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NYC firefighters protest
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: CarolC Date: 07 Nov 01 - 07:12 PM Continuation of this discussion is here. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Nov 01 - 06:32 PM "McGrath asks why the firefighters weren't brought in on the decisionmaking about the number of NYFD personnel on site at Ground Zero. I don't know; perhaps legally they didn't have to be." What "legal" got to do with it for Christ's sake?
It would indeed have been "more sensitive" to ask their advice and take it too.But I'd put it rather it would have been less crassly insensitive if they'd done that.
Twenty three police officers were killed in the Towers. That was awful. But 343 firefighters died there. No, numbers aren't that important in themselves. One death is enough and too many. But it's hardly surprising that the focus should be on that army of dead firefighters. Day in day out tales about the police fill the TV. Just for once the focus is on the people who risk their lives every day to fight fires, because on one terrible day 343 of them died trying to save other people - and now there are complaints about how they are hogging the attention.
"I can't imagine how it must affect the NYC police officers when they see this, particularly when the mayor of the city wears his NYFD hat for photo ops." I think I know how I'd feel. It'd make me proud, because they'd be my comrades, part of the same family. Very often quite literally so. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: SharonA Date: 07 Nov 01 - 02:01 PM GUEST says: "...the creating of a hierarchy of heroes... seems to be what is happening to a certain extent." Absolutely. It's not just in the songwriting, either. The wearing of NYFD logos on hats and clothing by the public has reached the status of a fashion statement: clothing designers are coming out with NYFD lines. I can't imagine how it must affect the NYC police officers when they see this, particularly when the mayor of the city wears his NYFD hat for photo ops. I have to think that all this is contributing to the bad feeling between the two departments right now. McGrath asks why the firefighters weren't brought in on the decisionmaking about the number of NYFD personnel on site at Ground Zero. I don't know; perhaps legally they didn't have to be. If that's the case, it certainly would've been more sensitive to include the NYFD, and it would've been better P.R. As it is, the police are now being seen by the public as the bad guys (so what else is new? Police officers have always had a thankless job) instead of getting the glory, and sympathy, that they deserve for their heroic acts alongside the firefighters. (BTW, I have no relatives who are either firefighters or cops. My niece is an EMT, though!) |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:15 PM SharonA--I agree with you about the cops, and the other unsung heroes and heroines who likely saved lives, not necessarily at the cost of their own, whom we may never know of because they are being drowned out by those singing in the chorus for the firefighters. I hate that sort of game--the creating of a hierarchy of heroes, but that seems to be what is happening to a certain extent. As to the use of the word "minor" as in tiff, thanks for clarifying. I was using the word in the context of the public relations wars, not the altercation on the street between the handful of firefighters and cops, which I agree, was minor. As to the political fall-out from it, hard to say this far from NYC. Maybe someone who is closer to it on a daily basis can comment. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: SharonA Date: 07 Nov 01 - 12:28 PM Sorry, I should have said that the NYC police are somehow considered to be less heroic. Personally, I do think they're heroes as well. But, again, who's singing "The Ballad of the 9/11 Cops"? |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: SharonA Date: 07 Nov 01 - 12:15 PM This morning, on ABC's "Good Morning America" there was a short interview with Bernadine Healy, in which she took the position that donations to the American Red Cross were never intended to be earmarked specifically for the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks and their families. The interviewer (Diane Sawyer) showed a donation form for the terrorist victims in which the small print at the bottom says the funds were to go toward victims of this and other disasters. Healy denied that there was anything deceptive about that. She deflected questions about the donaters' dissatisfaction wih the way their money is being handled, and repeatedly emphasized that the Red Cross's purpose in using the money accumulated is to be ready for the next disaster or attack. So Healy doesn't seem to be the 9/11 victims' advocate after all. As far as the NYC firefighters' status as folk heroes is concerned, I feel I must say this: immediately after the WTC collapse, there were complaints from some survivors that the firemen going up the stairs of the towers were blocking the way of the people coming down, which may have prevented more from escaping, but those sound bites were very quickly squelched in favor of the folk-hero rhetoric. There's no question that people who run into a burning building are brave and heroic, but I do hope that all firefighters take a lesson from this disaster and formulate better evacuation-and-rescue plans in the event of a skyscraper fire, so that fewer lives will be lost if such a catastrophe occurs in the future. GUEST: When I said that the NYC firefighter protest turned into a "minor tiff", I meant that it wasn't a riot. No one was killed or seriously injured. That's what I meant by "minor". DougR used the term, too. Yes, the donnybrook is indicative of deeper problems between NYC firefighters and NYC police, and within the city government, and those problems should be addressed before there is a riot. But Friday's incident, in and of itself, was not an all-out brawl. BTW, I find it interesting that the NYC firefighters are considered heroes but the police, who also put their lives on the line and lost many that day, are somehow less heroic. Where's Tom Paxton's song about them? |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Tinker Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:24 PM |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:00 PM Nothing can really be considered a "minor" tiff in regards to the NY firefighters right now. They are the biggest American folk heroes in DECADES. Combine that with the scandal breaking as to how the funds raised for victims' families is being disbursed, or not, and you have tremendous potential for hot heads prevailing. I think Americans are reaching a point where they are fed up with claims that the skies are safe, that the money raised for victims is being siphoned off by fat bureaucrats with entirely different agendas than victim assistance, that the displaced and unemployed workers are going to be screwed out of any assistance by the Congress and the White House in favor of more corporate welfare schemes to Dumbya's good buddies, etc etc etc People are really beginning to feel financial pain, and the tolerance level for incompetent "security" protection of the flying public despite long delays, hassles, and harrassment while flying is about to erupt into some major public outcries. Of course, by then Dumbya's cronies will already have made off with all the taxpayers money they can truck out of the Treasury while nobody is looking--oops! I mean economic stimulus packages, of course. Like I said earlier, now that the unity facade is crumbling, we're beginning to see who we *really* are as a nation, and what the priorities are going to be for Our President for the next three years. And something tells me, it won't be a pretty sight here, or in many places in the world where Dumbya will run off playing Texas cowboy games. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:13 PM Still agreeing with DougR, right down the line - and now WhistleStop too. (Please note that this spirit of consensus is confined to this thread, and maybe doesn't extend as far as that bit about the Diamondbacks, whoever THEY are.*G*) |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 01 - 03:18 PM So why didn't they bring the firefighters in on the decisionmaking?
This wasn't just a bunch of hotheaded young lads - look at the people arrested - "senior firemen, including a captain, a retired captain, a fire marshall and a lieutenant". These were people who know a lot about dealing with disaster sites, and coping with traumatised survivors.
I'd like to believe it was all about safety and so forth. It seems to me more likely that saving money and getting ahead with redevelopment was probably more central.
If there's a clash of opinions here, I'd sooner trust the opinions of the firemen. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: SharonA Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:33 PM Oops! I don't know what I did to my attempted link to the Guardian article, but it seems to have wiped out the rest of my post! Here's what I'd tried to say then: On TV over the weekend, I saw a sound bite of a firefighter's union man, saying that the protest was supposed to consist of a peaceful march followed by a short service, after which the protesters were supposed to disperse. The man was lamenting the fact that some people in the crowd didn't follow the guidelines set down by the organizers of the protest. I also saw a video clip of the protest itself, where men were talking with one another in a level tone, and trying to calm each other down. Actually, cooler heads seem to have prevailed: out of hundreds of protesters, only 11 or 12 were arrested and, according to ABC News, these will be charged with misdemeanors. Tempers flared. it happens, under far less trying circumstances. But DougR is right: this was only a minor tiff. Major embarrassment, but minor tiff. I also agree with Whistle Stop about safety being a priority. In addition to the dangers involved in extricating bodies from the monumental amount of debris while heavy equipment is moving around the site, there is the fact that these bodies have been decomposing there for a couple of months now, so the possibility of the spread of disease must be considered. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:09 PM I agree with Whistle Stop. Moving all the grieving people to a place where they accept that there will be no recovery of the bodies is likely impossible in this situation. The safety of the living matters too, and construction worker's lives are at risk here too. Regardless of how the site will be used in future, the demolition and removal of debris has to happen. They've been pretty lucky with the weather so far, but winter is fast approaching. The weather will only make the demolition more dangerous. The city officials and managers at the site have to get non-essential personnel out of there, and right now, firefighters are non-essential. The Village Voice has an interesting article on the parade of celebrities making the rounds of the NYC fire houses, how overnight the firefighters became folk heros, etc. There are still large numbers of celebrity and politician and VIP sightseers coming to the WTC site, and that has to be slowing things down some too. I think they need to just close the site down and get on with demolition. After all, the Pentagon isn't open to tourist gawkers wanting a look at a bomb site. Enough is enough--it is time to move on. Dragging out the recovery phase indefinitely helps no one at this point, nearly two months after the fact. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Whistle Stop Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:54 AM It's unfortunate that this happened, and perhaps the transition could have been handled better. Still, at some level this was bound to happen. I used to work in search and rescue with the US Coast Guard, and as hard as it is to accept, if some don't survive there inevitably comes a time when the search ends, and the salvage operation begins. Grieving people don't like to accept this, but it's got to be that way. The first priority in any search and rescue/recovery operation is always to make sure nobody else is harmed; to do that, you have to control the area of the operation. I heard Giuliani say that the project (not the people) was getting out of control, and it's not hard to believe that he's right. The firefighters were and are true heroes, but they also were and are emotionally wracked people dealing with catastrophic loss. You can't just say that no restrictions will be placed on their numbers and participation. I'm sorry this happened, and I'm glad that the City is trying to handle it sensitively. But this is a big, complex, and still dangerous operation. Giuliani's job is to make sure it's in the right hands, and to give the people running it the ability to exercise control. Once the freshness of this fades a little, I think most of the firefighters (who also have to deal with public safety issues during dangerous operations) will probably understand that. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:53 AM I'm not too surprised. Whatever the police commissioner might have felt about wanting them jailed, no jury would have convicted and the attempt to take them to court would have been very costly politically.
Now the follow up I'd like to see would be would be for the city to back down on this. And, as Wanderer suggested, declare the place a war grave, so the dead could rest in peace there without another Tower of Babel being erected over their graves.
Having thousands upon thousand crowded on top of each other to work makes no kind of sense anymore anyway, with modern communications. Except to the likes of the terrorists - and of course the people who stand to make a profit from building on what should be a holy place, and pretending it's some kind of act of national defiance. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: RangerSteve Date: 06 Nov 01 - 10:02 AM Very little coverage was given to the follow-up story, but the eleven fire fighters were let go with no charges filed against them. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:23 AM Like I said, this will be the first of many bloody noses for Hizzoner The Mayor. This was about as badly handled as it gets. If they had given a date, after which time the operation went from rescue to recovery to demolition, I think it might have made a huge psychological difference for the firefighters at the site. If they had somehow ritualized the maximum number of firefighters and police allowed at the site as part of that, reducing the numbers gradually, it might have allowed for the recovery workers to walk away more gracefully, and save face. As it is, the situation is just very sad for the firefighters and their families. Everyone knew the day had to come when giving up hope of recovering more bodies would come, just as the day had to come when hope was abandoned that anyone would be found alive. But the callous way in which this has been handled speaks volumes about what sort of mayor and what sort of man Guiliani really is, IMO. As to the Red Cross, I have always heard nothing but venomous comments from the WWII generation about them. In the wake of 9/11 when everyone and their mother started throwing money at the RC, I heard more than a few people say they would never give a dime of their money to them, for just these very reasons being debated. I guess we are just beginning to see who we really are, now that the "unity" facade is crumbling. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Big Mick Date: 06 Nov 01 - 12:13 AM I think that you look for reason to act as an apologist for authority, Doug. The handling of the firefighter thing was completely off base. What the hell were they thinking?? These guys, who risked it all, saw their brothers and sisters die, did everything they could to save folks, were frustrated in their efforts, suffering from exhaustion and mentally on the verge of collapse, many ridden with survivors guilt.....and their only outlet was the cause of finding the bodies of the fallen. Along come people who should know better, with the mental health pro's they have available, and just say "Off you go lads, we'll get the rest of the with the backhoe..". What the hell did they think would happen. It is inexcusable. As far as the Red Cross goes.............yeah, now they rethink their position......now that someone has put a blowtorch to their ass. This is the same organization that doesn't want to be involved with other agencies because they don't want to be accountable for the amount of their dollars that are actually spent on services. I agree they have done some great things. But I have seen a lot of questionable practices over the years as well. What they showed here was their true colors. There is absolutely no justification for the use of those dollars for anything other than what they were intended for. Rethought their position, indeed. Mick |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST,Wanderer Date: 05 Nov 01 - 09:41 PM Ground Zero should be designated a war grave, not a building site that has to cleared so people can make money out of it. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 01 - 07:15 PM That link you posted there Sharon didn't work for me, but the one I posted above did. I don't begin to understand these things. Anyway I'll stick the article itself in here - if the American papers have down-played this story that's a shame. In fact it's something worse than a shame. I'm naive enough to be surprised even. The Guardian here gave nearly half a page to it.
Firefighters in Ground Zero clash We want to dig our pals out, say protesters
Audrey Gillan in New York Guardian - Saturday November 3, 2001
Eleven firefighters were arrested and five police officers were injured after a clash at the site of the destroyed World Trade Centre yesterday following a protest at the scaling down of the numbers of rescue workers searching for the remains of victims.
The firefighters broke down the security barriers surrounding the rubble of Ground Zero, punching police officers in their attempt to get to the site. They seized cranes from construction workers to use as podiums to address the crowd.
The arrests of senior firemen, including a captain, a retired captain, a fire marshall and a lieutenant, prompted New York's mayor Rudolph Giuliani to say that the firefighters were "out of control" and that they did not have the ability to contain themselves emotionally. Those in custody included three top union officials.
The city's police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, said he hoped the men involved in the fighting would be jailed. They would most likely be charged with assault, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct. He added that further investigation would lead to further arrests. "We didn't anticipate that they would pick up and flip barriers on top of cops or punch police officers," he said.
Hundreds of firefighters had gathered with their unions at the site where 343 firefighters and 23 police officers died, carrying banners saying: "Mayor Giuliani, let us bring our brothers home."
The firefighters had worked virtually non-stop at the scene since the towers collapsed. But a few days ago, Mr Giuliani said he wanted no more than 24 firefighters and 24 police officers at Ground Zero at any one time. Spotters would be used to look for bodies.
The firefighters said the cutting back would turn Ground Zero into a "full-time construction scoop-and-dump operation". Michael Carter, vice president of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, said: "That site, besides containing roughly 250 firefighter bodies, also contains many civilian bodies."
The group marched from the Ground Zero site to City Hall, where police in riot gear and officers on horseback stood by. Once there, the marchers observed a second moment of silence before singing God Bless America. There were no clashes with police there.
One union official said: "Our message has been delivered. If we come back here again, we'll come back with 5,000."
Firefighter Bob McGuire, whose nephew was among those missing, said remains had been loaded into trash bins. He denied speculation that firefighters wanted to stay at the site to get extra pay.
A spokesman for the Uniformed Firefighters Association said this week alone the bodies of 12 firefighters had been pulled from the wreckage.
At a press conference, Mayor Giuliani said that numbers of those working on the site had been cut because the "site had shrunk and there were too many people in the way". |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: SharonA Date: 05 Nov 01 - 05:51 PM Couldn't get McGrath's link to the Guardian article to work. I found it here: Firefighters in Ground Zero clash What we've been hearing here is that the New York City firefighters are upset because they want to be on the scene to find and remove the bodies of their brethren firefighters. Police and officials are claiming that it's dangerous to have so many individuals combing the site while heavy equipment is being used, and Giuliani has expressed concern for their safety, saying that they don't want to lose any lives in this recovery effort. I have not heard any US reports of recognizable human remains being put into dumpsters, as the Guardian article reports. (Ashes may be another story.) On TV over the weekend, I saw a sound bite of a firefighter's union man, saying that Friday's protest was supposed to consist of a peaceful march followed by a short service, after which the protesters were supposed to disperse. The man was lamenting the fact that some people in the crowd didn't follow the guidelines set down by the organizers of the protest. I also saw a video clip of the protest itself, where men were talking with one another in a level tone, and trying to calm each other down. Actually, cooler heads seem to have prevailed; out of hundreds of protesters, only 11 or 12 were arrested, and apparently they are being charged only with misdemeanors according to the ABC News website. Tempers flared. It happens, under far less trying circumstances. But DougR is right: this was only a minor tiff. Major embarrassment, but minor tiff. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST,Deda Date: 05 Nov 01 - 02:34 PM I heard a radio interview with a Red Cross rep over the w/end in which he allowed as how they have collected something like $500 million since 9/11, of which maybe $4 million has been distributed. That leaves $496M collecting interest for the Red Cross, and thousands of bereaved families still unable to pay their basic expenses. News flash: Greed is NOT Good. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Ferrara Date: 05 Nov 01 - 02:29 PM The Washington Post did say that the president of the Red Cross resigned because she was adamant about keeping the money separate and was overruled. It sounds as if the damned bureacrats are re-thinking their decision as they see what "bad publicity" it's giving the RC. McGrath, I hadn't heard of this incident about the firefighters and it makes me so sad. Money is still king. People are still people. Sigh.... I can understand the decision to stop searching, sort of.... but not the arrests or the thickheaded comment about the protesters "not controlling their emotions." Only relatively few people are born without eyesight, but there's an appallingly high proportion of us with little or no emotional insight. Makes sense, I guess: Someone with no empathy can comfortably knock the dickens out of someone with empathy and take all their possessions, so natural selection inevitably favors insensitivity. Keep protesting though. It does and has made a difference. It is a never ending fight. (See above.) But where would we be without the conscientious protesters of earlier years? Still a slave holding culture, perhaps.... Rita |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: SharonA Date: 05 Nov 01 - 02:24 PM Here's an article about recently-resigned American Red Cross President Bernadine Healy: ABC News article about Healy's resignation Here's a short clip from the Associated Press about the firefighters: NYC Fire and Police Officials Deny Scaling WTC Efforts N E W Y O R K, Nov. 5 — New York City police and fire officials are denying accusations they're scaling back efforts to recover victims' remains at the World Trade Center. Union officials say a change in policy — limiting the number of fire and police workers at the site — is essentially turning the recovery effort into a construction zone. But Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen calls the charges "unfair and dishonest." Hundreds of firefighters protested the policy change Friday, leading to scuffles with police. More than a dozen firefighters were arrested. Of the 343 firefighters lost in the Trade Center attack, more than 200 are still buried in the rubble. —The Associated Press |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: DougR Date: 05 Nov 01 - 12:03 AM Oops! Fionn: we agree on something??!!! The Diamondbacks win the World Series AND we agree on something on the same day? Will wonders never cease? :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: DougR Date: 05 Nov 01 - 12:02 AM I agree, Sinsull, that the funds raised specifically for the families who lost loved ones in the tragedy should receive every single dime of the money. I think that is what the deposed President had in mind when she set up the separate fund. I fault the board of directors who ruled that the funds had to be comingled with other Red Cross monies. None of that money should be spent on infrastructure for the Red Cross. On Bill O'Reilly's program last week a representative of the ARC appeared and O'Reilly, who has been ragging the RC for weeks about getting relief to the survivors. He questioned him pretty well, and, according to the representative, the RC has re-evaluated it's decision to spend money on infrastructure and the money will go to survivors. That's the latest I know about it. I know the RC has recieved considerable criticism over the years, but I think the good it has done world-wide exceeds the bad. Those that only see a half-empty glass will not agree with me, I'm sure. DougR |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:59 PM The Red Cross is a self serving. Always has beenin my memory. But their madate has always been emergency relief. If you gave them money thinking it would go to the families, you were mistaken or duped. I've had no respect for the Red Cross since they screwed up the blood supply in Canada, then lied and blamed scapegoats to cover their tracks. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST,SINSULL, no cookie Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:18 PM I have seen young, arrogant, handsome young firefighters turn into old men in a matter of weeks. The emotional toll is visible on their faces. Hopefully, their union is seeing to it that they get the psychological help that they need to go on. Anyone who has suffered a loss knows that first comes disbelief then anger, grief, etc. and not necessarily in that order. Some of these men are just coming to terms with the loss. That frustration and anger is going to be vented somewhere. These men have have been lauded as heroes, macho-men. Yet they have been unable to do the one thing they all swore would be done - the recovery of their brothers' bodies. Big surprise - their emotions are out of control. Re: undistributed funds. Every night the local news interviews families who lost a father, brother, mother, etc. in the World Trade Center. All of them claim that they have been unable to get the forms needed to apply for all this money. Then the Red Cross announces that they are using a substantial chunk of the Freedom Fund to upgrade their own facilities - equipment? salaries? all very vague and there has been an uproar. People donated money specifically for the families of victims. They don't want to hear that everyone including the families of victims will benefit from a bigger and better Red Cross. Significantly, the Red Cross immediately shut down the Freedom Fund and the spokesperson (president?) who was in our faces at every commercial break for the past month resigned. Shame on them! |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: kendall Date: 04 Nov 01 - 09:02 PM It's always a mistake to take a poke at a cop. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:57 PM It's a Mudcat first *G* Yep, I'm with DougR 100 per cent. Just a point of detail, but I heard Guiliani use that "out of control" phrase and he was referring to the clean-up operation, not the firefighters. To the guest who posted about fixing a date for the switch from "rescue operation" to "demolition": that switch happened weeks ago, and is not the issue here. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: DougR Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:53 PM Only a minor tiff, McGrath, just a bit of a tiff. probably a holdover from the days Greg reports about. Not earthshaking at all. DougR |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Greg F. Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:23 PM Come now, McGrath. Money has ALWAYS been king, despite the talk. The 11th September could do nothing to change that. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:06 PM It wasn't that big of a deal.
Sounds like a fairly big deal to me. Not a good deal though.
Hundreds of firefighters had gathered with their unions at the site where 343 firefighters and 23 police officers died, carrying banners saying: "Mayor Giuliani, let us bring our brothers home." The firefighters had worked virtually non-stop at the scene since the towers collapsed. But a few days ago, Mr Giuliani said he wanted no more than 24 firefighters and 24 police officers at Ground Zero at any one time. Spotters would be used to look for bodies. The firefighters said the cutting back would turn Ground Zero into a "full-time construction scoop-and-dump operation". Michael Carter, vice president of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, said: "That site, besides containing roughly 250 firefighter bodies, also contains many civilian bodies." But doing the job on a scoop and dump basis, regardless of what and who is scooped and dumped saves money. And evidently, in spite of all that talk about nothing being the same after September 11, money is king.
And of course the firefighters "did not have the ability to contain themselves emotionally". I suppose that was why so many of them died on the 11th climbing to their death.
Not such a big deal indeed. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 01 - 06:28 PM On Fox News, DougR? Well, now your posts make perfect sense. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: Greg F. Date: 04 Nov 01 - 06:21 PM Reminds me of the Good Old Days of New York City fire fighting in the mid-to-late late 19th C., when two (or more) rival fire companies (they were private organizations at the time) would respond to the same blaze, and a brawl would ensue over which company had the "right" to fight the fire- while the building in question burned to the ground. Truth! See: Asbury, Ye Old Fire Laddies NY 1930 & many other works. Best, Greg. |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: DougR Date: 04 Nov 01 - 05:27 PM Aw come on guys! It wasn't that big of a deal. And where you got the idea the Red Cross is not giving out money, Guest, I have no idea! I heard a representative of the National Red Cross on Fox News a couple of nights ago and they have given away millions of dollars. It takes time, you know, to give out money intelligently Guest. DougR |
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Subject: RE: NYC firefighters protest From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 01 - 04:47 PM I really thought the whole incident to be a very, very sad thing. I do think there should have been a date set, after which the rescue operation became a demolition operation, for the sake of the rescue workers who's job it was to recover the bodies. Had a date far enough out (say, a month after the attack) been set, the rescue workers would have been able to emotionally prepare themselves for this time, when it becomes a demolition operation, and everyone accept that most the bodies would never be recovered. The first of what will likely be many bloody noses for Guiliani, and other authorities involved. The much greater sinning going on here, IMO, is the fact that none of the $1 billion raised for victims' families has gotten to them, and as we are now beginning to find out, there is an excellent chance the majority of the money raised never will reach those it was intended for. The Red Cross came out last week and practically said as much (in their bureaucratic doublespeak, that is). The handling of all this, from the Twin Towers to Afghanistan, just keeps looking worse and worse. My heart goes out to the firefighters, but not as much as it goes out to the *families* of the firefighters, who must have been absolutely horrified to see the whole sorry mess take place at all. Couldn't the firefighters be of more use to firefighters' families lost in the attack by advocating for them to get some of the money raised on their behalf, rather than getting in fist fights with the police who have suffered mightily from all this trauma too? |
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Subject: NYC firefighters protest From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Nov 01 - 01:18 PM The NYC firefighters might quite rightly have been briefly acclaimed as heroes after September 11th - but it seems it doesn't take long before once again it's "Get back in line you bums."
And here is a quote from that report: Eleven firefighters were arrested and five police officers were injured after a clash at the site of the destroyed World Trade Centre yesterday following a protest at the scaling down of the numbers of rescue workers searching for the remains of victims...
The arrests of senior firemen, including a captain, a retired captain, a fire marshall and a lieutenant, prompted New York's mayor Rudolph Giuliani to say that the firefighters were "out of control" and that they did not have the ability to contain themselves emotionally. Those in custody included three top union officials...
The city's police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, said he hoped the men involved in the fighting would be jailed.
I'd hope there wouldn't be a jury in New York - indeed anywhere on the planet - that would convict, even if the judge were to tell them they had no choice but to do so,
Here's a link to a thread lining to some of the songs that have come out about them, in case we need reminding. And here are some quotes from them: So tell all your children to tell all their children
And
Tell me now, are these your heroes?
And again
Now every time I try to sleep, I'm haunted by the sound
But of course, "they did not have the ability to contain themselves emotionally" - and "The city's police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, said he hoped the men involved in the fighting would be jailed."
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