction would you give when your students represent thirteen different language groups? Religous instruction in public schools? Unbelievable. Best we can do is compare and contrast. Then we celebrate our similarities.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:07 AM

My children attend public schools here in Texas. These are schools where the local dominant Southern Baptist population has managed to exclude Halloween from even being mentioned because it is the antithesis of their christian belief. They pray at school board meetings, they (religiously) insist on the pledge of allegiance at the beginning of every day, probably so they can get that "under god" bit in. They will insert (their) religion wherever they can, and exclude anything they see as counter to their message. So don't imagine that just because you DON'T go to a "religious" school that you're free of it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 03:18 AM

Like I said before, yes it is...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 03:16 AM

Wolfgang - You say you send your child to school for religious instruction but that later on she can decide for herself - HUH?

Religious instruction (don't you mean indoctrination?) when taught to young children becomes part of their vision of the world. If your child decides not to conform, there will be lots of doubt and guilt. Why do you send you child for this type of instruction if you are not a believer? Wouldn't it be easier to let her find God on her own? Or not find God (whichever the case may be)?

Wolfgang said.

My wife and I are both not religious but we send our daughter to the religious instruction in school. She will be able to decide for herself later. But when she asked me last year whether there is a god I told her the truth.

AND LATER

Of course I have told my daughter when she was asking me what I know to be true without doubt: There are people who believe in god and others who don't. And I have told her I don't but she can decide for herself.

This seems to be fair enough. The religous instruction (in one faith) that used to be the case in schools in the UK has given over to what is now called Religeous Education. This is broader and covers the whole question of religion including all faiths' If this is the type of instruction that Wolfgang's daughter is receiving, and I suspect that it is, it would seem that Wolfgang's position is a fair and sensible one. If it were mor on the lines of indoctrination - then it is also clear that Wolfgang - with his views - is ready and on hand to provide a balance to this

1] There are dangers but schools do face a problem, do they teach religion just as part of and with regard to its important effect on other subjects like history?

2] Do they teach the subject in isolation?

3] Or do they not touch it with a bargepole and leave pupils in ignorance of what is at least part of the most fundmental questions of existence?

For it is not as if children are not interested in finding explanations for 'life the universe and everything'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 02:27 AM

oops - clicked above by mistake.

Wolfgang - You say you send your child to school for religious instruction but that later on she can decide for herself - HUH?

Religious instruction (don't you mean indoctrination?) when taught to young children becomes part of their vision of the world. If your child decides not to conform, there will be lots of doubt and guilt. Why do you send you child for this type of instruction if you are not a believer? Wouldn't it be easier to let her find God on her own? Or not find God (whichever the case may be)?

I wasn't baptised or indoctrinated by any specific church. I do, however, believe. I remember, "Seek and you shall find." If you don't seek, you don't find. If you do seek, you will find. Seems simple to me.

Of course, each of us will find something different. So much for one God. The essence is within all of us. We can choose goodness and light or dwell in darkness and despair.

Religion might be another name for obsessive compulsive disorder and taken to extremes may manifest itself as omnipotence.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:46 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:57 PM

There is a truly decent and balanced article I just read in a recent Time Magazine. THE GOD GENE----about a reasearcher who has found the gene that produces those fellings in folks that have it. Seems to cause chemicals to impinge on areas of the brain. So, after all, it may really be in our heads.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: annamill
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM

Yes, it's Voltaire. BTW, off the subject but very topical he also said
"It is dangerous to be right in matters in which the established authorities are wrong."

Funny huh?

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:09 AM

The Old Saying referred to above - was it Voltaire ? Whenever I see it I believe it to be - but sadly can't remember for certain.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:20 AM

Presumably I have the right to believe that other's beliefs are fairy tales! Oh good.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:50 AM

Respect of another persons beliefs is something I hold dear. The old saying "I may not agree with what you're saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." is, to me, a basic human ideal.

Amen to that.

Sadly some (even on this open discussion forum) would think this is dangerous left-wing claptrap.

The idea that folk can believe and have every right express what they wish sounds fine - but this freedom religious or otherwise - is a difficult concept in practice. In my view it is rather vital that we work hard on getting this generally accepted - before it is too late.

Don't want to go too far down this road in this thread but most folk would acept that what they read or see is a matter for them to choose and would not wish someone else to censor to protect them. But then the argument of whether children should also be exposed to this, is brought in. Probably understandably, we then agree that some limits should be placed to protect our children from input that they may not fully understand and concepts that they may not be ready for.

At the same time we appear to have little concern about organised religous faiths being taught to our children as fact. Firm facts are very important to you when you are young - as much else is uncertain, so it is little surprise that our young are receptive to being told comforting (if non-factual) beliefs, from people and communities they trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: annamill
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:12 PM

Respect of another persons beliefs is something I hold dear. The old saying "I may not agree with what you're saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." is, to me, a basic human ideal.

I expect the same from others. To respect MY beliefs, I mean. I'm not a believer in a higher diety. I think too much of our pain and happiness has been attributed to this higher power. I'm not here to argue the existence of this power, but to discuss it as a mental illness.

I recently mentioned the book "Art of Loving" by Erick Fromm. His point of view closely coinsides with my viewpoint. There are those who need God. Who need to have a purpose in life. A reason to exist. We can't just be grass fertilizer. I mean a basic NEED. Which has to be filled. I would not think of taking away "God" from those who need a god, then I would think of taking food away from someone.

I know people who strongly believe in a god but deny this god through anger, pain, depression. God is blamed for everything bad in their lives. So they do nothing to improve their lot. Just go downhill.

This can cause a very strong mental illness, I feel.

I don't depend on "God" to make my life better, or give "God" gratitude when something good happens in my life. I depend on me and have a strong faith in the goodness of other human beings.

I'm not stupid, I know not everyone can be trusted. Some are in too much pain to be trusted. I'm talking basically.

I walk through life with a very optimistic view of life based on this faith. Maybe I'm too simple minded. So far, so good though.

If someones life is controlled by a belief, or someone needs to impose their beliefs on others, that's when it becomes a serious problem and
possibly (I'm not pretending to be a expert) might be considered mental illness.

I think for every person, there is a different idea of what our existence is all about, a different concept of existence. I told you mine. I'm the brother of a blade of grass. No more, no less.

You have to remember that I'm a child of the sixties, love, flower power 'n all that. ;-)

That's why I always add
Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:04 PM

Ooh-Aah2, how does it feel to be god in your own little world? To decide whose beliefs are valid and whose aren't? This thread is perhaps now entering the lunatic-fringe part of the discussion, with the inmates running the asylum. If you believe that someone else's religion is a fairytale then you're perfectly rational, right? Declaring yourself agnostic or atheist doesn't put you above the conversation looking in, as much as you might want to position yourself thus. Anyone who participates is positioned somewhere within the context of the discussion and must take that into account.

I will point out right here that it is not my position to accept or reject your religion (or lack of it) but to state that your approach is non-scholarly when compared to the discourse that has gone before on this thread. It's not the beliefs that are expressed that are the problem, but the lack of critical thinking that goes into gushing out such overarching generalizations. Frankly, daylia and I have clashed on many occasions, usually to do with her use of totally undifferentiated source material.

This is written in a dispassionate tone, and with resignation that the timbre and nature of the conversation may well change from this point out. Too bad. It has been an enjoyable thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:24 PM

Spot on Daylia. What I am indignant about is that innocent people with mental disablities should be lumped in with morons who have perfectly good mental equipment who nevertheless believe in what in the end are fairytales.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:07 PM

*Daylia* - You've got a way with words !!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:03 AM

Maybe that would be a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:23 AM

Is Religion a form of Mental Illness?   

Organized religions are more like deadly flu bugs, specifically designed by any given cultures' "spiritual authorities" to distract, delude and devour the unwashed masses.   Sometimes these "spiritual viruses" do contribute to full-blown cases of psychosis / neurosis in vulnerable individuals. More often, though, they manifest as sporadic but predictable - and usually quite calculated - epidemics of institutionalized, sanctified social illness - such as fundamentalism, intolerance, Inquisitions, tribal (rather than global) mentality propogating hatred and "holy wars" etc.

That being said, what I'd REALLY like to discuss is ...

Is Illness a form of Mental Religion?

Maybe I'll start a new thread, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:16 AM

Religion is Myth-Information. Atheism is Myth-Understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 07:14 AM

You're going away from the Original question - it was ORGANISED Religion .
Peoples own personal beliefs which are hopefully harmless personal crutches to help reconcile their own place in this world , God , Spirituality and behaviour in this life ,were not being questioned although - it's your right to seek to expand the discussion !.
It's the thought of how Millions of people can be controlled by these Organised Religions and sometimes to commit atrocities / start Wars etc etc. in the name of the highest Diety in which they believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:13 AM

Do you think it is true that others know things? I mean in much the same way you do? Why do you think it is true? (Amos)

Yes, to the first two questions. Huh, to the third. And to all three, why do you ask that, what are you getting at?

step outside the traditional realm of facts and into the realm of the kind of truth... (Amos)

That's what I mean when I talk about 'higher truths' as a mislabeling for 'belief system'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:43 PM

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I want to offer a thought for what it is owrth.

It seems to me that in any population or congregation of people you will find a small number in the far reaches of madness, and a gradually increasing number in the zones of more and more sane. The largest number will be middling sane, perhaps occasioanlly mad but keeping to an average temperament. They will not be totally reactive but will have creatiesparks form time to time. They will tend to filter things for the better, trying to be kind and as wise as they can given their culture. A smaller number will be wiser and more sane still, seeking insight and integrating information at an above average clip. A small number will be highly aware, insightful, creative, balanced and whole under all conditions.

In other words, sanity is probably distributed in a bell-curve.

I suggest that the degree of other-determination versus self-determination follows the same curve. The lowest on the sanity scale are probably the most plagued with externally defined world views which they are not permitted or able to weigh against their own observations. The large clump in the middle have a mix of prescribed data and personally observed data and occasionally even create their own data. They are sort of balanced between inherited and other-determined or authoritarian systems of viewing things, and their own free perspectives.

On the right end, a smaller population are highly certain of what they have seen, compare received viewpoints against their own certainty and reject what makes no sense, seek new viewpoints and entertain new ways of seeing things but are not afraid to let go of any data that doesn't add up, and create new data if they find they are having new experiences beyond the usual vocabulary.

At any point on these parallel curves of distribution you can get al kinds of noise of people asserting rightness, demanding compliance, presenting screeds of researched blather about all the significance, and so on. But that is just as true of the most insane views as it is of the most sane. So large amounts of assertive literature doesn't really say much about one or another.

But I do thing that the truest and most transcendent religious perceptions come from the rare individuals who are furthest along that bell curve to the right.

Almost everything to the left of that zone is largely sound and fury, and while it may result in mayhem (because it is being dramatized and acted out) it will not, in fact result in Truth in the Platonic or transcendental sense. This implies that (a) a small number of highly sane people may be capable of religious insight which is genuinely helpful, truthful, transcendental and genuine and (b) a large number of variously less sane people will have a much larger number of altered, twisted, authoritarian, oppressive or even destructive religious-sounding perspectives which do not contribute to human well-being or understanding no matter how loudly they are asserted.

I do hope this makes some degree of sense.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:16 PM

Wolfgang:

Do you think it is true that others know things? I mean in much the same way you do? Why do you think it is true?

It seems to me that in addressing this question, you have to step outside the traditional realm of facts and into the realm of the kind of truth which makes facts possible -- namely the ways of knowing and the transactions between viewpoints and thier agreements.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Pogo
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:18 PM

Is religion a form of mental illness?

Hell yeah. Christians are all crazy as bed bugs. The wheel's turnin' but the hamster's dead, ya dig?

mmmrrf... *scowls*

Religion ain't the problem, folks. People who wear their personal beliefs on their sleeve are...those who listen to the letter of the law rather than the spirit. And that goes for ALL beliefs, mind.


So if you don't mind...I'm gonna go convert some possums. Poor little heathens. I'll save their souls yet...

;O)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 09:40 PM

if it wasn't craft season, where I have to work instead of striving to compose my thoughts, I would have had a few choice comments about vague phrases like "... believe in something larger than yourself.", but Wolfgang has said it all pretty well....

Enough words sure can make it sound like you are saying something...but it's often like eating cotton candy..just-no-substance.

Carry on...perhaps I'll join you in 3 weeks or so, if this is still going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:34 PM

A "cult" is just an organized religion with too few adherents to be in the mainstream. The functional definitions apply as well to the Boy Scouts and the Republican Party as they do to the Mormons or the Moonies. The Friends and the Presbyterians are in the same framework as the Sons of Mohammed. They all require huge gobs of conclusions be taken on faith rather than on reason. Usually they require the recognition of smallness of self compared to the Greatness of their figurehead, whatever it is. Usually, they advise you that any bad in your life comes from within and any blesisngs you experience come from them or their figurehead(s).

Go figger.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:35 PM

Rick,

In a New-Age approach to spirituality, a lot of people have picked up Black Elk Speaks and tried to take the words, translated by Black Elk's son and others, mediated by John Niehardt, and take meaning for their own lives. It can be seen generally as a rather pretentious approach, to appropriate someone else's spirituality. I see people trying to take shortcuts to what they see as an admirable world view and a what they naively see as a innocent or unburdoned (back to Eden?) approach to the world. In fact, many religions have what can be viewed as an "environmetnal component" and it might serve better if they look within their own culture and religion to find those things.

You will find that American Indians hold a wide range of opinions regarding Black Elk and his visions, and Neihardt's book is not the only source of those kinds of visions. It isn't a dead end, though for many EuroAmericans it is seen in a "historic" chapter in America's story. Different cultures and portions of society view dreams differently in level of importance. Waking or sleeping dreams or visions, as described in stories and ethnographic and anthropological texts can be taken in any number of ways, depending on who does the dreaming. I take power naps when I'm working on difficult papers because after what amounts to a brief period of deep relaxation and meditation, my thoughts sort themselves out and my task becomes clearer. I consider those times vital to how I think and work. Dreams that occur during long periods of sleep (REM) are what keep humans healthy and sane. Dismissing dreams and visions as a source of inspiration in any age is short-sighted.

What makes ideas formed during "conscious" time any more important than those that come from the unconscious? Some might say that the dreams are more honest, if reported honestly, than the things that men dream up in their waking hours. I can not represent the entire field of psychoanalysis and psychiatry in this thread, and the history of the interpretations of dreams, but there is much more to this than Freud and his take on dreams in the power structure of the Victorian-era.

In long (since "in short" rarely applies to my posts!) I'm not willing to toss religions because of anything to do with the origins of the content. Whether the content comes from human dreams, from spider prints on the sand, or from stories told by speaking rocks and animals, those origin stories of a people's spirituality are all important. I think the Bible is one of the most heavily mediated and altered (for purely political reasons) texts on the face of the planet so must point out the obvious--anyone using THAT as the "standard" of how a religion should operate is already starting with a crumbling foundation to their argument.

Wolfgang was responding to Little Hawk when he said Of course you can insist that you use any word in a completely different sense than dictionaries do. But by using the same word for different things the differences do not go away they only get blurred. Using only the word 'apples' for e.g. apples and oranges will not make differences disappear.

There isn't enough time this afternoon to give that marvelous observation the attention it diserves. This is getting to the core of so much human understanding and at the same time lack of understanding. It's the comprehension of the baggage that our languages contain, and the wonderful world of nuance. I will simply remark here that this field of Semiotics, of understanding the sign and the signifier and the signified (see about de Saussure here and here), has puzzled and intrigued scholars for decades, and has helped with a great deal of understanding of cultures "Other" than the one of reference (by whomever is casting their gaze at Others). Ruth Underhill, the famous ethnologist who wrote, among other things, Papago Woman, has a marvelous story that works here. Her "informant" was Maria Chona, a woman of what is now called the Tohono O'odham, who tired of so many questions from Underhill. At one point she told Underhill "the song is very short because we understand so much." In other words, the few words of the song contain all of the vital meaning necessary to convey everything needed, since all of the people who speak the language understand the concepts behind the few words. We can't do that in the global culture in which we live today. Just because so many of us speak English doesn't mean that the same pictures pop into all of our heads with the speaking or writing of certain words.

What "image" pops into your head with these words?

Tree-- what do you "see?"

Automobile-- what kind of vehicle pops into your head?

House--   what constitutes a house?

River-- how much water, or does water even flow in it year round?

Green-- what shade of green?

Spicy-- I think you get my drift--what constitutes "spicy" for you may not be the same for anyone else on this list.

Religion-- what practices constitute being called a religion?

god-- now there's a tough one.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 05:13 PM

And what is "the truth", Wolfgang? (Little Hawk)

That was a bait for you and only you, Little Hawk. I knew you couldn't resist.

If you would know me from my many posts on that theme you wouldn't need asking. I hate it if people use words like 'truth' for what is only their perception or their interpretation of something they have experienced or a theory or how they make sense of one bit of the world.

I use the word 'truth' only for facts and never for interpretations of facts.

Of course I have told my daughter when she was asking me what I know to be true without doubt: There are people who believe in god and others who don't. And I have told her I don't but she can decide for herself.

'Truth' I have here always used only for the basic facts that need no interpretation. 'Higher truth' or 'ultimate truth' for me is only a misleading label given by people for interpretations or belief systems they do not want to doubt any longer. That is for people I consider closed minded.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:47 PM

Non-religious people, I've noticed, always couch their arguments in this form...they automatically assume that religious (or spiritually-minded) people MUST, by definition, believe things they consider ridiculous...like "virgin birth", "parting seas, guys coming back from the dead, angels, sky gods, heaven and hell"...and so on...

Well PISS OFF! You self-important, self-satisfied, self-congratulatory pricks!

cheers for that LH, and there was I thinking 'we understood' each other. Nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

I've every bit as concerned about truth as you are, Peter K., and I do not belong to ANY official religion. Neither do I get emotional satisfaction out of attacking them all on principle, as I gather you do. And how do you know religious faith is based on a "fallacy". You don't. You just think so. That's your privilege.

Wolfgang - "when she (my daughter) asked me last year whether there is a god I told her the truth"

Ah. Really. And what is "the truth", Wolfgang? Pilate asked Jesus that momentous question, and Jesus responded with silence. (Pilate was not asking the question in good faith, and I doubt he was capable of understanding any answer that could have been given in words.)

You don't know what the truth is in the ultimate sense of the word "truth", Wolfgang, but you have an opinion about it, so I hope you said to your daughter, "It is my opinion that there is no God." If you said that, I have no objection. If you said categorically that "there IS no God" you stated something which is beyond your capability of knowing in the first place.

Non-religious people, I've noticed, always couch their arguments in this form...they automatically assume that religious (or spiritually-minded) people MUST, by definition, believe things they consider ridiculous...like "virgin birth", "parting seas, guys coming back from the dead, angels, sky gods, heaven and hell"...and so on...

Well PISS OFF! You self-important, self-satisfied, self-congratulatory pricks! Have you never heard of metaphor? A person can very easily be religiously or spiritually-minded and not believe literally in ANY of those unusual or bizarre things you like to smear every non-atheist with. Everyone who thinks differently from you is not by definition some kind of superstitious idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM

Psychosis is the illness of the religious, depression that of the unreligious.

You mean - we are all 'bonkers'?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:52 AM

Little Hawk,

you are playing word games as you often like to do. If you only meant the trivial meaning of 'greater than us' there weas no need to introduced that meaning into a thread about religion. Of course it is trivially true that e.g. a team is stronger than an individual player etc. Those who have objected to Ebbie first using 'greater' in a post have obviously meant that they (including me) do not think that there is some greater being in the sense of a god and that there is nothing supernatural around us.

SRS has quoted a definition: religious belief: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny which makes a lot of sense in this thread. Of course you can insist that you use any word in a completely different sense than dictionaries do. But by using the same word for different things the differences do not go away they only get blurred. Using only the word 'apples' for e.g. apples and oranges will not make differences disappear.

As Spock said in many Star Trek episodes: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." That is the recognition of something greater than oneself. That is the recognition that moved Joan of Arc, Abraham Lincoln, Gandhi, Einstein, and every other great benefactor of the human race that has ever lived.
"You are nothing, your country is everything" was how that thought was expressed in Germany 60odd years ago (just to widen the range of benefactors of mankind a bit).

Betsy, I'm on the (never ending) search for certainty on the level of facts, I'm not on the level of evaluation, ethics, moral decisions etc. On these levels I can live with a lot of uncertainty.

My wife and I are both not religious but we send our daughter to the religious instruction in school. She will be able to decide for herself later. But when she asked me last year whether there is a god I told her the truth.

you do not have to be mentally ill to be irrational (Athiest; is that the superlative to 'atheist'? (grin))
Never forget that you also can be rational and mentally ill. To overstate it drastically (but not without a true core): Psychosis is the illness of the religious, depression that of the unreligious.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Athiest
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

Religion is irrational, but you do not have to be mentally ill to be irrational, although it helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Rick Fanning
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:33 AM

For the most part, any religious belief is more of a result of brainwashing, either self induced or done by others. If one seriously sits down and thinks logically about the matter of their own existence, etc., they are not likely to come up with the fairy tale type beliefs and doctrines we see in most religions today. These were pretty well formulated from "visions" that men supposedly had long ago, but were not necessarily meant for all people. Black Elk had many visions that related to himself and his people, but no one has written them down in a "sacred" book that is supposedly the word of Goddess/God.

Blessings,

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:12 PM

Little Hawk said: If religion stirs greater reverence and love for life and humanity in a person, that is good. On this basis any fallacy is A Good Thing, provided only that it makes someone, somewhere, a better person.

It's a seductive argument, not least because it saves us having to concern ourselves with what the truth might be. But it's a specious argument too, because any religion is likely to affect different people in different ways. Ranking religions according to the ratios of people they influence for the greater good would plainly be farcical, so in the end it can't be ducked - we should be seeking the truth, not placebos. And if the truth turned out to be uncomfortable, that would be no basis for replacing it with lies.

To thine own self be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,CK
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 06:51 PM

People believe in the easter bunny and Santa Claus, as children, then grow out of it. But they still hang on to beliefs in virgin births, parting seas, guys coming back from the dead, angels, sky gods, heaven and hell, the power of prayer. And they're willing to kill and die for this stuff too! Wild! Imagine if an atheist tried to run for a national office...could you imagine the attacks s/he would face, the threats, the rantings and ravings all day on talk radio? It's sad...we've got such a long way to go before religion is placed in the category of pleasant little tales like the tooth fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM

Any religion can engender hatred when it is espoused by fanatical people, Frank. That's not the same as to say that a religion is necessarily about hatred. You could say the same thing regarding patriotism or partisan loyalties in politics.

As for cults, every religion is seen as a cult by intolerant people of various differing religious viewpoints.

The term "cult" is used by people to point the finger at a religion or group they don't like for some reason or are afraid of. Their fear of a given cult, of course, may be quite legitimate in some cases....and I don't deny that. There are plenty of religious groups out there that I would be inclined to avoid, and some that are extremely dangerous in one respect or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:39 PM

Frank, it sounds like you encountered a particular modern-day type of zealous groups that would be called "cults" by outsiders for various reasons. With the negative connotation because of the hate involved. But the "Cult of Diana," was simply a religious practice and belief that was older-than and ultimately sidelined-by christianity and marked as "Other" to chase followers from the Nemi's golden bough and into christianity. It is a practice as old as christianity itself. Attis and Cybell is another one, big in it's day in Asia Minor (Phrygia), and sidelined by xtians, but not before they stole the bit about Attis being impaled on the tree (though in the Attis "cult" it was an annual fertility ritual and involved sacrifice of pigs and other animals).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM

Hi Little Hawk.

"Cults are not necessarily about hatred, Frank. They may well be about a number of other things, such as: control, political power, popularity, money, etc..."

Have to disagree.

My experience is that if you attempt to disagree or disavow on any rational basis the agenda of a cult, you will see hate coming at you big time.

Cults are about blind obedience to central figures(s), unquestioning loyatly to them, and the higher up the chain of command, the more hatred and venom are expressed. The cult people will fight to preserve their belief in the way an addict will act to gain his/her drug.

How do I know? I was involved with a number of cults in my life.

Another thing, if you attempt to name them as "cults" you might be taking your life in your hands.

True religion, OTOH opens the door to inquiry and has the element of doubt which leads to enlightenment. It is not rigid and hate is not a byproduct. Therefore, it is not crazy but useful in a civilized society.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 06:13 PM

Sure that may be our interpretation of their actions but this probably says more about us than it does about animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

Dogs are exceedingly vengeful! (but only to non-family members) Commit an offence against a neighborhood dog, Shambles, and see if it soon forgets about it. :-) I have known dogs to wait years to get a chance to bite someone who made fun of them while they were chained up or trapped behind a fence and unable to defend their honor. This goes for other intelligent animals too. They can have surprisingly long memories. As for jealous...man, I have never seen anything more jealous than pet dogs and/or cats who are faced with competition of some kind for food/affection/attention/etc!

Now illness and disease...well, "disease" means "lack of ease" in the body. That's an elegant way to describe illness, I think, and very apt. If one wants to clothe it in spiritual metaphors, what's the problem with that? You can look at it in a materialistic way or you can look at it in an energetic way. Both are valid, and one is the reflection of the other. These things are linked with religion if you think they are...and they're not if you don't. Like everything else. :-) It's up to you. Why fret over the fact that other people find meaning in something which you don't find meaning in?