Birmingham play closed by mob

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:29 PM

OK, British culture equals Monty Python.

That's what you are most famous for here.

Anyhow it's apparent that a Sikh woman wrote the play. And the Sikh men there are reacting the same as if they were in Iran don't you think? They could care less what other people in the country think.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:19 PM

As i said in reply to that statement before, define British culture excluding any immigrant influences. Didn't get an answer to that one...Besides, it was a Sikh woman who wrote the play.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:56 PM

Remember what I said in another thread.    You are losing your culture to who you are letting into your country and will not assimilate, but will make your country, theirs.

Perfect example.

these are Sikhs first, Britains second, or not at all.

You are paying the price.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:45 PM

Greg's point about the role of the police is the crux of it. Before the play had been banned I started a different thread about it (there's a link somewhere above) and what particularly annoyed me then was that when the playwright had received death threats, the police reaction was to advise her to make no public statements. This was a bit like their response to the fatwah issued against Salman Rushdie, which was that he should hide from public view for several years (thereby ruining his life) until the fatwah was lifted.

The number of troublemakers was a bit larger than Greg suggested - several hundred last Saturday night, when they broke the foyer's glass frontage and also forced entry backstage. And then there was a shrieking mob of about 400 (according to Channel 4 news) at the Old Rep today, protesting at that theatre's proposal to take over the production. The Old Rep had gone as far as to call the other Rep's capitulation "cowardice" - but having had a taste of what the latter was up against, it has now been forced into the same capitulation.

Perhaps Greg is overly charitable to the "grey-bearded elders". Far from condemning the violence, they have in fact exploited it. But - again as I said in the other thread, and Poppagator said above - some Christian churches hastened to implicate themselves equally by joining the call for a ban. The guy who has been speaking for these churches (self-appointed or not I don't know) is the Catholic archbishop of Birmingham. Entirely fitting, when it is recalled that the Catholic church burnt books rather than see knowledge falling into the hands of the untutored masses.

Hardest to explain is that all three main political parties in Birmingham supported the ban. However Evan Harris, a LibDem spokesperson on the national stage, was vociferous from the outset in supporting the theatre's right to stage the play and to resist pressure to rewrite it.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 01:00 PM

Georgiansilver made a point that seems relevant to me - "...if I were in India watching it (ie a similar play set in a Christian place of worship)I might feel even more aggrieved." Things that you can shrug off in a country where you are a well established majority feel a bit different when you part of a minority which is subject to various kinds of hostility and attack.

As I understand it the position of the Sikh community leaders was to ask for the play to be amended, so that the action took place in a community centre rather than a Sikh Temple, and that seems a reasonable and prudent suggestion.

In face of the refusal of the people putting it on to do this, they supported peaceful and legal protest. The riot appears, so far as I can see, was as spontaneous as such things always are (which means never wholly spontaneous). It's the kind of thing that has happened before, notably in the history of the Abbey Theatre in Dublin.

It's all resulted in an enormous amount of publicity for the theatre and the people involved in the production. You can't buy media coverage like that...

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 11:43 AM

Well if Jedi Knight has been recognised as a valid religion, then perhaps we should start our own church, name suggestions welcome.
Then we could become an opressed minority overnight, and people who made rude remarks about folkies could be tried for blasphemy, and if found guilty they could be sentenced to listen to Elmer P Bleaty records for 5 years. We could claim that our religion required us to sing in pubs with a load of our mates, and as it would be a religious ceremony we don't need a PEL. we could elect Bishops, and Archbishops, we could have Folkies and Tarts theme parties We would be entitled to have a Folking Archbishop sitting in the House of Lords, he'd fit in well with some of the folking idiots that are there already.
How about, The Folking Church ?

Giok:~)

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:46 AM

Folkies ARE a minority group, Shambles. At least where I come from! But I know what you mean.
S:0)

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 08:34 AM

We also have a moderately violent semi-riot by a few young hot-headed Sikh yobs. That, if not right and proper, is the nature of the young yob (and Sikh yobs, ike the aboriginal kind, are not averse to a drop of lager).

It is the Government's reaction - or lack of reaction to this latter action, preventing the play - by making it unsafe that is of concern.

Perhaps, if when threatened with closure, the participants of folk music sessions in pubs, were to have taken this course of violent protest action - the Government may have taken steps to ensure these esssions were not prevented by licensing legislation being taken beyond the letter of the law by some local authorities?

I also suspect that had these sessions been a musical activity by a minority group (like the Sikhs) under threat - that this government would have taken the issue a lot more seriously and many perfectly safe pub sessions would not have been prevented for no good reason.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 06:53 AM

As the originator of this thread, I'm glad to see so many of you realise what this means, and Greg Stephens points above just about sum up my feelings too. Where is the leadership?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:02 AM

There was one similar incident in Scotland some 30 years ago, as I recall. Billy Connolly was in the process of breaking out of the Scottish folk club circuit, and was playing in a large theatre in Glasgow. At that time he had recorded an LP which included a sketch on the Last Supper, setting it in Glasgow. [ This was where he got the nickname of "The Big Yin" ]. The monologue was extremely funny – I saw him do it several times – but no doubt could have caused offence to committed Christians. The Glasgow show was picketed by one Pastor Jack Glass and some of his supporters, accusing Connolly of blasphemy. Their protest as I recall was entirely peaceful, and Connolly's show went ahead, to no doubt enlarged audiences as a result of the publicity it got on nationwide TV. Connolly's comment was that "Christianity has been around for nearly 2000 years. If it feels threatened by Billy Connolly, it must be in a worse state than I thought".
30 years later, Christianity is still around, and so is "The Big Yin".

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:52 AM

Instead of banning stuff the religous folk don't like,
why not ban all organised religon?, save a lot of hassle!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:49 AM

Even with David Blunkett gone, we are still fast becoming a totalitarion country.

Giok

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:30 AM

I think some people are putting an interpretation on these events that the facts don't really support. I dont think this is a huge attack on the fabric of tolerant British society by the Sikhs. It isnt. I definitely think this is a terribly dangerous thing to have happened to our society, but I dont particularly blame the Sikhs. What we have is an offensive play written by a young iconoclastic Sikh playwright. That is right and proper, that is what young iconoclasts are for. We have a dignified protest by the venerable grey-bearded elders of the religion. That is right and proper, that is what grey-bearded elders are for. We also have a moderately violent semi-riot by a few young hot-headed Sikh yobs. That, if not right and proper, is the nature of the young yob (and Sikh yobs, ike the aboriginal kind, are not averse to a drop of lager).
    No, the big problem was the activities(or lack of them) of the police, and more important, of the government. The row and ructions were just the sort of things we expect to happen from time to time. The terrible thing is that the government sat back and let the mob determine what plays the theatre put on, instead of doing what they should have done: stepped straight in and said this play stays on, if it takes all the midlands police force, if it takes troops, if takes whatever it takes. The government's craven capitulation to a sectarian bunch of stone throwers is a tragedy. Very few people in this government seem to remember Kipling's famous and obvious political gem, that once you have paid them the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane. Give in to one mob, and you encourage the next lot. Simple, reallY.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 03:39 AM

Britain the last place on earth where freedom still exists...but..

If the Sieks don't like the way society happens in Britain why don't they go over to where things are done their way ...and bloody stay there..

soley my opinion OC

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:27 AM

Some folk may have missed this earlier post answering the suggestion posted, that this thread should be moved and suggesting that it should not - followed by an anonymous 'editorial' comment (in green writing) - explaining despite this - why this anonymous person's actions in ignoring this view and moving this thread to the BS section were superior, justified and necessary.

No! There's a thread about Phil Och's birthday mentioning a play featuring Phil's work. He attacked a lot of institutions. Take "Cannons of Christianity". In the Birmingham Theatre debacle the Catholic Church came out in support of the Sikhs, a coalition of religions. How would we feel as a community dedicated to music and song if a religious coalition rioted sufficiently to get the play about Phil closed down?

This issue is one that certainly belongs in the musical thread.

[The following in green]
Actually, it does belong in the lower section. The top area is for music, the bottom area is for discussions of issue that spawn the music, among other things.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 02:00 AM

Spot on - so why do the thought police have such support?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:56 PM

People who object to the content in a play have one simple and obvious course of action...don't attend said play! If they think they have the right to stop other people from attending it, they are wrong, and they are encouraging a form of fascism, in my opinion.

The play was apparently written by a Sikh woman. She has a right to present her view of reality about her community. Others do not have a right to suppress her view, but they have a perfect right to criticize it (peacefully), to demonstrate against it (peacefully), to write articles criticizing it, and to choose not to see the play.

I detest thought police, and I don't care what religion they pretend to be espousing when they attempt to violently force their views on others. Thought police are people who are scared. They must have very little real faith in what they stand for if they imagine it is so vulnerable to any alternative presentation of viewpoint! Thought police are the very expression of a mind crippled by fear.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:34 PM

Kendall should know that our right to piss people off doesn't depend on any God, thank God. And that analogy he cites about shouting "fire" doesn't work in the UK, where "free speech" is taken to mean the right of every individual to express views, regardless of whether such views might offend others. A moron in a hurry could not confuse that concept with a malicious shouted warning.

However there are two laws which do curb this freedom of expression: those concerning racial incitement and blasphemy. The blasphemy law protects only Christian churchs - perhaps only the Church of England - though it is soon to be extended to other religions. (For my part I'm against both laws, but that's a separate debate.)

Here are some sentences from the Birmingham Post review of the play at issue here, published before Saturday night's violence:

[....] After such a build up, you're expecting quite a shock, and this terrific new play doesn't disappoint. It is offensive, and furious, and bloodthirsty, and angry, in all the right places. Set mainly in the Gurdwara, the Sikh place of worship, this searing comedy features rape, abuse, murder, violence - while still managing to be touching and tremendously important [....] The best drama takes risks, kicks out and offends, and the best writers expose hypocrisy and pretence where they find it. Gripping and essential.

Kendall, if you want to know whether the setting needs to be the Gurdwara, get hold of The (London) Independent (Dec 21), which published the offending act of Behzti across the whole of its front page and an inside page. Maybe after reading it you would conclude that the setting was inappropriate. That would be your entitlement. You are NOT entitled to rewrite the play to suit your own agenda, and neither is anyone else.

If you want to see a world in which art is not allowed to be provocative, and may be conceived only by committees truly representative of their communities, you will rejoice that the capitulation in Birmigham has brought such a world one step closer.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: burntstump
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 01:00 PM

It will be interesting to see what action is taken against those who were arrested.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 11:34 AM

This is a sad situation, but only history repeating itself yet again.

I understand why the Birmingham Rep closed the play, feeling they had to protect their other audience members, but it's an issue which needs to be discussed again and again.

Freedom of Expression vs Censorship

I'm in complete agreement that the Sikh community did not serve their own cause by what happened on Saturday night, and it will be interesting to see what now happens when the play re-opens at another theatre.

Mob rule is not the way. Freedom of expression needs to be protected. Protest is good, and not supporting a theatre if you disagree with what it produces is valid.

But no one won anything over this mess.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 10:54 AM

Only in Hull, jOhn, only in Hull...

:D

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 10:09 AM

Doesn't someone get murdered in the Nativity Play?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 10:03 AM

I wonder how christians would like it if this took place in a church?

I don't recall any hoardes of screaming, violent Christians picketing any showing of Beckett. Isn't a murder committed in a cathederal in that one..?

DtG

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 09:37 AM

Um...wait a minute, nobody's being forced to see the play, are they?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 09:32 AM

It makes a difference who's ox is gored. I wonder how christians would like it if this took place in a church? I don't know how Sieks think, so I don't know why they are offended. It follows that many people don't care how they think, that's why we have endless wars. It takes less brains and effort than trying to understand other people.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 09:05 AM

Our right not to be offended

Our right not to receive/inflict corporal punishment, even if it is because we inflicted physical pain on someone else.

Our right to be shitty and rude to our parents, and any other adult we want, because they can't touch us, and anyway kids on TV do it all the time.

Our right to walk about drunk or drugged or just plain antsy, and trip over an uneven paving stone and sue the local council for millions.

Our rights our right our rights!!!
What about our responsibilites, to be pleasant, to be helpfull, to not kick others when they're down.

Traditional Scout Promise

On my honor I promise that I will do my best:
To do my duty to God and my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law.

I took this oath as a kid, do they still do it?

Giok

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:32 AM

I am just jolly glad that there are people who are prepared to protect us from seeing these things - whatever methods they use. I think that this level of censorship is acceptable.

Thank you to all those who volunteered to smash up the theatre - you are doing a great job.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:29 AM

There seems to be a current belief that people have a right not to be offended.Where did this come from? Protect kids by all means, but adults shouldn't need their sensibilities protected. Grow up for gods' sake.
nick

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:06 AM

Guardian article with the offensive excerpt from that play

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:46 AM

a - Yes. b - Ask the playwright.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:44 AM

Having not seen the play either, I can't answer that, kendall. But IF part of the point of the play is that evil can exist anywhere, maybe it does have to be in a temple - or at least in some exceptionally 'safe' place.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:28 AM

Do we have a God given right to piss people off? Does that scene have to be in a holy temple?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:17 AM

It doesn't. That's the point.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

What got up MY nose was a 'Spokesperson' for the Sikh community blathering about their RIGHT to protest . Since when does a RIGHT To Protest give them the right to smash up other peoples property ?

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

Has anyone ascertained which particular Sikh faction was responsible for the demonstration? There are several in this country who support parties based in the Punjab and are anti/pro Khalistan etc etc. It is possible that politics plays a part in this just as much as the subject matter. It is not unknown for opposing factions to attack each other with kirpans (swords) etc at their Gurdwara's. However, if the various religious leaders gang together so will their followers until they fall out again, and they will.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 06:41 AM

I think the theatre had every right to put on the play, regardless of what or who it could be seen to be criticising, because i think everyone has the right to criticise any idea they want to...that includes religions. I also think the protesters had every right to protest peacefully for the same reason. As soon as a protest becomes violent, however, it's a completly different situation...

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 06:40 AM

When a group of cultural iconoclasts take it upon themselves to intimidate the people of a country, through ignorance and uncivilised behaviour, the very least we can do as a civilised nation is support the endevours of all the artists involved in putting on this play. Instead ministers and officals hope the whole episode will fizzle out, however the embers of cultral and artistic intimidation are still burning. From the renaissance to tate modern a great number of people have suffered, died and worked hard just so we can we can put plays on like the one in Birmingham.

Regards G.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 06:10 AM

Mr Rat is exactly right.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,rat
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:53 AM

Hoo hah Mr Keith, all it is doing is stoking the fires of the wretched BNP.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:41 AM

I might reasonably object to being criticised for being a white anglo saxon. I did not choose my race and we have no common, unique human qualities.
If someone attacks my Christian beliefs, I can choose to change my religion or challenge the challenge or just ignore it. I have no right to forbid anyone expressing opinions that cause me discomfort.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:35 AM

Sir jOhn has identified the main issue here. It is NOT about religion, who likes what, who cares about what, censorship, etc, etc, it is about LAW AND ORDER.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, attacking a building, breaking windows and doors and threatening those inside should have been arrested on the spot and the riot police deployed to prevent any further such criminal activity.

The police have totally abdicted their responsibilities.

This country is going to the dogs, if it hasn't already.

Pete

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: MuddleC
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:29 AM

In this 'free' country that everyone seems so intent on entering, the proper response should have been ..
Last night was the opening of an extremely nasty play at the Vic. Being a critic, I didn't have to pay to get in, but still felt cheated....@
-remember, you don't have to go in. Vote with your feet!
Just look at some Shakespeare plots for 'non-politically correct' plots, -I'll just go and get my pitch-fork, Stratford's not far....death to the RSC! down with iambic pentameter!
.. I think the stuff in the Tate Modern could do with a bit of a torching, who's coming???.....

Actually, what 'Guest' had written earlier is very thought provoking:-
"During a performance by the Watersons in which they included a song about hunting "Dido, Bendigo" a group of anti-hunting demonstrators stormed the folk club, tearing off the doors, smashing windows and terrorising the audience.
The brewery responsible for the evening's entertainment upheld the right of the group to sing whatever they wished, but in the interests of public safety decided to close the folk club and ensure the Watersons were not booked at any of their other venues".
-similar songs were declared illegal under Health & Safety legislation passed following a lively 2 minute debate after which the Parliament Act was used in order to allow the whole House of 5 MP's to go home for their tea.
I.D cards will solve it...................................NOT!

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:28 AM

If the members of the Sikh, and other immigrant communities integrated more with the inhabitants of their adopted country, and remember that it many cases they chose to live in the country, then the would be more accepted. This in turn would lead to their feeling 'at home' and secure. It is insecurity and suspicion of the motives of the predominently white run theatre that put this play on that is behind this. The way they see it, this play would never have seen the light of day in the Punjab, and they seem to be trying to impose the same values on this country. I can't remember who said it, or the exact words, but this play may be crap, but I defend to the death their right to put it on. They showed Tracy Emin's 'Bed', and Damien Hirsts 'Mother and Child'and I hated them, but that doesn't mean I should rouse a rabble of my mates and force the National Gallery or wherever to close down.

Giok

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:18 AM

I completely agree with Dave the Nome, religous loonies are trying to take over, and this pile of shit goverment are letting them.
If the people that smashed a theatre up and issued threats were doing that in a pub, they would have been thrown in the cells, after been smacked about a bit by riot police.
But as they are religous types, council etc give in to them, and cancel the play.
If you don't like they play, don't go to see it, but dont smash the place up that is showing it.

If the play was about a footballer raping someone, i doubt there would be gangs of footballers smashing the place up?

I reckon if Satanic Verses was released now, this stupid goverment would try to ban it.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 05:11 AM

There already is a thread "below the line" with BS prefix (although the way my preferences are set, there is no line). It has the appropriate links, and was started by someone who feels no need for the cloak of anonymity. Altogether a better discussion. Religious intolerance - take two.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM

Got logged in at last.
THis should definitely be BS

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM

I think we should all picket local infant schools. They are showing a play extemely offensive to all sorts of people where it portrays a woman giving birth to a baby, which is not even her husbands, in a stable of all places! It stereotypes the Jews as not being charitable enough to give the poor kid a room. It is offensive to Moslems in that is shows 'Eastern Kings' showing respect to an icon of Christianity. It is hurtful to Christians in showing all the early worshipers to be sheep lovers. Just who does it NOT offend. Sheesh...

We are living in an extemely sad time where a minority mob can dictate what does and does not take place in a legitimate theatre. How on earth can the police let this happen? If the mob were comprised of Aston Villa supporters outside Birmingham City's ground they would not get away with it. How can the leaders of the Sikh community support such an action? Would they also support the Moslem death threats on Salmon Rushdie?

Worrying. I do not particulary care about the play itself one way or another. I hope however that it is staged at a theatre with a bit more bottle and where the police will use their legitimate powers to disperse any such future mobs. Doesn't the government frown on giving in to terrorists?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:46 AM

I;ve not seen the play(naturally, the protesters havent allowed me to). But I do think this is a disater for the country. Not because a mob closed a play, these things happen, and will happen: theatre is ften a subseversive art, and will often annoy the righteous. I think it is a disater but because the governement didn't stand up and say "You have a right to go to the theatre, and we are going to defend that right".
    We have a government which has annoyed a lot of Muslims, and it thinks it can get out of this fix by cosying up to religions generally. In this case, by appeasing a Sikh mob, I think they have generated serious trouble in the future, for all of us. Do we really want censorship carried out by screaming mobs? It isn't a very sane way to run a country.

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:44 AM

First they came for the playwrights....

Subject: RE: Birmingham play closed by mob
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 04:04 AM

I'm a bit lost by the Niemoller quotation, cobber. Are you saying we should be standing up for the rights of the Sikhs to suppress the play or for the rights of the other Sikhs (such as the author, who is a Sikh herself) to speak out?