BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 09:28 AM

Jingoism is on display on the very site of the Royal British Legion, for instancehere.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 09:14 AM

I suggest you look up the Philosophical burden of proof, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:45 AM

Dave,
Keith - It is you stating it as fact. It is up to you to prove it.

The absence of any sighting, any of us or anyone else, proves beyond reasonable doubt that there are none.
Both disagreeing historians and red swans.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:41 AM

Jim,
Margaret McMillan and Max Hastings in particular make actual statements in their books which diametrically oppose tour claims

No they do not.
I have read both. You clearly have not.

Here is Macmillan on a book by Stephenson, which Rag and I both read and discussed.

"Like many of his fellow historians, Stevenson challenges much of the accepted wisdom – for example, that the generals had no ideas about how to break the deadlock – yet the prevalent view of the war remains under the influence of the highly critical literature of the late 1920s and early 1930s, with its emphasis on the horrors of the trenches and its portrayal of a futile struggle for obscure or ignoble ends, managed by inept political leaders and unimaginative generals. How many of us saw Oh! What a Lovely War with a slight sense of superiority to the people of the past, so easily duped?

Stevenson argues persuasively that we must believe that men and women meant what they said when they talked about duty and sacrifice, that they accepted the war, even willingly."

Elsewhere she said,
"The wartime generals were not all cowards and incompetents as Alan Clark argued in his infamous The Donkeys (1961). A new generation of British historians, among others, has done much to explode such lazy generalisation and show that commanders developed both strategies and tactics that, in the end, worked."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7b6f0490-6347-11e3-a87d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2oJ9WwKyd

And,
"Britain certainly thought it had legitimate reasons for going in, and I think it did," she says.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/25/margaret-macmillan-just-dont-ask-me-who-started-war

Macmillan in her own words rubbishes your views on this.
Everything written in the last twenty years does!
That shows beyond reasonable doubt that you are wrong about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:40 AM

One of the benefits of a higher education Teribums is that you learn not just "raw facts" interesting as they are, but you also learn to question those self same facts. Is the "evidence" before you correct.

You question the writer. You question his/her ethos, you question their politics and WHY they are writing the book.

You ask if the "facts" they are writing of are presented objectively and not subjectively.

You seek all the available information, not just the selective bits that go along nicely with your personal preferences.

You should always question yourself, especially yourself. When you have done this you MAY have an insight into the subject in question. Providing you have a modicum of intelligence.

Regurgitating "facts" is normally left behind at your secondary school.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:37 AM

Have a look at No 9

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:24 AM

Keith - It is you stating it as fact. It is up to you to prove it. It is not for anyone else to disprove. Your red swans analogy is, if you will excuse the pun, more of a red herring.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:17 AM

Come back when you can say that you have read them all.

No Dave, you come back when you find one that disagrees.
None of us have yet found one (Ferguson acknowledged) that disagree my views.
Is anyone aware of one that does, that I somehow missed?
No!

I also know that there are no red swans even though I have not seen them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:17 AM

GUEST Dave here is how "erudite" nameless one's post was:

GUEST- 15 Dec 15 - 03:12 AM


1: We are discussing the degree of jingoism versus the degree of commemoration.

Nameless GUESTS and the usual suspects weren't go back to the beginning of the thread and count how many posts there were before we got "The Butcher of the Somme" crack?

2: For Teribus to wade in and try to stifle the debate by his immature "it's all commemoration with no jingoism" is not only irrelevant to debating the degrees but also professing profound ignorance."

I must apologise for having and opinion? Or am I just simply not entitled to voice it? And nameless GUEST has the brassneck to witter on about stiffling debate.

NOTE: GUEST Dave we are still waiting after over 1,000 posts to get one single example of this alleged "Jingoism" - the one you offered up had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with either the RBL Festival of Remembrance or the Service of Remembrance did it?

3: If the absurd position taken by Teribus, Keith, Michael Gove and HiLo had merit, nobody would have bothered debating it in the first place.

Nobody as far as I can see has bothered to debate the subject of the thread - which was introduced and steered towards a Keith baiting exercise almost from the outset. By the way what absurd position? I have stated that as far as my witnessing of the event it was all about commemoration, until any of you can furnish one single example of "Jingoism" my opinion will remain unchanged.

4: That the November services merely remind intelligent people of the ugly side of military incompetence is sad, because when they began many years ago, they were a warning to us all of the horrors of war, the bad decisions that lead to unnecessary death and to mourn rather than thank those slaughtered.

Hate to point this out to you nameless one but the "ugly side" of incompetence that normally results in war is generally political. It was the horror of the First World War that lead to the vain glorious hope that the policy of appeasement would work - a policy I would hasten to add that was advocated by most of the writers of the "Revisionist" crap that you lot all believe. In 1933/34 had there been a GWB in power in either France or Great Britain then the Second World War would never have happened - doubt that? Then read the orders given to General Heinz Guderian for the re-occupation of the Rhineland:

If so much as one single French Gendarme puts up his arm and orders you back - you are to retreat - Source - Guderian's own autobiography - Panzer Leader which by the way Raggy was also on our compulsory reading list.

So come along chaps get your heads together and give us an example of "Jingoism" that was evident at the RBL Festival of Remembrance in the Royal Albert Hall, or at the Service of Remembrance at the Cenotaph.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 08:07 AM

"Has Corbyn said that would never be willing to approve the use of nuclear weapons? YES or NO"
Hopefully no - the existence of nuclear weapons is contradictory - the reality that countries have them is a threat to others who also have them (a sort of deterrence), but the actual use of them inevitably and unavoidably against millions of civilians would be nothing other than a mindless act of vengeance and only monsters would ever carry out such an obscene act of mass murder.
The only person in authority ever to have actually proposed such an obscene act in a wartime situation was General Westmorland who suggested that America "nuke North Vietnam back to the Stone-age".
The reality of the dangers of possessing nuclear weapons was when Israel attempted to persuade Apartheid/fascist South Africa to obtain them and offered their assistance in doing so.
I've never been sure whether this was one extremist state attempting to unite with another with similar views, or simply "business" - worth remembering that Israel has developed a lucrative drone industry.
The further to the right the world moves, the greater the threat to humanity from these obscene and unusable weapons - which is why I'm more than happy to be referred to as "comrade" by two right wing extremists - thanks for the compliment.
No sane military group or political party would ever use these weapons - it is obvious to all that their use would destroy the planet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:54 AM

As neither yourself or Lofty sees the need to explain anything you come out with and deliberately ignore questions

Eh? Come on, teribums, I thought you were at least making an effort before. You seem to have gone back to being confused. Time to change the meds I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:45 AM

So which University was it Teribums?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:45 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - 15 Dec 15 - 04:44 AM Care to tell me why I should have to Raggy? After all it is not me claiming to have Doctorates in anything, or sounding off about being a Fellow of any Royal Society. As neither yourself or Lofty sees the need to explain anything you come out with and deliberately ignore questions could you provide any logical explanation why either Keith A, GUEST HiLo or myself should jump through hoops of your making?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:37 AM

Still nothing to add chaps? Give's a nudge when you have come up with something.

By the way at what point in either the RBL Festival of Remembrance or at the Service of Remembrance at the Cenotaph did the UK's Chief of Defence Staff criticise the Leader of the Opposition's position on nuclear weapons?

"Corbyn has said he would never be willing to approve the use of nuclear weapons. Corbyn's stance defeated the point of having a nuclear deterrent"

Has Corbyn said that would never be willing to approve the use of nuclear weapons? YES or NO

If the answer to that question is YES then with Corbyn as Prime Minister Great Britain's nuclear deterrent just simply is no deterrent at all - In stating the above the CDS is merely stating the blindingly obvious - So chums how can that be construed as being an example of "Jingoism"?? I know that you are thick, unfortunately for you I am not, so best explain yourselves - I ask in vain because I know and Keith A knows, in fact the world and his dog knows that you never do.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 06:26 AM

"Are you seriously claiming that all the historians have gone wrong and the Mudcat Comrades alone hold the truth of history?!"
One more time Keith - just for a laugh
You have never shown that you have ever read an historian - not once - a latest peep as a few world war books that you claim to have supported your case contradict utterly what you have claimed - Margaret McMillan and Max Hastings in particular make actual statements in their books which diametrically oppose tour claims (I read bits of 'The War that Ended Peace' and 'Catastrophe' with growing incredulity last week)
As for Clark's 'The Sleepwalkers' - that should be a compulsory part of any history curriculum!
If "history never dies" - why have you demanded only current living historians and disqualified dead ones throughout your arguments? - you are a self-contradicting joke!
Your arguments are a dishonest, ludicrous mess - the pair of you have refused to respond to the real points of the war (your bullying bodyguard sneered at the suggestion that the War should have a moral, humane aspect)
Your only interest in the subject is that of a jingoist setting out to show the War as a high point in British history when in fact it was the lowest - something to be deeply ashamed of and not glorified as it has been by you pair of extremist flag-waggers.
Between you - a braindead poser and a bullying, nationalist, wannabe soldier, you have proved nothing and convinced nobody of anything other than your own vacuous right-wing nationalism.
You have even gone to the extent of contradicting your own star tabloid journalist (remembering that you insisted on "real, living, qualified historians" from the rest of us.)
"Comrades" - don't you wish you had a few of your own? - The pair of you are totally alone on this one - which says all that needs to be said for your arguments - your contempt for those who disagree with you takes in all those on this forum who have an interest in British twentieth century history - "Muppets" all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:28 AM

Thank you GUEST at 03:12, a very erudite post summing up this whole discussion succinctly. Especially the last sentence. And if Teribus wants concrete examples, look no further than the UK Chief of Defence Staff using Remebrance Day as cover for a puerile criticism of the Leader of the Opposition's position on nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:44 AM

You missed a bit Teribums, you didn't tell us which University you attended.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:06 AM

Hi all!

Just thought I'd pop in and see how you all are.

Oh, no better then?

Keep taking the tablets. No, the lozenge type. The tablets of stone Terribulus thinks exist dissolved in 1919.

You know, there isn't a fine line, there's a huge Maginot line between laughing at entrenched fantasy and coming out with abuse. If Terribulus and Keith A hole of Hertford didn't insist on perpetuating romantic idealised views of what is at the end of the day a public service and no more, perhaps people wouldn't point and laugh so much?

You must get those Boys Own annuals onto eBay.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:55 AM

Mmmm, sort of nearly had it early on there but slipped into copying your betters later on. Must try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:47 AM

Pssst GUEST (Who could any number of the "usual suspects") take a good look back through this thread and you will find that nobody apart from ourselves have been discussing this.

The thread started out with some fairly basically inaccurate and incorrect observations being made by Raggytash and Dave the Gnome then it transformed after 23 posts into your usual Keith A baiting exercise, which to give the man his due he has seen you all off once again.

To bait Keith A even further thread drift onto the subject of WWI occurred and as in all other threads on that topic the "usual suspects" took another walloping, their myths, lies and misrepresentations being countered by established and verified fact, logic and commonsense. To the extent where we get Raggytash and Lofty showing us all that they know how to look up words in a dictionary and demonstrating to us all that they have no idea at all how to use those words in either a written or spoken dialogue.

You and your pals in the Mudcat Forum Keith A Baiting Society have been asked to give examples of this alleged "Jingoism" and once again you lot come up big on allegations and smears, but awfully short on details, examples, proof. Oh Dear, How strange, How predictable, How Sad, Never Mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:12 AM

We are discussing the degree of jingoism versus the degree of commemoration.

For Teribus to wade in and try to stifle the debate by his immature "it's all commemoration with no jingoism" is not only irrelevant to debating the degrees but also professing profound ignorance.

If the absurd position taken by Teribus, Keith, Michael Gove and HiLo had merit, nobody would have bothered debating it in the first place. But clearly, poster boy parades for the benefit of the recruiting sergeant still persist, still exacerbate conflict and still confuse the glory, pomp and circumstance of glorious war with the assertive social worker role many of our soldiers view their trips abroad as.

That the November services merely remind intelligent people of the ugly side of military incompetence is sad, because when they began many years ago, they were a warning to us all of the horrors of war, the bad decisions that lead to unnecessary death and to mourn rather than thank those slaughtered.

They have been hijacked by the crocodile tears of those who use war as a tool or for those with fancy uniforms, a reason to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 02:52 AM

They dish it out then they can expect nothing less in return.

Au contraire, teribums. We expect far more from you and, to date, we have been very disappointed :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:31 PM

Aggression IS abuse GUEST, Dave. They dish it out then they can expect nothing less in return.

"the battle of the Somme as a tactical victory, rather than an unspeakable and unforgivable sacrifice of life,"

As there was actually the greatest conflict the world had to that date ever seen going on at the time, there is nothing reasonably, logically or factually preventing it from being all three at one and the same time. In 1916 Falkenhayn put into practice a concerted campaign of attrition with the express intention of bleeding the French and British Armies white (His words GUEST Dave) by the end of 1916 the German Army had suffered losses it could not replace or recover from and which ultimately resulted in their defeat in 1918.

While we are on that subject Raggy the German Army that was defeated in 1918 was demobilised and under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles any future German Army was restricted in size to a force of 100,000 men that was allowed no heavy weapons. I believe the Army you are referring to was one built in defiance of the Treaty of Versailles, so not really the same army that was irreparably damaged by Falkenhayn's misguided strategy in 1916.

But no mind go and join Lofty dancing on the head of his pin - mind you with someone as thick as yourself you'd probably dance on the other end.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:35 PM

Teribus,

Good grief thats not abuse, I may have described it as aggression but not abuse. Keith was called "professor", you can call me that if you like, I don't care. The abuse on this thread started much later, with comments like.

"WTF!!!! - Can you actually READ Mr Carroll??? What part of this do you NOT UNDERSTAND???"

And this abuse did not not come from Keith, who I have found to be mostly polite though often misguided. It came from you. And later, HiLo.

And as for "gone very quiet" do you seriously think that waiting for your pearls of wisdom in order to give an instant response is all I have to do?

From someone who regards the battle of the Somme as a tactical victory, rather than an unspeakable and unforgivable sacrifice of life, and who does not see the jingoism of rows of current military brass (not veterans) lined up at the Cenotaph to celebrate the incompetence and inhumanity of their predecessors, why am I not surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:33 PM

Ironically, every time I make a reasoned well balanced observation based on assessment of the evidence, the moderators spare the blushes of Teribus and Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:31 PM

Teribums, you are right in that your knowledge of history is encyclopedic. Sadly, due to the nature of your seemingly tiny mind, this knowledge seems to have prevented the more human traits of imagination and compassion from flourishing. So what we end up with is a toy soldier who knows all about the subject of past wars but does not have the imagination or compassion how to use that knowledge to prevent it happening again. You and your pal can know as much about history as you like but none of you will ever rise to do anything with that knowledge. Fortunately.

Keith

I only claim that the history books agree my points.
I read them. That is how I know.

Come back when you can say that you have read them all. Shouldn't take you long.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 04:26 PM

Teribums, when you finally untangle your knickers allow me to enlighten you on some very basic English.

Irreparable: (Of an injury or loss) impossible to rectify or repair:

This is from the Oxford Dictionary.

If the German army was IRREPARABLY damaged it could not, a little more than two decades later, have caused havoc across Europe.

As for Modette's qualifications I have no reason to doubt her claim, noting from her previous posts a well regulated and reasoned response, I have read nothing that would lead me to doubt her.

By the way which University did you attend?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:59 PM

Knowledge, or at least understanding, doesn't always move on,

In history, as in all fields, knowledge and understanding advances.
Knowledge is gained, never lost.
Are you seriously claiming that all the historians have gone wrong and the Mudcat Comrades alone hold the truth of history?!

DtG, we have not examined every swan, but if there was a red one somewhere, we would have heard.

I only claim that the history books agree my points.
I read them. That is how I know.

The Comrades have failed to find anything written for at least twenty years that disagrees.
How could they? There is nothing.

They still think that the history books are wrong and they are right.
Only conceited, ignorant fools could possibly believe that.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:52 PM

Oh NOT TRUE GUEST - 14 Dec 15 - 03:42 PM the RBL Festival of Remembrance on the Saturday in the Royal Albert Hall and the Service of Remembrance on the following Sunday at the Cenotaph are strictly national acts of commemoration, stated so quite clearly earlier on in the thread.

At no point at all in either is war glorified or celebrated - no point at all in asking a nameless one to come up with any examples of this so-called "Jingoism" - they seem to be entirely bereft of answers when pushed for details.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:45 PM

GUEST, Modette and GUEST, Dave have gone awfully quiet haven't they.

By the way Raggy how do you know that GUEST, Modette didn't get her Doctorate out of a Cornflakes Packet?

Not really interested on your take on it or Lofty's I am waiting to hear from Modette herself.

GUEST, Dave on the other hand has just been caught out in a lie. So I expect that it will take him a little bit longer via the usual flurry of anonymous GUEST posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:42 PM

It isn't even as if Teribus has a point regarding the subject of the thread.

His mate Keith has just been shown to be incompetent when it comes to even defining history.

I'm beginning to enjoy this.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:39 PM

Ah but Lofty when it comes to the subject of the First World War I know more than most about it on this forum ask your pal Raggy - he's the one who told me that.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:37 PM

GUEST,Raggytash - 14 Dec 15 - 03:01 PM

"and resulted in irreparable damage being done to the German Army"

Never, ever I have read such a utterly stupid, absolutely inane and totally naïve comment placed on ANY thread on Mudcat.

Is that the same irreparable damage that allowed the German forces just two decades later to sweep across Europe.



What a supremely idiotic remark.

Talking of supremacy in idiotic remarks Raggy could you tell me what the f**k the German Army of 1916 has to do with the German Army that invaded the low countries and France in 1940?? Were they the same Army? By Christ they must have been owed some back pay.

I would say that when it comes to demonstrating what a complete and utter fuckwit you are nobody can surpass youself, you just jump right in at every opportunity, you have both feet firmly clenched in your mouth for so much of the time one wonders what you use to walk on.

But I will continue with your education you complete and utter clown - the German Army of 1940 DID sweep across Europe because unlike Moltke in 1914 they did not modify the Schlieffen Plan in 1940 they came through both the Netherlands and Belgium [As Schlieffen originally planned it] and when they came they employed the same tactics as were INVENTED and developed by the British Army of 1918 - the Army commanded by Sir Douglas Haig.

By Christ are you really that thick - arguing with you lot is like "shooting-fish-in-a-barrel". Not one single one of you has even the foggiest clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:35 PM

Yep, same person, Raggy, just different rules. Like I keep saying, no one can ever win because no one knows the rules. They make them up as they go along to suit the situation. Fortunately, we can all do the same ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:17 PM

"Where did your Doctorate come from - A Cornflakes packet?
Perhaps you subscribe to the Alan Clark school of history where you just "Make Up Shit" in order to provoke controversy in order to turn a quick profit"


Is this from the same person who objects to personal abuse??


You really couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:16 PM

GUEST,Dave - 14 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM

Teribus,

First, I did not at any time "pull up" or accuse Raggytash of abuse, I noted that the thread was started by him and the title chosen by him, but that title is not abuse."

Really GUEST Dave?? Care to explain this exchange then:

24th post to this thread and the first example of name calling on the thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash - PM
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 03:12 PM

A rather bold statement professor, could you provide us with some evidence to substantiate your claim.

26th post to this thread:
Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave - PM
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM

Keith is of course right, I don't always agree with everything he says but I find the instant aggression of some posters on here towards him a bit disturbing.

Don't tell me – different GUEST; Dave RIGHT???

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:14 PM

Modette,

That statement is up there with:

"absolute proof is a requirement in Science."

Same author, same thread, 3 days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:06 PM

"'History is based on hard facts and knowledge.'

As someone with an actual Doctorate in the subject, I find that to be one of the most depressing statements I've ever read on this site.'"

And why would that be GUEST Modette? Was the First World War a fact or not - or was it all just imagined? Does knowledge have no place in the make up, study and research of any given period in history? Where did your Doctorate come from - A Cornflakes packet?

Perhaps you subscribe to the Alan Clark school of history where you just "Make Up Shit" in order to provoke controversy in order to turn a quick profit.

Floors yours I am all ears, dying to hear what you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM

Teribus,

First, I did not at any time "pull up" or accuse Raggytash of abuse, I noted that the thread was started by him and the title chosen by him, but that title is not abuse.

Second, I know that knowledge doesn't always move on because I am an actual researcher in a different subject entirely, I could give you examples but there isn't any point (though I have had a debate with Keith on another thread about some). I have no reason to doubt that the same occurs in research in history.

Third, amazingly and appallingly you have described the Somme as a tactical victory. At a cost of well over a million killed or maimed, over 400,000 in the British Army alone. What kind of tactical victory is that?

Similar numbers died at Passchendaele and we have already seen that we could have had a negotiated peace before that.

Finally you absolve Lloyd George of responsibility by saying that the House of Commons voted to declare war on Belgium. Lloyd George was a member of the House of Commons when it did so. And he seems to have voted for the war. Whatever else Haig did he didn't have that on his conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:01 PM

"and resulted in irreparable damage being done to the German Army"

Never, ever I have read such a utterly stupid, absolutely inane and totally naïve comment placed on ANY thread on Mudcat.

Is that the same irreparable damage that allowed the German forces just two decades later to sweep across Europe.



What a supremely idiotic remark.


(wait for the back-tracking and half hearted justifications)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 01:04 PM

"It's bad enough sanitising the awful role the British military had in countless deaths and the slur on the memory of the fallen that Teribus and Keith A of Hertford insist on spouting, but to keep attacking those of us who merely wished to discuss the influence of jingoism on the act of commemoration, well you'd think they'd have some common decency?"

Who was it that wished to discuss the influence of jingoism on the act of commemoration? I think a bunch of idiots got confused and mixed up the RBL Festival of Remembrance with the Service of Remembrance. I think a bunch of idiots posted and incorrectly and inaccurately proclaimed that the RBL Festival of Remembrance was a CofE thing. I think it was a bunch of ignorant ill-informed idiots who when their errors were pointed out to them resorted to name calling.

Take a wee turn back down the thread GHOST you will find that I am right in stating the above.

Oh Dear, How Sad; Never Mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:50 PM

GUEST,dave - 14 Dec 15 - 12:14 PM He any different from GUEST Dave??

"Knowledge, or at least understanding, doesn't always move on, sometimes things which were quite well understood are clouded by more recent, flawed, research, or, by flawed opinions based upon preconceptions and political positions."

Examples of this please? Could be that GUEST,dave was the nameless one who considered that any historical theory was cyclical but who when asked could provide no such examples - This will undoubtedly result in no examples to prove this theory coming forward. But a few questions for dave:

1: What flawed research? Do you dispute that today there are far wider and more comprehensive research material available to the historian interested in the period. An Historians conclusions are drawn from his research so what preconceptions and political positions are you referring to - any examples of these? I would offer up Alan Clark and his book "The Donkeys", written as the 50th anniversay of the start of the Great War was approaching and written by his own admission to earn him a few quid (He also admitted to making up "The Lion's led by Donkeys" Quote)


2: "As to whether Haig or Lloyd George was the more culpable for the disaster of the Somme, well thats a futile argument between a pot and a kettle."

Only thing wrong there dave, if you look at the entirety of the Somme campaign it was without any shadow of a doubt a strategic defeat for the Germans and a tactical victory for the Entente Powers. It forced a general German retreat to the Hindenburg Line, Falkenhayn the German Commander on the Western Front was dismissed and resulted in irreparable damage being done to the German Army. It was the first major campaign fought by Great Britain's first citizen Army and from it they went from strength to strength. Lloyd George and the British Government were undoubtedly culpable - it was they who put Haig and the British Armies in Europe under French command (Joffre), it was they who backed Joffre's insistence that the attack be made on the Somme, thereby over-ruling Haig's preferred location.

"Though LLoyd George was in part responsible for the entry of Britain into the war in the first place."

The vote to declare war on Germany following the German invasion of Belgium was, I believe, taken by the House of Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:41 PM

Teribums. your literal pedantic crap is tiresome Yet you still carry on responding. Amazing!

Guest, 12:28. It's no insult. Honest! Teribums could not insult me if he swallowed a dictionary of insults washed down with a draught of disdain. He hasn't got the imagination. Lofty had an excellent singing voice. Sergeant Major Shoutalot had nothing but bluster and was made to look a fool at every opportunity. Pretty much like here :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:35 PM

... when your flush IS ....

I reckon Gary Sheffield wrote the autocorrect algorithm for my iPhone.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:28 PM

When you have nothing left and your flush us well and truly busted, you revert to abuse.

Hence the "Lofty" insult at Dave the Gnome. It's bad enough sanitising the awful role the British military had in countless deaths and the slur on the memory of the fallen that Teribus and Keith A of Hertford insist on spouting, but to keep attacking those of us who merely wished to discuss the influence of jingoism on the act of commemoration, well you'd think they'd have some common decency?

Apparently not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:28 PM

Dave the Gnome - 14 Dec 15 - 11:00 AM

Teribums [QED] I think if anyone was to look back through the thread they would see who is doing most of the the abusing."

Lofty if anyone was to look back through THIS thread they would find that it was your pal Raggytash who started the abusing and GUEST Dave who pulled him up on it - but there again Lofty when did you ever let facts get in the way of YOUR narrative?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,dave
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:14 PM

Knowledge, or at least understanding, doesn't always move on, sometimes things which were quite well understood are clouded by more recent, flawed, research, or, by flawed opinions based upon preconceptions and political positions. Or maybe even by personal self-justification. As to whether Haig or Lloyd George was the more culpable for the disaster of the Somme, well thats a futile argument between a pot and a kettle. Though LLoyd George was in part responsible for the entry of Britain into the war in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:08 PM

Lofty when you've got anything even remotely germane to this thread to contribute give me a nudge - so far you are prattling on about nothing. Leave it to the grown ups to understand a comment when it is made and the context in which that comment is made - your literal pedantic crap is tiresome, but as you seem to have to indulge in it carry on dancing on the head of your pin.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:00 PM

"whether something was written 20, 50 or 100 years ago has no bearing on its validity."

Really GUEST Dave??

So someone let's call him David Lloyd George decides to write a book in which he firmly attaches blame on an individual who having recently died is in no position to defend his good name. In this book David Lloyd George places the blame for the deaths of soldiers on this individual on account of him choosing the battlefield, the timing of the battle and for his continuation of the battle, David Lloyd George does this knowing that those facts will be covered by government restrictions until 50, 60, 70 or even 100 years have elapsed, David Lloyd George writes these things knowing full well that it was he, David Lloyd George, who put Great Britain's armies under the command and disposal of French Generals, that it was he David Lloyd George, who insiusted that in 1916 the attacks had to be made on the Somme instead of in Flanders where Haig wanted to attack and vice versa in 1917 when David Lloyd George insisted that the attacks should be made in Flanders when Haig wanted the attack to be launched on the Somme where conditions best suited the tanks. It was David Lloyd George who knew full well it would years after his death that his guilt and culpability in the events relating to the Somme and Passchendaele would come to light and become public knowledge.

Of course works written 20, 50, 70 years ago once proven to be based on incorrect knowledge or understanding are no longer relevant - only a complete and utter idiot would suggest otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

just how much of what has been written in the last 20 years have you read?

The Professor? Virtually none, and if you care to go thru the tedium of searching this and other similar threads, he's admitted as much several times.

Dave, I do not know or care how much stuff has been written, just that none of it contradicts my expressed views.

See? The Professor knows all without the bother of having to read.

Q.E.D. 2nd.