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BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Lighter Date: 19 Sep 14 - 11:00 AM True, Pete, but it remains no more than a human interpretation projected onto a story that has every hallmark of being a fable in itself. As a persuasive explanation for the amazing amount of horror and evil in the world, not all of it man-made by any means, it leaves many of us rather cold. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 19 Sep 14 - 12:42 PM pete, glancing back through recent posts, I was struck by the following phrase in one of yours: "MORE EVOLUTIONARY PROPAGANDA". What is 'evolutionary propaganda'? Who, exactly, is responsible for 'evolutionary propaganda'? The word 'propaganda' implies that there are people out there with an agenda who wish to recruit others to their way of thinking; again, who are these people? Are they politicians, academics or servants of the Anti-Christ or the Devil? I suspect that you really do think that there's some sort of vast conspiracy out there, don't you? Are there really thousands of academics, in hundreds of universities throughout the world, spending their lives and vast sums of public and private money on a secret project to discredit the stories in an old book? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Greg F. Date: 19 Sep 14 - 12:45 PM but that formulation came from what was already in the bible. Can you render that statement into comprehensible English, pete? Is that kinda like Hollywood movies "based on a true story"? Or is it more like John Darby's 19th Century invention of "The Rapture"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 19 Sep 14 - 01:03 PM Pete... 2 days ago you said:" but my job is not to defend God ,where I don't know all the answers, but proclaim his message" I was once told essentially that by Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked at my door. We had a polite but intense discussion as they read me more Bible verses. (They couldn't seem to get the point that I did not accept the message in those verses because I did not accept the authority of the Bible.) The discussion ended when I finally explained that even IF their claims, 'proclaiming his message' were true, I would not wish to live eternally in a heaven run by a deity whose rules were as they said. Condemning all following generations for Adam's Fall and various other unreasonable ideas just didn't please me. The JWs were startled and unable to deal with an answer like that... but several days later, an older elder with more experience came by to try to 'clear things up'. He... ummmm... read me MORE bible verses. I explained once more that I didn't accept the bible's authority. He left, and I haven't seen them since. I think I'm on a list with the heading "Hopeless". Their church is only a 5 minute walk from my house. I have toyed with the idea of stopping by and asking if such a list exists... but..... nawww.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 19 Sep 14 - 01:07 PM Oh, by the way... not long after, a pair of LDS (Mormons) knocked. I saw their suits and book and assumed they were JWs again, and said so.... wow... you talk about offended! They have never been back again either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Sep 14 - 01:32 PM It seems the the Archbishop of Canterbury and I have a lot in common, in that neither of us is certain as to whether God exists or not. Yet he's the archbishop and I'm an atheist. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Sep 14 - 01:33 PM the the minus the |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Musket Date: 19 Sep 14 - 03:12 PM Some people ask Jehovas Witnesses what their individual number is. Others ask them that if their God wanted them to follow him, he would get in touch direct rather than send door to door sales staff. Nothing beats shouting Fuck Off! loud enough for the neighbours to hear and slamming the door, especially as some try to keep their hands in the way. (Considering our cottage stands on its own, it helps to have a big mouth with which to let the neighbours know. I think of it as community service.) What is interesting is that I have never seen a door to door God botherer think that a sign saying no hawkers or unsolicited callers applies to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Greg F. Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:01 PM but I guess that is where faith comes in, and if nothing else it gives the opportunity to express kindness, care, and active love for others. All of which can be, and regularly are, expressed WITHOUT "faith", pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Jack Blandiver Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:18 PM Mostly, I'd say. Kindness, care, and active love for others have evolved as integral to our humanity, unlike religion, which, however so prevalent, is nevertheless optional. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Lighter Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:22 PM > I would not wish to live eternally in a heaven run by a deity whose rules were as they said. Thomas Nagel said something similar in "What Does It All Mean?" (1987), one of the best philosophy books under 125 pages ever written for the astute but average Joe. However, I don't think Nagel went so far as to suggest he'd reject Grace and Forgiveness if they were directly and unmistakably offered. Your position seems more, um, Miltonic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 19 Sep 14 - 08:05 PM Miltonic? I guess so... but I 'invented' the idea before hearing anyone else express it that way. Maybe 'developed' the idea over time is a better way to put it. --------------------- "Nothing beats shouting Fuck Off! ".. Oh sure it does... for me anyway. They get the loud rejection often enough- they are even taught to 'roll with the punches', but careful, reasoned argument and discussion seems to get to them. I much prefer to plant a tiny bit of doubt & confusion as I explain alternatives to blind acceptance. Whether it works or not, it's good practice for me. I am not interested in just being 'offensive'. They are free to tell me their position... I am free to explain mine. (I spent 20-30 minutes talking to 2 young ladies one evening in the St. Louis, Missouri airport. [I warned them before we began]...They didn't seem to have ever heard a quiet, polite counter-argument before. Maybe they just went home and learned 'standard replies', but they certainly listened as I allowed how I liked being a skeptic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 20 Sep 14 - 11:50 AM pete! Are you there? pete! Did you read my post about the absurdity of the phrase "evolutionary propaganda"? I don't seem to have had a response from you on that one ... pete ... ? Anyway, on the bus the other day I was thinking idly about why anyone would want to propagandise the findings of evolutionary biologists when suddenly a blindingly obvious thought struck me! Evolutionary biologists have nothing to gain from propaganda - but creationists do! Just think of all those hell-fire preachers and fundamentalist zealots in the churches and on the lecture circuits of the Deep South and the Mid-west (and probably Essex, Gloucestershire, Northumberland etc., etc. too). They're probably all making a 'nice little earner' and have lots of power and influence over their (gullible, pious) flocks too. But there's a huge and unavoidable cloud on the horizon: the findings of modern science. That science makes it obvious that the Bible is just an old book full of myths and none of it is literally true - as they've been preaching for ages. So they pump out loads of pseudo-scientific nonsense about evolutionary biology being 'wrong' and all evolutionary biologists being wicked deceivers. All of the stuff that you parrot is propaganda in my book, pete! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Greg F. Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:01 PM They are free to tell me their position... I am free to explain mine. To what end? I'm surprised you don't have better and/or more productive ways to waste your time, Bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:02 PM Not that my opinion matters, but I have found that the best approach to JW's is a polite "No thank you." and if they return, "Please do not come back." Carol tried to engage them. But that makes them think that they have a chance to convert you. Mormons don't come here. If they did, I would ask them "how do I get my own planet?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:20 PM Shimrod... it is indeed propaganda, but very few of the serious propangandists understand and admit what they are doing. Emotionally and psychologically, they **believe**. Whether it is because of generations of being raised with the 'fear of God' hovering over them, or being converted as adults by something like "Pascals Wager" (assuming that believing is the safest bet), their defense begins (as Pete admits) with belief... and therefore they MUST accept some degree of logical fallacy in order to remain faithful. It is just fascinating (to me anyway) that part of being human includes the ability to deny the obvious and accept the incredible. Fake moon landings, flat earth, ghosts, Tarot cards, astrology, phrenology, elves, reincarnation, and a host of 'interesting' superstitions are all an aspect of having a brain that can conceive of such things. It is, frankly, much more 'work' to sort thru the odd claims and keep a genuinely open mind. It is much easier to just nod and adopt a few cultural variants of obvious historical meanderings.... even among some of the supposedly most 'intelligent'. Intelligence can be used to construct clever, convoluted defenses of non-scientific concepts. I debate Pete and others... I also try as best I can to 'see' what is at work in their world that sends them in certain directions.... and some of those directions have positive aspects, no matter what we feel about their basis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:58 PM I enjoy debating intelligent people of faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Greg F. Date: 20 Sep 14 - 01:19 PM are all an aspect of having a brain that can conceive of such things Or, rather, an aspect of having no real brains at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 20 Sep 14 - 01:26 PM Oh, don't be silly, Greg.... .wait...never mind, you can no more avoid that sort of remark than Pete can help believing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars Date: 20 Sep 14 - 03:50 PM "....deny the obvious , and accept the incredible" said bill. Can you really not see, that something from nothing via no one falls neatly into that description !? But from your earlier post, I am not really surprised. You are not about to bow before deity, even were you persuaded intellectually . Sad about it though. Shimrod, some or all of your suggested propagandists , but not all aware that they are so. And there's a lot of well paid jobs.....probably much more than most clerics earn.....that might just sway reasoning. But I mainly use that term in terms of contrast. Instead of presenting evidence for their dogma, it is just presented as fact. These posts, and probably mostly yours, shimrod,, are perfect examples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Jack Blandiver Date: 20 Sep 14 - 05:19 PM We were accosted by two Christians on our way back to the car in Manchester earlier; we politely ignored them but when they began hailing after us to 'Have a nice day!' with patronising cheer, I turned round and told them with suitable jubilation to go fuck themselves. I'd make it unlawful for religious people to preach on the streets much less trouble innocent passers-by with their noxious delusions. As Christ himself said : 'Be passers-by.' (Gospel of Thomas, 42). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 20 Sep 14 - 06:47 PM "Can you really not see, that something from nothing via no one falls neatly into that description !?" No, because it's an hypothesis based on an analogy. Now where's the evidence to support your hypothesis, pete? All of the evidence, so far, suggests (something like) expansion of a point source of infinite density at some point in the distant past. On the other hand, there's absolutely no evidence for a big beardy bloke in the sky creating everything. Just because you can't imagine something, doesn't make it wrong and scientific conclusions are drawn from evidence - not belief or faith (i.e. the fervent and unquestioning belief in something invisible for which there's no evidence). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:17 PM Same concern as Shimrod.. "Can you really not see, that something from nothing via no one falls neatly into that description !?" Can YOU not see that I just don't concern myself with a conundrum that we have no way to answer? And can you not see that IF I accepted that 'something' required a All your belief does is push the question back one step. Granted, it makes a good story, but it requires all sorts of unproven assumptions about existence... and why a god would care... and the serious question of how a few old manuscripts got that story! It is you, Pete(and of course, many others), who asserts that it all happened as the Christian bible seems to state..... I just don't make any assumptions, so I don't have to defend anything. (well, I do assert things about valid logic & such, but that doesn't require metaphysics.) (And Pete... just curious...is that really you? why suddenly capitalization & punctuation? You used to not capitalize much except for 'God'. This does make reading easier.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:30 PM There is a troll afoot. Quite easy to recognise, guys. Don't make twats of yourselves by responding to not Pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Musket Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:35 PM Intelligent people of faith. Mmm. Have to think about that one. There are intelligent people abound and many have a form of faith but trying to reason it with people who don't share the delusion is never going to get them anywhere so why try! Which just leaves us with those not quite so intelligent so maybe "fuck off" saves time for both sides after all. I just find the arrogance of assuming I wish to waste good arse scratching time discussing their hobby to be on a level with those who think I have been missold credit card insurance. (I asked one who rang if she was a girl? I said our conversation would have to be our little secret because my key worker says I am not allowed to speak to girls.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Lighter Date: 20 Sep 14 - 08:04 PM > expansion of a point source of infinite density Part of the difficulty is that such a thing is so unlike anything we're used to, all analogies and inferences break down. Quantum mechanics, which has been verified by experiment, is just as bizarre. But none of these things - and others that are almost sure to be encountered in the future - leads to the conclusion that it was all put in motion by a personal, ultraconscious force that has any interest in human welfare. All the reliable evidence is to the contrary. The burden of proof is on those who say they that these scientific and practical observations are wrong, or add up instead to something in the bible. (And why are Buddhism and Hinduism and Zoroastrianism and Greek paganism ruled out of the running?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: DMcG Date: 21 Sep 14 - 02:48 AM Intelligence can be used to construct clever, convoluted defenses of non-scientific concepts. You can read that as implying that everything can potentially be explained using scientific concepts. I don't, of course, mean we could do so today; I mean the assumption that it is inherently possible. But that seems to me roughly equivalent to the belief [and I use the word with trepidation!] that everything could be understood through the laws of mechanics as a 'clockwork universe', a view that the whole of science pretty much accepted before the discovery of radioactivity started us down the path of things being rather more complicated than that. On this question I am agnostic: I do not know whether science is potentially capable of explaining everything or not. But on balance, despite sciences tremendous powers of explanation, I suspect not. None of which should lead us to assume a book written so long ago can do so. Now, I think it entirely proper to use our intelligence to construct models, explanations and interpretations of things that are either currently or perhaps eternally beyond science. Philosophy, for example, is a good discipline for working with uncertainties of that type. Bill is however completely right in declaring we should not be using our intelligence to assert such models as correct in the light of evidence which demonstrates they cannot be valid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Stu Date: 21 Sep 14 - 07:19 AM ". . . and if nothing else it gives the opportunity to express kindness, care, and active love for others." These values are certainly not exclusive to any religion, they are important to any half-decent person regardless if they have faith or not. I believe people are good at heart; our primate instincts are a fine balance of close social and family bonding and often brutal violence and we've developed societies that can keep a lid on the worst excesses, channeling our more belligerent instincts into sports etc. At the end of the day, compassion for all living beings is the the best we as individuals can achieve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Lighter Date: 21 Sep 14 - 07:32 AM > I believe people are good at heart; our primate instincts are a fine balance of close social and family bonding and often brutal violence I detect a contradiction. People have both kind and brutal tendencies. The fact that most societies encourage the kind ones and discourage the others suggests that "goodness" may outweigh "badness," but that still leaves the bad to be pretty damned bad. Consider Nazis, ISIS, Assyrians, Soviet and Maoist Communism.... Everyone involved in these groups grew up in an orderly and presumably "nurturing" society. And let's not even mention warfare, which might be nonexistent if humans were good at heart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Sep 14 - 12:10 PM Troll? pete doesn't troll. unlike Mr Shaw he is not abusive, he makes an effort to discuss the topic and he shows respect for those with whom they differ. He isn't abusive and he tr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 21 Sep 14 - 12:27 PM There are distinct differences in some posts supposedly by Pete. Some are by "pete from seven stars link" and some by "Pete from seven stars"... and one I found by "Peter from seven stars." I wish for clarification, as 'my' *pete* is pretty consistent in his writing style. *Pete* uses the shift key..... An obvious need for membership........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Greg F. Date: 21 Sep 14 - 03:48 PM pete doesn't troll He just bullshits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,This is Pete on the I pad Date: 21 Sep 14 - 05:20 PM And the I pad automatically capitalises. I also have to write out my handle on it. Mostly, at home I use laptop. Sometimes explanations supposedly arrived at from evidence can be diverse......and totally wrong! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 21 Sep 14 - 06:11 PM "Sometimes explanations supposedly arrived at from evidence can be diverse......and totally wrong!" Possibly, but so what? And going back to your previous post: "And there's a lot of well paid jobs.....probably much more than most clerics earn.....that might just sway reasoning." Oh, right, so we're back to that extraordinary suspicion of yours that the evolutionary biology departments of the world's universities are teeming with closet creationists who go along with scientific orthodoxy in order to protect their well paid jobs! Amazing!! In more ways than one! You really do think that modern science is a vast, anti-christian conspiracy, don't you, pete? Come on, why don't you admit it? Or is that thought too ridiculous, even for you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Musket Date: 22 Sep 14 - 03:15 AM Don't hold your breath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Sep 14 - 03:02 PM well shimrod, you certainly demonstrate the evolutionist tactic of finding something that is true , and then inflating it to mean far, far more than the original data denotes !. nice of you to demonstrate my point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 22 Sep 14 - 05:40 PM " and then inflating it to mean far, far more than the original data denotes !" Like interpretations of translations of Genesis? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Lighter Date: 22 Sep 14 - 05:46 PM Don't you mean, "interpretations of different translations of a traditionally handed-down version of Genesis"? People can't even agree on the meaning of the Sixth Commandment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 22 Sep 14 - 05:50 PM " ... you certainly demonstrate the evolutionist tactic of finding something that is true , and then inflating it to mean far, far more than the original data denotes !" What, exactly, have I "inflated", pete? I'm not clear ... ? And, oh yes, there's no such thing as an "evolutionist". How many more times? And do you believe that modern science is a vast, anti-christian conspiracy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Sep 14 - 08:47 PM Yeah, Wacko. Utterly naive. You wouldn't recognise a troll if it reared up, bit you on your big fat sailor's bottom and shouted "I'm a troll and I have here a mouthful of Wacko's arse for supper!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Musket Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:28 AM One bite at a time, sweet Jesus! That's all I'm going to get through All together now! Perhaps any real Christians on this thread can confirm whether they see science as a cult with predetermined stances to defend against other cults? Or is just pete bastardising religion through ignorance and causing embarrassment for real Christians? (Notwithstanding the shaky tenets it stands on to begin with) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 Sep 14 - 06:38 AM No such thing as Evolutionist, but there is - gulp! - Scientism... Naturally Carl Sagan's one it's greatest demons: http://www.bestbiblescience.org/sagan.htm Here he is on evolution. Soul stirring stuff - supposing Christians ever had such a thing as a soul, which I sorely, and sadly, must doubt... Evolution is a Fact, not a Theory. IT REALLY HAPPENED |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: DMcG Date: 23 Sep 14 - 07:16 AM Perhaps any real Christians on this thread can confirm whether they see science as a cult with predetermined stances to defend against other cults I consider myself as real as Christian as any (but of course, other sects don't agree!) I assert science is *not* a cult with a predetermined stance, etc, etc. Glad to be of help! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Musket Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM So pete falls at the first hurdle... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Bill D Date: 23 Sep 14 - 11:37 AM "No such thing as Evolutionist, but there is - gulp! - Scientism" wow... so maybe I'm a Scientisimist! Gotta look THAT up: back- 30 seconds later: I thought I was being funny, but no.... http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/25/i-myself-am-a-scientismist/ and many other uses, says Google. Humpty-Dumpty was right! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Greg F. Date: 23 Sep 14 - 12:10 PM Just so long as you're not a Scientologist.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 23 Sep 14 - 12:54 PM well bill, you are correct that interpretations of genesis go far beyond the data. the reading of genesis is fairly straightforward, esp ch 1. but in an effort to fall in with supposed science, the gap theory, framework hypothesis and theistic evolution have arisen. only the first, can be at all supported theologically, but far from airtight, imo. the others read ideas into the text that were never read before in the narrative. "....translations..." ? .is that relevant ?. my information is that Hebrew scholars whether conservative or liberal, are agreed that the author[s] intended the narrative to be read as 6 normal length days of creation. shimrod,- it is true that I said that evolutionism is the reigning paradigm, and that there are a lot of well paid jobs depending on that dogma being accepted. I did not say there was an organized conspiracy involving all of science. you took something that was true [ ie what I said] and exaggerated my words. in the same way, evolutionists extrapolate beyond the data, from observing natural selection, and mutations ,that pondscum can turn into people . of course the changes are so miniscule over countless aeons that it cant be seen , and so the lacking of evidence becomes the evidence, it would seem !. of course there is something called an evolutionist, just like there is such a thing as a creationist. you are of the first, and I of the second. opposing positions on origins. whats your problem ?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Greg F. Date: 23 Sep 14 - 01:33 PM Time to start a new thread, methinks, on "The Theory Of Gravity" where we can discuss Gravitationists & Anti-Gravitationists. Or possibly one on "The Theory Of Heliocentrism"..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: GUEST,sciencegeek Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM poor pete finds the evolutionary theory so threatening to his belief in the absolute accuracy and truth of his particular version of Genesis that he can't agree to disagree but feels compelled to argue his case... using examples that he gleans from like minded sources. to be honest... he is more in danger from random acts of violence conducted by individuals who literally hate any and all christians, along with non christians who seem to be guilty by association. Or has he been so absorbed in his creationist tracts that he has missed the latest threats from the most current batch of rabid zealots... why not rain on their parade? regale them with those pesky ten commandments... or the parables of Jesus of Nazareth. for all his conspiracy theory regarding "evolutionists"... there hasn't been a single bombing or beheading attributed to those of us who support evolutionary theory... we don't even stage riots outside the doors of creationist offices. pretty boring folks if you ask me.. we just support open investigation and disclosure of information, regardless of who finds it offensive to their beliefs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:22 PM Hmmm, I said something pithy last night that seems to have vanished into the ether... Why can't the faithful agree with science and just have faith that deity made it look that way? In other news, I've possibly decided, now that Neil deGrasse Tyson has kind of screwed down the coffin lid on the word atheist that I've been trying to take the hoodoo off of for over 20 years now, to start calling our side the naturalists. That way we have the unmarked term and people of faith can be the supernaturalists. What do y'all think about that, while you aren't straw manning and ad hominemming each other? |